Maximizing the current Rail Infrastructure

dowlingm

With development pressure likely to keep increasing in Dublin, the old proposals to move some or all activity out of Dublin Port are resurfacing:

2006: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ahern-backs-plan-to-move-dublin-port-1.798220
2017: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2017/08/20/move-dublin-port-and-create-new-city-on-the-water

Obviously not all flows might move, but if bulk shipping moved to Balbriggan for example you could have Tara Mines flows not only shortened in distance and in impact on inner Dublin's rail schedule, but it could be built to accommodate 201s with the possibility of longer trains and fewer weekly movements.

andrewfaulk

dowlingm wrote: »

With development pressure likely to keep increasing in Dublin, the old proposals to move some or all activity out of Dublin Port are resurfacing:

2006: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ahern-backs-plan-to-move-dublin-port-1.798220
2017: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2017/08/20/move-dublin-port-and-create-new-city-on-the-water

Obviously not all flows might move, but if bulk shipping moved to Balbriggan for example you could have Tara Mines flows not only shortened in distance and in impact on inner Dublin's rail schedule, but it could be built to accommodate 201s with the possibility of longer trains and fewer weekly movements.

Only problem is, on this one McWilliams is dead wrong..

Much better reading:
http://www.dublinport.ie/news/selling-dublin-port-river-waste-expansion-key-future-success/

IE 222

rebel456 wrote: »

Irish Rail tried this and it didn't work, hence why they only charter whole trains to the haulage operators and let them fill the train - or not as the case may be. The time & manpower required in changing transport modes does not make it worth it. IR would always be undercut by road hauliers.



Again, all you are doing is adding time & cost in terms of the transfer. The time it would take to uncouple wagons, transfer to a rail head, unload, sort out... it would be there twice as fast by sending down the motorway. Each unit of cargo will end up on a truck anyway as few companies are located near these 'hubs'. It simply would not be economical for small units of cargo to be transported this way unless the rail distance was longer - Ireland is just too small.



Haulage and the wider business community companies don't give a toss about emissions - only their bottom line. Despite what their PR Departments would like to tell us. Making our HGV's more fuel efficient, along with encouraging whatever bulk cargo there is in Ireland to use rail, is the way to go. The days of sending small / multi-destination cargo by rail finished when the M7/M8/M4 opened.

Above is just mainly the time aspect. Other considerations such as manpower costs - workers would be required to drive trains, sort the cargo, uncouple trains. That all costs, especially since rail workers are largely unionised and are paid more than those employed by road hauliers. Along a similar line is strikes & rail stoppages. If the rail workers go on strike you are goosed, can't exactly hire someone else to operate your train.

Not sure why your so obsessed with loading unloading and manpower requirements. The container is taking of a ship and put onto a train. The delivery end is just the same with exception of swapping the ship to a trailer. IE can compete once they get volume. A hualier only needs one customer to compete. Once IE secure enough customers cover their operating cost they can begin dropping prices. Thats why im suggesting for example adding to and if required redirect flows currently running between Waterford - Ballina. The cost of running the train is already been covered.

Your not getting the point of a transfer hub. If say 5 wagons from Waterford are going for onward delivery to Cork then place them 5 wagons at the end of train. On arrival in Limerick Jct simply uncouple the last 5 and off you go. The train travelling to cork will collect when passing. It only requires 1 station staff member to do this. I dont see where the major cost is.

If they didn't give a toss why are fuel saving trucks becoming available. A lot of large hualage companies use rail as much as possible.

IE 222

dowlingm wrote: »

With development pressure likely to keep increasing in Dublin, the old proposals to move some or all activity out of Dublin Port are resurfacing:

2006: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ahern-backs-plan-to-move-dublin-port-1.798220
2017: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2017/08/20/move-dublin-port-and-create-new-city-on-the-water

Obviously not all flows might move, but if bulk shipping moved to Balbriggan for example you could have Tara Mines flows not only shortened in distance and in impact on inner Dublin's rail schedule, but it could be built to accommodate 201s with the possibility of longer trains and fewer weekly movements.

I really can't see any new port been built to replace Dublin port. Its too large scale and would have massive costs. The port is growing rapidity the last number of years. I think the environmental damage of an area alone will knock this on the head. Maybe the south docks could be sold of as very little of that is actually used by Dublin port.

Not sure what mean by accommodating 201s there is no restrictions of them working in Dublin port.

L1011

IE 222 wrote: »

A lot of large hualage companies use rail as much as possible.

In large countries with developed rail networks

This is a small island with an extensive motorway network; with a Victorian rail network much of which was built on the cheap and most of which is single track.

We already have about as much rail freight as we can expect to get. The unions - well, one union - killed off the established base inertia for many customers where road transport may have been cheaper but the change over costs were too high. Those customers are never coming back.

The future for rail freight in Ireland is third party access, not Irish Rail operated trains. If someone was willing to take the risk and get a number of, say, Vossolh *lights built for 1600mm and wet-lease* them to freight operators I think there'd be more people doing it - but there will never be a market for Irish Rail to run a part-load service ever again.


*with drivers

Taytosnax

L1011 wrote: »

In large countries with developed rail networks

This is a small island with an extensive motorway network; with a Victorian rail network much of which was built on the cheap and most of which is single track.

We already have about as much rail freight as we can expect to get. The unions - well, one union - killed off the established base inertia for many customers where road transport may have been cheaper but the change over costs were too high. Those customers are never coming back.

The future for rail freight in Ireland is third party access, not Irish Rail operated trains. If someone was willing to take the risk and get a number of, say, Vossolh *lights built for 1600mm and wet-lease* them to freight operators I think there'd be more people doing it - but there will never be a market for Irish Rail to run a part-load service ever again.


*with drivers

A: We don't have that extensive a motorway network - try getting to Donegal from Dublin or Cork to Limerick

B: most developed countries use both Road and Rail, they complement each other

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

If someone was willing to take the risk and get a number of, say, Vossolh *lights built for 1600mm and wet-lease* them to freight operators I think there'd be more people doing it

i believe they are about 21t per axel so would likely be to heavy for the tracks. i presume you are referring to the euro-light?

L1011

Taytosnax wrote: »

A: We don't have that extensive a motorway network - try getting to Donegal from Dublin or Cork to Limerick

B: most developed countries use both Road and Rail, they complement each other

There is bog all freight that needs to go from Donegal to anywhere. Our motorway network extensively covers everywhere there is a freight source, except Mayo - where the rail network already captures the demand.

When, precisely, did the last standard gauge freight train run in Donegal anyway?

Most developed countries are a lot larger.

end of the road wrote: »

i believe they are about 21t per axel so would likely be to heavy for the tracks. i presume you are referring to the euro-light?

The class of locos they are from, yes - which are realistically the only ones likely to be available in small numbers in 1600mm; as they are on a platform designed to be gauge independent and already exist on 1435mm and 1668mm so 1600mm would not be implausible. Other manufacturers which are willing to look at 1600mm will want a big order.

They are specifically designed to be below 20t axle weight so I doubt they're coming at 21t. 20t I believe is the 201 axle weight which most of the network is now cleared for.

rebel456

IE 222 wrote: »

Not sure why your so obsessed with loading unloading and manpower requirements.

Do you know who actually obsesses over loading & manpower costs? Freight operators. They operate with incredibly tight margins, the extra costs involved in transferring your loads to a train, changing trains, then unloading to a truck to get to the final destination... just not economical when the train distance is small & a competing motorway would get the goods to the destination as quick.

IE 222 wrote: »

Your not getting the point of a transfer hub. If say 5 wagons from Waterford are going for onward delivery to Cork then place them 5 wagons at the end of train. On arrival in Limerick Jct simply uncouple the last 5 and off you go. The train travelling to cork will collect when passing. It only requires 1 station staff member to do this. I dont see where the major cost is.

At the same time your train reaches Limerick Junction and has to wait for the Dublin/Cork train (if that even runs) the competitor has already delivered their load (or most of it given it likely is multi-desalinational). When your train reaches Cork it then has to be loaded onto trucks for onward delivery.

IE 222 wrote: »

If they didn't give a toss why are fuel saving trucks becoming available. A lot of large hualage companies use rail as much as possible.

Greater volume of goods being sent, more bulk, longer distances, etc. Compare population of southern England to Ireland. In fact, ask yourself, why have no private freight operator started a Cork/Dublin or Limerick/Dublin service like the Mayo/Waterford?

Taytosnax wrote: »

B: most developed countries use both Road and Rail, they complement each other

Of course. Are many of these countries island nations of similar size to Ireland with a comparable population density & low bulk manufacturing output? Please do tell.

tabbey

dowlingm wrote: »

With development pressure likely to keep increasing in Dublin, the old proposals to move some or all activity out of Dublin Port are resurfacing:

2006: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ahern-backs-plan-to-move-dublin-port-1.798220
2017: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2017/08/20/move-dublin-port-and-create-new-city-on-the-water

if bulk shipping moved to Balbriggan for example you could have Tara Mines flows not only shortened in distance.

Tara Mines will be finished long before any new port is built at Bremore / Balbriggan.

If Tara Mines wanted a shorter rail journey in the beginning, they would have used the Boyne Road (old cement factory) branch and shipped the ore out of Drogheda port.

tabbey

IE 222 wrote: »

Maybe the south docks could be sold of as very little of that is actually used by Dublin port.

The traditional south docks (Rogerson's Quay and Grand Canal Dock) have been sold off long ago for commercial and residential development.

The only port activity now south of the Liffey is the container terminal below the East Link bridge heading towards the Pigeon House / Poolbeg.

Incidentally, while I agree with most of what David McW says, he is not quite correct in relation to Dublin port; The present port is basically a 20th century creation, although Alexandra Basin is Victorian. North Wall Quay and Sir John Rogerson's Quay which were developed largely since 1800, have been developed for offices and housing during the last 30 years.

Stephen15

I would suggest reopening the Navan branch to passenger traffic. Split trains at Laytown and 4 carriages going to Drogheda or Dundalk and the other 4 going to Navan as temporary solution to extending the m3 parkway line. Navan is one of the biggest towns in Ireland without a railway station but yet manages to have a railway line running right through it.

tabbey

L1011 wrote: »

The class of locos they are from, yes - which are realistically the only ones likely to be available in small numbers in 1600mm; as they are on a platform designed to be gauge independent and already exist on 1435mm and 1668mm so 1600mm would not be implausible. Other manufacturers which are willing to look at 1600mm will want a big order.

They are specifically designed to be below 20t axle weight so I doubt they're coming at 21t. 20t I believe is the 201 axle weight which most of the network is now cleared for.

Track gauge is only one requirement.

Loading gauge is another consideration. Irish loading gauges were generally similar to British.
Continental and North American / Australian loading gauges are much more generous.
This is why General Motors EMD built classes 121, 141, 181 and 071 to a slim fit design rather than conventional F class and E class standard elsewhere.

tabbey

Stephen15 wrote: »

I would suggest reopening the Navan branch to passenger traffic. Split trains at Laytown and 4 carriages going to Drogheda or Dundalk and the other 4 going to Navan as temporary solution to extending the m3 parkway line. Navan is one of the biggest towns in Ireland without a railway station but yet manages to have a railway line running right through it.

I would go a stage further, put a platform on the down side immediately before the junction at Drogheda, where the train could split before the Dundalk set pulling into the main down platform.

L1011

tabbey wrote: »

Track gauge is only one requirement.

Loading gauge is another consideration. Irish loading gauges were generally similar to British.
Continental and North American / Australian loading gauges are much more generous.
This is why General Motors EMD built classes 121, 141, 181 and 071 to a slim fit design rather than conventional F class and E class standard elsewhere.

The loco type in question has a UK loading gauge model

LuckyLloyd

When was Navan closed to passenger traffic?

Stephen15

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

When was Navan closed to passenger traffic?

1958

Phil.x

Extra train services on the m3/dockkands.

Extra trains services on the Connolly/maynooth for example, theres one per hour on Saturday around 1pm when I had the misfortune of using it, also after 8pm mon/fri it's one per hour, pathetic shambles of an excuse.

IE 222

L1011 wrote: »

In large countries with developed rail networks

This is a small island with an extensive motorway network; with a Victorian rail network much of which was built on the cheap and most of which is single track.

We already have about as much rail freight as we can expect to get. The unions - well, one union - killed off the established base inertia for many customers where road transport may have been cheaper but the change over costs were too high. Those customers are never coming back.

The future for rail freight in Ireland is third party access, not Irish Rail operated trains. If someone was willing to take the risk and get a number of, say, Vossolh *lights built for 1600mm and wet-lease* them to freight operators I think there'd be more people doing it - but there will never be a market for Irish Rail to run a part-load service ever again.


*with drivers

Small island yes but were not talking 50 full freight trains running around the country daily. Maybe over the years we could see a reasonable number of 4 or 5 which totals 100+ trucks.

Im sick off hearing the lost of freight was due to a strike in the early 00's. Most of the traffic was declining before that. Traffic such as cement left the country completely we dont see 100s of cement bubbles driving up and down the motorways. Keg traffic was going either way. Fertiliser and Ammonia went when Irish Fertiliser shut or is the Irish Rail strike the reason they shut down. During the 90's the country moved away from bulkly manufacturing goods and moved into tech and phara industry resulting in lower container volumes.

Im baffled as to how you beleive a 3rd party leasing regauged stock, hiring drivers, paying access fees and all other running cost could run a freight service cheaper than IE.

IE 222

rebel456 wrote: »

Do you know who actually obsesses over loading & manpower costs? Freight operators. They operate with incredibly tight margins, the extra costs involved in transferring your loads to a train, changing trains, then unloading to a truck to get to the final destination... just not economical when the train distance is small & a competing motorway would get the goods to the destination as quick.



At the same time your train reaches Limerick Junction and has to wait for the Dublin/Cork train (if that even runs) the competitor has already delivered their load (or most of it given it likely is multi-desalinational). When your train reaches Cork it then has to be loaded onto trucks for onward delivery.



Greater volume of goods being sent, more bulk, longer distances, etc. Compare population of southern England to Ireland. In fact, ask yourself, why have no private freight operator started a Cork/Dublin or Limerick/Dublin service like the Mayo/Waterford?



Of course. Are many of these countries island nations of similar size to Ireland with a comparable population density & low bulk manufacturing output? Please do tell.

1 or 2 loads yes road would be quicker but if you 5 - 10 containers to be shipped you be waiting for trucks. Unlessing your paying top dollar no haulage company is going to be sending a fleet of trucks to move at once.

Port companies unload ships freight forwarder just collects when ready. Seems to work perfectly well for IE in Dublin port thus far and all they have is train staff done there.

IE 222

Stephen15 wrote: »

I would suggest reopening the Navan branch to passenger traffic. Split trains at Laytown and 4 carriages going to Drogheda or Dundalk and the other 4 going to Navan as temporary solution to extending the m3 parkway line. Navan is one of the biggest towns in Ireland without a railway station but yet manages to have a railway line running right through it.

Id go one further and scape current Navan plans. Upgrade current Navan line as mentioned and reroute M3 line to Ashbourne via Ratoath and route Dart there instead of Maynooth.

Infini

IE 222 wrote: »

Id go one further and scape current Navan plans. Upgrade current Navan line as mentioned and reroute M3 line to Ashbourne via Ratoath and route Dart there instead of Maynooth.

I'd agree the M3 Branch would make a much more suitable location for a Dart Depot over Maynooth. Expecially since that section would have much more potential for a Depot to be built as well compared to the other line.

As for the rest of the line to Navan IMO it SHOULD be rebuilt but they should throw in some SDZ developments in and build up towns along that line so its reasonably viable.

Isambard

IE 222 wrote: »

1 or 2 loads yes road would be quicker but if you 5 - 10 containers to be shipped you be waiting for trucks. Unlessing your paying top dollar no haulage company is going to be sending a fleet of trucks to move at once.

Port companies unload ships freight forwarder just collects when ready. Seems to work perfectly well for IE in Dublin port thus far and all they have is train staff done there.

but to load a full train load and then wait for a path takes time, as does unloading multiple containers at the other end.. Also don't forget a container service would be carrying goods for multiple customers who might well have their own fleets of trucks and there are also many independent hauliers competing for the business.

andrewfaulk

Isambard wrote: »

but to load a full train load and then wait for a path takes time, as does unloading multiple containers at the other end.. Also don't forget a container service would be carrying goods for multiple customers who might well have their own fleets of trucks and there are also many independent hauliers competing for the business.

Time to offload and reload one train, 18 wagons off, 18 wagons on= 1 hour
Time for one truck to queue, get ticket, go to crane, load container and leave terminal on a Monday or Tuesday= 45 minutes

Paths are booked in advance and loading takes place to suit these, maximum waiting time currently= 1hr 35mins

The time thing is a red herring, yes rail is slower but is not the reason there aren't more container trains..
It only really matters for Imports in all these scenarios people keep creating and even then not every container is required for delivery on day one of arrival..

Yes a container train carries cargo for many customers, that's the route to filling trains, by spreading your customer base..very few companies in Ireland would fill a full train alone, especially not one a day.. FYI, when it comes to containers, it's mostly forwarders or shipping lines who arrange the haulage, so a few big customers instead of lots small companies is what a company operating a rail service would deal with..

Pete_Cavan

There are already threads for discussing freight, it really shouldn't be happening here.

L1011

IE 222 wrote: »

Im sick off hearing the lost of freight was due to a strike in the early 00's.

Being sick of hearing the truth doesn't change history. The ILDA strike pushed established rail freight flows to road, from where they will never return. It also assisted in closing down IFI.

IE 222 wrote: »

Im baffled as to how you beleive a 3rd party leasing regauged stock, hiring drivers, paying access fees and all other running cost could run a freight service cheaper than IE.

Because IE's costs are out of control, they are short of suitable locomotives in working order and even shorter of drivers for them; and they are never going to run part-load again anyway - that scenario, however remote, is about the only chance of there being part-load

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

Being sick of hearing the truth doesn't change history. The ILDA strike pushed established rail freight flows to road, from where they will never return. It also assisted in closing down IFI.

if they still exist there is always the possibility of a return, especially when we want to avoid those carbon fines coming and we have to start encouraging a greater shift from road haulage.

L1011 wrote: »

Because IE's costs are out of control, they are short of suitable locomotives in working order and even shorter of drivers for them; and they are never going to run part-load again anyway - that scenario, however remote, is about the only chance of there being part-load

which exact costs are out of control.
we cannot say for certain they are never going to run part-load again, they may not and they may do. after all, many of us thought they would never get back into any freight again and they did.

IE 222

Infini wrote: »

I'd agree the M3 Branch would make a much more suitable location for a Dart Depot over Maynooth. Expecially since that section would have much more potential for a Depot to be built as well compared to the other line.

As for the rest of the line to Navan IMO it SHOULD be rebuilt but they should throw in some SDZ developments in and build up towns along that line so its reasonably viable.

Canal restricts any real hopes of expanding infrastructure on the line. Maynooth line will also need upgrading to allow overtaking especially Maynooth when Dart arrives at least diverting at Clonsila onto M3 gives some breeding space and less restrictions further on.

Why go to all off that extra expense when a line already serves Navan. Extend to Ashbourne and develop SDZ there. Closer to Dublin as well. A commuter service between Navan and Drogheda (2 of the biggest towns in the country) with onward connections to Dublin or Belfast is invaluable IMO. Navan branch will branch will also has the advantage of the Drogheda service Depot as well so no need for depots ect.

thomasj

IE 222 wrote:

Why go to all off that extra expense when a line already serves Navan. Extend to Ashbourne and develop SDZ there. Closer to Dublin as well. A commuter service between Navan and Drogheda (2 of the biggest towns in the country) with onward connections to Dublin or Belfast is invaluable IMO. Navan branch will branch will also has the advantage of the Drogheda service Depot as well so no need for depots ect.

Because there's no room to run new services on the northern line?

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

but to load a full train load and then wait for a path takes time, as does unloading multiple containers at the other end.. Also don't forget a container service would be carrying goods for multiple customers who might well have their own fleets of trucks and there are also many independent hauliers competing for the business.

Paths are preplanned and the railway is free over night should demand dictate such services. Depending on the products been shipped most companies will look at cost over time. If sending goods via rail takes 3 or 4 hours longer but offers €100s in savings you can be sure a switch will be made.

IE 222

L1011 wrote: »

Being sick of hearing the truth doesn't change history. The ILDA strike pushed established rail freight flows to road, from where they will never return. It also assisted in closing down IFI.



Because IE's costs are out of control, they are short of suitable locomotives in working order and even shorter of drivers for them; and they are never going to run part-load again anyway - that scenario, however remote, is about the only chance of there being part-load

Assisted in the closure of IFI, come on now. The strike had very little to do will the loss of business. The business was going either way. The bulk of container freight had been lost before this and major changes with Irish Cement ect ment outsourcing/relocating to cheaper countries.

IE Freight business turns a profit. Short of suitable locomotives... inchicore is full of locos if anything. Drivers can be sought and again any freight developments will take place over a period of time allowing time for new drivers.

IE 222

thomasj wrote: »

Because there's no room to run new services on the northern line?

In its current state yes but with some improvements and overtaking facilities added it wouldn't be a problem. Maynooth line will grind to a halt with Navan services included, given a service from Navan will attract an awful lot more demand than a carpark off the M3 in the middle of nowhere will.

Stephen15

I would suggest a Dart extension to Wicklow Town. This would increase the levels of commuters in the likes of Wicklow Town and Kilcoole both suffer from infrequent services.

I think an hourly service to Wicklow Town would be justified as it already is a biggish commuter town but most commuter journeys are made by car or bus and not by rail as the service is too infrequent. Kilcoole is also a growing commuter town with nearby Newtownmountkennedy being one of the country's fastest growing town, however it is one of the worst served stations on the whole IE network.

The best way to increase service to these towns would be to extend the electrification to Wicklow Town as would it decrease the amount of dead diesel running under OH wires. If you ran hourly diesel services on the Southern line it would lead to congestion similar to waht is already experienced on the Northern line.

metrovick001

Why is the reopening of the WRC "wastefull".
The people using it every day don't seem to think that's it's wastefull.
Its quite useful actually with passenger number continually growing.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think most people here will want to see projects like Dart Underground, Metro North, and other such major investments in the future approved, adequately funded, and brought to completion.

However, in the world within which we live where a lack of political will for such things persists, is there a possibility of quick wins within the parameters of the current infrastructure?

In the last decade we've seen an arguably positive development with the opening of the PPT for €14m, and an arguably wasteful reopening of sections of the Western Rail Corridor. That said, projects like those are indicative of potential within what we have.

Some types of things I could think of that might be worth debating (though I'm sure those on here far more knowledgeable than me could thing of superior opportunities):

- Line / Signalling improvements to enable increase in speeds on Intercity lines
- Reopening the Athlone to Mullingar line
- Investing in the Dublin to Belfast line
- Building out Platform 10 in Houston to give it pedestrian access to the surrounding areas and linking it to the current station. Ultimately allowing Tunnel services to stop there as a "Houston West" option
- Improving Port connections?
- Passenger services from Navan?

I don't know. What would you spend €100m on I guess if it was lying around?

LuckyLloyd

metrovick001 wrote: »

Why is the reopening of the WRC "wastefull".
The people using it every day don't seem to think that's it's wastefull.
Its quite useful actually with passenger number continually growing.

What is the subsidy per passenger journey?

I want to protect and expand the current rail infrastructure. I don't believe investment into projects that end up requiring very significant per journey subvention and then become a political millstone around Irish Rail's neck help achieve that aim.

This thread has been excellent in so far as throwing up a lot of ideas for projects much smaller in scale and monetary investment than the WRC that would have much stronger business cases, and create greater options within the overall network. WRC is highly specific and highly expensive.

metrovick001

Im afraid all railway journeys in Ireland are subsidised - not just the ones made on the WRC.
Im not sure what the subsidy per head is but I wouldnt use that as a metric to judge how a line is performing of how viable it is.
Cutting away parts of the network does not help protect the remaining network, it will have an opposite effect.
If IE were serious about running services on the threatened lines ot of limerick & the Rosslare line they would implement timetables to suite the customers and not the accountants.

Regarding ideas for network improvement

Bi-directional running on the Northern & Maynooth lines to allow express outer suburban trains to quickly int the city (Longford-Connolly all stops - seriously!)
Change turnout at B'Brophy to allow a Portlaoise-Nenagh shuttle.
Dynamic loop from Tullamore-Clara (less costly than doubling entire branch - could be incorporated into future upgrade).
Change configuration of Glassnevin junction to allow trans from the Northwall branch run to Docklands (Hazlehatch-Docklands shuttle).

roundymac

IE 222 wrote: »

Assisted in the closure of IFI, come on now. The strike had very little to do will the loss of business. The business was going either way. The bulk of container freight had been lost before this and major changes with Irish Cement ect ment outsourcing/relocating to cheaper countries.

IE Freight business turns a profit. Short of suitable locomotives... inchicore is full of locos if anything. Drivers can be sought and again any freight developments will take place over a period of time allowing time for new drivers.

It gave the Govt of the day(Mary Harney) the excuse to close it.

GerardKeating

metrovick001 wrote: »

Why is the reopening of the WRC "wastefull".
The people using it every day don't seem to think that's it's wastefull.
Its quite useful actually with passenger number continually growing.

The same money might have opened a line with a lot more passengers, perhaps Navan, Nass, Athlone/Mullingar, Youghal, Kinsale, etc.

metrovick001

The same money could have gone to open another moterway so I think we did well to reopen a line that has some potential.
Navan will get it's line eventually.

GerardKeating wrote: »

The same money might have opened a line with a lot more passengers, perhaps Navan, Nass, Athlone/Mullingar, Youghal, Kinsale, etc.

end of the road

GerardKeating wrote: »

The same money might have opened a line with a lot more passengers, perhaps Navan, Nass, Athlone/Mullingar, Youghal, Kinsale, etc.

unfortunately it wouldn't as there was no political will to reopen those. certainly i would have liked to have had navan and athlone mullingar reopened instead of the wrc but i guess it's not to be. i'm not sure if you could even get a line into naas now (was there even a plan to do it?) i believe not but maybe there was a proposal and i missed it.

BoatMad

Any plans to maintain the track bed to youghal seems to have been abandoned , this line seems to be destined as more accursed greenway !

rebel456

BoatMad wrote: »

Any plans to maintain the track bed to youghal seems to have been abandoned , this line seems to be destined as more accursed greenway !

Fantastic. Makes use of otherwise abandoned state infrastructure, with little prospect of that line reopening. Midlteon Station could become a cycling hub to Youghal.

Stephen15

rebel456 wrote: »

Fantastic. Makes use of otherwise abandoned state infrastructure, with little prospect of that line reopening. Midlteon Station could become a cycling hub to Youghal.

Perhaps with the long term ambition to link it up with the Waterford Greenway.

end of the road

this proposal like a number of other greenway proposals is likely a waste of everyone's time and should be forgotten about. i can't imagine anyone is going to bother cycling to youghal when there are existing greenways that have something actually worth visiting for.
midleton as a cycling hub is a waste of everyone's time.
much better to safe gard it from any development and reopen the route as a railway when time allows and put the greenways where there is actually something worth cycling to.

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

this proposal like a number of other greenway proposals is likely a waste of everyone's time and should be forgotten about. i can't imagine anyone is going to bother cycling to youghal when there are existing greenways that have something actually worth visiting for.
midleton as a cycling hub is a waste of everyone's time.
much better to safe gard it from any development and reopen the route as a railway when time allows and put the greenways where there is actually something worth cycling to.

Are you aware that Youghal is a renowned seaside town? It is 3 blue star beaches. I can assure you, folks do actually come to visit!

Greenways are themselves at attraction, allowing folks to cycling without fear of being mowed down by a car/truck, free from the noise and exhaust gases. I don't go to a greenway for the scenery, or a final destination usually, more to just cycling. Youghal on the other hand actually has a fantastic destination that would attract both regular greenway users like me, and tourists looking for a destination to visit.

Del.Monte

rebel456 wrote: »

Are you aware that Youghal is a renowned seaside town? It is 3 blue star beaches. I can assure you, folks do actually come to visit!

Greenways are themselves at attraction, allowing folks to cycling without fear of being mowed down by a car/truck, free from the noise and exhaust gases. I don't go to a greenway for the scenery, or a final destination usually, more to just cycling. Youghal on the other hand actually has a fantastic destination that would attract both regular greenway users like me, and tourists looking for a destination to visit.

But obviously not popular enough despite its 'three beaches' to have its rail link reinstated.

rebel456

Del.Monte wrote: »

But obviously not popular enough despite its 'three beaches' to have its rail link reinstated.

You are actually quite right there. And the tourist traffic is of course seasonal, along with folks driving from their homes in Cork city estates not wanting to unload at Kent Station to a train... taking the train to the seaside did decline for a reason.

Use this wasted asset as a greenway. A greenway that is a destination in itself and can bring more tourists into Youghal, the greenway could be eventually extended to Waterford.

end of the road

rebel456 wrote: »

You are actually quite right there. And the tourist traffic is of course seasonal, along with folks driving from their homes in Cork city estates not wanting to unload at Kent Station to a train... taking the train to the seaside did decline for a reason.

Use this wasted asset as a greenway. A greenway that is a destination in itself and can bring more tourists into Youghal, the greenway could be eventually extended to Waterford.

no . there is likely little demand for a greenway. it's best that it's safe garded as it has the potential to be a useful part of the cork suburban railway some time down the road. if the place is worth visiting then tourists will come greenway or not.

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

no . there is likely little demand for a greenway. it's best that it's safe garded as it has the potential to be a useful part of the cork suburban railway some time down the road. if the place is worth visiting then tourists will come greenway or not.

No demand? The Waterford Greenway is No.3 of Things to do in Waterford on TripAdvisor: https://www.tripadvisor.ie/Attractions-g186638-Activities-Waterford_County_Waterford.html

Let's use this state asset before it falls into the hands of landowners & rent bikes at Middleton station allowing folks to hop off a train & on a bike. Also adds another amenity that Youghal vistors can use, not forgetting the locals along the way who no longer have an overgrown track bed but a stretch of Greenway to bring kids for walks & cycles. Now that is really making use of underutilized assets.

end of the road

rebel456 wrote: »

No demand? The Waterford Greenway is No.3 of Things to do in Waterford on TripAdvisor: https://www.tripadvisor.ie/Attractions-g186638-Activities-Waterford_County_Waterford.html

Let's use this state asset before it falls into the hands of landowners & rent bikes at Middleton station allowing folks to hop off a train & on a bike. Also adds another amenity that Youghal vistors can use, not forgetting the locals along the way who no longer have an overgrown track bed but a stretch of Greenway to bring kids for walks & cycles. Now that is really making use of underutilized assets.

i'd imagine the locals all ready have places to walk the kids if the kids are interested in going for walks with their parents. if there is anything worth visiting in youghal then people will come.