Atheist experiences of religious apparitions

Hotblack Desiato

kelly1 wrote: »

Did you feel any qualms about posting this??

No.

This is highly offensive to Christians!

What part of it is untrue, according to christian belief god created one son so there is nothing preventing another, and a few hours or days (or even a whole human lifetime) of suffering is as nothing compared to an eternity of paradise - especially when you know all along that eternal paradise is predestined for you.

If people choose to be offended at a reasonable and not even untrue (according to the very beliefs and scriptures they claim to follow) statement then that's very much their problem.

kelly1

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

No.
What part of it is untrue, according to christian belief god created one son so there is nothing preventing another, and a few hours or days (or even a whole human lifetime) of suffering is as nothing compared to an eternity of paradise - especially when you know all along that eternal paradise is predestined for you.

You're asking what's the harm in a few hours on a cross?? You think it's so trivial a matter??

And where did you get the idea that God created a son? And what makes you think that the son in his entirety (humanity and divinity) could die? And what makes you think God could create another son? A son who is equal to the father?

kylith

kelly1 wrote: »

I can't give you a straight yes or no answer because I can't see the whole picture from God's pov. I answered as best I could. Sorry that's not enough for you.

I'm not asking for a god's pov, I'm asking for yours.

Your inability to answer leads me to believe that you personally believe that it is not fair or moral to accept a person who rapes children into heaven but not someone who has lived a good life without being Christian, but you can't admit this without admitting that your god is not fair or moral.

kelly1 wrote: »

Did you feel any qualms about posting this?? This is highly offensive to Christians!

Why should he? It's true.

kelly1 wrote: »

You're asking what's the harm in a few hours on a cross?? You think it's so trivial a matter??

And where did you get the idea that God created a son? And what makes you think that the son in his entirety (humanity and divinity) could die? And what makes you think God could create another son? A son who is equal to the father?

What's a few hours torture when you're the incarnation of a god and will resurrect and go right back to an eternity in paradise?

God incarnated as Jesus. Of course he could do it again if he was bothered, which he's not, cos he's not real.

kelly1

Guys, I've had enough of this nonsense.

My true views on this "discussion" would see me banned from this forum. Which would probably be a good thing!

looksee

Kelly1, I am not going to speak as a mod as I have been engaged in the conversation, but really, if you cannot cope with A&A posting styles then maybe you should not be posting here.

As another poster pointed out, you are posting as though you expect to have your beliefs accepted and acknowledged as a basis for discussion. This is not the case, we are not here to contemplate the truths of your beliefs, and if you cannot cope with them being challenged and (as you get more and more esoteric) ultimately ridiculed as you are unable to argue them, then, as I say, you should reconsider posting.

gctest50

kelly1 wrote: »

.......


My view is that God takes sin very seriously. He considers it serious enough to 1) send his son to die on a cross ..........

But he didn't stay dead did he ?

What did he sacrifice ? His weekend ?

Jesus gave up his weekend for your sins


.

kylith

gctest50 wrote: »

But he didn't stay dead did he ?

What did he sacrifice ? His weekend ?

Jesus gave up his weekend for your sins


.

I never asked him to. I'll answer for my own sins*

* Funny how this Yaweh fella gets to decide what the sins he's forgiving you for are, eh?

gctest50

Funny god alright

Give babies malaria ? np

Plague and flood ? np

Continent racked by aids ? np

Say a particular prayer in a particular church in a particular way ? Yay ! you're forgiven too

King Mob

kelly1 wrote: »

You're asking what's the harm in a few hours on a cross?? You think it's so trivial a matter??

Why are you getting pissy when you've been referring to the eternal unceasing brutal torture of millions of people just as trivially?

The hours long torture of someone who is immortal and knows he's going to come back doesn't really compare.

kelly1 wrote: »

And where did you get the idea that God created a son? And what makes you think that the son in his entirety (humanity and divinity) could die? And what makes you think God could create another son? A son who is equal to the father?

God can't do it?
I thought he's all powerful?

This isn't a logical problem like a Rock he can't lift, this is something he has done before apparently.
So why can't he just magic up another son?

Hotblack Desiato

kelly1 wrote: »

You're asking what's the harm in a few hours on a cross?? You think it's so trivial a matter??

The Romans didn't consider it a big enough deal to prevent them from using it quite commonly. I don't get what the big deal about it is supposed to be, many mortals die slow painful deaths all the time, many non-believers / believers in the 'wrong' god / even members of the 'wrong' christian sect have done precisely that at the hands of christians.

And where did you get the idea that God created a son?

Christians keep saying it and have a book which says so too.

And what makes you think that the son in his entirety (humanity and divinity) could die?

'Jesus died for your sins!' they say, but they also say he didn't really die, which is kinda cheating.

And what makes you think God could create another son? A son who is equal to the father?

It's no more or less preposterous than the claim it was done once.

kylith

kelly1 wrote: »

And where did you get the idea that God created a son? And what makes you think that the son in his entirety (humanity and divinity) could die? And what makes you think God could create another son? A son who is equal to the father?

Is this the part where Kelly suddenly claims not to be a 'Christian', therefore not believing that Jesus is the third leaf of the shamrock of god, and starts arguing a totally different form of Christianity, with rules s/he made us him/herself?

robindch

looksee wrote: »

kelly1 wrote:

My guess is that someone without sanctifying grace in their souls and standing in the presence of God would be a bit like standing naked inches from the surface of the sun. Should God make himself less holy or perfect just so we can remain in his presence in a state of sin? Sanctify grace is God's divinity within us and it is only because of this that we can "withstand" the holiness of Heaven. A bit like a diver can only survive under water equipped with scuba gear. The darkness of our souls with not able to withstand the light of heaven without God's grace.

The more I read of that kind of stuff the more I am convinced that atheism is the only rational way of thinking.

Same here - the prose and thinking seem intended not to address the problem, but to substitute a plausible belief instead.

And to avoid any need to apologize to the offended person or people, but to apologize within the safe and careful privacy of one's own mind, where the courtroom of one's conscience will produce no prosecutor, the jury will be absent, and the judge will nod her head sagaciously, and say little more than "Well, don't do it again. Now stand up, my son, and say five Hail Marys and be off with you" and the religious conscience will declare itself clear of all faults, genuinely contrite and ready to start from square one yet again.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Mark 16 :16 He who believes and is baptised will be saved. He who does not believe will be condemned.
This statement clearly implies that the Good News has first been preached.
Just prior to saying this, Jesus tells his apostles to go out into the whole world and preach the Good News, and make disciples of all the nations.

Pherekydes

khpmlj7y9adu2w wrote: »

Mark 16 :16 He who believes and is baptised will be saved. He who does not believe will be condemned.
This statement clearly implies that the Good News has first been preached.
Just prior to saying this, Jesus tells his apostles to go out into the whole world and preach the Good News, and make disciples of all the nations.

Not such good news for those who were born and lived, say, in South America before the Spanish and the Portuguese arrived and wised them up to Jesus Fcuking H Christ at the point of a sword or musket.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

What's that got to do with Christ's command? What you describe is due to human ignorance. He never said His message is to be forced. He asked that the Good News be preached, but the listener is free to accept or reject it. Therein lies your freedom of choice. If you had sense, you would choose wisely.

Deusexmachina

While no believer in moving statues or Marian apparitions, I do find the level of anger, sarcasm and vitriol directed at anyone who expresses a faith in Christianity on many Boards threads is very interesting.
Is it because most posters are adolescent (at least mentally) and are still rebelling against their parents? Is it just an Irish thing (due to the crimes of the Catholic Church institution)? Or is it just a passing phase - will we eventually grow up as a society and come to terms with our past?
The 'ha ha - it's only a man in the sky' stuff just comes accross as juvenile. Especially when it gets deliberately offensive. Many of these posters would be outraged at similar abuse being directed at the culture or religion of other groups in our society.

gctest50

Deusexmachina wrote: »

..........

Is it because most posters are adolescent (at least mentally) and are still rebelling against their parents? Is it just an Irish thing (due to the crimes of the Catholic Church institution)? Or is it just a passing phase - will we eventually grow up as a society and come to terms with our past?

.......

Just can't accept it ? i'm can't be persuaded to believe in sky-fairies of any kind ? even by that stunning display quoted there ?

Couldn't care less.

Even if the beardy carpenter of yours actually showed up, he'd be getting a snag list to sort out

Or he'd be getting nailed to a cross again.

And I'd concrete the b******* in this time.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Back to Christ's command. It's quite simple. The believer goes to Heaven, the athiest ie. non believer goes to hell.

kylith

khpmlj7y9adu2w wrote: »

Back to Christ's command. It's quite simple. The believer goes to Heaven, the athiest ie. non believer goes to hell.

Even if the believer is a right cant and the unbeliever is the nicest, most charitable person on the planet?

spacecoyote

khpmlj7y9adu2w wrote: »

Back to Christ's command. It's quite simple. The believer goes to Heaven, the athiest ie. non believer goes to hell.

What about the Jew/Hindu/Buddhist/Muslim, etc... are those guys all off to burn for eternity too?

And it goes back to the prior raised point, does the rapey Christian go to heaven, but the atheist victim burn?

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Other faiths are in ignorance of the Truth. By believer I mean those that accept all the teachings of Christ. 'Rapey believers" will not enter Heaven.

Deusexmachina

gctest50 wrote: »

Just can't accept it ? i'm can't be persuaded to believe in sky-fairies of any kind ? even by that stunning display quoted there ?

Couldn't care less.

Even if the beardy carpenter of yours actually showed up, he'd be getting a snag list to sort out

Or he'd be getting nailed to a cross again.

And I'd concrete the b******* in this time.

Yes, good example of what I mean. A puerile response - making a big effort to offend (I'm not offended btw - sorry).

What motivates that? Genuine hurt maybe? Or just attention seeking?

Hotblack Desiato

khpmlj7y9adu2w wrote: »

He never said His message is to be forced. He asked that the Good News be preached, but the listener is free to accept or reject it.

khpmlj7y9adu2w wrote: »

Back to Christ's command. It's quite simple. The believer goes to Heaven, the athiest ie. non believer goes to hell.

And I'm guessing here, but you see no contradiction whatsoever in those two statements.

I rob you at gunpoint, you have the choice of giving me all your money and keeping your life, or refusing and getting killed. It's quite simple and you're free to accept or reject it.

Hotblack Desiato

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Or is it just a passing phase - will we eventually grow up as a society and come to terms with our past?

We'll have grown up as a society when churches are no longer insulated from paying for their crimes, when churchmen and women are no longer insulated from justice, when we have a constitution which no longer pretends that we are all pious catholics, and when we no longer use religious bodies to deliver state funded services.

Oh, and when we accept that crisis pregnancy is a medical issue, and a decision solely for the pregnant person.

Many of these posters would be outraged at similar abuse being directed at the culture or religion of other groups in our society.

A common trope with no basis in reality. Have a look at the funny side of religion thread.

gctest50

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Yes, good example of what I mean. A puerile response - making a big effort to offend (I'm not offended btw - sorry).

What motivates that? Genuine hurt maybe? Or just attention seeking?

It's no big effort at all to make an attempt to make it really clear

What motivates people continuously trying to persuade others to believe in their particular, favourite sky-fairy ?

Genuine hurt no one else can feel the powa of their particular invisible friend ?

Attention seeking ?

Invested so much effort and time in it they have to go on ?

.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Non believers are refusing the gift of Eternal life. It logically follows that they cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Because you have an immortal soul, the non believer is lost forever.

GritBiscuit

khpmlj7y9adu2w wrote: »

Other faiths are in ignorance of the Truth. .

Ironically that kind of arrogance is something I find really off-puting about religion...so if conversion or even acceptance is what you are going for then I think you are taking the wrong tack.

From my perspective, theists are all standing in a pitch-black room shouting over each other that they know exactly what is in the room and only they are going to win the prize for knowing what it is and anyone who doesn't agree with their blind faith will be punished. In no way does any of that sound enticing to me - in terms of logic or capitulation.

It's also really interesting that those honest enough to say; "Actually, this is a pitch black room - there are many religions each with exactly the same verifiable evidence (ie none) to back up their veracity so I'm not convinced I should subscribe to any one over all the others" are being called juvenile and ignorant or lacking in wisdom.

Hotblack Desiato

khpmlj7y9adu2w wrote: »

Non believers are refusing the gift of Eternal life. It logically follows that they cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Because you have an immortal soul, the non believer is lost forever.

So, more empty assertions rather than engaging in the discussion.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Remember Pilate asking "What is Truth?" Jesus told him, yet he did not believe.

GritBiscuit

Oh goody - bible quotes. That'll tell them unbelievers.

At times like this I turn to John 11:35