"Book readers" - Season 8 - Speculation thread - Spoilers on thread from 15th Apr

Paddy Cow

leggo wrote: »

I’d say the prophecy still applies but they cut it out to keep it a surprise for non-book readers. If anything, for me, this episode made it obvious that’s how they’re going to go. It annoyed me a little bit that they faked as if Jaime was going back to Cersei out of love when the thing that we’re supposed to assume inspired him to make that decision was the scene directly before with Sansa and Brienne talking about Cersei taking out a dragon. It made it clear that Jaime knew he might be the only one who could take her out. That scene wouldn’t worry him, she seems stronger than ever. Then, for whatever reason, they had him act like it was love that brought him running back. There’d have still been more than enough tension if he’d have just told Brienne he’s going to kill her and he needn’t have broken her heart.

Like a lot of things in that episode it was badly done. For book readers it's obvious that Jamie is going to KL to kill Cersei to full fill the prophecy. For non book readers it comes across as some sort of cliff hanger - what does Jamie mean? Does he still love Cersei and despite everything she's done, he's still going back to her? What does he mean by them both being hateful? Tune in next week to find out..........

mewso

Are we leading up to a "burn them all" moment from Dany in the final episode I wonder? With Jon, Varys and a few more on their knees in front of Drogon.

The White Wolf

mewso wrote: »

Are we leading up to a "burn them all" moment from Dany in the final episode I wonder? With Jon, Varys and a few more on their knees in front of Drogon.

Hopefully not....I'd hate to see Dany go out that way as it wouldn't really feel earned. All I saw in the last episode was someone being driven to the brink by identity loss and continuous bereavement in a short space of time....they can't convincingly turn her into the mad queen from here for me personally.

This is a woman who gave up the advantage to Cersei in order to fight a war that arguably wasn't hers to fight and a war that will probably be forgotten should the wrong side win. Yet Sansa is the one who is viewed in the right in the lock of horns with Dany even though the former has offered up her blood as the sacrificial lamb to further her chances of ruling the North.

Dany has always fought for the living to put it simply. Would genuinely sicken me to see them mad queen her.

Paddy Cow

Paddy Cow wrote: »

That was a really powerful scene and I teared up a little when Jon had to light little but brave Lady Lyanna.

I can forgive the show for not showing Arya and Sansa's reaction to Jon's news. I could guess their reactions and expected both to behave as they did - Arya is off to kill Cersei and Sansa played the game by telling Tyrion, but I was actually heart broken for Ghost when Jon just left him and didn't even give him a pet

It doesn't even make any sense. How is Ghost supposed to know he is to go with Tormund? He has no connection to Tormund. They could've at least spared 30 seconds like they did with Arya and Nymeria where Jon says he is sorry but the south is no place for a direwolf and Ghost trots off with Tormund after Jon orders him to. Then Jon giving Ghost one last look of sadness would be closure (to both Ghost and his Stark identity, if that's the theme they were going for). Him leaving a forlorn and injured Ghost just made him look like a sh!tty pet owner. Ghost deserved a better send off and if the writers weren't so crap, they wouldn't have written Jon to be such an ass.

I wrote a TLDR post in one of the other threads about why them not showing us Sansa and Arya's reaction was fine with me, and out of many problems I didn't really have that one.

Ghost being ghosted is a different story. Not even a 'that's a good boy' pat on his furry head for the master whose life he saved and protected numerous times. Just a sad>awkward look from Jon, and Ghost standing there with half an ear missing. As you said, something like the parting between Arya and Nymeria would have sufficed.

Maybe the show could have used this distant parting as a way of showing Jon being conflicted about his Stark connection in light of the news about he also being a Targaryen, but I imagine it was just another case of CGI budget priorities and the Direwolves being done a huge disservice in the show.

Since you mention Tormund - I didn't mind how his own arc winded up this week and his decision to go back North. I thought the show actually did a decent job of showing him being 'a stranger in a strange world' this season and his struggles with that. From Brienne not being sure what to make of him, to our southern protagonists being weirded out by his story of being nestled by a giant, to the scene where he is made to feel like a stranger/spare wheel at a table of people he fought and almost died with.

I actually felt quite bad for Tormund in that scene where he jokes 'Which one of you cowards shat my pants?'. From his perspective, he is after fighting, surviving and winning the one war that matters, they all have, and everyone should be going absolutely wild and silly on this night and laughing at shíte jokes. However, there are schemes and politics back at play already and Tormund is easily reminded in these scenes that this is not his home.

I'm not sure exactly when it was, but I do remember a quote from Tormund a few seasons ago where he said to Jon that he and his people were not schemers or plotters, that they were "not that clever like you southerners". So if is the last we see of or hear from Tormund Giantsbane in the show, I'm okay with it. The show is really bugging me with some of these resolutions and plot points, but there is still some good in it. The resolution of Tormund's arc and his decision to return home is all good with me and serves what I've seen over the years. Thankfully he and his story seem to be safe now from one of those 'Gotcha!' moments which makes no sense...unlike the NK or Rheagal.

As for Ghost leaving with Tormund - Well, the lack of a proper goodbye from Jon bugs the both of us but tbh, I can think of worse fates for Ghost in the show than going North with Tormund. No, wolves are not dogs, but have very similar traits. Ghost has history with Tormund, he will be aware of Tormund and see him as a 'friend', they protected Jon's corpse together pre-resurrection etc. Ghost will be familiar with Castle Black (where Tormund told Jon they'd return once winter ran its course) and lands beyond The Wall. I actually don't mind the two of them going North together and waiting to hopefully see their friend Jon again someday in the future - rather than them going south to KL and possibly dying in a war which truly means nothing to Tormund, and one where Ghost would probably be offed in the first battle scene.

RobbingBandit

Jamie has finally remembered the great war the only war is finally here. The War for Cerseis ****.

razorblunt

leggo wrote: »

I’d say the prophecy still applies but they cut it out to keep it a surprise for non-book readers. If anything, for me, this episode made it obvious that’s how they’re going to go. It annoyed me a little bit that they faked as if Jaime was going back to Cersei out of love when the thing that we’re supposed to assume inspired him to make that decision was the scene directly before with Sansa and Brienne talking about Cersei taking out a dragon. It made it clear that Jaime knew he might be the only one who could take her out. That scene wouldn’t worry him, she seems stronger than ever. Then, for whatever reason, they had him act like it was love that brought him running back. There’d have still been more than enough tension if he’d have just told Brienne he’s going to kill her and he needn’t have broken her heart.

It was a kick in the stones for me too but you'd have to, at the very least, resort to the "connection" between Starks and their Direwolves. He knew the score (I fcuking hope anyway!).
Ghost lining himself up alongside Mormont and the Dothraki was bad áss though.

Paddy Cow

Deleted User wrote: »

As for Ghost leaving with Tormund - Well, the lack of a proper goodbye from Jon bugs the both of us but tbh, I can think of worse fates for Ghost in the show than going North with Tormund. No, wolves are not dogs, but have very similar traits. Ghost has history with Tormund, he will be aware of Tormund and see him as a 'friend', they protected Jon's corpse together pre-resurrection etc. Ghost will be familiar with Castle Black (where Tormund told Jon they'd return once winter ran its course) and lands beyond The Wall. I actually don't mind the two of them going North together and waiting to hopefully see their friend Jon again someday in the future - rather than them going south to KL and possibly dying in a war which truly means nothing to Tormund, and one where Ghost would probably be offed in the first battle scene.

I do think Ghost going with Tormund is the right decision, it's Jon just leaving him that bugs me. I'm glad Tormund is going North with the Wildlings. It makes sense and completes his arc. At least they can't feck up his character.

I think they got the goodbye to Theon spot on. It was a lovely gesture for Sansa to put the wolf pin on him. There was good points in the episode, I'll give them that.

mewso

The White Wolf wrote:

Hopefully not....I'd hate to see Dany go out that way as it wouldn't really feel earned. All I saw in the last episode was someone being driven to the brink by identity loss and continuous bereavement in a short space of time....they can't convincingly turn her into the mad queen from here for me personally.

This is a woman who gave up the advantage to Cersei in order to fight a war that arguably wasn't hers to fight and a war that will probably be forgotten should the wrong side win. Yet Sansa is the one who is viewed in the right in the lock of horns with Dany even though the former has offered up her blood as the sacrificial lamb to further her chances of ruling the North.

Dany has always fought for the living to put it simply. Would genuinely sicken me to see them mad queen her.

I completely agree I'm just having fun at how bad things could get in the writing department. Don't forget everything she did for the slaves, trying to stop the gladiator fights and so on but the writing is already looking like they want to convince us the madness has come.

Paddy Cow

mewso wrote: »

I completely agree I'm just having fun at how bad things could get in the writing department. Don't forget everything she did for the slaves, trying to stop the gladiator fights and so on but the writing is already looking like they want to convince us the madness has come.

For all my giving out about the last episode, I don't think it's a stretch that Dany is losing her mind. Out of all the main characters, Dany is the one who never had a solid base. When we first met her, she was under the rule of her cruel and abusive brother. She was basically an extra to his will. It was only after there was an attempt on her life and Drogo promised that he would cross the seas (something the Dothraki had never done before) and claim the throne for her son that she started to see herself on the throne. After Drogo died it became an obsession.

Initially Dany was all about the people. You could see how distressed she was when the Dothraki were raping women and she just couldn't understand such cruelty. Fast forward years later to her introduction to Westeros and she has brought the Dothraki ethos of "strength conquers all". She had been advised by Jorah and Ser Barristan that ruling in Westeros was different but she still fried the Tarly's instead of diplomatic means.

She is obsessed with getting the throne no matter what and I think it's the one thing the show has gotton right. When Jon told her of his real name, she wasn't repulsed that she had been sleeping with her nephew, she was only concerned that he had a greater claim. She didn't want Jon telling people who he was because she knew they would follow him, not her.

As Tyrion pointed out in the last season, Dany has no clue what to do once she gets the throne (they had a discussion about succession). She's almost as bad as Cersei at this stage. She wants the throne and that's it. She has no comprehension that to keep the throne you need to be able to rule. She will sacrifice the innocents to get it and Varys noticed her distress in Winterfell.

People say "how did Varys notice?". He's served many tyrants and knows one when he sees one. He saw how Dany was behaving in Winterfell and her attempt to Lord Gendry didn't endear her to the Northerners the way she wanted. Dany is well on that way. For all the faults this episode had, Dany going mad is not one I find.

I think the biggest conflict in the next episode won't be Dany vs Cersei but Dany vs Jon.

Tazzimus

2 episodes left and we're supposed to get the biggest battle in the show seemingly, next episode, and something worse than the Red Wedding at some stage.

I'm not very optimistic for either of those.

MisterAnarchy

Tazzimus wrote: »

something worse than the

Red Wedding

at some stage.

I'm not very optimistic for either of those.

I hope that's not a spoiler!

Tazzimus

This is the speculation thread, which mentions spoilers in the title, and that info was said by someone from the show before it started season 8, it's not related to whatever info has been leaked, that I'm avoiding like the plague.

PhiloCypher

The parallels between this show and Babylon 5 are scary.

* Both use foreshadowing and prophecy to great(B5) and not so great effect(GoT's ones are basically ignored by the writers)
* Both shows do great work early on with all the different factions/races.
*Both shows spend seasons building up an ancient and terrible threat in the background.
*War breaks out amongst the rival factions, War of the five kings/Narn Centari War.
* Boths shows existential threat is dealt with before the political threat Cersei/president Clarke.
* Both existential threats are seen off in a realistic, if not satisfying for everyone, fashion.

Im just hoping they don't shoehorn in the telepath arc into the last 2 episodes.

Star Lord

Anyone else think Danaerys will lose her three 'children' as a mirror of Cersei?

Think John will have to run her through in the end, (possibly gaining a flaming sword in the process?) the same way Jaime will have to kill Cersei?

Conall Cernach

Star Lord wrote: »

Anyone else think Danaerys will lose her three 'children' as a mirror of Cersei?

Think John will have to run her through in the end, (possibly gaining a flaming sword in the process?) the same way Jaime will have to kill Cersei?

But he doesn't need a flaming sword now.

dsmythy

Conall Cernach wrote: »

But he doesn't need a flaming sword now.

Id say his sword would be ablaze already if at all.

Star Lord

Conall Cernach wrote: »

But he doesn't need a flaming sword now.

Sense over spectacle hasn't been prevalent recently though...

duffysfarm

i think we are looking at another battle of some sorts next week. There is all kind of theories about who will or wont kill Dany but i think ultimately some one will kill her. I think it will be hard to kill her with the dragon so John will have to be involved some way as he cant be killed by fire and hopefully the dragon wont try and burn him. Also I dont think that it will be a standalone death, i.e. they wont leave all of the unsullied and dothraki alive on their own after that.
I still think that Sansa has a role to play and episode 4 wasn't the last we will see of her.

OptimusTractor

I haven't read the books but not worried about spoilers. With Winterfell the site of the deciding battle are Tormund and the freefolk definitely done in this series? Surely their loyalty to Jon would see them fight at his side.

Paddy Cow

duffysfarm wrote: »

i think we are looking at another battle of some sorts next week. There is all kind of theories about who will or wont kill Dany but i think ultimately some one will kill her. I think it will be hard to kill her with the dragon so John will have to be involved some way as he cant be killed by fire and hopefully the dragon wont try and burn him. Also I dont think that it will be a standalone death, i.e. they wont leave all of the unsullied and dothraki alive on their own after that.
I still think that Sansa has a role to play and episode 4 wasn't the last we will see of her.

He got badly burned defending the Lord Commander so I'd say he could die by fire.

Tazzimus

duffysfarm wrote: »

i think we are looking at another battle of some sorts next week. There is all kind of theories about who will or wont kill Dany but i think ultimately some one will kill her. I think it will be hard to kill her with the dragon so John will have to be involved some way as he cant be killed by fire and hopefully the dragon wont try and burn him. Also I dont think that it will be a standalone death, i.e. they wont leave all of the unsullied and dothraki alive on their own after that.
I still think that Sansa has a role to play and episode 4 wasn't the last we will see of her.

He is absolutely not fire proof. The opposite of fire proof, even.

RoryMac

Jon and Grey worm to fight and Jon to kill him, Dany orders her dragon to burn him but it refuses, Arya picks up Grey Worm's spear and throws it killing Dany. Boom

Paddy Cow

RoryMac wrote: »

Jon and Grey worm to fight and Jon to kill him, Dany orders her dragon to burn him but it refuses, Arya picks up Grey Worm's spear and throws it killing Dany. Boom

And then Drogon fries Arya. Boom. Bittersweet ending.

razorblunt

Bronn will save Tyrion, killing Grey Worm in the process.

Though I think GW will get a final scene on a beach in Narth so I’m conflicted.

silvervixen84

I think the crossbow that Qyburn gave Bronn (that previously killed Twyin) will be used to kill Drogon. Qyburn made a point of saying all the scorpions were destroyed in the battle. Bronn may not be the one firing it though.

Tazzimus

Wish them luck getting an arrow through Drogons scales, unless someone gets lucky and hits him in the eye with it.

Ri_Nollaig

silvervixen84 wrote: »

I think the crossbow that Qyburn gave Bronn (that previously killed Twyin) will be used to kill Drogon. Qyburn made a point of saying all the scorpions were destroyed in the battle. Bronn may not be the one firing it though.

The scorpions are firing bolts that must be 2-3m long, crossbow has nothing on that. But the way the season has gone, I wouldn't be surprised! lol

mewso

I'm guessing in the finale Jon is sentenced to death by Dany and is saved by Arya or maybe she tries to execute him but he survives the fire. Certainly looks like it's being setup for Arya to do the deed and Jon to take the throne.

Tazzimus

Jon's not fireproof though. In fact, it's not a massively common thing among the Targaryens as far as I remember, Dany being as exception.

spacecoyote

mewso wrote: »

I'm guessing in the finale Jon is sentenced to death by Dany and is saved by Arya or maybe she tries to execute him but he survives the fire. Certainly looks like it's being setup for Arya to do the deed and Jon to take the throne.

Possibly the opposite too with Arya attempting to kill Dany, being caught & set to be executed by Dany, leaving John to decide between his Queen/Targ family & his Stark family...with him choosing Arya & the Starks

Surely we'll get a final scene with those still in Winterfell before the show ends. I'm wondering if the very fertile Jaime Lannister conceived a baby with Brienne up North and that will be her closing point in the show.

intellectual dosser

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely we'll get a final scene with those still in Winterfell before the show ends. I'm wondering if the very fertile Jaime Lannister conceived a baby with Brienne up North and that will be her closing point in the show.

Would be pretty lousy if all characters aren't given some form of sign off. Sam and Gilly, Bronn, Brienne, Thormund etc should all still have a significant part to play.

Wailin

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Would be pretty lousy if all characters aren't given some form of sign off. Sam and Gilly, Bronn, Brienne, Thormund etc should all still have a significant part to play.

Sam, Gilly and Tormund are gone, they had their goodbye in episode 4. It's only 80 min or so, there's only so much can be done in that time.

Sleepy

At this point it's fairly easy to call the ending:

Dany will try to (or succeed) in executing Tyrion.
Jon will kill Dany and then "take the black" going north to re-unite with Tormund and the wildlings where he was happiest.
Sansa, Tyrion, Gendry, Robert Arryn, The new Prince of Dorne, Bronn / Sam (depending on whose claim to the Reach is greater)and Edmure as the lords/ladies of their respective kingdoms will form a council of 7 to rule Westeros.

The only question remaining for me is what happens to Drogon.

dsmythy

Sleepy wrote: »

At this point it's fairly easy to call the ending:

Dany will try to (or succeed) in executing Tyrion.
Jon will kill Dany and then "take the black" going north to re-unite with Tormund and the wildlings where he was happiest.
Sansa, Tyrion, Gendry, Robert Arryn, The new Prince of Dorne, Bronn / Sam (depending on whose claim to the Reach is greater)and Edmure as the lords/ladies of their respective kingdoms will form a council of 7 to rule Westeros.

The only question remaining for me is what happens to Drogon.

Don't see dragons as a vengeful type. Without a 'master' he might be liable to just wander the world.

Sleepy

I suspect that as long as Dany isn't killed in his line of sight, he'll simply fly off into the world tbh.

s7ryf3925pivug

Maybe Jon's sword will ignite as he stabs Dany with it, fulfilling the prince that was promised prophecy.

is_that_so

I must admit I have no real expectations of the final episode except that it will be long!

The Hound Gone Wild

I think it's fairly obvious Dany has to go next episode. Probably Jon that kills her. If he does I hope he name drops the **** out of her;

LADY Targaryen, I Agon of house Targaryen 5th of my name, rightful king of the Andals and the First Men, the white wolf, the 998th Lord commander, the risen, the king in the north, friend of the freefolk and protector of the realm sentence you to die.

spacecoyote

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

I think it's fairly obvious Dany has to go next episode. Probably Jon that kills her. If he does I hope he name drops the **** out of her;

LADY Targaryen, I Agon of house Targaryen 5th of my name, rightful king of the Andals and the First Men, the white wolf, the 998th Lord commander, the risen, the king in the north, friend of the freefolk and protector of the realm sentence you to die.

And in line with Neds lessons, carries out the sentence himself too

The White Wolf

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

I think it's fairly obvious Dany has to go next episode. Probably Jon that kills her. If he does I hope he name drops the **** out of her;

LADY Targaryen, I Agon of house Targaryen 5th of my name, rightful king of the Andals and the First Men, the white wolf, the 998th Lord commander, the risen, the king in the north, friend of the freefolk and protector of the realm sentence you to die.

Would love that but we all know he'll probably be bawling when he does it.

Sleepy

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

I think it's fairly obvious Dany has to go next episode. Probably Jon that kills her. If he does I hope he name drops the **** out of her;

LADY Targaryen, I Agon of house Targaryen 5th of my name, rightful king of the Andals and the First Men, the white wolf, the 998th Lord commander, the risen, the king in the north, friend of the freefolk and protector of the realm sentence you to die.

I absolutely love that. No chance he'll do it but it'd be a brilliant scene!