Anti-vaxxers

Gonad

mzungu wrote: »

Any comment on the fact that autism rates are similar across different places with high and low vaccination uptake rates?

So that is your proof that vaccines don’t cause autism ?

Just like certain foods can cause certain illnesses to happen. the vaccines can “cause “ autism to happen but it’s probably not the source of the problem . There could be many things that are causing these symptoms to show themselves but for sure whatever is in these vaccines is one of those reasons . Only a fool will argue otherwise .

Apart from the millions of examples you can find online I have spoken to many parents who don’t just think the vaccine was the reason for their kids issues . They actually are 100 % certain .

ancapailldorcha

Gonad wrote: »

Apart from the millions of examples you can find online I have spoken to many parents who don’t just think the vaccine was the reason for their kids issues . They actually are 100 % certain .

The plural of anecdote, especially unverified anecdote is not data.

Gonad

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The plural of anecdote, especially unverified anecdote is not data.

Jesus you were fast with that reply .........

kylith

batgoat wrote: »

One of the popular claims is that there was less autism historically. But it simply had been identified. Eg the likes of Mozart, Einstein etc were likely candidates for having it.

As I keep pointing out to people: There were no 'autistic' children in my class in school, but there were two 'slow' and one 'retarded' who were definitely on the spectrum. My partner was 'weird' in school - aspergers.

The only way that vaccines cause autism is that you can't be diagnosed with autism if you die of vaccine preventable diseases.

mzungu

Gonad wrote: »

So that is your proof that vaccines don’t cause autism ?

Just like certain foods can cause certain illnesses to happen. the vaccines can “cause “ autism to happen but it’s probably not the source of the problem . There could be many things that are causing these symptoms to show themselves but for sure whatever is in these vaccines is one of those reasons . Only a fool will argue otherwise .

There is no evidence that vaccines cause autism. If you have proof or scientific studies (not blogs) then come on out with it.

Gonad wrote: »

Apart from the millions of examples you can find online I have spoken to many parents who don’t just think the vaccine was the reason for their kids issues . They actually are 100 % certain .

But they are 100% wrong.

There is no difference in the rates of autism in children that are vaccinated versus those that are unvaccinated.

Guy:Incognito

Gonad wrote: »

So that is your proof that vaccines don’t cause autism ?

Just like certain foods can cause certain illnesses to happen. the vaccines can “cause “ autism to happen but it’s probably not the source of the problem . There could be many things that are causing these symptoms to show themselves but for sure whatever is in these vaccines is one of those reasons . Only a fool will argue otherwise .

Apart from the millions of examples you can find online I have spoken to many parents who don’t just think the vaccine was the reason for their kids issues . They actually are 100 % certain .

For your last statement to be true, there would have to be a marked increase in autism among kids that were vaccinated . That should be a simple number to show, all studies should have a spike in vaccinated kids, so have at it........

Guy:Incognito

Before 1983 nobody had aids, then all of a sudden loads of people started dying of it.


2 things happened in 1983 , return of the jedi came out and bloody everyone went to see it.

Scientists also did some research in to some **** but that's irrelevant, dont mind that.


So , in conclusion, return of the jedi caused aids.

Gonad

mzungu wrote: »

But they are 100% wrong.[/quote


“Analyses that have been done, outside of Pharma’s pocket book, have demonstrated statistically significant correlations between vaccination and autism and suggested that prevention involves less-to-no vaccination.

It is time for us to acknowledge the heinous nature of this one-size-fits-all pharmaceutical assault. There are no green vaccines, no room for a “slowed or alternate schedule” because vaccination itself is predicated on an antiquated misapprehension of individualized immunity. Metals, antibiotics, chemical preservatives, and manipulated animal and human tissues have no place in human ecology. This mismatch is particularly egregious in our current state as a species, hovering on the brink of devolution, in an age of profound transgenerational compromise of mitochondrial dysfunction, detox capacity, and microbiota-supported immunity.

mzungu

Gonad wrote: »

“Analyses that have been done, outside of Pharma’s pocket book, have demonstrated statistically significant correlations between vaccination and autism and suggested that prevention involves less-to-no vaccination.

It is time for us to acknowledge the heinous nature of this one-size-fits-all pharmaceutical assault. There are no green vaccines, no room for a “slowed or alternate schedule” because vaccination itself is predicated on an antiquated misapprehension of individualized immunity. Metals, antibiotics, chemical preservatives, and manipulated animal and human tissues have no place in human ecology. This mismatch is particularly egregious in our current state as a species, hovering on the brink of devolution, in an age of profound transgenerational compromise of mitochondrial dysfunction, detox capacity, and microbiota-supported immunity.

That's neither proof nor is it peer reviewed. When I put that into Google it shows up as being from Kelly Rogan MD, a "holistic" psychiatrist who is anti-vaccination. Not exactly impartial now is it? It amounts to little else than a blog post that contains lots in the way of feelings but absolutely zero facts.

Dohnjoe

Gonad wrote: »

It is time for us to acknowledge the heinous nature of this one-size-fits-all pharmaceutical assault. There are no green vaccines, no room for a “slowed or alternate schedule” because vaccination itself is predicated on an antiquated misapprehension of individualized immunity. Metals, antibiotics, chemical preservatives, and manipulated animal and human tissues have no place in human ecology. This mismatch is particularly egregious in our current state as a species, hovering on the brink of devolution, in an age of profound transgenerational compromise of mitochondrial dysfunction, detox capacity, and microbiota-supported immunity.

This is from a quack who makes money from people who buy into this nonsense

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-pseudoscience-of-kelly-brogan/

PhoneMain

Gonad wrote: »

mzungu wrote: »

But they are 100% wrong.[/quote


“Analyses that have been done, outside of Pharma’s pocket book, have demonstrated statistically significant correlations between vaccination and autism and suggested that prevention involves less-to-no vaccination.

It is time for us to acknowledge the heinous nature of this one-size-fits-all pharmaceutical assault. There are no green vaccines, no room for a “slowed or alternate schedule” because vaccination itself is predicated on an antiquated misapprehension of individualized immunity. Metals, antibiotics, chemical preservatives, and manipulated animal and human tissues have no place in human ecology. This mismatch is particularly egregious in our current state as a species, hovering on the brink of devolution, in an age of profound transgenerational compromise of mitochondrial dysfunction, detox capacity, and microbiota-supported immunity.

Right, I'm going to hold my hands up here, I'm a doctor. And I'm going to make another confession.....I've been paid €0 from Big Pharma to promote Vaccines. But what I have got is a free lunch in journal club in the hospital mostly once a week. Sometimes it's breakfast. And here's the biggest confession, I probably wouldn't have gone to journal club if it wasn't for the free lunch. Now unfortunately, I can't remember any of the medications that were advertised at the journal club (sometimes it might be for a brand of inhaler when the journal club topic would be on a neurological topic for example!), but I can remember which sandwiches were nicest. I like the chicken tikka ones, but you have to be down early to get some, those pesky medical students are always stealing them! They should know their place like we did!

I suppose the reason I didn't go to journal club voluntarily is journal club is tough going. They're presentations by SHO's or Regs mostly but attended by all medical levels. Journal clubs involve going through a recently published research paper and detailing a background to the condition/treatment, the type of study that was performed, the results of the study and the conclusion. They can be tough going and hard to follow and then at the end we spend some time discussing whether this was a good or bad paper and if how it's conclusions tie in with clinicians personal experience. Sometimes we'll write it off as a terrible paper, sometimes we'll agree it's a brilliant or really important piece of research. But the most thing to realise is that we analyse the research ourselves, with no influence from Big Pharma (the drug reps are long gone by the time the talk is even starting!).

What I'm trying to say is that research and statistics is ****ing hard. It's really hard to follow research papers. Statistical analysis is a topic that some people have degrees in. It's tough trying to remember what sort of study does what e.g. cohort studies, meta analysis, case controls etc. It's not deliberately made hard to follow or misleading, it's naturally hard to follow!! You have to really concentrate on it. That's why, as doctors, we know that we don't base our evidence off a blog or we're very careful to check who the authors are on papers (or indeed, where it's based out of) because if they produced crap research before, there's a chance the research will be crap again!

In conclusion, what I'm trying to say is actually look up scientific papers from the likes of pubmed or google scholar. Have a read of the full paper (not just the conclusions) & critically analyse them like doctors have to all the time. Don't base your "research" off blogs that have names like evilvaccines or naturalworld or rubbish like that. Thats not research.

ohnonotgmail

PhoneMain wrote: »

Gonad wrote: »

Right, I'm going to hold my hands up here, I'm a doctor. And I'm going to make another confession.....I've been paid €0 from Big Pharma to promote Vaccines. But what I have got is a free lunch in journal club in the hospital mostly once a week. Sometimes it's breakfast. And here's the biggest confession, I probably wouldn't have gone to journal club if it wasn't for the free lunch. Now unfortunately, I can't remember any of the medications that were advertised at the journal club (sometimes it might be for a brand of inhaler when the journal club topic would be on a neurological topic for example!), but I can remember which sandwiches were nicest. I like the chicken tikka ones, but you have to be down early to get some, those pesky medical students are always stealing them! They should know their place like we did!

I suppose the reason I didn't go to journal club voluntarily is journal club is tough going. They're presentations by SHO's or Regs mostly but attended by all medical levels. Journal clubs involve going through a recently published research paper and detailing a background to the condition/treatment, the type of study that was performed, the results of the study and the conclusion. They can be tough going and hard to follow and then at the end we spend some time discussing whether this was a good or bad paper and if how it's conclusions tie in with clinicians personal experience. Sometimes we'll write it off as a terrible paper, sometimes we'll agree it's a brilliant or really important piece of research. But the most thing to realise is that we analyse the research ourselves, with no influence from Big Pharma (the drug reps are long gone by the time the talk is even starting!).

What I'm trying to say is that research and statistics is ****ing hard. It's really hard to follow research papers. Statistical analysis is a topic that some people have degrees in. It's tough trying to remember what sort of study does what e.g. cohort studies, meta analysis, case controls etc. It's not deliberately made hard to follow or misleading, it's naturally hard to follow!! You have to really concentrate on it. That's why, as doctors, we know that we don't base our evidence off a blog or we're very careful to check who the authors are on papers (or indeed, where it's based out of) because if they produced crap research before, there's a chance the research will be crap again!

In conclusion, what I'm trying to say is actually look up scientific papers from the likes of pubmed or google scholar. Have a read of the full paper (not just the conclusions) & critically analyse them like doctors have to all the time. Don't base your "research" off blogs that have names like evilvaccines or naturalworld or rubbish like that. Thats not research.

BUT THAT'S HARD!!! You said so yourself.

skepticalme

Dr. Zimmermans original affidavit is here.

https://sharylattkisson.com/2019/01/06/dr-andrew-zimmermans-full-affidavit-on-alleged-link-between-vaccines-and-autism-that-u-s-govt-covered-up/



His latest statement is this.


Statement from Andrew W. Zimmerman, MD, Professor of Pediatrics andNeurology, University of Massachusetts Medical School, January 16, 2018:

Some media reports have mischaracterized an affidavit I provided in September 2018regarding my opinion about the complex interplay of inflammation, mitochondrialdisorders and the risk of developmental regression in children with autism, expressed inthe context of the US Department of Health and Human Services Omnibus AutismProceedings in 2007. As a pediatric neurologist and member of the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Child Neurology Society, the American Academyof Neurology and the American Neurological Association, I strongly support theimportance of vaccines for all children. I have spoken with many parents of children with ASD over the years who feel strongly that their children developed ASD due to vaccinesand I have vigorously defended the importance of vaccines as the best way to preventmany serious diseases.I have practiced pediatric neurology for 42 years, recently retiring from clinical practice. A primary interest of mine has been autism spectrum disorder, or ASD, for 33 years,especially with respect to its possible causes and treatments. In my research, I haveinvestigated immune aspects of autism, such as neuroinflammation and maternalantibodies. In 2006, I co-authored a case report of a child who developed ASD followingimmunizations and was found to have a cellular energy (mitochondrial) disorder.Subsequently, other publications by myself, by colleagues and by researchers at otherinstitutions supported the concept that underlying mitochondrial abnormalities in somechildren may contribute to their development of ASD, especially in those who undergoregression, or loss of skills following normal development.In 2007, I wrote an affidavit for the US Department of Justice, in which I stated myopinion at that time, based on the 2004 Institute of Medicine (IOM) report,“Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism,” that there was no scientificevidence that vaccines cause autism. I was prepared to testify to that effect at theOmnibus Autism Proceeding (OAP).Three days before I was scheduled to testify, I spoke with DOJ attorneys about myrevised opinion, that there

may be a subset of children who are at risk for regression if they have underlying mitochondrial dysfunction
and are simultaneously exposed tofactors that stress their mitochondrial reserve (which is critical for the developing brain).Such factors might include infections, as well as metabolic and immune factors, and vaccines.
I was subsequently asked by the DOJ not to testify.In the years since 2007, I was asked to testify in federal vaccine or civil courts on behalfof several children who had similar histories of developmental regression and ASDfollowing immunizations and were later found to have mitochondrial disorders.
During one of these cases, I learned that my original affidavit, based on the 2004 IOMreport, had been used in court without the modification I refer to above – that in my
opinion, there
may be a subset of children who are at risk for regression if they have underlying mitochondrial dysfunction
and are simultaneously exposed to factors thatstress their mitochondrial reserve (which is critical for the developing brain). Suchfactors might include infections, as well as metabolic and immune factors, and vaccines.I was asked by Mr. Rolf Hazlehurst and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. to write a subsequentaffidavit (9/7/18) regarding my recall of events in 2007.I have sought in my research to investigate signs of mitochondrial dysfunction inchildren with ASD and am currently conducting research into methods of identifyingreliable signs of mitochondrial dysfunction in children with ASD.This is an important question that has been raised in many publications in recent years.
My hope for the future is that, through research, we will eventually be able to identify thecauses of regression and find the means to identify children early who are at risk andprevent the development of ASD.


Respectfulinsolence aka David Gorski is just annoyed that Dr. Zimmerman didn't keep his mouth shut.

Igotadose

skepticalme wrote: »

Dr. Zimmermans original affidavit is here.

https://sharylattkisson.com/2019/01/06/dr-andrew-zimmermans-full-affidavit-on-alleged-link-between-vaccines-and-autism-that-u-s-govt-covered-up/



His latest statement is this.
<snipped for brevity>

Respectfulinsolence aka David Gorski is just annoyed that Dr. Zimmerman didn't keep his mouth shut.

No, Gorksi points out correctly that Zimmerman's testimony was not consequential to the OAP, which was about MMR and Autism. Zimmerman agreed no link between vaccines and autism. Zimmerman didn't testify but his information was included in the deposition. So, the government covered up nothing. Zimmerman's point that the anti-vax zealots like RFK, jr. like to bring up, is that Zimmerman believes there's a mitochondrial component to autism that might be activated by vaccines in rare cases (that's in the affidavit too.) As that wasn't what the OAP was about, it wasn't brought in.

Good analysis here: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/anti-vaccine-activists-revive-hannah-poling-case/

Igotadose

The gift of the anti-vax religion: a state of emergency in WA state, 35 cases of measles and no doubt more to come.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/26/health/washington-state-measles-state-of-emergency/index.html

Encephalopathy

PhoneMain wrote: »

Gonad wrote: »

Right, I'm going to hold my hands up here, I'm a doctor. And I'm going to make another confession.....I've been paid €0 from Big Pharma to promote Vaccines. But what I have got is a free lunch in journal club in the hospital mostly once a week. Sometimes it's breakfast. And here's the biggest confession, I probably wouldn't have gone to journal club if it wasn't for the free lunch. Now unfortunately, I can't remember any of the medications that were advertised at the journal club (sometimes it might be for a brand of inhaler when the journal club topic would be on a neurological topic for example!), but I can remember which sandwiches were nicest. I like the chicken tikka ones, but you have to be down early to get some, those pesky medical students are always stealing them! They should know their place like we did!

I suppose the reason I didn't go to journal club voluntarily is journal club is tough going. They're presentations by SHO's or Regs mostly but attended by all medical levels. Journal clubs involve going through a recently published research paper and detailing a background to the condition/treatment, the type of study that was performed, the results of the study and the conclusion. They can be tough going and hard to follow and then at the end we spend some time discussing whether this was a good or bad paper and if how it's conclusions tie in with clinicians personal experience. Sometimes we'll write it off as a terrible paper, sometimes we'll agree it's a brilliant or really important piece of research. But the most thing to realise is that we analyse the research ourselves, with no influence from Big Pharma (the drug reps are long gone by the time the talk is even starting!).

What I'm trying to say is that research and statistics is ****ing hard. It's really hard to follow research papers. Statistical analysis is a topic that some people have degrees in. It's tough trying to remember what sort of study does what e.g. cohort studies, meta analysis, case controls etc. It's not deliberately made hard to follow or misleading, it's naturally hard to follow!! You have to really concentrate on it. That's why, as doctors, we know that we don't base our evidence off a blog or we're very careful to check who the authors are on papers (or indeed, where it's based out of) because if they produced crap research before, there's a chance the research will be crap again!

In conclusion, what I'm trying to say is actually look up scientific papers from the likes of pubmed or google scholar. Have a read of the full paper (not just the conclusions) & critically analyse them like doctors have to all the time. Don't base your "research" off blogs that have names like evilvaccines or naturalworld or rubbish like that. Thats not research.

Surely there's an incentive for doctors to vaccinate?
https://www.imt(DOT)ie/news/gps-to-get-e380-for-vaccinations-30-11-2016/

Is encephalopathy a possible side effect of vaccines?
If that side effect happened, could a child be misdiagnosed with asd?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih(dot)gov/pmc/articles/PMC4717322/#!po=10.6557

Encephalopathy

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Doesn't bode well for you if yoi are saying this, how many times have you been banned before? If you're a rereg then why should we believe anything you say?

From experience on other forums(football ones), I've seen countless times, members getting banned for having different views from power hungry mods.

ancapailldorcha

Encephalopathy wrote: »

Surely there's an incentive for doctors to vaccinate?
https://www.imt(DOT)ie/news/gps-to-get-e380-for-vaccinations-30-11-2016/

I would hope so.

Encephalopathy wrote: »

Is encephalopathy a possible side effect of vaccines?
If that side effect happened, could a child be misdiagnosed with asd?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih(dot)gov/pmc/articles/PMC4717322/#!po=10.6557

I don't see how. Being diagnosed with ASD is quite arduous given how subjective and misunderstood it is.

sullivlo

Encephalopathy wrote: »

From experience on other forums(football ones), I've seen countless times, members getting banned for having different views from power hungry mods.

Who had “power hungry mods” in antivax bingo? Cos we have a full house now!

ancapailldorcha

Take the discussion of moderation to Feedback please.

Encephalopathy

batgoat wrote: »

I'm sure you can provide us with a quote... In context.

I can't, just search " Stanley plotkin under oath", there's 9 hours I think of him being interviewed. Honestly I've only seen a couple of bits of him speaking about vaccines and autism and the use of aborted fetus in vaccine

ancapailldorcha

Encephalopathy wrote: »

I can't, just search " Stanley plotkin under oath", there's 9 hours I think of him being interviewed. Honestly I've only seen a couple of bits of him speaking about vaccines and autism and the use of aborted fetus in vaccine

Aborted fetus in vaccine? Do you actually believe something this vile and stupid?

Encephalopathy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I would hope so.



I don't see how. Being diagnosed with ASD is quite arduous given how subjective and misunderstood it is.

It was a question for the doctor.

Encephalopathy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Take the discussion of moderation to Feedback please.

I wasn't talking about boards.ie

ancapailldorcha

Encephalopathy wrote: »

I wasn't talking about boards.ie

Oops. My bad.

Encephalopathy

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I know a lot of people, and I don't know any. So my anecdotal evidence trumps your anecdotal evidence

Which is why we rely on the medical science.

I only came across people who turned their back on vaccines through these wee Austism programs set up for the parents. Before them, never met any. People's images of a antivaxxers are not the reality of the real world.

ancapailldorcha

Encephalopathy wrote: »

I only came across people who turned their back on vaccines through these wee Austism programs set up for the parents. Before them, never met any. People's images of a antivaxxers are not the reality of the real world.

Whereas your anecdotes are spot on the money, so much so that they supercede the need for empirical evidence.

circadian

Anti-vaxxers should be charged with manslaughter if their children or immune deficient children die as a direct result of their reluctance to vaccinate. There is absolutely no reason for diseases that were effectively eradicated to be making a comeback. Not one single reason.

Children who are not vaccinated should not be allowed to take part in childcare or schools. If those parents wish to ignore medical science and follow some quasi conspiracy theory then they should also face the consequences of putting others at risk by removing their children from school.

Timberrrrrrrr

Encephalopathy wrote: »

I can't, just search " Stanley plotkin under oath", there's 9 hours I think of him being interviewed. Honestly I've only seen a couple of bits of him speaking about vaccines and autism and the use of aborted fetus in vaccine

Aaaaaand down the rabbit hole we go :rolleyes:

banie01

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Aaaaaand down the rabbit hole we go :rolleyes:

Called it a couple days ago with this particular poster
"I came across this in my research", choosing Encephalopathy as their username and then angling the convo to

Is encephalopathy a possible side effect of vaccines?

Are we supposed to assume that you don't know the implications of the choice?
That as "encephalopathy" is a listed effect, that by acknowledging it, that Anti-vax logic can trump science by introducing inflammation related to vaccine reaction as the cause of ASD?

The misdirection and misinformation hidden in the guise of "trying to learn" is pathetic at this stage.