4 rail lines face possible closure

LeinsterDub

Mehapoy wrote: »

Why don't they open these lines up to a private operator, let them lease the rolling stock from Irish rail, give them the same subvention as on the cork\dublin line and see if they can make it viable, either as a commuter, tourist etc. Basis, see what the private sector can do with it free from the shackles or Irish rail management and unions.

The private sector can't make money shuttling around a handful of people unless we are taking about about some Soccer Billionaire who want to run a railway for the laugh too.

source

There it's one very simple reason that the Limerick to Ballybrophy line doesn't work as a commuter line and that is the timetable.

Monday to Friday the first train going to Limerick leaves Nenagh at 07:45 and doesn't get to Limerick until 08:45.

The last train leaves Limerick at 16:55!!!!!!!

How can it operate as a commuter service when the times don't even suit those who are commuting?

AngryLips

I feel like they should privatise the Wexford line. It's a standalone line with little interaction with the rest of the network, bar interacting with Dart trains on the run into Pearse. It would be interesting to see if any private enterprises would be interested in making it work and how they would fare in comparison. Since IE want to close it anyway, there would be little reason to object.

LeinsterDub

AngryLips wrote: »

I feel like they should privatise the Wexford line. It's a standalone line with little interaction with the rest of the network, bar interacting with Dart trains on the run into Pearse. It would be interesting to see if any private enterprises would be interested in making it work and how they would fare in comparison. Since IE want to close it anyway, there would be little reason to object.

Any do tell will this private train be able to pick me up at Lesson St, run every half hour , drop me to Enniscorthy in less than 2 hours and cost less than 16 euro? If not I'm not interested.

Dardania

Surprised to see a subvention of 70c needed per passenger journey on the DART... easy fix to add E1 to journey costs there, to wipe face

MagicHumanDoll

I might be reading it wrong but I'm assuming that the lines themselves stay open and the routes close? I get the Rosslare-Dublin a lot and closing it all the way to Gorey makes no sense in terms of the port, commuting etc. But preventing trains doing a route of specifically Gorey-Rosslare does.

bk

MagicHumanDoll wrote: »

I might be reading it wrong but I'm assuming that the lines themselves stay open and the routes close? I get the Rosslare-Dublin a lot and closing it all the way to Gorey makes no sense in terms of the port, commuting etc. But preventing trains doing a route of specifically Gorey-Rosslare does.

No, it would be full line closure (though they would obviously keep the lines for future reopening if needed).

Mehapoy

bk wrote: »

Mehapoy wrote: »

Why don't they open these lines up to a private operator, let them lease the rolling stock from Irish rail, give them the same subvention as on the cork\dublin line and see if they can make it viable, either as a commuter, tourist etc. Basis, see what the private sector can do with it free from the shackles or Irish rail management and unions.

The unions would lose their minds and go out on strike and shut down the whole network for weeks on end.

Anyway privates wouldn't be interested in these lines. They are only interested in profitable lines. Rural lines that meander slowly through the countryside with low population densities will simply never be profitable, no matter who is running them.

Never know unless you try it...I'm sure there are private operators that would give it a go...if not then you know its not and will never be viable

bk

Mehapoy wrote: »

Never know unless you try it...I'm sure there are private operators that would give it a go...if not then you know its not and will never be viable

Well one issue you would have is that the existing staff on the line would have to be transfered over to the private company on the same pay and t&c's and would still be part of their union. See TUPE rules.

So you would unlikely to see big savings.

LeinsterDub

Mehapoy wrote: »

Never know unless you try it...I'm sure there are private operators that would give it a go...if not then you know its not and will never be viable

The Wexford alignment basically needs to be dumped and started again. A private operator can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear

MagicHumanDoll

bk wrote: »

No, it would be full line closure (though they would obviously keep the lines for future reopening if needed).

Okay thanks for clarification. Very frustrating for me personally if that came to fruition.

flazio

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The Wexford alignment basically needs to be dumped and started again. A private operator can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear

Irish Rail haven't made a new route from scratch... ever.

A2LUE42

Got train from Birdhill to Limerick a few weeks ago and both carriages were almost full when the train arrived from Nenagh. So not sure where the figures for usage are coming from or was it that the day I picked was the one day that everyone travelled?

hytrogen

bk wrote:

In Germany they have very strict planning permission. In rural areas you can only build within 1 km of a town or village, basically walking easy distance. As a result they have much higher density of people living near stations making it more suited to rail.
If the Germans were too come here, they would laugh at us, shut down half the rail network and level half of the rural homes and build nice apartment blocks within walking distance of the stations in towns.

I'm curious as to why we're comparing Germany (circa 95m population) and not Britain (circa 65m) our nearer neighbour and once architect to our infrastructure? Leave aside Brexitology for a moment..
The Brits have IMO way stricter rules in rural development than anywhere else, equally they too have higher density patterns living near train stations as well as small medium industry.
I very much doubt the Germans would shut everything down overnight as you suggest, they love trains and anything public transportation, especially ones you can take bicycles on into rural areas easily, rather they would look at the overall picture and develop upon that as they successfully did postwar..

D.L.R.

hytrogen wrote: »

I'm curious as to why we're comparing Germany (circa 95m population) and not Britain (circa 65m) our nearer neighbour and once architect to our infrastructure? Leave aside Brexitology for a moment..

Because Germany are our masters.

hytrogen

Middle Man wrote:

...and why can't we roll out more freight services via the private sector - I recently saw that the rail freight service linking both Mayo and Dublin was still in operation - new services such as this might help to keep lines like Limerick Jct. to Waterford (Belview Port) open.

Totally agree, there are too many trucks on the road now, it's getting too dangerous for car users, our carbon footprint is going through the roof and employment in stevedoors is in the decline or going out to foreign cheaper labour.
There are several international shipping companies looking at the Waterford Rosslare link as a potential option to get across to the UK and Europe post Brexit as an option instead of Antwerp or London Gateway.

PropJoe10

A2LUE42 wrote: »

Got train from Birdhill to Limerick a few weeks ago and both carriages were almost full when the train arrived from Nenagh. So not sure where the figures for usage are coming from or was it that the day I picked was the one day that everyone travelled?

I use the Wexford route regularly and quite often there's at least 60-75 people getting on in Wexford, more in Enniscorthy and more again in Gorey. Which makes me ask where exactly these loss figures are coming from - plus, how much they are actually paying the skeleton staff on this service per hour, that's causing such a massive yearly loss. Surely to God, operating costs can't be that high for a diesel train with no more than 5 staff on it at a time.

Plus, even if they decommission this line, they're obliged to maintain it in working order for a certain number of years, like they are with the Rosslare-Waterford route (which had an absolutely ridiculous timetable that was utterly pointless for anyone that might've wanted to use it as a commuter option).

Without knowing the details in full, it just seems that Irish Rail is incredibly badly run.

Grab All Association

There's potential for the Limerick-Waterford line. It beats the 55 even with a 30 minute wait at Limerick Junction. Bring in a timetable of at least 8 services a day reduce the wait to 5-10 minutes at LJ and change the layout. A Galway to Waterford service would work well. Not likely to happen though. Bus Éireann have cut services to Cahir, Tipp, Carrick and Clonmel, that it could be a viable replacement.

As for the Nenagh line. dispose of the day to day running of it. If NRP think they can run it then why not just hand it over. There's single car 2700 rolling stock in inchicore that can be put back in to service and permantly loaned to NRP.

bk

PropJoe10 wrote: »

I use the Wexford route regularly and quite often there's at least 60-75 people getting on in Wexford, more in Enniscorthy and more again in Gorey. Which makes me ask where exactly these loss figures are coming from - plus, how much they are actually paying the skeleton staff on this service per hour, that's causing such a massive yearly loss. Surely to God, operating costs can't be that high for a diesel train with no more than 5 staff on it at a time.

Rail requires a lot of behind the scenes work to keep it running safely. Lots of maintenance, signalling, etc.

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Plus, even if they decommission this line, they're obliged to maintain it in working order for a certain number of years, like they are with the Rosslare-Waterford route (which had an absolutely ridiculous timetable that was utterly pointless for anyone that might've wanted to use it as a commuter option).

While they have to keep the alignment, they don't have to maintain it to the levels of safety standards required for passengers services. Depending if they continue freight ops or not, then maintenance isn't much more then a bit of weed whacking every few years.

They could save a lot. No need to staff, clean, maintain stations. No staff for trains, no signalling staff. Maintenance and engineering staff either left go or moved to increasing services on busier routes, etc.

LeinsterDub

PropJoe10 wrote: »

I use the Wexford route regularly and quite often

Honest question why. The bus is simply a better service?

PropJoe10 wrote: »

there's at least 60-75 people getting on in Wexford, more in Enniscorthy and more again in Gorey.

How many of them paid?

andrewfaulk

hytrogen wrote: »

Totally agree, there are too many trucks on the road now, it's getting too dangerous for car users, our carbon footprint is going through the roof and employment in stevedoors is in the decline or going out to foreign cheaper labour.
There are several international shipping companies looking at the Waterford Rosslare link as a potential option to get across to the UK and Europe post Brexit as an option instead of Antwerp or London Gateway.

Think you've been reading to many nonsense articles in the mainstream media hytrogen.. No freight company that I am aware of is looking st switching business to waterford or Rosslare ports, in fact the trend is the opposite.. C2C line/CLDN pulled out of Waterford, Rosslare and Cork in 09/10 and focused on Dublin Rotterdam and Dublin zeebrugge.. these services are thriving and far larger than container ops in waterford.. no one in ireland uses London gateway for European business, its all direct to Rotterdam, Antwerp or Zeebrugge from Dublin or Cork

murphaph

hytrogen wrote: »

I'm curious as to why we're comparing Germany (circa 95m population) and not Britain (circa 65m) our nearer neighbour and once architect to our infrastructure? Leave aside Brexitology for a moment..
The Brits have IMO way stricter rules in rural development than anywhere else, equally they too have higher density patterns living near train stations as well as small medium industry.
I very much doubt the Germans would shut everything down overnight as you suggest, they love trains and anything public transportation, especially ones you can take bicycles on into rural areas easily, rather they would look at the overall picture and develop upon that as they successfully did postwar..

There are loads of closed railways on Germany (Google stillgelegte Bahnstrecken etc. for plenty of images) but most of them are in rural areas. Planning in Germany is stricter in the sense that building a dwelling house outside of a town or village (the boundaries of which are strictly defined) is completely forbidden.

ClovenHoof

I say let Irish Rail go to the wall and foreclose on it completely.

There will be a few months - maybe a year - of difficulty while new drivers and so on are being trained and imported from overseas. Nothing buses can't handle. The DART is becoming increasingly irellevant, as it is heading under Irish Rail anyway, who are still selling off rail land in central Dublin (Boston Sidings) for property development. They made it clear that the rail system is basically an enabler of their endless desire to be landlords and nothing else.

The unions killed off the DART Underground and the Metro North announcement is coming soon.

It'll be worth the short term pain for a long term functional rail network run for commuters and not unions.

Let CIE/Irish Rail die, so Public Transport can Live.

MagicHumanDoll

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Honest question why. The bus is simply a better service?

Student here. Use Train every fortnight to get to and from Dublin-Rosslare.

I don't mind paying extra couple quid because I use it infrequently, I like the space, I like trains in general and get quite ill on buses (thus find them uncomfortable)

No doubting buses make more sense 9/10 times for commuters, but some people might genuinely like the train more. Sort of the same for people who rather getting boats to France rather than fly.

Hope that sorta helps explain it!

D.L.R.

It might help Rosslare's cause if the trains actually connected with the ferries. Duh.

And a rail link to Dublin Port would be useful too, but no that's too much common sense isn't it. Can't have Dublin Bus losing their shuttle bus cash cow.

LXFlyer

D.L.R. wrote: »

It might help Rosslare's cause if the trains actually connected with the ferries. Duh.

And a rail link to Dublin Port would be useful too, but no that's too much common sense isn't it. Can't have Dublin Bus losing their shuttle bus cash cow.

It might help if you brought yourself up to date before posting incorrect information.

The Stena Line sailings between Rosslare and Fishguard have been rescheduled since May, with the result that 3 out of the 4 Stena Line sailings now have rail connections at Rosslare.

Dublin Bus have not operated the Irish Ferries shuttle bus since last March - Mortons have it now.

MayoSalmon

So what are the odds on the rail extension to Navan being built anytime soon?

D.L.R.

LXFlyer wrote: »

It might help if you brought yourself up to date before posting incorrect information.

The Stena Line sailings between Rosslare and Fishguard have been rescheduled since May, with the result that 3 out of the 4 Stena Line sailings now have rail connections at Rosslare.

About time. What about Pembroke I wonder.

LXFlyer wrote: »

Dublin Bus have not operated the Irish Ferries shuttle bus since last March - Mortons have it now.

Not really the point. Much like our Airport, we have a major Port not served by rail. No ambition.

cml387

I love railways, and believe that everything should be done to keep them if they are viable.

But I know from seeing it nearly every day that a people carrier could be used to transport the numbers using the service from Limerick Junction to Waterford.

Everyone in Clonmel who uses the train drives to Thurles or Kilkenny.

Close it down and make it into a cycleway and it's usage would balloon out of all proportion.

LXFlyer

D.L.R. wrote: »

About time. What about Pembroke I wonder.



Not really the point. Much like our Airport, we have a major Port not served by rail. No ambition.

Well if Irish Ferries retimed their sailings, yes.

Not much point though as the trains at Pembroke Dock don't connect with sailings, there's no sail/rail option available, it's a much longer route by sea and rail than via Fishguard, and there is a long walk to the station from the port at Pembroke Dock.

As for a rail connection to Dublin Ferryport - let's be realistic about this. The numbers of foot passengers are tiny and by no means justify building a rail connection. There are far more deserving projects for investment in railways than that.