Anti-vaxxers

riclad · 20-01-2019 11:08pm

I think anyone who refuses to vaccinate their children should face a penalty , some countrys reduce welfare payments to
people who are anti vaxx ,who stop their chidren getting vaccine

maxwell smart · 20-01-2019 11:13pm

riclad wrote: »

I think anyone who refuses to vaccinate their children should face a penalty , some countrys reduce welfare payments to
people who are anti vaxx ,who stop their chidren getting vaccine

Seriously? Is that the sort of country you want to live in? Where the Government decides how you should raise your children?

All mine have been vaccinated but I certainly don't agree on forcing other people to do that. Sounds like a police state

Anthracite · 20-01-2019 11:15pm

maxwell smart wrote: »

Seriously? Is that the sort of country you want to live in? Where the Government decides how you should raise your children?

The freedom to swing your fist stops where my nose begins. If your non-immunised children pose a threat to children who can't be immunised or are immuno-compromised, they should not be allowed mix with them.

sullivlo · 20-01-2019 11:37pm

Anthracite wrote: »

The freedom to swing your fist stops where my nose begins. If your non-immunised children pose a threat to children who can't be immunised or are immuno-compromised, they should not be allowed mix with them.

Not just children who can’t be vaccinated/are immunocompromised. Think of all of the people who are on chemo who have no immune system. I can imagine little Tarquin going to visit Gramps and poor gramps ending up with pneumonia because Tarkie had the flu because mommy read a thing on Facebook.

mulbot · 21-01-2019 12:09am

sullivlo wrote: »

Not just children who can’t be vaccinated/are immunocompromised. Think of all of the people who are on chemo who have no immune system. I can imagine little Tarquin going to visit Gramps and poor gramps ending up with pneumonia because Tarkie had the flu because mommy read a thing on Facebook.

The flu vaccine is live, so technically anybody who has had a flu shot has to stay away from gramps.

sullivlo · 21-01-2019 12:36am

mulbot wrote: »

The flu vaccine is live, so technically anybody who has had a flu shot has to stay away from gramps.

Only for a day or two before the antibodies are produced.

Lantus · 21-01-2019 12:39am

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I think we call all agree that the pharmaceutical conglomerates have our best interests at heart

Yes in the sense that more people equals more potentially sick customers. Wiping out half the human race won't make them rich.

Giveaway · 21-01-2019 12:43am

mulbot wrote: »

The flu vaccine is live, so technically anybody who has had a flu shot has to stay away from gramps.

The flu vaccine is not a live vaccine. Please stop spreading misinformation

Dan Jaman · 21-01-2019 3:37am

I think it's worth bearing in mind the generations immediately post-war were the first to have universal vaccination offered to them, usually administered (at least, in the UK) at their schools, by the school nurse.
I'm of that generation, and though I was too young to realise it at the time, it since occurred to me that my parents (and the parents of all the other kids) were of a pre-war generation and could remember kids they were at school with who'd succumbed to various childhood diseases that were now being protected against.
It's hardly surprising it was taken up in huge numbers, because the adults then knew how beneficial it would be. I cannot recall any instance of non-vaccination on principle, but even if there were, the massive uptake would have instilled the required herd immunity anyway.

As an aside, whooping cough was so rare by the 1980s, that when I was visiting a young mother in ~1983 I failed to recognise the distinctive noise a baby with whooping cough makes (I later found out that most young GPs wouldn't have recognised it either), but any granny who'd heard it would have known what it was right away. Indeed, it was an older neighbour who told the lass to get down the GP's surgery right away - she recognised it immediately.

mulbot · 21-01-2019 9:21am

Where did the post from Ceadaoin go? In relation to the vaccine injury, I'd like to have read it.

AndrewJRenko · 21-01-2019 11:07pm

maxwell smart wrote: »

Seriously? Is that the sort of country you want to live in? Where the Government decides how you should raise your children?

All mine have been vaccinated but I certainly don't agree on forcing other people to do that. Sounds like a police state

Is it really unreasonable for the Government to require that children going to creches or schools have been vaccinated?

Orion · 22-01-2019 1:45am

ceadaoin. wrote: »

He was perfectly fine before receiving the vaccine and several doctors testified in court that the vaccine was the cause and the court ruled in their favour.

Correlation != Causation.

What doctors?

Orion · 22-01-2019 1:48am

mulbot wrote: »

The flu vaccine is live, so technically anybody who has had a flu shot has to stay away from gramps.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/pubinfo/flu-vaccination/about-the-vaccine/

The flu vaccine doesn't contain any live viruses - it cannot give you the flu

Orion · 22-01-2019 1:50am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is it really unreasonable for the Government to require that children going to creches or schools have been vaccinated?

Not in the slightest. If a child has a valid reason for not getting vaccinated such as being immunocompromised or a known severe allergy to some compenents they should be allowed attend. But for the exact same reasons the precious rugrats who's mammy read Mumsnet should be banned.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-01-2019 2:04am

Lantus wrote: »

Yes in the sense that more people equals more potentially sick customers. Wiping out half the human race won't make them rich.

Actually ...

If something had killed half the human race they could name their price for a vaccine against it. :pac:

Orion · 22-01-2019 2:11am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Actually ...

If something had killed half the human race they could name their price for a vaccine against it. :pac:

Don't be giving Big Pharma(TM) ideas

Igotadose · 22-01-2019 9:52am

sullivlo wrote: »

Not just children who can’t be vaccinated/are immunocompromised. Think of all of the people who are on chemo who have no immune system. I can imagine little Tarquin going to visit Gramps and poor gramps ending up with pneumonia because Tarkie had the flu because mommy read a thing on Facebook.

No need to imagine. Here's a mum describing what her immunocompromised, cancer-stricken daughter went through, when another mom did not vaccinate her kid, and she came in contact with the measles that that kid had contracted.
The poor kid was undergoing treatment for her cancer at the time.

Summary: suffering for this kid, suffering for *all* the kids in the chemotherapy program she was in, disruptions and delays to all their treatment schedules,impacts on the treatment center in their ability to treat patients, basically misery all around.

https://thestir.cafemom.com/parenting_news/216348/how-antivaxxers-hurt-kids-with-cancer/266983/kids_receiving_outpatient_treatment_were_put_on_hold_too/2

Hotblack Desiato · 22-01-2019 2:38pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

This was in the US years ago

So, irrelevant on two counts.

ceadaoin. · 22-01-2019 5:18pm

Orion wrote: »

Correlation != Causation.

What doctors?

What do you mean what doctors? Are you going to check their credentials almost 30 years after the fact? Anyway here are some people who testified.

Moll's third witness was Dr. Mark Geier, an expert in genetics and application of the Vaccine Compensation Act, from Bethesda, Md. He opined that Andrew's screaming was evidence of encephalopathy and his jerking legs represented convulsions. He said that based on the mothers testimony, he believed that, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, Andrew's condition was caused by the shot.

At the second hearing, Moll presented several expert witnesses including Dr. Alan Spector, a specialist in the field of physical and mental handicaps, from Chicago, and now Dr. Marcel Kinsbourne, a pediatric neurologist from Boston. Dr. Patricia Crumrine, Andrew's pediatrician, was questioned as an adverse witness

Finally, Moll arranged for three witnesses to testify by telephone. They included Carol Morris, and occupational therapist, Kathleen Turnbull, a speech and language pathologist

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So, irrelevant on two counts.

Not really. I was pointing out why my friend has decided not to vaccinate her child and I understand her reasons. Serious adverse reactions to vaccines can occur and she has first hand experience.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-01-2019 6:30pm

They can but they're rare.

Realistically, one isolated case in a different country years ago should have no bearing on any parent in Ireland's thinking in relation to vaccines today. But for those who want to spread emotive nonsense, this sort of anecdote is perfect (especially as it doesn't name the disease, so all vaccines get smeared.)

Igotadose · 22-01-2019 6:44pm

Moll's third witness was Dr. Mark Geier, an expert in genetics and application of the Vaccine Compensation Act, from Bethesda, Md. He opined that Andrew's screaming was evidence of encephalopathy and his jerking legs represented convulsions. He said that based on the mothers testimony, he believed that, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, Andrew's condition was caused by the shot.

This guy's a quack: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/anti-vaccine-doctor-mark-geier-not-exonerated/
He's an anti-vax professional witness. If my digging's correct, the case in question is 'Freeman vs. Sec'y Health' which anti-vax nutters have been using to 'prove' MMR causes autism, when it doesn't and the case doesn't prove it.

So, was that the case, Ceadoin?

ceadaoin. · 22-01-2019 6:53pm

Igotadose wrote: »

This guy's a quack: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/anti-vaccine-doctor-mark-geier-not-exonerated/
He's an anti-vax professional witness. If my digging's correct, the case in question is 'Freeman vs. Sec'y Health' which anti-vax nutters have been using to 'prove' MMR causes autism, when it doesn't and the case doesn't prove it.

So, was that the case, Ceadoin?

No it's not. It wasn't the mmr vaccine. I'll PM you.

Also, my own child is vaccinated, I just understand why some people don't,that's all.

Dohnjoe · 22-01-2019 6:54pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Mark Geier

Out of curiousity, thought I'd look up a bit about this case and upon checking the first mentioned name (Mark Geier) the below already rings alarm bells

"Mark R. Geier (born 1948 in Washington, D.C., U.S.) is a self-employed American physician and controversial professional witness who has testified in more than 90 cases regarding allegations of injury or illness caused by vaccines.[2][3] Since 2011, Geier's medical license has been suspended or revoked in every state in which he was licensed over concerns about his autism treatments and his misrepresentation of his credentials to the Maryland Board of Health, where he falsely claimed to be a board-certified geneticist and epidemiologist.[4]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Geier

ceadaoin. · 22-01-2019 6:57pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They can but they're rare.

Realistically, one isolated case in a different country years ago should have no bearing on any parent in Ireland's thinking in relation to vaccines today. But for those who want to spread emotive nonsense, this sort of anecdote is perfect (especially as it doesn't name the disease, so all vaccines get smeared.)

Yes, but I live in the US and the child affected in the case I'm talking about is my friends brother! So my whole point was I understand her decision to not vaccinate and don't judge her for it.

Igotadose · 22-01-2019 7:20pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Not really. I was pointing out why my friend has decided not to vaccinate her child and I understand her reasons. Serious adverse reactions to vaccines can occur and she has first hand experience.

It is tragic what happened to your friend's brother. Appreciate the PM with the case details. The decision to vaccinate a child is in fact one the parent makes, and I think you'll find that despite what happened to your friend's brother, her decision was colored by emotion and not logic. Her kid's lives would be much more at risk due to not vaccinating.

It seems that the failure in the case mentioned is not so much the vaccine, but the re-administration of it after the child in question showed to be allergic or otherwise react to it. That was malfeasance on someone's part.

Can't read the details of the case, but I doubt there was any finding of causation ('the vaccine caused this'). And, I'd discount anything former Dr. Geier testified to.

Encephalopathy · 25-01-2019 10:26pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Yes, but I live in the US and the child affected in the case I'm talking about is my friends brother! So my whole point was I understand her decision to not vaccinate and don't judge her for it.

She's 100% right, I'm in the same boat as her and thousands more.

I've two children, two fully vaccinated to date, two of them diagnosed with autism. Honestly can't blame the vaccines on the oldest ones problems but the youngest one was severely damaged by them. As a result of that, they will be receiving no more vaccines and if we have any more children, they will not be vaccinated. If that makes me an anti vaxxer, then so be it. I've met quite a lot of parents in person who've turned their backs on vaccines for the same reasons, I've yet to meet someone who turned anti vaxx because the "I heard" reason.

I read in the US they set up a vaccine court in 1986 and to date they've paid out over 4 billion dollars compensation for vaccine injuries and deaths, how is there not a uproar from the taxpayers having to foot that bill (plus all the legal costs)?
Crazy that that the pharmaceutical companies have no liability for the products they created and produce!
4 billion dollars compensation and that's just one country, crazy for something that is safe

rawn · 25-01-2019 10:44pm

Encephalopathy wrote: »

She's 100% right, I'm in the same boat as her and thousands more.

I've two children, two fully vaccinated to date, two of them diagnosed with autism. Honestly can't blame the vaccines on the oldest ones problems but the youngest one was severely damaged by them. As a result of that, they will be receiving no more vaccines and if we have any more children, they will not be vaccinated. If that makes me an anti vaxxer, then so be it. I've met quite a lot of parents in person who've turned their backs on vaccines for the same reasons, I've yet to meet someone who turned anti vaxx because the "I heard" reason.

I read in the US they set up a vaccine court in 1986 and to date they've paid out over 4 billion dollars compensation for vaccine injuries and deaths, how is there not a uproar from the taxpayers having to foot that bill (plus all the legal costs)?
Crazy that that the pharmaceutical companies have no liability for the products they created and produce!
4 billion dollars compensation and that's just one country, crazy for something that is safe

https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccine-court-myths-nvicp-facts/

This will help explain about the Vaccine payouts, click into his sources, seeing as how anti-vaxxers hate Skeptical Raptor :rolleyes:

There is possibly a one in a million chance of your child being injured by a vaccine. If, and that's a big IF, your child was vaccine-damaged, what do you think the odds are that more than one of your children would be injured? So no need to not vaccinated the rest and endanger everybody else, they are safe.

Hotblack Desiato · 25-01-2019 11:33pm

Encephalopathy wrote: »

the youngest one was severely damaged by them.

Proof?

batgoat · 25-01-2019 11:35pm

Encephalopathy wrote: »

She's 100% right, I'm in the same boat as her and thousands more.

I've two children, two fully vaccinated to date, two of them diagnosed with autism. Honestly can't blame the vaccines on the oldest ones problems but the youngest one was severely damaged by them. As a result of that, they will be receiving no more vaccines and if we have any more children, they will not be vaccinated. If that makes me an anti vaxxer, then so be it. I've met quite a lot of parents in person who've turned their backs on vaccines for the same reasons, I've yet to meet someone who turned anti vaxx because the "I heard" reason.

I read in the US they set up a vaccine court in 1986 and to date they've paid out over 4 billion dollars compensation for vaccine injuries and deaths, how is there not a uproar from the taxpayers having to foot that bill (plus all the legal costs)?
Crazy that that the pharmaceutical companies have no liability for the products they created and produce!
4 billion dollars compensation and that's just one country, crazy for something that is safe

Vaccines don't cause autism.... I'm amazed there are people who still believe this. General signs of autism start to manifest at around that age but this does not mean it causes autism...

ceadaoin. · 25-01-2019 11:50pm

Encephalopathy wrote: »

She's 100% right, I'm in the same boat as her and thousands more.

I've two children, two fully vaccinated to date, two of them diagnosed with autism. Honestly can't blame the vaccines on the oldest ones problems but the youngest one was severely damaged by them. As a result of that, they will be receiving no more vaccines and if we have any more children, they will not be vaccinated. If that makes me an anti vaxxer, then so be it. I've met quite a lot of parents in person who've turned their backs on vaccines for the same reasons, I've yet to meet someone who turned anti vaxx because the "I heard" reason.

I read in the US they set up a vaccine court in 1986 and to date they've paid out over 4 billion dollars compensation for vaccine injuries and deaths, how is there not a uproar from the taxpayers having to foot that bill (plus all the legal costs)?
Crazy that that the pharmaceutical companies have no liability for the products they created and produce!
4 billion dollars compensation and that's just one country, crazy for something that is safe

It's not taxpayer funded. A certain amount per vaccine used is put into the fund by the vaccine companies. My friends family received over 4 million dollars back in the 90s from it. I don't know if it's still around?

Anti-vaxxers

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