Wiring immersion timer

Geimhreadh

Hi all
Got an immersion timer from Woodies but have question about the wiring.

There is live in and out neutral in and out and earth.

Not sure how to wire it for bath and sink?

xl500

Geimhreadh wrote: »

Hi all
Got an immersion timer from Woodies but have question about the wiring.

There is live in and out neutral in and out and earth.

Not sure how to wire it for bath and sink?

You dont wire the timer for Bath Sink
The original Dual immersion Switch remains and you insert Timer in Supply to it

So Timer Switches Supply to Immersion Switch you still select Bath/Sink as before

Hope that makes sense

Wearb

Does the timer have a separate timer setting for bath and sink?

aujopimur

Wearb wrote: »

Does the timer have a separate timer setting for bath and sink?

No, the timer feeds the imm. switch.

Geimhreadh

Thanks all, xl500 has I think.

Wire time to the mains and from there to the dual swirth.

leave the dual switch set to one and either bath or sink.

Then the time switch will control the power to the dual switch.

Sound about right?

I ll include pics for anyone wondering about this once I have it done if Boards lets me.

xl500

Geimhreadh wrote: »

Thanks all, xl500 has I think.

Wire time to the mains and from there to the dual swirth.

leave the dual switch set to one and either bath or sink.

Then the time switch will control the power to the dual switch.

Sound about right?

I ll include pics for anyone wondering about this once I have it done if Boards lets me.

Thats it exactly Timer only switches mains to original Dual Switch you decide if you want to have it on Sink /Bath and when timer comes on that is the Element that will heat

Geimhreadh

Nice one, hopefully have it done tomorrow.

Bought an older house last year and slowly working my way through replumbing the place where I can.

I expect I ll be on here a lot for advice ha ha.

Thanks again.

Tom44

Slightly illegal to alter immersion wires, even if your a qualified plumber, let alone a DITer.

Simple job I know, but ment to be RECI Electrician.

Sleeper12

Tom44 wrote:

Slightly illegal to alter immersion wires, even if your a qualified plumber, let alone a DITer.

Even illegal for non reci electricians Tom. This is in the same class as an electric shower.
It's also one of the jobs that you need to have certed by reci

Geimhreadh

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Even illegal for non reci electricians Tom. This is in the same class as an electric shower.
It's also one of the jobs that you need to have certed by reci

Is there a list of household electrical tasks that illegal to be done without an electrical?

The way I have been working it is the wiring is already present and it's a matter of swapping g out a fitting I ll go ahead. If new wiring is needed then it's call in the electrician.

xl500

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Topics/Electricity/Inspection_and_Testing/Works_Needing_Certification/

To Say its illegal is a big Statement and as can be seen from above link this area is very unsatisfactory

RGI is very defined and clear ANY work on gas requires RGI

But As Far as I know RECI Certification is certainly not needed for minor works under the current Legislation

Sleeper12

Geimhreadh wrote: »

Is there a list of household electrical tasks that illegal to be done without an electrical?

The way I have been working it is the wiring is already present and it's a matter of swapping g out a fitting I ll go ahead. If new wiring is needed then it's call in the electrician.

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do it. I do some of these jobs myself at home. It's up to you. Personally I believe if we give advice here on how to do it then we should at least inform you that it's legal or illegal. Then you have all the information.

There are better informed posters then me that can tell you what falls under "minor works". Anything to do with water is a no no. This would be almost anything in a bathroom inc changing "certain" bulbs. replacing an electric fan heater etc. Anything to do with water needs to be wired back to a RCBO afaik. The idea of the newer laws is to get a REC in for these jobs & he will insist on fitting proper safety fittings lick RCBOs that mightn't have been the norm when the appliance was originally installed. So they are slowly improving safety in our homes. If we homeowners keep replacing our own electric showers etc then our fuseboard may never be brought up to todays safety standards. Also your REC will test everything from fusebox to the immersion & give you a safety cert

Sleeper12

xl500 wrote: »

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Topics/Electricity/Inspection_and_Testing/Works_Needing_Certification/

To Say its illegal is a big Statement and as can be seen from above link this area is very unsatisfactory

RGI is very defined and clear ANY work on gas requires RGI

But As Far as I know RECI Certification is certainly not needed for minor works under the current Legislation

But anything to do with an immersion is not minor works & must be certed.

Geimhreadh

Thanks all for the advice. Only starting out diy and the more I do right at the start the better.

Immersion need electricians to prove electrical safety which can't be done in the same manner by anyone else, it is not about the simplicity of the job it's about safety safety safety, they pull a large load for a long time.

The last immersion I wired was in a high end cylinder pre-wired and fitted which I was fitting in my parents much loved home, long story short I badly flooded their house(and I have a mother who still can reach for the wooden soon:() the village (as well as my family) think I'm a ejit all because of a loose neutral (so the manufacturers told me) on the pre-wired immersion that generated so much heat it melted the solder holding in the immersion element.

I'v wiried thousands of immersion as a cylinder manufacturers engineer but it was my experience in my mothers house that showed my the ease at which it goes wrong and now I insist the work is checked by a sparks or is done by a sparks purely for safety reasons.

Sleeper12

gary71 wrote: »

Immersion need electricians to prove electrical safety which can't be done in the same manner by anyone else, it is not about the simplicity of the job it's about safety safety safety, they pull a large load for a long time.

The last immersion I wired was in a high end cylinder pre-wired and fitted which I was fitting in my parents much loved home, long story short I badly flooded their house(and I have a mother who still can reach for the wooden soon:() the village (as well as my family) think I'm a ejit all because of a loose neutral (so the manufacturers told me) on the pre-wired immersion that generated so much heat it melted the solder holding in the immersion element.

I'v wiried thousands of immersion as a cylinder manufacturers engineer but it was my experience in my mothers house that showed my the ease at which it goes wrong and now I insist the work is checked by a sparks or is done by a sparks purely for safety reasons.

My mother is 87 & can still reach for the wooden spoon.

EHP

Geimhreadh wrote:

Is there a list of household electrical tasks that illegal to be done without an electrical?

This is not a full list but should help guide people. As a note a qualified electrician cannot complete restricted electrical works unless reci registered even in there own home.

If you have to remove the cover off the fuse board it's restricted works and needs a reci.

Any electrical works in any of the bathroom zones is restricted works and needs a reci. If your working on a bathroom light that is outside the zones and it shares a supply with an extract fan for example within the zones then it falls under restricted works also.

Adding a socket/light to an existing circuit or replacing a socket/light is minor works and doesn't need a reci

You can replace oven/hob under minor works once like for like, watch this as a lot of new appliances now have larger kw ratings and may need a change of cable which would bring it back under restricted works.

If wiring a heating system a reci has to supply the spur outlet but from there on any competent person is allowed wire the system

EHP

EHP wrote: »

This is not a full list but should help guide people. As a note a qualified electrician cannot complete restricted electrical works unless reci registered even in there own home.

If you have to remove the cover off the fuse board it's restricted works and needs a reci.

Any electrical works in any of the bathroom zones is restricted works and needs a reci. If your working on a bathroom light that is outside the zones and it shares a supply with an extract fan for example within the zones then it falls under restricted works also.

Adding a socket/light to an existing circuit or replacing a socket/light is minor works and doesn't need a reci

You can replace oven/hob under minor works once like for like, watch this as a lot of new appliances now have larger kw ratings and may need a change of cable which would bring it back under restricted works.

If wiring a heating system a reci has to supply the spur outlet but from there on any competent person is allowed wire the system

Thanks for the clarification.

The only group other than sparks that can prove competents are RGI's so heating wiring is purely the domain of sparks and RGIs.

xl500

Sleeper12 wrote: »

But anything to do with an immersion is not minor works & must be certed.

I wouldnt be too sure about that If you can replace a Switch or Socket or Hob under minor Works

I would like to see a Link to show where it is restricted I think this area is very Grey People including myself may like it to be restricted but under the Current Regs is it can anyone show a Link to prove this

https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/faq/minor-electrical-works/

TAKEN FROM ABOVE LINK:
What are Minor Electrical Works?

Posted on June 8, 2017
Minor Electrical Works generally involve the “like for like” replacement of switches, sockets, lighting fittings and/or additions to an existing circuit. The work must be in compliance with the National Wiring Rules. See document CER/13/147 for a definition of Minor Electrical Works.



https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/07/restrictedWorks.pdf

2.5 Minor Electrical Works
The CER when defining Controlled Electrical Work recognised that a certain amount of Do-It-Yourself (or “DIY”) electrical installation work is a feature of electrical installations in domestic premises in this country and generally involves “like for like” replacements of switches, sockets, lighting fittings and/or additions to an existing circuit. This work must also be in compliance with the National Wiring Rules. However, Minor Electrical Works are currently outside the scope of Controlled Electrical Works and also, under the definition, outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works.
The CER is of the view, having given consideration to the responses received to its consultation on this issue, that Minor Electrical Works do not impose a significant safety risk on the consumer, and therefore has decided they will be exempt from the scope of Controlled and Restricted Electrical Works. Additionally, restricting Minor Electrical Works would achieve very limited public safety benefits, whilst imposing a disproportionate cost on customers.
However, minor works may be included in the future based on assessment of risks or evidence to the contrary.
Therefore, Minor Electrical Works can be undertaken by a non-registered party, and do not require the issuance of a Certificate. Examples of Minor Electrical Works include the following:
 Replacement of an electrical accessory such as light switch;
 Replacement or relocation of light fitting where the existing circuit is
retained; and
 Provision of an additional socket to an existing radial circuit.
To summarise, the regulatory framework for electrical safety up to now before the introduction of Restricted Works involves the certification of Controlled Electrical Works (compulsory if completed by REC) and Minor Electrical Works (non-compulsory), as illustrated in Figure 2.5.1.16 Under the regulatory regime, Controlled Electrical Works can be certified by either a REC or through a Third Party Inspection, while Minor Electrical Works can be completed by either a REC or by a suitably trained person or competent person, and do not legally require the issuance of Certificate.

xl500

gary71 wrote: »

https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/07/restrictedWorks.pdf

2.5 Minor Electrical Works
The CER when defining Controlled Electrical Work recognised that a certain amount of Do-It-Yourself (or “DIY”) electrical installation work is a feature of electrical installations in domestic premises in this country and generally involves “like for like” replacements of switches, sockets, lighting fittings and/or additions to an existing circuit. This work must also be in compliance with the National Wiring Rules. However, Minor Electrical Works are currently outside the scope of Controlled Electrical Works and also, under the definition, outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works.
The CER is of the view, having given consideration to the responses received to its consultation on this issue, that Minor Electrical Works do not impose a significant safety risk on the consumer, and therefore has decided they will be exempt from the scope of Controlled and Restricted Electrical Works. Additionally, restricting Minor Electrical Works would achieve very limited public safety benefits, whilst imposing a disproportionate cost on customers.
However, minor works may be included in the future based on assessment of risks or evidence to the contrary.
Therefore, Minor Electrical Works can be undertaken by a non-registered party, and do not require the issuance of a Certificate. Examples of Minor Electrical Works include the following:
 Replacement of an electrical accessory such as light switch;
 Replacement or relocation of light fitting where the existing circuit is
retained; and
 Provision of an additional socket to an existing radial circuit.
To summarise, the regulatory framework for electrical safety up to now before the introduction of Restricted Works involves the certification of Controlled Electrical Works (compulsory if completed by REC) and Minor Electrical Works (non-compulsory), as illustrated in Figure 2.5.1.16 Under the regulatory regime, Controlled Electrical Works can be certified by either a REC or through a Third Party Inspection, while Minor Electrical Works can be completed by either a REC or by a suitably trained person or competent person, and do not legally require the issuance of Certificate.

Exactly the point I was making it states Examples which means its not a definitve list also Earlier It was stated a Hob could be replaced Like for Like its not in the List of Examples above and Examples are exactly That only Examples

So if Replacing an Immersion Sw is Restricted Works a Link to show That would be great

I am not trying to argue with you But I do Genuinely believe its a mess and not in any Way as Clear As RGI

Sleeper12

xl500 wrote:

I wouldnt be too sure about that If you can replace a Switch or Socket or Hob under minor Works

I am very positive about this. I have this in writing from the CER. I'm a member of HAPAI and they have regular sit down meetings with RECI safety Ireland and this has been confirmed by them too

xl500

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I am very positive about this. I have this in writing from the CER. I'm a member of HAPAI and they have regular sit down meetings with RECI safety Ireland and this has been confirmed by them too

Of Course I Bow to your In Writing From CER etc

But If its not in the Regs or clearly defined in Legislation then its open to interpretation

I believe they Should have made all Electrical Work Restricted as Per RGI but Currently the idea that minor Works which are undefined and left up to someone to interpret is crazy

And of course If someone is Going to do some Work in a house it should be CLEAR what is allowed

RGI is Crystal Clear no work on Gas

But Electrical No Work but maybe you can do some small stuff and here are some examples but if your not sure check the regs but they are just as Vague

Again Regs Should be clearly Available and If someone can show a Link to where it states

Sleeper12

xl500 wrote:

RGI is Crystal Clear no work on Gas

We're actually looking for something like RGI where we plumbers & electricians are both allowed work on electric showers and immersions. For plumbers to be allowed train so that they can install & test showers and immersions. The change in the law took people's livelihoods away. If you google electric shower repair you'll be lucky to see an electrician on the first 2 pages. Triton, mira, Aqualisa etc don't have any RECs repairing or replacing showers. The new laws have put an entire industry on the wrong side of the law.
Most electricians don't want to look at replacing an immersion & yet it's illegal for a plumber to wire in a replacement.

xl500

Sleeper12 wrote: »

We're actually looking for something like RGI where we plumbers & electricians are both allowed work on electric showers and immersions. For plumbers to be allowed train so that they can install & test showers and immersions. The change in the law took people's livelihoods away. If you google electric shower repair you'll be lucky to see an electrician on the first 2 pages. Triton, mira, Aqualisa etc don't have any RECs repairing or replacing showers. The new laws have put an entire industry on the wrong side of the law.
Most electricians don't want to look at replacing an immersion & yet it's illegal for a plumber to wire in a replacement.

I know thats what you Think But where Does it say its illegial for a plumber to replace an immersion and wire the new one into existing circuit

I think the Whole thing is a mess

Sleeper12

xl500 wrote:

I know thats what you Think But where Does it say its illegial for a plumber to replace an immersion and wire the new one into existing circuit

HAPAI were told only REC can work on an immersion. They were told this at a sit down meeting with RECI. They say that it's treated the same as a electric or power shower. No alterations or modifications from the trip switch to the immersion. I'm pretty sure they said that an impedance test was required & as we cannot look at the fusebox then we cannot test it. We are no longer able take a spur for a pump or power shower. Only A REC can do this work.

xl500 wrote:

I think the Whole thing is a mess

I totally agree with you. My electrician was going to a RECI roadshow so I asked him to find out about electric shower. The RECI inspector told him it's a grey area and I'll be fine to carry on.
Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing imo. Sadly we'll are left in the firing line if something goes wrong.

xl500

Sleeper12 wrote: »

HAPAI were told only REC can work on an immersion. They were told this at a sit down meeting with RECI. They say that it's treated the same as a electric or power shower. No alterations or modifications from the trip switch to the immersion. I'm pretty sure they said that an impedance test was required & as we cannot look at the fusebox then we cannot test it. We are no longer able take a spur for a pump or power shower. Only A REC can do this work. QUOTE



To Be Fair they would say that after all They are the Body representing the Contractors and its in their interest to restrict as much as possible

But they dont draft the Regs and I still cannot see anywhere in Regs where changing Immersion Sw is restricted and therin Lies the problem

And look at this thread from a couple of years ago on this forum again complete opposite view so something is wrong wheras Gas Regs are quite clear

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=91926508

EHP

Sleeper12 wrote:

HAPAI were told only REC can work on an immersion. They were told this at a sit down meeting with RECI. They say that it's treated the same as a electric or power shower. No alterations or modifications from the trip switch to the immersion. I'm pretty sure they said that an impedance test was required & as we cannot look at the fusebox then we cannot test it. We are no longer able take a spur for a pump or power shower. Only A REC can do this work.

I could be wrong on this but as far as the written rules go if an immersion is in a location that falls under part 7 only then it is restricted works and this would only happen where the hotpress door opens into the bathroom area or in a milking parlour.
As a member of RECI take it from me that the inspectors in my opinion don't fully understand the rules and often misquote them and regularly get mixed up between controlled and restricted works.
However every time I change an immersion I test the rcd and loop impedance, you would be surprised how often rcds fail and how many houses aren't neutralised. I don't believe making work like changing an immersion etc restricted is the way forward, I think making periodic inspections mandatory would be the best way forward.

xl500

EHP wrote: »

I could be wrong on this but as far as the written rules go if an immersion is in a location that falls under part 7 only then it is restricted works and this would only happen where the hotpress door opens into the bathroom area or in a milking parlour.
As a member of RECI take it from me that the inspectors in my opinion don't fully understand the rules and often misquote them and regularly get mixed up between controlled and restricted works.
However every time I change an immersion I test the rcd and loop impedance, you would be surprised how often rcds fail and how many houses aren't neutralised. I don't believe making work like changing an immersion etc restricted is the way forward, I think making periodic inspections mandatory would be the best way forward.

Exactly But I think the real confusion arises on what constitutes minor works anything that is open interpretation is always going to cause problems your impression of minor works could be different to mine

It should be clear in Regs what is allowed and more importantly what is not

EHP

xl500 wrote:

It should be clear in Regs what is allowed and more importantly what is not

Most of what is not allowed is clear when you read the definition of controlled and restricted works the confusion is where people were only reading controlled works definition and not realising the small difference between the two.

xl500

EHP wrote: »

Most of what is not allowed is clear when you read the definition of controlled and restricted works the confusion is where people were only reading controlled works definition and not realising the small difference between the two.

Well I cannot see where replacing an immersion Sw on an existing circuit would be restricted

Can you Link to anything