Anti-vaxxers

blanch152

Graces7 wrote: »

CFS/ME is NOT a "symptom of adolescence"

It is often triggered by vaccines.

It is incurable, untreatable and disabling

Rubbish, pure rubbish. ME is not "often triggered by vaccines".

What a ridiculously scaremongering statement.

rawn

Graces7 wrote:

It is often triggered by vaccines.

Source?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Had my flu shot yesterday, woke up this morning with webbed feet, a hunchback, autism and cross eyes.. I should have listened to the anti-vaxxer' nutjobs.

I've also been prescribed Lipitor for cholesterol this week, apparently big pharma is out to kill me with poison's.

banie01

Graces7 wrote: »

CFS/ME is NOT a "symptom of adolescence"

It is often triggered by vaccines.

It is incurable, untreatable and disabling

Again I find myself with my head in my hands, wondering how someone with such a poor grasp of science as yourself can make grandiose pronouncements based on nothing?

Your previous contributions to this thread have consisted of posts very similar to the above, with absolutely no factual basis.
You drop a claim, then mumble about your issues and damage and then leave!

As oppossed to actually substantiating your BS!

The number of people harmed by a reaction to a vaccine is statistically miniscule compared to the number of doses given, even with the pandremix vaccine which is acknowledged to have had an adverse on a number of people.
That number equates to an approximate 1 extra adverse reaction per 100,000 people vaccinated.

It asserts that the rate of narcolepsy in the unvaccinated population is 5.0 per 100,000 and that the rate of prevalence in the vaccinated population for the queried period is 5.8 per 100,000.That does appear to be a statistically significant anamoly.

I would be at odds however with the reports assertion that vaccination with pandremix results in a 13 fold greater risk of narcolepsy.
It is dressing the statistics to show the absolute worst. A clear example of utilising statistics in a poor and inconsistent manner.
I don't have time to run through the math fully as yet but I would be dubious as to whether the increase in incidence falls outside of the standard deviation.

In an earlier post I broke out the numbers so that it was more easily understood what the actual effect was, rather than the %'s.

Any medical intervention carries a risk, anyone who has suffered from a confirmed vaccine injury is of course a tragedy.
But that risk is statistically tiny, that doesn't lessen the impact on the person affected or their family, but it is part of the price to be paid to ensure the general health of the population.

banie01

Drake Fit Harvest wrote: »

Had my flu shot yesterday, woke up this morning with webbed feet, a hunchback, autism and cross eyes.. I should have listened to the anti-vaxxer' nutjobs.

I've also been prescribed Lipitor for cholesterol this week, apparently big pharma is out to kill me with poison's.

I'm in for mine on Monday, fingers crossed this time I get Hyper-Gonadism!

arybvtcw0eolkf

banie01 wrote: »

I'm in for mine on Monday, fingers crossed this time I get Hyper-Gonadism!

Whenever genitalia is mentioned here the usual response is 'Pix or it never happened', but this time you can ram it :eek:

batgoat

Graces7 wrote: »

CFS/ME is NOT a "symptom of adolescence"

It is often triggered by vaccines.

It is incurable, untreatable and disabling

The first symptoms of CFS tend to occur in teens. So the assumption that it's caused by hpv vaccine is because its administered at same point. From what I've seen, the occurrence rate of CFS is no different between those who are and aren't vaccinated. (they've been posted in this thread). So nope, not caused by vaccines.

Dr Brown

VicMackey1 wrote: »

I like how Dr Brown tries to add weight to his/her argument by telling us that the article is written by a doctor but then refuses to listen to almost every other doctor, including many leading doctors.

Are you talking about the very same leading Doctors who have a direct financial relationship with the company who make the Vaccine ?


I'm sorry but anyone who is getting money from the manufacturer of Vaccine is not very credible.


Profit making companies are not paying Doctors out of charity.

dexter_morgan

banie01 wrote: »

The number of people harmed by a reaction to a vaccine is statistically miniscule compared to the number of doses given, even with the pandremix vaccine which is acknowledged to have had an adverse on a number of people.
That number equates to an approximate 1 extra adverse reaction per 100,000 people vaccinated.



In an earlier post I broke out the numbers so that it was more easily understood what the actual effect was, rather than the %'s.

Maybe I'm missing something but I was reading that hpsc report and noticed that the incidence among non vaccinated was 0.5 per 100,000. At 5.8 per 100,000 that would be a huge increase and certainly point to a problem.

Beginning of page 5 of the report.....
"Based on the first contact with health care because of narcolepsy symptoms, the
incidence of narcolepsy during the primary follow‐up time (01/04/2009 to 31/12/2010) was
5.8 [95% CI: 3.5‐9.0] per 100,000 person years in the vaccinated and 0.5 [95% CI: 0.2‐1.0] per
100,000 person years in the unvaccinated individuals. There was a significant 13‐fold higher risk of narcolepsy in vaccinated compared to unvaccinated individuals and the absolute increased risk associated with the vaccine was five narcolepsy cases per 100,000 vaccinated children and adolescents. These results are similar to those found in Finland and other Scandinavian countries such as Sweden and Norway."

batgoat

Dr Brown wrote: »

Are you talking about the very same leading Doctors who have a direct financial relationship with the company who make the Vaccine ?


I'm sorry but anyone who is getting money from the manufacturer of Vaccine is not very credible.


Profit making companies are not paying Doctors out of charity.

You really claiming that the majority of general practitioners(plus all the other medical experts that back it) in the country are being paid off by big pharma? One of the exceptions to this is a man heavily involved with Regret who label him as 'leading', the same group that that use Gary Null, a conspiracy radio hosts with outlandish views as a citation....

I'm sure you can link the vaccine stuff to your other pretty dodgy views too.. :rolleyes:

ancapailldorcha

Dr Brown wrote: »

Are you talking about the very same leading Doctors who have a direct financial relationship with the company who make the Vaccine ?


I'm sorry but anyone who is getting money from the manufacturer of Vaccine is not very credible.


Profit making companies are not paying Doctors out of charity.

You've just gone and moved the goalposts.

What about Doctors like Wakefield who make a fortune peddling nonsense to anti-vaxxers? Or is that just fine because it suits your confirmation bias?

Dr Brown

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You've just gone and moved the goalposts.

How for pointing out a conflict of interest.

What about Doctors like Wakefield who make a fortune peddling nonsense to anti-vaxxers? Or is that just fine because it suits your confirmation bias?

How did Wakefield make a fortune ? He lost is career because he refused to back down.


He could of just said he made a mistake and gone back to working in the royal free.

ancapailldorcha

Unless you can prove that everyone who's performed research on vaccines has taken kickbacks from Big Pharma then you have no point?

Wakefield is a multi-millionaire and doesn't have to work for a living. I think it's worked out ok for him though thankfully he was struck off preventing him from abusing more children save for spreading an ideology that results in a few dying here and there.

Dr Brown

batgoat wrote: »

You really claiming that the majority of general practitioners(plus all the other medical experts that back it) in the country are being paid off by big pharma? One of the exceptions to this is a man heavily involved with Regret who label him as 'leading', the same group that that use Gary Null, a conspiracy radio hosts with outlandish views as a citation....

I'm sure you can link the vaccine stuff to your other pretty dodgy views too.. :rolleyes:

Pharma is not paying Doctors out of charity.


You would be naive in the extreme to think they are paying out money and not expecting anything back in return.

VicMackey1

Dr Brown wrote: »

Pharma is not paying Doctors out of charity.


You would be naive in the extreme to think they are paying out money and not expecting anything back in return.

How much is each doctor in Ireland getting from Pharma???

batgoat

Dr Brown wrote: »

Pharma is not paying Doctors out of charity.


You would be naive in the extreme to think they are paying out money and not expecting anything back in return.

So you have nothing but evil conspiracies, do you also subscribe to vaccines causing autism? Sounds like you do.. At least you don't seem to be trying to pretend your gp is a "leading gp" any more...

banie01

dexter_morgan wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something but I was reading that hpsc report and noticed that the incidence among non vaccinated was 0.5 per 100,000. At 5.8 per 100,000 that would be a huge increase and certainly point to a problem.

Beginning of page 5 of the report.....
"Based on the first contact with health care because of narcolepsy symptoms, the
incidence of narcolepsy during the primary follow‐up time (01/04/2009 to 31/12/2010) was
5.8 [95% CI: 3.5‐9.0] per 100,000 person years in the vaccinated and 0.5 [95% CI: 0.2‐1.0] per
100,000 person years in the unvaccinated individuals. There was a significant 13‐fold higher risk of narcolepsy in vaccinated compared to unvaccinated individuals and the absolute increased risk associated with the vaccine was five narcolepsy cases per 100,000 vaccinated children and adolescents. These results are similar to those found in Finland and other Scandinavian countries such as Sweden and Norway."

Will get back to you on this later as I'm on mobile at the mo.

The incidence in vaccinated versus unvaccinated for Pandremix is correct.
If memory serves, at the time I posted the original it was as a Pandremix versus A.N other vaccine and I need to dig out where I got the 5 per 100k rate as I don't recall immediately.

That said, there is no doubting that Pandremix is associated with a higher incidence of Narcolepsy versus unvaccinated population.

It is raising the incidence from 0.000005% in unvaccinated to 0.000058% which is significant in the Pandremix/Narcolepsy link.
But from the viewpoint of population health is quite small

Dr Brown

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Unless you can prove that everyone who's performed research on vaccines has taken kickbacks from Big Pharma then you have no point?

Wakefield is a multi-millionaire and doesn't have to work for a living. I think it's worked out ok for him though thankfully he was struck off preventing him from abusing more children save for spreading an ideology that results in a few dying here and there.

If Wakefield is so bad how come not one parent complained about him ?


Parents would be first to call out Wakefield if he was up to no good.


You seem to have bought into the media narrative that Wakefield is some sort of psychopath who was out to harm children.


http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/02/no-parent-ever-complained-to-gmc-public-statement-from-lancet-families-supports-the-mmr3.html

Dr Brown

VicMackey1 wrote: »

How much is each doctor in Ireland getting from Pharma???

You can check that here.


https://www.transferofvalue.ie/


It should be noted that most Irish Doctors were against this information been made public.

batgoat

Dr Brown wrote: »

If Wakefield is so bad how come not one parent complained about him ?


Parents would be first to call out Wakefield if he was up to no good.


You seem to have bought into the media narrative that Wakefield is some sort of psychopath who was out to harm children.


http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/02/no-parent-ever-complained-to-gmc-public-statement-from-lancet-families-supports-the-mmr3.html

So far your ability to find credible sources is severely lacking... You also seem to subscribe to vaccines causing autism. That is long debunked nonsense and the fact that some people seem to treat autism as some sort of illness is rather reprehensible.

If you're more concerned about developingt autism than your child dying from readily preventable illnesses, that's pretty disgraceful. In the case of Andrew Wakefield, he falsified data to create a link between autism and the mmr vaccine. In addition to this he had plans to profit on the back of his study. So yep he endangered lives and continues to.


http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/11/autism.vaccines/?hpt=Sbin

ancapailldorcha

Dr Brown wrote: »

If Wakefield is so bad how come not one parent complained about him ?


Parents would be first to call out Wakefield if he was up to no good.


You seem to have bought into the media narrative that Wakefield is some sort of psychopath who was out to harm children.


http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/02/no-parent-ever-complained-to-gmc-public-statement-from-lancet-families-supports-the-mmr3.html

Performing superfluous lumbar punctures on children to undermine a competing patent constitutes child abuse IMO.

VicMackey1

Dr Brown wrote: »

You can check that here.


https://www.transferofvalue.ie/


It should be noted that most Irish Doctors were against this information been made public.

My GP is not on there!! Nor are any of his colleagues. Have you actually looked at the values on there? They are tiny! Do you have any idea how much doctors in Ireland earn? GSK paying a hospital a few thousand is not going to buy the silence of many consultants! You really are away with the fairies, aren't you?

batgoat

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Performing superfluous lumbar punctures on children to undermine a competing patent constitutes child abuse IMO.

This is the thing that gets me. The likes of Regret cite some real doctors but many aren't, Eg Null is a Naturopath. Outside of majority of citations not being peer reviewed, a large number of them have engaged in pretty unethical behaviour. Eg the Null guy ended up hospitalising people because of his dodgy supplements. These are the dangerous morons that they're picking as credible.

ancapailldorcha

batgoat wrote: »

This is the thing that gets me. The likes of Regret cite some real doctors but many aren't, Eg Null is a Naturopath. Outside of majority of citations not being peer reviewed, a large number of them have engaged in pretty unethical behaviour. Eg the Null guy ended up hospitalising people because of his dodgy supplements. These are the dangerous morons that they're picking as credible.

I wonder how they would feel about Wakefield's competitor to the MMR vaccine which is what drove him to discredit himself in the first place.

batgoat

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I wonder how they would feel about Wakefield's competitor to the MMR vaccine which is what drove him to discredit himself in the first place.

He's going to gloss over it all. Sure, he's got the nation's leading gp that nobody has heard of.

endacl

rawn wrote: »

Source?

One of her cats told her. On the island.

Walter Bishop

Dr Brown wrote: »

It should be noted that most Irish Doctors were against this information been made public.

Source?

blanch152

banie01 wrote: »

Will get back to you on this later as I'm on mobile at the mo.

The incidence in vaccinated versus unvaccinated for Pandremix is correct.
If memory serves, at the time I posted the original it was as a Pandremix versus A.N other vaccine and I need to dig out where I got the 5 per 100k rate as I don't recall immediately.

That said, there is no doubting that Pandremix is associated with a higher incidence of Narcolepsy versus unvaccinated population.

It is raising the incidence from 0.000005% in unvaccinated to 0.000058% which is significant in the Pandremix/Narcolepsy link.
But from the viewpoint of population health is quite small

It is a bit like concluding that the risk from getting killed by debris falling from space is greater for swimmers than for non-swimmers. Statistically significantly different at a micro unsignificant level.

VicMackey1

blanch152 wrote: »

It is a bit like concluding that the risk from getting killed by debris falling from space is greater for swimmers than for non-swimmers. Statistically significantly different at a micro unsignificant level.

Yes, either way, the risk is tiny but that is not the point. The difference between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups does suggest a link however. The injuries that may have been caused by the vaccine make no difference in the overall scheme but that small statistical difference plays a huge part when it comes to receiving supports for those affected.

Igotadose

Dr Brown wrote: »

How did Wakefield make a fortune ? He lost is career because he refused to back down.


He could of just said he made a mistake and gone back to working in the royal free.

Wakefield's moved to the US and makes a fortune peddling his garbage to the gullible there. He lost his UK medical licenses because he was a fraud. He was backed, in the UK, by lawyers looking to sue vaccine manufacturers. He created businesses around his false data and his own vaccine "strategy".

The Royal Free offered him 2 years to replicate his results, which he did not do, as they weren't replicable, they. were. false.
Just made a mistake? Like, oopsies, I transposed a + with a minus and created the anti-vax movement?

Really, that's your argument in his defense?


https://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5258

gctest50

Dr Brown wrote: »

.........................

He could of just said he made a mistake and gone back to working in the royal free.

That's a part of the science thing in nutshell


Science <

---

> Loopers

Oh,we <

---

> NO NO NO we right
were wrong


except of course he was a fraud to start with

Unigenetics Ltd (Unigenetics) Laboratory in Dublin

Ceased trading in ~ 2005

One of the principals of the company was Dr John James O’Leary, who was associated with Trinity College and the Coombe Women’s Hospital, Dublin.

The 11 authors, one of whom was Dr O’Leary, reported that they found measles RNA in the samples of the large majority of the developmentally disabled children, but only in a few of the developmentally normal children. They concluded that their results raised an important question, namely, does MV [measles virus] play an aetiological role in intestinal inflammation in developmental disorder?

Dr Stephen Bustin, a PhD molecular biologist found that the laboratory obtained positive results for their negative controls in approximately one third of the testing procedures.

rawn

Dr Brown wrote: »

If Wakefield is so bad how come not one parent complained about him ?


Parents would be first to call out Wakefield if he was up to no good.


You seem to have bought into the media narrative that Wakefield is some sort of psychopath who was out to harm children.


http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/02/no-parent-ever-complained-to-gmc-public-statement-from-lancet-families-supports-the-mmr3.html

https://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347

blanch152

VicMackey1 wrote: »

Yes, either way, the risk is tiny but that is not the point. The difference between the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups does suggest a link however. The injuries that may have been caused by the vaccine make no difference in the overall scheme but that small statistical difference plays a huge part when it comes to receiving supports for those affected.

When you are eliminating a much greater and much more statistically significant disease of cervical cancer (and now it seems penile and anal cancer are linked as well) the HPV vaccine is one of the biggest no-brainers ever. Up there with the smallpox and polio vaccines.

blanch152

rawn wrote: »

https://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347

You are talking to anti-vaxxers. The truth is rare.

VicMackey1

blanch152 wrote: »

When you are eliminating a much greater and much more statistically significant disease of cervical cancer (and now it seems penile and anal cancer are linked as well) the HPV vaccine is one of the biggest no-brainers ever. Up there with the smallpox and polio vaccines.

I agree that the HPV vaccine is a no-brainer and if you look at my previous posts, you will see that I am 100% in favor of it. I was referring to the Pandemrix vaccine though.

rawn

blanch152 wrote:

You are talking to anti-vaxxers. The truth is rare.

The sad thing is they read one antivax article and take it as gospel, but refuse to even read provax articles in case it proves them wrong. I read both sides and one side had truth and science, the other has bull**** and scaremongering.

sullivlo

Graces7 wrote: »

CFS/ME is NOT a "symptom of adolescence"

It is often triggered by vaccines.

It is incurable, untreatable and disabling

rawn wrote: »

Source?

Don’t bother. Grace doesn’t answer questions.

Dr Brown

VicMackey1 wrote: »

My GP is not on there!! Nor are any of his colleagues. Have you actually looked at the values on there? They are tiny! Do you have any idea how much doctors in Ireland earn? GSK paying a hospital a few thousand is not going to buy the silence of many consultants! You really are away with the fairies, aren't you?

They may start off on small money buy if they play their cards right they can get ALOT more.


https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/giant-drug-firms-paying-salaries-of-two-hospital-doctors-30916060.html


Your away with the fairies if you think for Profit companies are paying Doctors and expect nothing back in return.



Why is it that almost all the Doctors who shout loudest about the HPV Vaccine have financial ties to the manufacturer of Vaccine ?

Dr Brown

Igotadose wrote: »

Wakefield's moved to the US and makes a fortune peddling his garbage to the gullible there. He lost his UK medical licenses because he was a fraud. He was backed, in the UK, by lawyers looking to sue vaccine manufacturers. He created businesses around his false data and his own vaccine "strategy".

The Royal Free offered him 2 years to replicate his results, which he did not do, as they weren't replicable, they. were. false.
Just made a mistake? Like, oopsies, I transposed a + with a minus and created the anti-vax movement?

Really, that's your argument in his defense?


https://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5258

He was never charged with fraud that's just BS put out by brain deer.


They took his license away for ethical reasons.

Its funny that his colleague Dr John Walker-Smith who faced the same charges got his medical license back after he appealed to the high court.

You never hear that in the media.

batgoat

Dr Brown wrote: »

He was never charged with fraud that's just BS put out by brain deer.


They took his license away for ethical reasons.

Its funny that his colleague Dr John Walker-Smith who faced the same charges got his medical license back after he appealed to the high court.

You never hear that in the media.

You seem to be ignoring the considerable amount of evidence against him... It's almost as if you support him because he agrees with your nonsense conspiracy.

Dr Brown

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I wonder how they would feel about Wakefield's competitor to the MMR vaccine which is what drove him to discredit himself in the first place.

The "competitor" Vaccine would of belonged to the royal free hospital not Wakefield.

Dr Brown

batgoat wrote: »

You seem to be ignoring the considerable amount of evidence against him... It's almost as if you support him because he agrees with your nonsense conspiracy.

Most if not all the "evidence" against him comes from just one man Brian Deer.

Why is that parents never spoke out against Wakefield if he was harming children ?

Igotadose

Dr Brown wrote: »

He was never charged with fraud that's just BS put out by brain deer.


They took his license away for ethical reasons.

Its funny that his colleague Dr John Walker-Smith who faced the same charges got his medical license back after he appealed to the high court.

You never hear that in the media.

Simplifying what I said: I said he *was* a fraud, not that he was *charged* with fraud. And, as you pointed out, he was *unethical*. That's what it means to lose your license 'for ethical reasons.' The Royal Free offered him a chance to replicate his result, and *he didn't*. Replication of results is basic science.

Let's be real - Wakefield is a con artist, he conned the Royal Free first, and it took some time but he was found out and barred from the practice of medicine. He's now in the US perpetuation the same con.

Dr Brown

Igotadose wrote: »

Simplifying what I said: I said he *was* a fraud, not that he was *charged* with fraud. And, as you pointed out, he was *unethical*. That's what it means to lose your license 'for ethical reasons.' The Royal Free offered him a chance to replicate his result, and *he didn't*. Replication of results is basic science.

Let's be real - Wakefield is a con artist, he conned the Royal Free first, and it took some time but he was found out and barred from the practice of medicine. He's now in the US perpetuation the same con.

The medical council trial against Wakefield and Dr John Walker-Smith was a farce they were accused of harming children by Brian Deer yet not one parent made an official compliant them.

When Dr John Walker-Smith appealed to a real court he was given his medical license back and was completely vindicated.

That's one small detail that media conveniently leave out in this story.

ancapailldorcha

Dr Brown wrote: »

Most if not all the "evidence" against him comes from just one man Brian Deer.

Why is that parents never spoke out against Wakefield if he was harming children ?

Probably because they thought it was legitimate research. It's cute that you place the word evidence in inverted commas since you produce none yourself.

Here's the patent for you to ignore.

pjohnson

Oooh goody a conspiracy theorist is loose in AH. I've catching up to do.

Dr Brown

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Probably because they thought it was legitimate research. It's cute that you place the word evidence in inverted commas since you produce none yourself.

Here's the patent for you to ignore.

I never said there was no patent.


That's neither here nor there

Dr Brown

Dr Brown wrote: »

I never said there was no patent.


That's neither here nor there

Keep beating your narrative into the ground, it will never draw credibility.

rawn

Dr Brown wrote: »

The medical council trial against Wakefield and Dr John Walker-Smith was a farce they were accused of harming children by Brian Deer yet not one parent made an official compliant them.

When Dr John Walker-Smith appealed to a real court he was given his medical license back and was completely vindicated.

That's one small detail that media conveniently leave out in this story.

The former head of department at the Royal Free Hospital in north London lost his licence to practise in May 2010, along with Dr Andrew Wakefield.
A GMC panel found both guilty of misconduct over the way research into autism and bowel disease was conducted.
A third doctor, Prof Simon Murch, then a junior consultant in the department, was cleared.
The disciplinary case against the doctors centred on how they conducted their work.
The judge said the GMC panel failed to address whether Prof Walker-Smith had been doing research or simply investigating symptoms to help treat children. There had been "inadequate and superficial reasoning and, in a number of instances, a wrong conclusion", he said.
The GMC said reforms to disciplinary hearings were being considered.
Chief executive Niall Dickson added: "Today's ruling does not however reopen the debate about the MMR vaccine and autism.
"As Mr Justice Mitting observed in his judgement, 'There is now no respectable body of opinion which supports (Dr Wakefield's) hypothesis, that MMR vaccine and autism/enterocolitis are causally linked'.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-17283751

ancapailldorcha

Dr Brown wrote: »

I never said there was no patent.


That's neither here nor there

Of course it is and it is in Wakefield's name. It shows that his motive was and continues to be base greed.