Anti-vaxxers

manonboard

nthclare wrote: »

This year's flu is going to be one of the worst ever.

Just curious. Why do you think that?
This will be first year getting vaccine for flu as I have asthma now

eagle eye

ancapailldorcha wrote:

So we should trust internet soccer moms instead?

I didn't say that.
Personally I don't get flu shots or any of that stuff but my son has all his immunisation up to date.
I'm not saying that they are right nit to get the shots. The issue is that these companies have the reputation that they will do anything for a buck. This is where the breakdown occurs. If you don't trust these big corporations then all it takes is one doctor telling you they are not necessary and you are fully on board the train.
I'm not talking about myself here, I just understand that it's easy for a lot of parents to be swayed.

Grayson

eagle eye wrote: »

This is not accurate.
The trustworthiness of the companies telling people they need this stuff is a huge part of things.
We all know how important profit is to these large drug manufacturers, it's hard to trust them when money is their sole purpose for being in business.

You might not trust a drug company, but how about all the doctors in the world.

eagle eye

Grayson wrote:

You might no trust a drug company, but how about all the doctors in the world.

You need to read my post again.
Firstly you seem to be directing this at me. I just told you that my son's immunisation schedule is up to date.
Secondly I'm not talking about myself, I'm just understanding how easy it is for some people to be swayed.
Large drug companies have a bad name. They need to work to solve that.

Graces7

Grayson wrote: »

You might not trust a drug company, but how about all the doctors in the world.

you mean as in trust the drs....???? noooooooooooooooooo

jh79

Graces7 wrote: »

you mean as in trust the drs....???? noooooooooooooooooo

So where do you get medical advice from?

batgoat

eagle eye wrote: »

This is not accurate.
The trustworthiness of the companies telling people they need this stuff is a huge part of things.
We all know how important profit is to these large drug manufacturers, it's hard to trust them when money is their sole purpose for being in business.

It's not accurate. Eg a seatbelt won't prevent a carcrash. It's more akin to every car becoming able to avoid car crashes entirely. Eg the hpv vaccine looks likely to have eradicated cervical cancer in Australia. If we had full uptake of the MMR vaccine, that could eradicate the associated illnesses in a decade or two. It would simply cease to be necessary to receive it any more as it would no longer exist.

So you can go for the big pharma conspiracies on it but it ignores international efforts to investigate all reported negative effects from vaccines. Their safety is looked into and we can categorically say, any risk is greatly outweighed by the long term benefit.

Eirpod99

Graces7 wrote: »

you mean as in trust the drs....???? noooooooooooooooooo

What an idiotic post.

sullivlo

jh79 wrote: »

So where do you get medical advice from?

The voices in her head
God.

Wanderer41

Graces7 wrote: »

you mean as in trust the drs....???? noooooooooooooooooo

Yes, actually, I would trust the professionals who actually know what they're talking about instead of spouting absolute rubbish. You said above that you are better read that many people here. I have a medical background and can assure you I have done my research. Perhaps next time you want to spread these false claims that actually put people's lives at risk you could actually read some evidence-based medicine and not some ridiculous website with absolutely no evidence?

banie01

sullivlo wrote: »

The voices in her head
God.

I had a very similar response typed up, maybe in a more direct vein...
But that particular poster isn't worth the ban I'd incur.

Floppybits

Anti vaxxers are a dangerous shower of hob goblins. They will be sorry when they get a dose of the pox.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

banie01 wrote: »

I had a very similar response typed up, maybe in a more direct vein...
But that particular poster isn't worth the ban I'd incur.

Same here, I just can't afford to post the reply I feel is needed.

Trawling the Internet for support of an anti vaccine stance is bad enough but we can't just disregard the training and integrity of very doctor by simply making a sweeping statement. Of course there's always an element of good science and bad science in life but, thankfully, most good science is proven while the bad science still awaits anything resembling verification.

paw patrol

fxotoole wrote: »

That’s a fairly serious accusation.

If you have proof of drugs companies compromising the integrity of the HSE’s tendering process, I suggest you present your proof now, or withdraw your ridiculous accusation and apologise.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Since when is proof needed? Everyone knows "I'm a mother /parent and I know best" and anything read on "truther" sites can be taken as gospel.

I have no knowledge of the HSE top brass...but when I was a child by dad was a GP .
we were taken away on a weekend by a pharma company and my father was given hampers and similar at Christmas.
Perhaps this stuff doesn't happen anymore but it used too.

This type of bribery generousity happens throughout society...for example one I was involved with working in on of the main banks in the boom time, they brought journalists away for a 5 nations away game for the weekend on the piss prior to the launch of a new product and lo and behold - favourable reviews.

I also worked in the life assurance side of side bank and the brokers were treated to many a session.

It wasn't for charity or the lolz...I'll tell you that.

I have no proof but you'd be naïve in the extreme to think this doesn't happen on a high level within the civil service...

Sure wasn't Cowan out golfing with Anglo-man - that's well documented. Remember it's on record they discussed no business at all...:pac:

So you retort is either really naïve or snide in the extreme.

badtoro

Our lad is 10 months old, got all his shots thus far and will continue to do so. I wouldn't mind so much if these anti vax fools were risking their own lives but they're putting their kids in danger and others as well.

blanch152

paw patrol wrote: »

I have no knowledge of the HSE top brass...but when I was a child by dad was a GP .
we were taken away on a weekend by a pharma company and my father was given hampers and similar at Christmas.
Perhaps this stuff doesn't happen anymore but it used too.

This type of bribery generousity happens throughout society...for example one I was involved with working in on of the main banks in the boom time, they brought journalists away for a 5 nations away game for the weekend on the piss prior to the launch of a new product and lo and behold - favourable reviews.

I also worked in the life assurance side of side bank and the brokers were treated to many a session.

It wasn't for charity or the lolz...I'll tell you that.

I have no proof but you'd be naïve in the extreme to think this doesn't happen on a high level within the civil service...

Sure wasn't Cowan out golfing with Anglo-man - that's well documented. Remember it's on record they discussed no business at all...:pac:

So you retort is either really naïve or snide in the extreme.

You have no proof, that much is certain, but you still feel free to make all sorts of accusations. Have a read of these documents to see what is required of civil servants.


http://www.sipo.ie/en/Codes-of-Conduct/Civil-Servants/Civil-Service-Code-of-Standards.pdf


https://www.sipo.ie/en/Guidelines/Guidelines-for-Public-Servants/

endacl

jh79 wrote: »

So where do you get medical advice from?

The bees mostly. Sometimes her cat.

That’s why she always complains of being in a jocker and bows out of discussions when backed into a corner.

;D

blanch152

eagle eye wrote: »

You need to read my post again.
Firstly you seem to be directing this at me. I just told you that my son's immunisation schedule is up to date.
Secondly I'm not talking about myself, I'm just understanding how easy it is for some people to be swayed.
Large drug companies have a bad name. They need to work to solve that.

What you are saying is that people are gullible and will be taken in by non-medical opinion about Big Pharma and how a herbal drink will cure all ills and medicine and vaccine aren't needed.

Yes, we all know that some people are really as stupid and foolish as that, but those of us who work from an evidence-based perspective are 100% clear that vaccines are better than the alternative of the diseases.

rawn

paw patrol wrote: »

I have no knowledge of the HSE top brass...but when I was a child by dad was a GP .
we were taken away on a weekend by a pharma company and my father was given hampers and similar at Christmas.
Perhaps this stuff doesn't happen anymore but it used too.

This type of bribery generousity happens throughout society...for example one I was involved with working in on of the main banks in the boom time, they brought journalists away for a 5 nations away game for the weekend on the piss prior to the launch of a new product and lo and behold - favourable reviews.

I also worked in the life assurance side of side bank and the brokers were treated to many a session.

It wasn't for charity or the lolz...I'll tell you that.

I have no proof but you'd be naïve in the extreme to think this doesn't happen on a high level within the civil service...

Sure wasn't Cowan out golfing with Anglo-man - that's well documented. Remember it's on record they discussed no business at all...:pac:

So you retort is either really naïve or snide in the extreme.

OK

When I was a kid my family were taken on weekends away and given Christmas hampers by the local church. AM i now a sell-out for the church? No, I'm an atheist, as is every member of my family.

Just because people give you things does not make you their thrall.

eagle eye

blanch152 wrote:

Yes, we all know that some people are really as stupid and foolish as that, but those of us who work from an evidence-based perspective are 100% clear that vaccines are better than the alternative of the diseases.

And I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just pointing out how things work in the real world. You'll never get rid of those types of people.
Things happen like the super antibiotics that came out and then became a bad idea. The anti side will use stuff like that to advise against taking drugs.

paw patrol

blanch152 wrote: »

You have no proof, that much is certain, but you still feel free to make all sorts of accusations. Have a read of these documents to see what is required of civil servants.


http://www.sipo.ie/en/Codes-of-Conduct/Civil-Servants/Civil-Service-Code-of-Standards.pdf


https://www.sipo.ie/en/Guidelines/Guidelines-for-Public-Servants/

you misunderstood my post.
guidelines mehole….you think the top level government or civil service don't wine and dine pharma executives.. like Brian Cowans golf outing where "no business" was discussed.

Look at our former broadband hero denis naughten and he was cleared in the end of wrong doing.

Are you saying this happens in all walks of government except the HSE? come on ...

Igotadose

Measles on the uptick, of course, thanks to the anti-vax religion. https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/measles-vaccine-coverage-stagnant-increased-2017/#The_new_report_on_measles_and_vaccine_coverage

Basically, despite 21 *million* lives estimated to having been saved since 2001 by the measles vaccine, anti-vax lying and deceptiveness has caused the overall percentage immunized to flatline at 85% since 2010, 95% needed for herd immunity. 110,000 measles cases in 2017, y-o-y a 31% increase (30 dead in Europe in 2018.)

Good job, Andrew Wakefield! And his willing acolytes on FB and elsewhere.

blanch152

Igotadose wrote: »

Measles on the uptick, of course, thanks to the anti-vax religion. https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/measles-vaccine-coverage-stagnant-increased-2017/#The_new_report_on_measles_and_vaccine_coverage

Basically, despite 21 *million* lives estimated to having been saved since 2001 by the measles vaccine, anti-vax lying and deceptiveness has caused the overall percentage immunized to flatline at 85% since 2010, 95% needed for herd immunity. 110,000 measles cases in 2017, y-o-y a 31% increase (30 dead in Europe in 2018.)

Good job, Andrew Wakefield! And his willing acolytes on FB and elsewhere.

And don't forget some of the posters on this thread who support the nonsense of the anti-vaxxers.

cloudy90210

All anti-vaxxers should be arrested or worse, made sleep with Margaret cash

El Weirdo

paw patrol wrote: »

you misunderstood my post.
guidelines mehole….you think the top level government or civil service don't wine and dine pharma executives.. like Brian Cowans golf outing where "no business" was discussed.

Look at our former broadband hero denis naughten and he was cleared in the end of wrong doing.

Are you saying this happens in all walks of government except the HSE? come on ...

Not sure what benefit would come from civil servants wining and dining pharma executives. The other way round, maybe.

Anyway, I actually work in procurement for the HSE (although in equipment purchasing, not pharma) and actually know what is involved in the procurement processes. Your anecdote does not reflect any current reality.

Igotadose

blanch152 wrote: »

And don't forget some of the posters on this thread who support the nonsense of the anti-vaxxers.

Just more sheep feeding at the same trough, looking for excuses like 'my kydz autistic because of vaccines' while ignoring mental illness in their family and partner's family, ADD in both, etc.

Dan Jaman

El Weirdo wrote: »

Not sure what benefit would come from civil servants wining and dining pharma executives. The other way round, maybe.

Anyway, I actually work in procurement for the HSE (although in equipment purchasing, not pharma) and actually know what is involved in the procurement processes. Your anecdote does not reflect any current reality.

Where there's a brown envelope, there's a way.
Actually, I prefer an honest and open system, where gifts, holidays, cases of whiskey, foreign travel and golf club memberships are all on the table, so that everyone knows. No harm, no foul.
The father of a friend of mine worked as a development officer for one of the Scottish New Towns in the 60s and 70s. Bribery and backhanders from the big contractors was rife, but the development team took care of it in a simple way - they laid it all on the table between themselves, and shared out a lot of the more portable items to other members of the team.

All of them went on Florida golfing holidays, and all sorts of other good stuff, but it didn't make any difference to the ultimate decisions, which were based on merit and suitability for the task at hand. The contractors thought they were pretty smart, of course.

AndrewJRenko

We live in dangerous times

https://twitter.com/ChelseaClinton/status/1069936317633581059?s=19

skepticalme

More news from Italy. Composition of 6 in 1 Infanrix Hexa.

https://www.corvelva.it/speciali-corvelva/analisi/vaccingate-initial-results-on-infanrix-hexa-chemical-composition.html

In Infanrix Hexa we found

chemical contamination from the manufacturing process or cross-contamination with other manufacturing lines;chemical toxins;bacterial peptide toxins;insoluble and indigestible macromolecule that reacts to the protein assay, but cannot be recognized by any protein databases.

We have not found:

Protein antigens of diphtheria toxoids, tetanus, pertussis, hepatitis B, haemophylus influenzae B, Poliomyelitis 1-2-3;Formaldehyde and glutaraldehyde, phenoxyethanol, antibiotic residues indicated in the composition;

All risk, no benefit.

Igotadose

skepticalme wrote: »

More news from Italy. Composition of 6 in 1 Infanrix Hexa.

https://www.corvelva.it/speciali-corvelva/analisi/vaccingate-initial-results-on-infanrix-hexa-chemical-composition.html

In Infanrix Hexa we found

chemical contamination from the manufacturing process or cross-contamination with other manufacturing lines;chemical toxins;bacterial peptide toxins;insoluble and indigestible macromolecule that reacts to the protein assay, but cannot be recognized by any protein databases.

We have not found:

Protein antigens of diphtheria toxoids, tetanus, pertussis, hepatitis B, haemophylus influenzae B, Poliomyelitis 1-2-3;Formaldehyde and glutaraldehyde, phenoxyethanol, antibiotic residues indicated in the composition;

All risk, no benefit.

Ohh... An *italian* anti-vax site! That makes it all true!

FWIW, didn't the Italian Government just fire all the accredited scientists from its medical oversight board and replaced them with anti-vax cranks? http://time.com/5360823/italy-anti-vaccine/

ohnonotgmail

skepticalme wrote: »

More news from Italy. Composition of 6 in 1 Infanrix Hexa.

https://www.corvelva.it/speciali-corvelva/analisi/vaccingate-initial-results-on-infanrix-hexa-chemical-composition.html

In Infanrix Hexa we found

chemical contamination from the manufacturing process or cross-contamination with other manufacturing lines;chemical toxins;bacterial peptide toxins;insoluble and indigestible macromolecule that reacts to the protein assay, but cannot be recognized by any protein databases.

We have not found:

Protein antigens of diphtheria toxoids, tetanus, pertussis, hepatitis B, haemophylus influenzae B, Poliomyelitis 1-2-3;Formaldehyde and glutaraldehyde, phenoxyethanol, antibiotic residues indicated in the composition;

All risk, no benefit.

So not an issue with vaccines but an issue with manufacturing that could affect any drug?

skepticalme

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So not an issue with vaccines but an issue with manufacturing that could affect any drug?

Did you read it?
No antigens present for any of the illnesses ."We have found instead a real polymer, insoluble and indigestible, that we supposed to be the set of antigens chemically bound together "
65 chemicals of which only 35% were identifiable.
3 injections of this muck are given to babies starting at 8 weeks old!

ancapailldorcha

skepticalme wrote: »

Did you read it?
No antigens present for any of the illnesses ."We have found instead a real polymer, insoluble and indigestible, that we supposed to be the set of antigens chemically bound together "
65 chemicals of which only 35% were identifiable.
3 injections of this muck are given to babies starting at 8 weeks old!

You say this like it's a regular occurrence. It's an isolated incident presented as a dump (pun intended) from an anti-vaxx site.

ohnonotgmail

skepticalme wrote: »

Did you read it?
No antigens present for any of the illnesses ."We have found instead a real polymer, insoluble and indigestible, that we supposed to be the set of antigens chemically bound together "
65 chemicals of which only 35% were identifiable.
3 injections of this muck are given to babies starting at 8 weeks old!

So you are claiming that they deliberately added these chemicals to a vaccine? To what end? what is the gain for them?

skepticalme

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You say this like it's a regular occurrence. It's an isolated incident presented as a dump (pun intended) from an anti-vaxx site.

Are you suggesting it's an isolated case?

ohnonotgmail

skepticalme wrote: »

Are you suggesting it's an isolated case?

are you suggesting it is not? that is what you seem to be doing.

skepticalme

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So you are claiming that they deliberately added these chemicals to a vaccine? To what end? what is the gain for them?

Not deliberate, just careless, , machines not cleaned properly for instance.
Do you not find it shocking the 'vaccine' had no antigens for the 6 illnesses it's supposed to prevent?

rawn

skepticalme wrote: »

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So not an issue with vaccines but an issue with manufacturing that could affect any drug?

Did you read it?
No antigens present for any of the illnesses ."We have found instead a real polymer, insoluble and indigestible, that we supposed to be the set of antigens chemically bound together "
65 chemicals of which only 35% were identifiable.
3 injections of this muck are given to babies starting at 8 weeks old!

But doesn't this prove what we've been saying this whole time? That vaccines ed are tested, retested and tested yet again and any faults are announced and the vaccine withdrawn immediately?

https://www.tga.gov.au/alert/infanrix-hexa-vaccine

ohnonotgmail

skepticalme wrote: »

Not deliberate, just careless, , machines not cleaned properly for instance.

So an isolated case then and nothing to do with vaccines specifically.

skepticalme wrote: »

Do you not find it shocking the 'vaccine' had no antigens for the 6 illnesses it's supposed to prevent?

I do but that is nothing to do with the efficacy of vaccines.

ancapailldorcha

skepticalme wrote: »

Are you suggesting it's an isolated case?

I stated that explicitly.

skepticalme

rawn wrote: »

But doesn't this prove what we've been saying this whole time? That vaccines ed are tested, retested and tested yet again and any faults are announced and the vaccine withdrawn immediately?

https://www.tga.gov.au/alert/infanrix-hexa-vaccine

So you're expecting Infanrix Hexa to be withdrawn?

skepticalme

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So an isolated case then and nothing to do with vaccines specifically.






I do but that is nothing to do with the efficacy of vaccines.

Can you explain this ?
The efficiacy of this particular vaccine is zero.

skepticalme

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I stated that explicitly.

So just this vial, this batch,this vaccine. How isolated?

ancapailldorcha

skepticalme wrote: »

So just this vial, this batch,this vaccine. How isolated?

I never said that. Mind you, I would need a hell of a lot more than an anti-vaxx link dump to concede that this even happened at all.

You're the one implying that this is regular so how regular is it?

rawn

skepticalme wrote: »

rawn wrote: »

But doesn't this prove what we've been saying this whole time? That vaccines ed are tested, retested and tested yet again and any faults are announced and the vaccine withdrawn immediately?

https://www.tga.gov.au/alert/infanrix-hexa-vaccine

So you're expecting Infanrix Hexa to be withdrawn?

The batches in question were withdrawn, yes.

rawn

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

skepticalme wrote: »

So just this vial, this batch,this vaccine. How isolated?

I never said that. Mind you, I would need a hell of a lot more than an anti-vaxx link dump to concede that this even happened at all.

You're the one implying that this is regular so how regular is it?

I can't find any other link to his claims. Funny, that.

ohnonotgmail

skepticalme wrote: »

Can you explain this ?
The efficiacy of this particular vaccine is zero.

vaccines in general. try to keep up.

skepticalme

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I never said that. Mind you, I would need a hell of a lot more than an anti-vaxx link dump to concede that this even happened at all.

You're the one implying that this is regular so how regular is it?

Post 1992! You stated explicitly that it was an isolated case!

skepticalme

rawn wrote: »

The batches in question were withdrawn, yes.

So you're expecting another withdrawal of Infanrix Hexa then.

skepticalme

rawn wrote: »

I can't find any other link to his claims. Funny, that.

The first report for the first of the vaccines was published only yesterday.