Anti-vaxxers

Paddy Cow

This is insane. Measles is on the rise in Europe. There was an outbreak in America. There's outbreaks in Africa and Asia which has lead to hundreds of people dying. As the poster above said, it's not just deaths but people living with the scars of the disease. Where are the outbreaks of Autism? They don't exist! It's absolute madness.

Dohnjoe

I'm not one for censorship but they seriously need to think about tackling anti-vaxx disinformation on a global level

old_aussie

WHY THE CONFUSION

Only 12 children used for a research study and then make a medical conclusion...WTF!

According to an Australian Government fact sheet, in 1998, a research group in the UK led by Andrew Wakefield suggested some children who had received the MMR vaccine went on to develop bowel disease and developmental disorders such as autism.

The results of the research, which had included only 12 children, were published in a respected medical journal.

However, the authors retracted their claim there was any association between vaccination and autism in 2004.

old_aussie

The Latest Reported Measles Outbreak in British Columbia Canada Could Basically Be Blamed on Andrew Wakefield

This current outbreak in BC may have started due to three unvaccinated children who contracted measles during a trip to Vietnam.

After a number of hospital visits and a few days back at school, the youngest was finally tested for measles, and the disease was confirmed.

The dad of these kids has stepped forward to tell his side of the story. Sadly, it shows that even 20 years later, the dangerous and completely false 'vaccines cause autism' myth is still damaging families.

"We worried 10-12 years ago because there was a lot of debate around the MMR vaccine," the father explained in an interview with CBC News. "Doctors were coming out with research connecting the MMR vaccine with autism. So we were a little concerned."​​

TheChizler

Personally I blame the media far more than Wakefield. Plenty of dishonest cranks out there. Not all get their unremarkable and flawed research propelled to the forefront of public discourse, followed up by countless opinions by non-experts. Not defending him at all but the media have scapegoated him when it's themselves they should have been critical of.

Dohnjoe

TheChizler wrote: »

Personally I blame the media far more than Wakefield. Plenty of dishonest cranks out there. Not all get their unremarkable and flawed research propelled to the forefront of public discourse, followed up by countless opinions by non-experts. Not defending him at all but the media have scapegoated him when it's themselves they should have been critical of.

To be honest have never seen anti-vaxx stuff projected as truth on reputable outlets

It's really just through unfettered social media like Facebook, Youtube, "health blogs", etc

circadian

I'm almost certain the propagation and growth of the anti-vax and flat earth movements we've seen in the last few years is driven in part by the Russian disinformation campaign. They've been at this craic for decades, there was a massive campaign that was successful claiming that Aids was a CIA biological weapon.

Looking at what's going on today you have Q-Anon (or is it R-Anon now?) With a sizeable following peddling all sorts of crazy conspiracies that people believe because it confirms their bias.

ohnonotgmail

TheChizler wrote: »

Personally I blame the media far more than Wakefield. Plenty of dishonest cranks out there. Not all get their unremarkable and flawed research propelled to the forefront of public discourse, followed up by countless opinions by non-experts. Not defending him at all but the media have scapegoated him when it's themselves they should have been critical of.

Wakefield falsified the scientific study that a lot of anti-vaxxers still refer to. And he did it for financial gain. Any abuse he gets is well earned.

Igotadose

TheChizler wrote: »

Personally I blame the media far more than Wakefield. Plenty of dishonest cranks out there. Not all get their unremarkable and flawed research propelled to the forefront of public discourse, followed up by countless opinions by non-experts. Not defending him at all but the media have scapegoated him when it's themselves they should have been critical of.

There weren't any before Wakefield that, at least, were doctors (there've always been snake oil salesmen with miracle cures.) But, Wakefiled committed this criminal activity because of his profit motivation and, *to this day*, continues to peddle his lies. The media in fact did debunk him, it was a journalist who chased it down.

Don't blame the media because there wasn't someone doing this before Wakefield. He's entirely to blame and, in fact, at this point is probably glad of what little media coverage he still gets.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the Lancet for publishing his twaddle. Massive failure on their part.

seamus

Wakefield is directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of needless deaths at this point. Realistically he should be imprisoned for crimes against humanity.

TheChizler

Igotadose wrote: »

There weren't any before Wakefield that, at least, were doctors (there've always been snake oil salesmen with miracle cures.) But, Wakefiled committed this criminal activity because of his profit motivation and, *to this day*, continues to peddle his lies. The media in fact did debunk him, it was a journalist who chased it down.

Don't blame the media because there wasn't someone doing this before Wakefield. He's entirely to blame and, in fact, at this point is probably glad of what little media coverage he still gets.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the Lancet for publishing his twaddle. Massive failure on their part.

Plenty around before Wakefield, quite a bit of fear around thiomersal in the 90s in the US.

The point is, most people don't read the Lancet, most people get their news on science from newspapers, news reports, lifestyle tv, and tabloids. If you're lucky they quote an opinion from someone who knows what they're talking about, unfortunately not all the time. Not every journalist was complicit, but plenty were. While Wakefield deserves his share of the blame and to be struck off, he's not the only guilty party.

Much worse is published that we never hear about. It's quite dangerous to believe that one man was responsible for the entire scare. It allows everyone to point the finger at one person and avoid examining what really happened, and this leave the cycle open to being repeated.

https://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/

ohnonotgmail

TheChizler wrote: »

Plenty around before Wakefield, quite a bit of fear around thiomersal in the 90s in the US.

The point is, most people don't read the Lancet, most people get their news on science from newspapers, news reports, lifestyle tv, and tabloids. If you're lucky they quote an opinion from someone who knows what they're talking about, unfortunately not all the time. Not every journalist was complicit, but plenty were. While Wakefield deserves his share of the blame and to be struck off, he's not the only guilty party.

Much worse is published that we never hear about. It's quite dangerous to believe that one man was responsible for the entire scare. It allows everyone to point the finger at one person and avoid examining what really happened, and this leave the cycle open to being repeated.

https://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/

Nobody is saying he is entirely to blame but his paper is the one that the anti-vaxxers continue to use to defend their claims. Without him they would not be able to say that there is scientific proof for vaccines causing autism

Orion

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Nobody is saying he is entirely to blame but his paper is the one that the anti-vaxxers continue to use to defend their claims. Without him they would not be able to say that there is scientific proof for vaccines causing autism

For measles and mumps outbreaks he is the primary. His fraudulent "study" started this whole campaign against the MMR and is the direct cause many deaths.

And he's still at it despite being completely discredited. The likes of Trump, RFK, etc putting him on a pedestal and that fcuking movie Vaxxed all contribute to these deaths.

ancapailldorcha

TheChizler wrote: »

Plenty around before Wakefield, quite a bit of fear around thiomersal in the 90s in the US.

The point is, most people don't read the Lancet, most people get their news on science from newspapers, news reports, lifestyle tv, and tabloids. If you're lucky they quote an opinion from someone who knows what they're talking about, unfortunately not all the time. Not every journalist was complicit, but plenty were. While Wakefield deserves his share of the blame and to be struck off, he's not the only guilty party.

Much worse is published that we never hear about. It's quite dangerous to believe that one man was responsible for the entire scare. It allows everyone to point the finger at one person and avoid examining what really happened, and this leave the cycle open to being repeated.

https://www.badscience.net/2008/08/the-medias-mmr-hoax/

I can appreciate where you're coming from but I agree with Seamus, above. Wakefield was a doctor which lends him a degree of legitimacy, moreso than any other profession. He then went on to commit what was essentially child abuse because he owned a patent on a competing vaccine with the end result being that he's become unbelievably wealthy at the expense of the health of countless children.

Dohnjoe

More about measles making a comeback

"Measles returned to Costa Rica after five years by French family who had not had vaccinations"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/measles-costa-rica-french-tourist-boy-anti-vax-vaccination-who-global-health-threat-infection-mmr-a8794256.html

Igotadose

Clark County, WA up to 65 cases. https://www.columbian.com/news/2019/feb/23/clark-county-measles-outbreak-rises-to-65-confirmed-cases/

The sad thing about the Costa Rica story is that the kid in question was on a plane flight, and measles is airborne. Costa Rica says they have pretty good vaccine coverage but this is scary still.

All so avoidable.

mzungu

Dohnjoe wrote: »

More about measles making a comeback

"Measles returned to Costa Rica after five years by French family who had not had vaccinations"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/measles-costa-rica-french-tourist-boy-anti-vax-vaccination-who-global-health-threat-infection-mmr-a8794256.html

Selfish people (the parents). Considering they have the money to go on holidays to Costa Rica, I am quite sure they are wealthy enough to afford their child's measles treatment now (better to just have gotten the vaccine in the first place, but logic is never strong with these types). But what about the Costa Rican children that contracted measles in this outbreak? Despite being by far the safest country in the region, it is still a third world nation with a lot of poverty. In cases of outbreak will these children have access to the same standard of care as westerners? I think not.

Dohnjoe

Youtube will be taking ads off anti-vaxx videos

Am v glad, looks like they are finally starting down the road of phasing out this type of stuff

PopePalpatine

Took them long enough.

I'm sure Gemma and her mates will be ruined by this.

ancapailldorcha

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Youtube will be taking ads off anti-vaxx videos

Am v glad, looks like they are finally starting down the road of phasing out this type of stuff

I think this is a nice middle ground. As much as I despise anti-vaxxers, a large corporation purging services like Youtube of certain opinions can set a bad precedent.

And anyway, it's not about the money!

AtomicHorror

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Nobody is saying he is entirely to blame but his paper is the one that the anti-vaxxers continue to use to defend their claims. Without him they would not be able to say that there is scientific proof for vaccines causing autism

Funny thing is, that paper (if you can still find it), doesn't even make the claim of a causal connection. Wakefield did that all by himself at a press conference. His co-authors on the paper didn't support it.

It was a lousy paper anyway.

ohnonotgmail

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think this is a nice middle ground. As much as I despise anti-vaxxers, a large corporation purging services like Youtube of certain opinions can set a bad precedent.

And anyway, it's not about the money!

Have YT actually purged them? I thought they only demonetised them.

ancapailldorcha

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Have YT actually purged them? I thought they only demonetised them.

No. That was my point. If they did it would set a bad precedent. This softer measure which will hit their revenue will hopefully be effective nonetheless.

Orion

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

No. That was my point. If they did it would set a bad precedent. This softer measure which will hit their revenue will hopefully be effective nonetheless.

I disagree - I think they should purge them. These are not opinions - it is an orchestrated campaign to discredit vaccines and is killing people. Demonetising them won't stop them putting up the videos.

Idiots putting up conspiracy theories about the moon landing, 911, chemtrails,etc - let them at it - they're not causing any harm.

Antivaxxers are causing harm and I'd have absolutely no issue with removing a platform to spread their dangerous tripe.

mzungu

Orion wrote: »

I disagree - I think they should purge them. These are not opinions - it is an orchestrated campaign to discredit vaccines and is killing people. Demonetising them won't stop them putting up the videos.

Idiots putting up conspiracy theories about the moon landing, 911, chemtrails,etc - let them at it - they're not causing any harm.

Antivaxxers are causing harm and I'd have absolutely no issue with removing a platform to spread their dangerous tripe.

I don't disagree with anything you have said, but going full nuclear straight away is not the best option here. Ancapailldorcha is right in what he said above.

I despise anti-vaxx ideology. But, for the time being anyways, this is the correct route to take. If somebody wants to preach anti-vaxx waffle then they will have to do it without making a tidy profit on it. Hopefully, if there are no financial benefits, Mr. Quack from Quacksville won't be able to (or won't want to) spend four hours spewing crap on his YouTube channel every day when it won't result in a payday.

Anti-vaxx ideology has always been more about making money from the gullible, as opposed to any kind of true belief (I am talking about the main instigators here) that vaccines actually do damage. The man that started all this (Mr. Wakefield) was out to line his pockets, those that came after merely followed his business model (helped by the onset on Web 2.0).

Like you said said above, my hope is that all these quacks will move back onto fluoride in the water/lizard people/chemtrails/etc. where they become a minor nuisance as opposed to the public health hazard they are today.

If, after a few years have passed and nothing changes, then other measures can be looked at.

ancapailldorcha

The other issue is that the perception of being suppressed will strengthen the anti-vaxxer narrative, ie that the elites are out to crush the true believers.

Igotadose

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The other issue is that the perception of being suppressed will strengthen the anti-vaxxer narrative, ie that the elites are out to crush the true believers.

This. Especially in the US, which is rife with this nonsense. US doesn't lend itself to 'removal of free speech' very readily, otherwise there'd be no anti-abortion movement lying and harrassing like they do, imo. As a US citizen, as painful as it is to me and personally risky, I support the anti-vaxxer's right to speak freely. There's way too many in the US like Trump that want to suppress free speech by 'revisiting libel laws' or whatever it is he says. It's been pretty interesting living in Ireland the last few years and seeing what goes on with regard to libel and what it means to society - the laws have a chilling effect imo.
I've learned living in Ireland that what really makes the US government "work" is the Bill of Rights, not so much the Constitution. The Constitution is the recipes for how the government runs, the Bill of Rights, what it can, and cannot, do. Ireland has them combined, sort of, in its Constitution.

Orion

Igotadose wrote: »

This. Especially in the US, which is rife with this nonsense. US doesn't lend itself to 'removal of free speech' very readily,

The people who shout free speech from the rooftops don't seem to understand what it is. Free speech means you can say what you want - within limits. It does not confer any rights for anybody else to give you a platform for it. It also does not protect you from repercussions of that "free speech".

Orion

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The other issue is that the perception of being suppressed will strengthen the anti-vaxxer narrative, ie that the elites are out to crush the true believers.

Sure they say that anyway - look at Gemma and her crusade against MSM. It's a regular refrain - "you won't see this in the media" blah blah blah

ancapailldorcha

Orion wrote: »

The people who shout free speech from the rooftops don't seem to understand what it is. Free speech means you can say what you want - within limits. It does not confer any rights for anybody else to give you a platform for it. It also does not protect you from repercussions of that "free speech".

But take a step back to before social networks. If the tiny few people who owned the media in the UK were all, say climate change deniers and there was no internet would you still say this?