Compo fraudsters to face jail?

storker

File under "A" for About Bloody Time...

The Indo reports that the Department of Justice is looking at making perjury a statutory offence. Yes, after nearly 100 years of independence, we're only now getting round to thinking that maybe discouraging people from lying in court might be a good idea.

Perjury is currently only a common law offence and prosecutions for it can be counted on one hard, it seems. Strengthening of the law is seen as a possible solution to the rampant compo culture, which we're all paying for. There is also talk of giving an insurance claim form legal status so that a lie on the form amounts to perjury too.

I imagine the legal profession will fight tooth and nail against it, and I'd be interested to see the left-wing stance, if the proposal gets to the point where it's actually debated. My suspicion is that it won't get further than the report in the Indo. Unfortunately.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/how-compo-fraudsters-could-face-jail-in-perjury-crackdown-36074747.html

Fingers crossed...pun very much intended.

Liam McPoyle

It would be fantastic if something came in.

Hell, I don't even want custodial sentences, fine people or award all costs against them if they are found to be making a fraudulent claim.

The fact that there are literally no penalties for doing so is a massive part of the compo culture.

If I walked into a bank and reached across the counter trying to grab a wad of notes you better believe I'd be in bother.

Attempting to defraud money from an insurer by making a false claim is exactly the same and should be treated as such.

Hector Bellend

Wait a minute where's me compo.

Your Face

Good luck with that.

McDermotX

Wouldn't mind seeing the insurance companies taking a level of responsibility and duty of care towards their clients either TBH.
Far too quick not to challenge claims and investigate individual cases.

Business Cat

Business Cat wrote: »

Hell, I don't even want custodial sentences, fine people or award all costs against them if they are found to be making a fraudulent claim.

The fact that there are literally no penalties for doing so is a massive part of the compo culture.

There are prosecutions, and jail sentences are handed down, for insurance fraud eg...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/husband-jailed-but-wife-walks-crash-couple-sentenced-in-insurance-fraud-uncovered-by-facebook-profiles-34236725.html

Hector Bellend

McDermotX wrote: »

Wouldn't mind seeing the insurance companies taking a level of responsibility and duty of care towards their clients either TBH.
Far too quick not to challenge claims and investigate individual cases.

Theres an element of truth in that but to be fair, sometimes its prudent to settle a claim early.

Liam McPoyle

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There are prosecutions, and jail sentences are handed down, for insurance fraud eg...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/husband-jailed-but-wife-walks-crash-couple-sentenced-in-insurance-fraud-uncovered-by-facebook-profiles-34236725.html

That's very much the exception to the rule.

That was also a staged accident so on another level of fraud.

storker

storker wrote: »

I imagine the legal profession will fight tooth and nail against it, and I'd be interested to see the left-wing stance, if the proposal gets to the point where it's actually debated. My suspicion is that it won't get further than the report in the Indo. Unfortunately.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/how-compo-fraudsters-could-face-jail-in-perjury-crackdown-36074747.html

Quite the opposite, every one in the legal profession would welcome a crackdown on perjury. If anything, the focus on perjury in compensation claims is far too narrow, it should extend to perjury of all forms, in family law cases, in equity etc. etc.

osarusan

Business Cat wrote: »

Hell, I don't even want custodial sentences, fine people or award all costs against them if they are found to be making a fraudulent claim.

The fact that there are literally no penalties for doing so is a massive part of the compo culture.

This is not true. There are penalties for making fraudulent claims, up to and including prison sentences. Conor74 has already given an example.

Here's another of a woman found guilty of perjury and having to pay €10,000 towards recovering the costs of the insurance company defending her claim.

But certainly, the existing penalties should be imposed more often.

Liam McPoyle

osarusan wrote: »

This is not true. There are penalties for making fraudulent claims, up to and including prison sentences. Conor74 has already given an example.

Here's another of a woman found guilty of perjury and having to pay €10,000 towards recovering the costs of the insurance company defending her claim.

But certainly, the existing penalties should be imposed more often.

Again, as the one Conor outlined, that's a higher level of fraud.

His one the accident was engineered.

Your one she was not involved in it.

I'm talking about cases where a genuine collision has taken place but the injured party that was in the vehicle at the time of the accident, is not actually injured.

Richard Hillman

Suspended sentence, boss.

Suckit

They have to get caught first. I was working for a company for a little while that chased many of them. Even with evidence it is very hard to secure, and many of the foreign fraudsters skip abroad until their court case or hospital/doctor appointments, making it even harder to catch them.

osarusan

Business Cat wrote: »

I'm talking about cases where a genuine collision has taken place but the injured party that was in the vehicle at the time of the accident, is not actually injured.

Mr Marcu, who turns 28 today, with an address at Meadow Grove, Lucan, Co Dublin, was seeking a total of €120,000 damages against Ms O'Byrne and Fr Bernard Halpin.
After Judge Linnane threw out both his claims Mr Marcu walked from court with nothing other than the judge's direction that he pay Ms O'Byrne's and Fr Halpin's legal costs totalling approximately €25,000.
...
Judge Linnane said Mr Marcu had clearly exaggerated his injuries to a great extent.

Again, I'm not disagreeing that penalties should not be imposed more often, but I am disagreeing with your claim that there are literally no penalties at all - there clearly are. The penalty you suggested earlier - that they be made to pay all costs - already exists.

Liam McPoyle

osarusan wrote: »

Again, I'm not disagreeing that penalties should not be imposed more often, but I am disagreeing with your claim that there are literally no penalties at all - there clearly are. The penalty you suggested earlier - that they be made to pay all costs - already exists.

For every one example you give I could hit Google and show you 5 where no sanctions were imposed.

However I will amend my initial statement to say it's rare that attempted fraudsters face any sanctions.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Suckit wrote: »

They have to get caught first. I was working for a company for a little while that chased many of them. Even with evidence it is very hard to secure, and many of the foreign fraudsters skip abroad until their court case or hospital/doctor appointments, making it even harder to catch them.

A lot of them do get caught, the problem is that insurers are usually left with one option, refuse the claim and send them on their way. There is no point in pursuing these people for costs as they would achieve nothing. This is a very important development

Stigura

That's it. I'm selling my shares in the Neck Brace manufacturing company!

Cee-Jay-Cee

This is just another typical government reaction to an endless list of problems. Instead of dealing with the problem of idiotic judges awarding ridiculous sums of money to obvious fraudsters encouraging others to do likewise they plan to introduce jail penalty's for those caught doing it which is a non starter.

Insurance companies, Gardaí and private investigators have presented their cases where fraud is suspected and in some cases bleeding obvious but judges in their infinite wisdom chose to ignore the facts and award massive sums of money to people who claim serious injuries even where there is zero damage done to any of the cars involved.

They need to cap awards to the cost of medical treatment only and loss of earnings through injuries, that would soon stop the bastards who are making these claims (and we all know many of the claims comes from 2 or 3 specific groups of people) as the vast majority of them have never worked a day in their lives.

Cutie 3.14

It shouldnt have to go to court for fraudsters to get punished, the insurance companies investigate every claim anyway and if it is deemed not to deserve a payout the fraudsters premium should go up.
Majority of people don't get punished.

Open to correction on this!

diomed

Mis-remembering falling in imaginary hole is going to be an offence?

LirW

Yeah okay but will it bring my car insurance down?

Sue Pa Key Pa

LirW wrote: »

Yeah okay but will it bring my car insurance down?

As part of a range of new measures, it should. Lots more to be done, including reducing the payments for legitimate claims, dealing with legal fees and sanctions against some in the medical profession who sign off on spurious injuries too easily. And yes, insurers need to reform and be more transparent

Potential-Monke

Hang on, people are glossing over something mentioned in the article...

'Fraudulent activity costs the general insurance industry €200m a year. This costs the average motorist €50 a year.'

Average cost is €50 per motorist due to the claims. Doesn't explain why mine went from €330 to €1150... slightly more than €50!

wexandproud

what also needs to be done and its only a small part of the problem , is a clamp down on garages putting exaggerated costs on the repair of vehicles damaged . i had a case myself where i damaged a persons car. When i was looking for a quote to fix the car , the first thing i was asked was i paying myself or was it a claim .If it was a claim the quote was nearly twice as much , so i said i'd pay myself.
When i went in to pay the bill i was handed the invoice and i told the receptionist that i changed my mind and was going to claim on my insurance , she went mad at me and asked me did i realize what how difficult i was being and did i know what it actually cost to fix the car , i replied of course i do , i have the invoice here.

Sue Pa Key Pa

wexandproud wrote: »

what also needs to be done and its only a small part of the problem , is a clamp down on garages putting exaggerated costs on the repair of vehicles damaged . i had a case myself where i damaged a persons car. When i was looking for a quote to fix the car , the first thing i was asked was i paying myself or was it a claim .If it was a claim the quote was nearly twice as much , so i said i'd pay myself.
When i went in to pay the bill i was handed the invoice and i told the receptionist that i changed my mind and was going to claim on my insurance , she went mad at me and asked me did i realize what how difficult i was being and did i know what it actually cost to fix the car , i replied of course i do , i have the invoice here.

Everyone looks to have a piece of the pie when it comes to claims. Tow trucks, lawyers, garages, consultants, investigators and the claimant themselves

flutered

will it make my 15 year old car insurable

LirW

No you gotta buy a new one

wexandproud

wexandproud wrote: »

what also needs to be done and its only a small part of the problem , is a clamp down on garages putting exaggerated costs on the repair of vehicles damaged . i had a case myself where i damaged a persons car. When i was looking for a quote to fix the car , the first thing i was asked was i paying myself or was it a claim .If it was a claim the quote was nearly twice as much , so i said i'd pay myself.
When i went in to pay the bill i was handed the invoice and i told the receptionist that i changed my mind and was going to claim on my insurance , she went mad at me and asked me did i realize what how difficult i was being and did i know what it actually cost to fix the car , i replied of course i do , i have the invoice here.

name and shame.

wexandproud

barrier86 wrote: »

name and shame.

rang the insurance company and told them what i had done ,they were more surprised by what i had done than what the garage were going to do, they know full well whats going on but don't give a f..k , just pass the cost on to their customers

BPKS

Any sanctions planned for the solicitors who represent these fraudsters?

BPKS

BPKS wrote: »

Any sanctions planned for the solicitors who represent these fraudsters?

Not many Solicitors will process a claim knowing it to be fraudulent. You think they want to put their practising certificates on the line to help a client get a windfall?

Sue Pa Key Pa

Deleted User wrote: »

Not many Solicitors will process a claim knowing it to be fraudulent. You think they want to put their practising certificates on the line to help a client get a windfall?

There's your answer.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

There's your answer.

I knew 1 Solicitor accused of insurance fraud. He was caught. And struck off. And jailed.

So the sanctions are pretty serious...

Sue Pa Key Pa

Deleted User wrote: »

I knew 1 Solicitor accused of insurance fraud. He was caught. And struck off. And jailed.

So the sanctions are pretty serious...

I think the point being made is not that solicitors are involved in the fraud, but that they actually represent known fraudsters with such enthusiasm and enjoy the rewards that come from a large payout.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

I think the point being made is not that solicitors are involved in the fraud, but that they actually represent known fraudsters with such enthusiasm and enjoy the rewards that come from a large payout.

But if there's a large payout, it means the validity of the claim has been subjected to scrutiny by the Injuries Board, medical experts, Counsel, the defence team, Courts etc. A solicitor is not going to say to his own client "you may have passed the test and fooled the others...but I have a hunch you're a fraudster". If a client is lying in a claim, you can bet he has lied to his own Solicitor too.

Sue Pa Key Pa

We'll have to disagree on this point. Receiving a large payment does not ensure the claimant is necessarily genuine, it can mean that insurers were unable to prove fraud. The majority of solicitors are not fools, they know whether their client is lying or not. The mantra of everyone being entitled to legal representation is sometimes used by solicitors when a lucrative payday is on the horizon.

BPKS

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/three-payouts-for-man-after-cars-driven-by-wife-and-sister-rearended-other-vehicles-36177212.html



This makes my blood boil.


Really, its about time the media were allowed to reported the name of the solicitors who represent these people. Although that might just drum up more business for them.

Scarlet42

hmmmm ..blackberry lane ... sounds like a lovely county place to live .....

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4273454,-7.9050927,3a,90y,345.84h,79.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfv5iIGkDRGpkUHb4la_jcg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

well... apart from all the car batteries beside the kids playground ...