Maximizing the current Rail Infrastructure

Jamie2k9 · 29-10-2017 7:17pm

funnyname wrote: »

Currently delayed in Athlone (enroute to Galway from Dublin) as driver is refusing for safety reasons to go any further due to the 3 carriages being paced with people standing. There were people standing leaving Dublin and it's gotten worse at each station since.

He's looking for a few buses to bring the excess before going.

Bank holiday weekend and only 3 carriages is daft!

I can't see the driver refusing to go any further for safety reasons. More likely given it's Athline they were trying to see if they had spare coaches available to join the train and or if buses were available from Athlone.

It's normally 4 so probably a train failure.

end of the road · 29-10-2017 7:20pm

funnyname wrote: »

Unfortunately he was overruled and after 15 mins in Athlone we continued as we were.
A wheelchair user got on at Balinasole and it can have been comfortable for them.

Seems to me like there's low hanging fruit but they can't be bothered picking it.

not surprising unfortunately. i guess even the galway line isn't immune from shoddy treatment.

GerardKeating · 29-10-2017 8:24pm

funnyname wrote: »

Currently delayed in Athlone (enroute to Galway from Dublin) as driver is refusing for safety reasons to go any further due to the 3 carriages being paced with people standing. There were people standing leaving Dublin and it's gotten worse at each station since.

He's looking for a few buses to bring the excess before going.

Bank holiday weekend and only 3 carriages is daft!

And I gather that one of the carriages was entirely or mostly pre-booked.

funnyname · 30-10-2017 12:12am

In that case surely that would give them an indication that they need to put on more carriages? The train was ready to board 45 minutes before departure.

GerardKeating wrote: »

And I gather that one of the carriages was entirely or mostly pre-booked.

Idbatterim · 01-11-2017 4:11pm

lads would there be significant savings from combining DU and MN? it raises other issues, I get that...

end of the road · 01-11-2017 4:26pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

lads would there be significant savings from combining DU and MN? it raises other issues, I get that...

i don't know if there would be savings but theere would be benefits to it in terms of connecting with a wider network. it's an idea i have actually suggested and supported on here a plenty since i joined the site. sadly it's not going to happen.

Idbatterim · 01-11-2017 4:44pm

say you connect massive trip generators, like dublin airport, swords, etc etc etc. You have DU so people can actually get into the city centre. passenger numbers would go up drastically. Could you then simply introduce competition to Irish rail?

this year I think IR will carry 45 million passengers, I think the projected figure with DU would be 100,000,000

end of the road · 01-11-2017 5:22pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

say you connect massive trip generators, like dublin airport, swords, etc etc etc. You have DU so people can actually get into the city centre. passenger numbers would go up drastically. Could you then simply introduce competition to Irish rail?

this year I think IR will carry 45 million passengers, I think the projected figure with DU would be 100,000,000

realistically competition wouldn't be viable. given the size of the network and no competing lines 1 operator for the lot is our only option.

budhabob · 02-11-2017 1:26pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

lads would there be significant savings from combining DU and MN? it raises other issues, I get that...

I wouldn't see there being significant savings in construction, as route wise the quantum of construction remains the same. there would be some efficiencies gained in construction that would save certainly.

There could be big savings in terms of the operational costs e.g. rolling stock procurement, the bigger the order the better the cost (generally), and maintenance of said rolling stock. Similarly, Operational Control Centres, would only require one etc.

L1011 · 02-11-2017 1:32pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

lads would there be significant savings from combining DU and MN? it raises other issues, I get that...

There'd be some from combining the SSG station build and maybe some minor project management and administration cost savings on top. Not huge gains.

There wouldn't be economies of scale in equipment as basically everything is different. Both projects would be big ebough to already be getting decent value on construction

Rolling stock is completely different, 1600mm heavy rail Vs 1435mm, likely driverless light rail. DU will be controlled from the existing CTC

budhabob · 02-11-2017 2:07pm

L1011 wrote: »

There'd be some from combining the SSG station build and maybe some minor project management and administration cost savings on top. Not huge gains.

There wouldn't be economies of scale in equipment as basically everything is different. Both projects would be big ebough to already be getting decent value on construction

Rolling stock is completely different, 1600mm heavy rail Vs 1435mm, likely driverless light rail. DU will be controlled from the existing CTC

not necessarily true. The original plans was to have a stand alone operational control centre due to the CTC being at capacity / life expired.

bk · 02-11-2017 3:24pm

Sure, if you were to scrap DU and build is as a Metro instead, along a similar but tweaked alignment (maybe extending to Lucan and into the Docks) you would have some major savings from using Metro spec instead of heavy rail spec. Though that has some obvious disadvantages in terms of electrifying the Maynooth line, etc.

No savings would be gained from doing the opposite, of building Metro North as heavy rail, as that would simply significantly increase the cost of the MN project due to the higher requirements of heavy rail.

budhabob · 02-11-2017 3:28pm

bk wrote: »

Sure, if you were to scrap DU and build is as a Metro instead, along a similar but tweaked alignment (maybe extending to Lucan and into the Docks) you would have some major savings from using Metro spec instead of heavy rail spec. Though that has some obvious disadvantages in terms of electrifying the Maynooth line, etc.

No savings would be gained from doing the opposite, of building Metro North as heavy rail, as that would simply significantly increase the cost of the MN project due to the higher requirements of heavy rail.

The benefit of DU is that it increases capacity on all heavy rail lines into and out of Dublin by bypassing the bottlenecks of Connolly and Heuston. Anything other than Heavy rail, and through running onto the Cork and Belfast lines has little or no real benefit!. If you wanted to reduce cost, build the tunnel in its entirety, and only stations at Heuston, Pearse, and if MN is done at SSG.

bk · 02-11-2017 4:55pm

The reality is that intercity trains, etc. were never going to run through it anyway. With DART running at a high frequency there simply wouldn't be the time for them in the tunnel, beyond maybe the odd special train.

That is why it is called DART underground, not cross rail or something like that.

LeinsterDub · 02-11-2017 5:01pm

Given the low numbers using the inter city routes. Should we terminate all IC services outside of the greater Dublin Area and link up with an improved commuter services?

end of the road · 02-11-2017 5:27pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Given the low numbers using the inter city routes. Should we terminate all IC services outside of the greater Dublin Area and link up with an improved commuter services?

the intercity routes do not have low usage. they don't have as much as we would like however.
having pointless changes outside the greater dublin area would destroy those routes and would ultimately bring no actual gains. it would be implementing a change for change sake. the intercity services often ofter express services to the main commuter stations within the greater dublin area (for better or worse) so your suggestion would increase journey times for everybody.
extra tracking would still need to happen within the dublin area, the finishing of the kildare route project and quad or tri-tracking tracking where possible around the connolly suburban lines. the trains running the intercity routes would still have to go to their depots as scheduled, which are in droghida and portlaoise (or inchicore for the motive hauled stock) so would have to run anyway, except they would now be running completely empty within the greater dublin area. not an exceptible option (in fact there is i believe quite a bit of empty running as it is so we don't need to add to it)
it's not cost effective to build a depot for each line either.
so in short, it's not a viable option (hence it will probably happen)

we actually had a thread discussing this back a bit, you might be able to find it. started by the poster sam russell i think. or maybe it was a discussion within another thread. i can't remember off hand.

L1011 · 02-11-2017 5:28pm

budhabob wrote: »

not necessarily true. The original plans was to have a stand alone operational control centre due to the CTC being at capacity / life expired.

CTC is moving for redevelopment (before DU will even start most likely) so if they don't provide enough capacity when that happens, someone needs to be fired.

LeinsterDub · 02-11-2017 5:55pm

end of the road wrote: »

the intercity routes do not have low usage. they don't have as much as we would like however.
.

40,000 passengers per day was reported today. Less than commuter and dart both of which are being hamstrung by IC. IC trains are the equivalent of DB's detours into housing estates. Impacting the entire service to pander to a minority.

I'm no rail expert so correct me if I'm wrong but take the Wexford line. If all the trains terminated at Greystones/Bray to meet a waiting Dart. We'd remove this congestion from the mainline and the Rosslare to Bray service could actually have a decent frequency.

02-11-2017 6:05pm

Some intercity rail is still needed. Dublin to Tralee and Sligo are still much better served by rail. Obviously this could change if the M4 and M21 are ever completed.

end of the road · 02-11-2017 6:23pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

40,000 passengers per day was reported today.

the day after a strike? means jot. still 1 day.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Less than commuter and dart both of which are being hamstrung by IC.

dart and commuter are not being hamstrung by intercity trains. 99% of the intercity trains are carying commuters anyway seeing as people commute long distances these days. infrastructure is the issue, and no amount of making others have less of a service will give you more.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

IC trains are the equivalent of DB's detours into housing estates.

nope. intercity trains are intercity trains. they offer direct services to the capital from the major towns and cities, including providing express services from some of the suburban stations.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Impacting the entire service to pander to a minority.

not impacting anything. of course the railway panders to people who use the railway. that is it's job after all, i mean how dare they use the railway at all. the minority certainly aren't being pandered to. dart has full priority dispite apparently contributing less in fare revenue and slowing up everything else. it's one service where i'm happy to say it gets enough for now.
your suggestion frees up nothing for nothing, brings no actual operational gain and causes waste in the form of lots of empty running.
if people want extra suburban and dart services then like others have had to do to try and get improvements, start telling the politicians to actually pay for the infrastructure required when they come to the door near election time. infrastructure which will be needed whether intercity trains exist or not.

LeinsterDub · 02-11-2017 6:35pm

end of the road wrote: »

the day after a strike? means jot. still 1 day.

dart and commuter are not being hamstrung by intercity trains. 99% of the intercity trains are carying commuters anyway seeing as people commute long distances these days. infrastructure is the issue, and no amount of making others have less of a service will give you more.

what nonsense. intercity trains are intercity trains. they offer direct services to the capital from the major towns and cities, including providing express services from some of the suburban stations.

not impacting anything. of course the railway panders to people who use the railway. that is it's job after all, i mean how dare they use the railway at all. the minority certainly aren't being pandered to. dart has full priority dispite apparently contributing less in fare revenue and slowing up everything else. it's one service where i'm happy to say it gets enough for now.
your suggestion frees up nothing for nothing, brings no actual operational gain and causes waste in the form of lots of empty running.
if people want extra suburban and dart services then like others have had to do to try and get improvements, start telling the politicians to actually pay for the infrastructure required when they come to the door near election time. infrastructure which will be needed whether intercity trains exist or not.

40 k is the average IC usage. If IC trains where not running in Dublin we could run more darts and commuter trains. I don't see how one walking across a platform would be a major issue. We could still run express commuter trains. The Dart is the least subsistised service so all that about contributing least is pure nonsense. I agree infrastructure is the ultimate answer but IR needs to show the demand is there and as such they should be focused on their highest usage services. The services with the opportunity for explosive growth.

end of the road · 02-11-2017 6:55pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

40 k is the average IC usage.

according to you and an average is only an average and doesn't give a full picture of actual service usage. it's like the rail census taking place on a day before a big storm in november.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

If IC trains where not running in Dublin we could run more darts and commuter trains.

no you couldn't as the IC trains would still have to run into the greater dublin area to get to their depots for servicing and other regular maintenence. it's not cost effective to build a line by line rail care depot. the only way more suburban and darts are running and to a decent effective service is with extra infrastructure.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I don't see how one walking across a platform would be a major issue.

it would be an issue because it would be for an extremely slower journey and a cross platform change won't always be possible for operational reasons.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

We could still run express commuter trains.

no point. the IC trains can do it. they are running into the dublin area anyway so may as well continue to cary passengers.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Dart is the least subsistised service so all that about contributing least is pure nonsense.

it's not pure nonsense. the railway is for all it's users, not just you.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I agree infrastructure is the ultimate answer but IR needs to show the demand is there and as such they should be focused on their highest usage services. The services with the opportunity for explosive growth.

they don't need to show the demand is there. it's been known since the 1970s that the demand is there for increased infrastructure within the greater dublin area, whether intercity trains run or not.

tabbey · 02-11-2017 6:57pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

40 k is the average IC usage. If IC trains where not running in Dublin we could run more darts and commuter trains.

You could not run more commuter trains, because the line is choked up with DART trains ambling along.

Apart from the GSWR corridor, inter city and outer suburban trains are unreasonably slowed down by so many stopping trains.

If we had more four tracking, we could have a full service of DART and fast trains, serving the travelling public, and generating rail service usage. Until this is addressed, people will continue to use cars, thus clogging the streets and making bus services unattractive and leading to more cars. It is a vicious circle.

As for terminating inter-city trains at Greystones or Balbriggan, this would close the railway beyond Wicklow and Drogheda. Services have lost most of their patronage over the last ten years due to their low speeds, any further deceleration and inconvenience would be the final nail in their coffin.

LeinsterDub · 02-11-2017 7:06pm

end of the road wrote: »

according to you and an average is only an average and doesn't give a full picture of actual service usage.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/everything-you-need-to-know-as-irish-rail-to-commence-strike-action-on-wednesday-36273607.html

I'm pretty sure that the definition of average is that it gives an average picture.

LeinsterDub · 02-11-2017 7:21pm

tabbey wrote: »

You could not run more commuter trains, because the line is choked up with DART trains ambling along.

Apart from the GSWR corridor, inter city and outer suburban trains are unreasonably slowed down by so many stopping trains.

If we had more four tracking, we could have a full service of DART and fast trains, serving the travelling public, and generating rail service usage. Until this is addressed, people will continue to use cars, thus clogging the streets and making bus services unattractive and leading to more cars. It is a vicious circle.

As for terminating inter-city trains at Greystones or Balbriggan, this would close the railway beyond Wicklow and Drogheda. Services have lost most of their patronage over the last ten years due to their low speeds, any further deceleration and inconvenience would be the final nail in their coffin.

I was under the impression that mainline trains where impacting dart frequencies. Doesn't the mainline support 20 trains per hour? Yet we only have 4 to 6 darts? Frequency is key. Surely more people would use the service if it was conveniently time even if a bit slower.

Isambard · 02-11-2017 7:33pm

end of the road wrote: »

.

nope. intercity trains are intercity trains. they offer direct services to the capital from the major towns and cities, including providing express services from some of the suburban stations.

.

and there lies the problem. They aren't really Intercity trains (clue in the name) they are semi-fast trains. It's not their fault, we just don't have the best distribution of population, so there isn't a decent load to be had "intercity" so stops enroute at fairly small towns need to be made.

end of the road · 02-11-2017 7:37pm

Isambard wrote: »

and there lies the problem. They aren't really Intercity trains (clue in the name) they are semi-fast trains. It's not their fault, we just don't have the best distribution of population, so there isn't a decent load to be had "intercity" so stops enroute at fairly small towns need to be made.

well that is the brand IE gives all the services outside suburban services and dart.
but yes i agree with your point, so we should call them regional trains instead.

bk · 03-11-2017 11:41am

This is why I say that the DU tunnel is going to regularly only used by DART. The reality is DART is a very different type of service to commuter rail and intercity rail and the two don't really mix well. This is why they are having such trouble brining in 10 minute DART's.

If you spend 4 billion building DU, then you really will want DART in it having a 5 minute or less frequency to justify the cost. If you do that then you won't be able to have commuter and intercity trains using the same tunnel on a regular basis.

Ideally you want to have a separate tracks like in Berlin, there each of the services have their own separate, non shared tracks. You have:
- U-Bahn
- S-Bahn
- Regional Trains, intercity, freight.

This means the different type of services don't interfere with one another. Unfortunately for various reasons we don't really have the space to do this, so we have ended up with a terrible sub-optimal solution. The truth is that DART is a nasty "cheap" hack on top of the heavy rail network. And I'm not so certain it makes sense to continue to extend it along more heavy rail lines, it may just make them even less reliable.

I do wonder if eventually we will come to a point where we have to decide between DART and intercity services and if the Dublin network might not be given over to DART completely and the intercity trains terminated outside the city. I think some tough decisions about rail in Ireland are ahead of us.

end of the road · 03-11-2017 3:27pm

bk wrote: »

This is why I say that the DU tunnel is going to regularly only used by DART. The reality is DART is a very different type of service to commuter rail and intercity rail and the two don't really mix well. This is why they are having such trouble brining in 10 minute DART's.

If you spend 4 billion building DU, then you really will want DART in it having a 5 minute or less frequency to justify the cost. If you do that then you won't be able to have commuter and intercity trains using the same tunnel on a regular basis.

Ideally you want to have a separate tracks like in Berlin, there each of the services have their own separate, non shared tracks. You have:
- U-Bahn
- S-Bahn
- Regional Trains, intercity, freight.

This means the different type of services don't interfere with one another. Unfortunately for various reasons we don't really have the space to do this, so we have ended up with a terrible sub-optimal solution. The truth is that DART is a nasty "cheap" hack on top of the heavy rail network. And I'm not so certain it makes sense to continue to extend it along more heavy rail lines, it may just make them even less reliable.

I do wonder if eventually we will come to a point where we have to decide between DART and intercity services and if the Dublin network might not be given over to DART completely and the intercity trains terminated outside the city. I think some tough decisions about rail in Ireland are ahead of us.

only if the plan is to kill off long distance rail, which is all that would be achieved. i certainly wouldn't be surprised if there was such a plan but time will tell.
there is ultimately no benefit or justification for such a plan especially as there would be no benefit for the users and it still won't change the reality extra infrastructure has to be paid for.
the dart will likely be no faster either as all you are really doing is replacing limited stop trains with stopping services, and assuming long distance services even survive, you now have a slow, downgraded journey for everyone as the users of long distance services now have to make the rest of their way on a very slow all stopps service just because, rather then their comfortable limited stop services. especially when they have given plenty over the years for dart in the form of slower journey times as it is . not forgetting the intercity trains will still have to run to a depot and be swapped out so now they are running empty on top.
if the government aren't willing to invest in infrastructure then shame on it and anyone who currently doesn't make public transport an election issue need to start making it an election issue. however parts of the rail network won't be standing for severely downgraded services just to give 1 small part more when there are solutions that can benefit everybody which need to be implemented anyway.
the railway, like any public service, has to try and work as a whole for all of it's users, not just a small few. a railway that works as a whole is what we must strive for.

bk · 03-11-2017 4:07pm

end of the road wrote: »

only if the plan is to kill off long distance rail, which is all that would be achieved. i certainly wouldn't be surprised if there was such a plan but time will tell.

Shrug, sometimes you need to break a couple of eggs to make an omelette.

The reality is intercity rail really doesn't carry that many people and alternatives exist. DART carries far more people and is far more nationally important. We really need to get over this Irish idea that you can't change anything if it makes life a little harder for a minority of people. We really are going to have to get used to the idea of the greater good.

If making life a little harder for people on the Rosslare line means a greatly improved DART service, that carries far more people then lost on the Rosslare line, then so be it.

Obviously I'm not talking about services into Hueston, as that is quad tracked anyway, so it can mostly remain as is, with a little tweaking.

Obviously services into Connolly are a bigger issue. It will be difficult, but you can probably triple or even quad track it with a bit of effort. It will require some expensive CPO's, etc. but is probably doable.

However I don't see what can be done about the Rosslare line and I think it will be a bullet which eventually will just have to be dealt with unfortunately.

BTW I don't wish for this, but I think it is inevitable as Dublins population continues to grow and densify.

Idbatterim · 03-11-2017 4:26pm

the new luas extension alone will probably carry more passengers than IR entire intercity does...

end of the road · 03-11-2017 4:35pm

bk wrote: »

Shrug, sometimes you need to break a couple of eggs to make an omelette.

not in this case as nothing would be gained.

bk wrote: »

The reality is intercity rail really doesn't carry that many people and alternatives exist.

it caries a good amount and has the potential for more. the alternatives existing obviously can't don't and won't meet the needs of those users. so essentially, we end up with more cars on the road. sounds bad to me and you. it's not what we want.

bk wrote: »

DART carries far more people and is far more nationally important.

it's important, but not nationally more important then the rest of the network. definitely not so important that the rest of the network should have no service for it. other rail users have a right not to lose their services or have a severely downgraded service to facilitate it anymore then is actually necessary. they facilitate it enough with increased journey times so have done enough. the railway now has to do it's bit. the people have done enough. such wouldn't be tolerated in other countries so we should be no different.

bk wrote: »

We really need to get over this Irish idea that you can't change anything if it makes life a little harder for a minority of people.

we really don't, at least not on this issue. i'm not putting up with worse services for someone else when we can all have a good service. i pay both tax contributions and fares to the railway as well.

bk wrote: »

We really are going to have to get used to the idea of the greater good.

not when the greater good brings no benefit.

bk wrote: »

If making life a little harder for people on the Rosslare line means a greatly improved DART service, that carries far more people then lost on the Rosslare line, then so be it.

not so be it and the users of the rosslare line will do whatever we legally can to make things very very difficult. we won't be giving up our direct services which dispite them leaving a lot to be desired, meet our needs, for a low grade all stops service which will take a lot longer.

bk wrote: »

However I don't see what can be done about the Rosslare line and I think it will be a bullet which eventually will just have to be dealt with unfortunately.

there may be an attempt to deal with it, via implementing a severly downgraded service in the form of a change for change sake, meaning our service is effectively every single station to dublin, but it won't be implemented without a fight as the attacks on services won't stop at the railway for wexford.

bk wrote: »

BTW I don't wish for this, but I think it is inevitable as Dublins population continues to grow and desnify.

to be fair, i didn't suggest you wanted it, i should make that clear. i do believe an attempt will be made, but as i said, those of us who use it won't stand for it. we gave enough. it's now up to the railway to come up with a solution that can benefit us all.

bk · 03-11-2017 4:53pm

end of the road wrote: »

not in this case as nothing would be gained.

Nothing to be gained from doubling the frequency (and thus passenger capacity) of DART by moving to a 10 minute of even faster frequency!!

I'm sorry but you are dead wrong about that. I'm sorry but that makes simply no sense at all.

end of the road wrote: »

it caries a good amount and has the potential for more. the alternatives existing obviously can't don't and won't meet the needs of those users. so essentially, we end up with more cars on the road. sounds bad to me and you. it's not what we want.

But less cars in the city due to increased DART frequency and capacity. That is the whole point of this idea, to massively increase DART frequency and capacity in the congested city center where rail based transport is most needed.

end of the road wrote: »

we really don't, at least not on this issue. i'm not putting up with worse services for someone else when we can all have a good service. i pay both tax contributions and fares to the railway as well.

But how? I honestly don't see how you can increase the frequency of the DART along the Rosslare line while keeping intercity trains on it. They are simply incompatible services and there is no space that I can see for quad tracking along that line.

Maybe they can scrap a 10 minute DART frequency together and the odd intercity train. But it isn't going to stop here, Dublin population is just going to continue to grow and eventually we will probably have to look at 5 minute DARTs, etc.

It might not happen for the next 10 years or even 20, but it is obvious it will happen some day.

end of the road wrote: »

not when the greater good brings no benefit.

Again how is not doubling the frequency and capacity of DART not a benefit!

end of the road wrote: »

not so be it and the users of the rosslare line will do whatever we legally can to make things very very difficult. we won't be giving up our direct services which dispite them leaving a lot to be desired, meet our needs, for a low grade all stops service which will take a lot longer.

A mere 10,000 people a day use the Rosslare line, we aren't talking about massive numbers here.

end of the road wrote: »

to be fair, i didn't suggest you wanted it, i should make that clear. i do believe an attempt will be made, but as i said, those of us who use it won't stand for it. we gave enough. it's now up to the railway to come up with a solution that can benefit us all.

If their is a reasonable alternative then great, let us know. But as you say, I suspect that eventually a curtailed service with a transfer will eventually be offered. Yes of course, users of these services will complain, but likely will be drowned out by the applause from the users of DART services.

tabbey · 03-11-2017 5:13pm

Any civilised and efficient state provides a rail service for its outer suburbs as well as inner suburbs.

We are currently pretending to provide such a service on a route designed for Victorian conditions. This was sufficient until the 1950s. Four tracking should have been done before electrification. Leaving it to now has made it more expensive due to town planners allowing development adjacent to the tracks. Dublin City, Fingal and DLR are all guilty here, as are the bosses of Irish Rail / CIE, and Dept of Transport.

The longer we wait for infrastructure, the more expensive it becomes and the more dysfunctional the city becomes. If a third world city is what the people and their elected representatives want, that is what they will get.

If we want a world class city which can attract well paid jobs for the benefit of all the country, we must take action now, it is long overdue.

end of the road · 03-11-2017 5:17pm

bk wrote: »

Nothing to be gained from doubling the frequency (and thus passenger capacity) of DART by moving to a 10 minute of even faster frequency!!

I'm sorry but you are dead wrong about that. I'm sorry but that makes simply no sense at all.

it's debatible as to whether it would be faster seeing as you would be replacing limited stop with an increased all stops service.

bk wrote: »

But less cars in the city due to increased DART frequency and capacity. That is the whole point of this idea, to massively increase DART frequency and capacity in the congested city center where rail based transport is most needed.

we need less car usage over all. more cars on the roads outside the city is not exceptible either when we can all have a good reliable rail service and decrease car usage across the board.

bk wrote: »

But how? I honestly don't see how you can increase the frequency of the DART along the Rosslare line while keeping intercity trains on it. They are simply incompatible services and there is no space that I can see for quad tracking along that line.

ultimately that's not the problem of the users of the rosslare line or the dart users. that's the railways problem to deal with, in a way that can benefit all users or at least keep the status quo for users of the rosslare line while ideally allowing for the 10 minute frequency. but downgrading rosslare services into irrelevance won't be tolerated by it's users of which i am one.

bk wrote: »

Maybe they can scrap a 10 minute DART frequency together and the odd intercity train. But it isn't going to stop here, Dublin population is just going to continue to grow and eventually we will probably have to look at 5 minute DARTs, etc. It might not happen for the next 10 years or even 20, but it is obvious it will happen some day.

whatever happens, the fact is extra infrastructure is going to have to be paid for. including along part of the eastern line compulsory purchases or not. that is regardless of whether there is even a rosslare service in years to come or not.

bk wrote: »

A mere 10,000 people a day use the Rosslare line, we aren't talking about massive numbers here.

those are regular users, however there are a lot more using it. either way, it's not up to them to have their service severely downgraded for others.

bk wrote: »

If their is a reasonable alternative then great, let us know. But as you say, I suspect that eventually a curtailed service with a transfer will eventually be offered. Yes of course, users of these services will complain, but likely will be drowned out by the applause from the users of DART services.

a curtailed service with a transfer may be offered, but it won't be excepted. a full direct service will be forced back in using any means that can be legally used.
the applause of the dart users won't be enough to drown out the complaints as the complainers can and will make things difficult as possible within legitimate means. wexford won't have any of it's public services attacked, not without a fight. it's already under the constant threat of it's services being attacked and the people say no .

bk · 03-11-2017 5:43pm

tabbey wrote: »

We are currently pretending to provide such a service on a route designed for Victorian conditions. This was sufficient until the 1950s. Four tracking should have been done before electrification. Leaving it to now has made it more expensive due to town planners allowing development adjacent to the tracks. Dublin City, Fingal and DLR are all guilty here, as are the bosses of Irish Rail / CIE, and Dept of Transport.

In fairness the issue seems to be a bit more then just some houses built along the line, if it was just that I'd agree with you completely, we could just CPO them. The bigger problem is more the sea on one side and big ass hills on the other side of the track that would make quad tracking, or laughably even double tracking very expensive and difficult for what is a line that basically services a few towns with a seriously small catchment area.

end of the road wrote: »

it's debatible as to whether it would be faster seeing as you would be replacing limited stop with an increased all stops service.

You keep going on about "faster" and you keep ignoring doubling frequency and capacity. There really is no debate.

Urban mass transit services like DART aren't about speed as such, they are more about high frequency and high capacity. The DART speed BTW is right about the same as London Underground, New York Subway and is actually a good bit faster then Paris Metro.

Of course frequency also plays a big part in overall journey time. If you turn up at a DART station having just missed the DART and the next one is 20 minutes, that is a long wait. Now if the wait is just 10 minutes, that isn't so bad and your overall journey time will be 10 minutes faster, possibly 20 minutes both ways if you are really unlucky. Make DARTs every 5 minutes and now you have a really quality mass transit system. No one minds waiting 5 minutes for the next DART/bus.

Of course the people on the Rosslare line would end up with a worse service (if they are heading to the city center and not somewhere else along the DART line), but it would be more then balanced out by the greater number of people on the DART line having a much better DART service.

end of the road wrote: »

we need less car usage over all. more cars on the roads outside the city is not exceptible either when we can all have a good reliable rail service and decrease car usage across the board.

Less cars in rural Ireland is a lost battle I'm afraid. If we want less cars the focus will need to be on greater densification of our cities and focusing on how quality public transport services (like frequent DARTs) for those people.

end of the road wrote: »

ultimately that's not the problem of the users of the rosslare line or the dart users. that's the railways problem to deal with, in a way that can benefit all users or at least keep the status quo for users of the rosslare line while ideally allowing for the 10 minute frequency. but downgrading rosslare services into irrelevance won't be tolerated by it's users of which i am one.

You say that, but haven't offered any actual solutions.

end of the road wrote: »

whatever happens, the fact is extra infrastructure is going to have to be paid for. including along part of the eastern line compulsory purchases or not. that is regardless of whether there is even a rosslare service in years to come or not.

Sure, but at what cost? This thread is about maximizing the current rail infrastructure. Terminating Rosslare trains at Greystones and thus allowing for doubling or even tripling of DARTS would massively increase the capacity of the line, with a relatively small cost (just extra DART trains). That is what maximising it.

end of the road wrote: »

a curtailed service with a transfer may be offered, but it won't be excepted. a full direct service will be forced back in using any means that can be legally used.
the applause of the dart users won't be enough to drown out the complaints as the complainers can and will make things difficult as possible within legitimate means. wexford won't have any of it's public services attacked, not without a fight. it's already under the constant threat of it's services being attacked and the people say no .

Sure, of course, they have every right to complain and I completely support their right to do so.

But a major job of government is to listen to such complaints, but to also balance them with what would be gained and look at the bigger picture.

flas · 03-11-2017 6:10pm

I look at this forum often and laugh to myself sometimes when people call to scrap all trains except dart. Currently on the 5 o'clock from Connolly,getting off in longford,get this service every single week,and every single week I have to stand until maynooth and then after maynooth SOMETIMES there is space to sit on the ground.sometimes. Its the same every single sunday,and if the train line was upgrade to have the journey time cut,double tracked and upgraded for faster service you can bet your bottom dollar on most of the people on this train would move back down the country and commute daily,and you would have solid numbers on this service every day of the week.
It takes investment and forward thinking which is completely screwed in this country.

I did transport operations and logistics in college,our lecture for railway operations regularly told us to view Irish rail as a lost cause, that the money or will just is not there to do it properly.

LeinsterDub · 04-11-2017 12:11am

end of the road wrote: »

it's debatible as to whether it would be faster seeing as you would be replacing limited stop with an increased all stops service.

we need less car usage over all. more cars on the roads outside the city is not exceptible either when we can all have a good reliable rail service and decrease car usage across the board.

ultimately that's not the problem of the users of the rosslare line or the dart users. that's the railways problem to deal with, in a way that can benefit all users or at least keep the status quo for users of the rosslare line while ideally allowing for the 10 minute frequency. but downgrading rosslare services into irrelevance won't be tolerated by it's users of which i am one.

whatever happens, the fact is extra infrastructure is going to have to be paid for. including along part of the eastern line compulsory purchases or not. that is regardless of whether there is even a rosslare service in years to come or not.

those are regular users, however there are a lot more using it. either way, it's not up to them to have their service severely downgraded for others.

a curtailed service with a transfer may be offered, but it won't be excepted. a full direct service will be forced back in using any means that can be legally used.
the applause of the dart users won't be enough to drown out the complaints as the complainers can and will make things difficult as possible within legitimate means. wexford won't have any of it's public services attacked, not without a fight. it's already under the constant threat of it's services being attacked and the people say no .

This is exactly what's wrong with IÈ. Never, never, never terrified of change.

end of the road · 04-11-2017 12:29am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

This is exactly what's wrong with IÈ. Never, never, never terrified of change.

how so. change is happening on a second by second basis.

LeinsterDub · 04-11-2017 12:31am

end of the road wrote: »

how so. change is happening on a second by second basis.

Every change suggested here and I mean in general not just this thread you vigorously oppose. Can you put forward your thoughts on maximising the current network?

end of the road · 04-11-2017 12:48am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Every change suggested here and I mean in general not just this thread you vigorously oppose.

that's certainly news to me. i'm sure i have supported most suggestions on this thread. i probably even have suggested some of them myself over the years.

LeinsterDub · 04-11-2017 8:27am

end of the road wrote: »

that's certainly news to me. i'm sure i have supported most suggestions on this thread. i probably even have suggested some of them myself over the years.

And yet you've just refused to list any

uxiant · 04-11-2017 12:08pm

bk wrote: »

Sure, but at what cost? This thread is about maximizing the current rail infrastructure. Terminating Rosslare trains at Greystones and thus allowing for doubling or even tripling of DARTS would massively increase the capacity of the line, with a relatively small cost (just extra DART trains). That is what maximising it.

On top of this I'm looking at the time table and the Rosslare train takes 34 minutes to travel from Bray to Pearse. The preceding DART train takes 36 minutes and the subsequent train is 38 minutes. The service is laughably slow and there is no way it's possible to segregate the service from DART reducing journey times without emptying the infrastructure budget and destroying far more important projects.

Terminating Rosslare trains at Bray to allow an increased frequency on the DART makes sense. Given the tens of thousands daily that would benefit from an increased frequency on the DART line, it really isn't asking a lot for passengers on the Rosslare service to switch from the bay platform at Bray onto the DART with little change to journey times.

end of the road · 04-11-2017 3:08pm

uxiant wrote: »

On top of this I'm looking at the time table and the Rosslare train takes 34 minutes to travel from Bray to Pearse. The preceding DART train takes 36 minutes and the subsequent train is 38 minutes. The service is laughably slow and there is no way it's possible to segregate the service from DART reducing journey times without emptying the infrastructure budget and destroying far more important projects.

the infrastructure budget would not be emptied as there is money for all the projects needed.

uxiant wrote: »

Terminating Rosslare trains at Bray to allow an increased frequency on the DART makes sense. Given the tens of thousands daily that would benefit from an increased frequency on the DART line, it really isn't asking a lot for passengers on the Rosslare service to switch from the bay platform at Bray onto the DART with little change to journey times.

terminating rosslare trains short of the capital makes no sense and we will not allow it without a fight. it is a lot to ask for us to switch from the bay platform at Bray onto the DART for a hugely downgraded service and a lot slower journey and we won't stand for it.

LeinsterDub · 04-11-2017 4:04pm

end of the road wrote: »

terminating rosslare trains short of the capital makes no sense and we will not allow it without a fight. it is a lot to ask for us to switch from the bay platform at Bray onto the DART for a hugely downgraded service and a lot slower journey and we won't stand for it.

It's been highlighted terminating at Bray makes sense for both services and could lead to a frequency increase for both services with little or no journey time increase. The reply? Never! Never! Never!

bk · 04-11-2017 4:11pm

end of the road wrote: »

the infrastructure budget would not be emptied as there is money for all the projects needed.

Really? and what magic money tree does all this money exist on?

It would cost hundreds of millions, if not billions to blast through the hills to do quad track this line. Not reasonable for the relatively small numbers of passengers that would benefit from it.

end of the road wrote: »

terminating rosslare trains short of the capital makes no sense and we will not allow it without a fight. it is a lot to ask for us to switch from the bay platform at Bray onto the DART for a hugely downgraded service and a lot slower journey and we won't stand for it.

And this is why we can't have nice things in Ireland. Always someone complain about every new development that will benefit lots of other people. Rosslare passengers might have to walk 10 meters to change train, something done all over the world, but no we will be out on the streets fighting these improvements!

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Del.Monte · 04-11-2017 5:38pm

We don't need a Ryanair type inter-city rail service that brings you to a station near to the one that you want to arrive at. Terminating the Rosslare train anywhere other than Connolly would further deter passenger traffic, but then that is what those pushing the idea want.

Stephen15 · 04-11-2017 5:50pm

uxiant wrote: »

On top of this I'm looking at the time table and the Rosslare train takes 34 minutes to travel from Bray to Pearse. The preceding DART train takes 36 minutes and the subsequent train is 38 minutes. The service is laughably slow and there is no way it's possible to segregate the service from DART reducing journey times without emptying the infrastructure budget and destroying far more important projects.

Terminating Rosslare trains at Bray to allow an increased frequency on the DART makes sense. Given the tens of thousands daily that would benefit from an increased frequency on the DART line, it really isn't asking a lot for passengers on the Rosslare service to switch from the bay platform at Bray onto the DART with little change to journey times.

Not ideal really speaking I've yet to come across an Intercity or a regional train in any other city or country that drops you outside the city meaning you have change it certainly wouldn't encourage more passengers on the the wexford line.

An ideal situation would be triple or quadruple tracking which would be costly this would allow the Dart to become an S-Bahn style service. I was in Berlin recently and the S-Bahn ran parallel for a considerable part of the journey to the Regionalbahn, Intercity and freight lines but the S-Bahn lines were completely separate.

GerardKeating · 04-11-2017 5:51pm

uxiant wrote: »

On top of this I'm looking at the time table and the Rosslare train takes 34 minutes to travel from Bray to Pearse. The preceding DART train takes 36 minutes and the subsequent train is 38 minutes.

So, you are saying that the Rosslaire train adds 2 minutes to the DART that get stuck behind it, so (given 4 trains a day) that's 4 DARTS delayed daily in each direction.

uxiant wrote: »

The service is laughably slow and there is no way it's possible to segregate the service from DART reducing journey times without emptying the infrastructure budget and destroying far more important projects.

2 minutes is not "laughably slow" and if you look at all the Rosslaire trains for the day, there is little or no impact on the DARTS.

uxiant wrote: »

Terminating Rosslare trains at Bray to allow an increased frequency on the DART makes sense. Given the tens of thousands daily that would benefit from an increased frequency on the DART line, it really isn't asking a lot for passengers on the Rosslare service to switch from the bay platform at Bray onto the DART with little change to journey times.

Removing 4 Rosslaire trains will make little or no difference to the service, other that driving more customers to Bus/Car

Now a short passing loop just after Dun Laoghaire station might be an idea, your Rosslaire trains could overtake a DART and get to Pearse/Connolly a little faster, and perhaps we could have the odd DART Express, going all stops Bray to Dun Laoghaire, and non-stop to Lansdowne maybe

LeinsterDub · 04-11-2017 6:10pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

We don't need a Ryanair type inter-city rail service that brings you to a station near to the one that you want to arrive at. Terminating the Rosslare train anywhere other than Connolly would further deter passenger traffic, but then that is what those pushing the idea want.

The service would still bring you to Connolly but instead of having to wait 3 hours for the Wexford train a half an hour service could be run. The only difference would be stepping out of one train and on to another

Maximizing the current Rail Infrastructure

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