Wiring immersion timer

Sleeper12

EHP wrote:

I could be wrong on this but as far as the written rules go if an immersion is in a location that falls under part 7 only then it is restricted works and this would only happen where the hotpress door opens into the bathroom area or in a milking parlour. As a member of RECI take it from me that the inspectors in my opinion don't fully understand the rules and often misquote them and regularly get mixed up between controlled and restricted works. However every time I change an immersion I test the rcd and loop impedance, you would be surprised how often rcds fail and how many houses aren't neutralised. I don't believe making work like changing an immersion etc restricted is the way forward, I think making periodic inspections mandatory would be the best way forward.

100% behind periodic inspections. I have seen some terrible thing. 2.5 twin & earth running a 9kw shower. Block connectors wrapped up in insulation tape on 6mm for showers.
Only a few weeks ago I was replacing a power shower. Looking for the spur I went to the hot press. They had a cylinder with two side immersions. Both were wired to a single light switch. When switched on both elements would come on together. I never found a spur. As the reporter in the massage parlour used to say I made my excuses and left.
I'm a plumber so there must be hundreds of dangerous electrical things that I haven't noticed over the years in houses.
I saw a house fire from a badly wired immersion in an attic a few years ago. The family had to move into a hotel for 8 weeks (I think).
Inspections should be mandatory and if the government won't do it I'd love to see the insurance industry refuse insurance without an inspection every 5 years or so.

xl500

Sleeper12 wrote: »

100% behind periodic inspections. I have seen some terrible thing. 2.5 twin & earth running a 9kw shower. Block connectors wrapped up in insulation tape on 6mm for showers.
Only a few weeks ago I was replacing a power shower. Looking for the spur I went to the hot press. They had a cylinder with two side immersions. Both were wired to a single light switch. When switched on both elements would come on together. I never found a spur. As the reporter in the massage parlour used to say I made my excuses and left.
I'm a plumber so there must be hundreds of dangerous electrical things that I haven't noticed over the years in houses.
I saw a house fire from a badly wired immersion in an attic a few years ago. The family had to move into a hotel for 8 weeks (I think).
Inspections should be mandatory and if the government won't do it I'd love to see the insurance industry refuse insurance without an inspection every 5 years or so.

Agree But thats a different point I think the whole Construction industry needs an independent inspectorate look at what was built in the last Boom half of them are Dangerous
And now the recent Schools have got defective Fire Systems its Crazy

When I was serving my Time a Long time Ago there were Inspectors but of Course Fianna Fail and their Developer friends changed that to Self certification
And as They say "Self Certification is No Certification"

The only way forward is to have an inspectorate to protect the Consumer and ensure Regulations are adhered to thats how its Done in Most Developed Countries

brightspark

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Inspections should be mandatory and if the government won't do it I'd love to see the insurance industry refuse insurance without an inspection every 5 years or so.

That would be a significant cost to each home owner (if the tests are carried out correctly)

Perhaps making it mandatory when selling (like the BER) might be more practical.

However just like the BER there will be a race to the bottom for pricing resulting in shortcuts being taken.

Sleeper12

xl500 wrote:

The only way forward is to have an inspectorate to protect the Consumer and ensure Regulations are adhered to thats how its Done in Most Developed Countries

Agree but we still should have periodic inspections to protect DIY warrior's from themselves. There was a threat in diy a few days ago. Someone decided to remove their chimney /fireplace. Two posters pointed out that he might be removing a supporting structure. Not making fun of the op on the thread, he just did not know what he was doing but some people need protecting from themselves

Tom44

Geimhreadh wrote: »

Hi all
Got an immersion timer from Woodies but have question about the wiring.

There is live in and out neutral in and out and earth.

Not sure how to wire it for bath and sink?

No offence to OP
But this is the reason for restricted work, he's not just replacing like for like with a good background knowledge of electrical.
He's altering a heavy load supply with questionable knowledge of electrics.

Fair play to him for asking and forgive me for using it as a bad example.


As for us professionals, as a plumber I too have got conflicting info from RECI when I rang them for clarification.
Luckily it doesn't affect me in my line of work, but it's a nightmare for plumbers that specialize in showers and immersions.

brightspark

I cannot find any regulations stating that only a REC can install an immersion switch (or that a cowboy can't install a "hob" as per the advert)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/si/264/made/en/print

Notice of the making of this Statutory Instrument was published in

“Iris Oifigiúil” of 19th July, 2013.

The Commission for Energy Regulation, in exercise of the powers conferred on it under section 9E of the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 (No. 23 of 1999), as amended by the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006 (No. 40 of 2006), hereby make the following regulations with respect to which, pursuant to section 9E(1) of that Act, the matters raised in the public consultation process carried out by the Commission under section 9E(1) of that Act were taken account of by the Commission, and the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources having approved the draft of the regulations caused a draft of the regulations to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and a resolution approving the draft has been passed by each such House pursuant to section 9E(2) of that Act:

General

1. These Regulations may be cited as the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 (Restricted Electrical Works) Regulations 2013.

2. These Regulations come into operation on 1 October 2013

3. In these Regulations, except where the context otherwise requires—

“Act” means the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 (No. 23 of 1999);

“Circuit” means part of an Electrical Installation supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrents by a single protective device;

“Commercial Premises” means any building or land or part of a building or land used for the purposes of carrying on a trade or business but does not include that part of a building or land which is a Domestic Property;

“Domestic Property” means:

(a) A dwelling house, flat or maisonette, including:

(i) any surgery, consulting room, office or other accommodation not exceeding 50m2 in total forming part of it and used in a commercial capacity;

(ii) any part of its out-buildings or curtilage used for non-commercial purposes; or

(iii) its connection to the electricity network;

Or

(b) A caravan or motor caravan intended for habitation purposes including its curtilage, used for non-commercial purposes, excluding electrical circuits and equipment for automotive purposes;

“Distribution Board” means consumer unit or fuse-board which is an assembly of protective devices, including two or more fuses or circuit breakers, arranged for the distribution of electrical energy to final circuits or to other distribution boards;

“Electrical Installation” means an assembly of electrical equipment with wiring or cable, to fulfil one or more specific purposes and having associated characteristics;

“Main Protective device” means a device at the main supply point designed to provide protection against over current by isolating the fault from the electricity supply to protect equipment and appliances from being damaged.

“National Rules for Electrical Installations” means the current issue of the rules which are prepared by the Electro Technical Council of Ireland (or other body as the case may be).

4. (1) For the purposes of these Regulations and section 9E(1) of the Act, the phrase ‘Restricted Electrical Works’ has the same meaning as and shall be construed as a reference to ‘Designated Electrical Works’.

4. (2) For the purposes of section 9E(1) of the Act ‘Designated Electrical Works’ means:

(a) the installation, commissioning, inspection or testing of a new Electrical Installation which is fixed, fastened or mounted or otherwise secured so that its position does not change and requires connection or re-connection to the distribution network or the transmission network, as the case may be;

(b) the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case may be;

(c) the installation or replacement of one or more circuits in an Electrical Installation, including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits on a Distribution Board; or

(d) the inspection, testing or certification of, or reporting on, existing Electrical Installations covered by Part 6 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations;

in a Domestic Property.

4. (3) For the purposes of section 9E(1) of the Act, ‘Designated Electrical Works’ does not include:

(a) Electrical works in potentially explosive atmospheres;

(b) Electrical works in a Commercial Premises setting including MV and HV connection and installations;

(c) Electrical works on a construction site;

(d) Electrical works within exhibitions, shows and stands;

(e) Electrical works on agricultural and horticultural installations;

(f) Electrical works on public lighting and associated cabling;

(g) Minor electrical works including the replacement of an electrical accessory such as a light switch, the replacement or relocation of a light fitting where the existing circuit is retained, the provision of an additional socket to an existing radial circuit, or electrical works which do not require the issuance of a completion certificate under section 9D of the Act.

For some reason that last line is missing from Safe-Electrics version

https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/support/restricted-controlled-electrical-works/

Minor electrical works which include very small works such as like-for-like replacements (e.g. switches), moving light fittings without affecting the circuit and adding a socket to an existing circuit.

Now as an immersion (unlike an electric shower) isn't installed in a bathroom, Part 7 doesn't seem to apply. So no certification is required by the CER.

Unless someone has other documentation?

NOTE this does not mean that the person doing the work shouldn't be competent

Sleeper12

brightspark wrote:

Now as an immersion (unlike an electric shower) isn't installed in a bathroom, Part 7 doesn't seem to apply. So no certification is required by the CER.

An impedance test isn't required for the immersion?

brightspark

Sleeper12 wrote: »

An impedance test isn't required for the immersion?

I haven't been able to find a source, but the same logic would dictate an impedance test should be needed for an additional socket etc?

Of course any good electrician should carry out the test anyway, but if no certification is needed for the work, then where does the test result get recorded?

s8n

This has escalated quickly !

EHP

brightspark wrote:

I cannot find any regulations stating that only a REC can install an immersion switch (or that a cowboy can't install a "hob" as per the advert)

To my knowledge replacing an immersion is not restricted works and the hob isn't either. That cowboy add in my opinion was made by cowboys and a waste of time and money but that's probably for a different tread.

As for impedance tests if not restricted works then it's not required, I still do it as it can show up any issues with the earth and neutralising.

xl500

EHP wrote: »

To my knowledge replacing an immersion is not restricted works and the hob isn't either. That cowboy add in my opinion was made by cowboys and a waste of time and money but that's probably for a different tread.

As for impedance tests if not restricted works then it's not required, I still do it as it can show up any issues with the earth and neutralising.

As I said Earlier I never Believed it Was Restricted or Illegal as was stated

I was the original who told the OP how to wire the Switch and It took off from there

Of course someone should be Competent but its almost impossible to Gauge Competence Look at our Politicans

Sleeper12

xl500 wrote: »

As I said Earlier I never Believed it Was Restricted or Illegal as was stated

I was the original who told the OP how to wire the Switch and It took off from there

Of course someone should be Competent but its almost impossible to Gauge Competence Look at our Politicans

I fully accept I was wrong replacing an immersion isn't restricted. Without trying to open a can of worms Is adding a timer restricted?

xl500

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I fully accept I was wrong replacing an immersion isn't restricted. Without trying to open a can of worms Is adding a timer restricted?

Again I would See it as not Being Restricted under the Current Regs ie does not need a cert

NOW as Pointed out if Timer is in a Bathroom Zone then its Different

Its very difficult to interpret Regs and even Regular calls to RECI still causes Confusion so naturally People err on Safe side and say oh thats restricted works but is it really under the regs !!!

brightspark

xl500 wrote: »

NOW as Pointed out if Timer is in a Bathroom Zone then its Different.

AFAIK putting the timer in a bathroom zone would be in breach of the regulations no matter who installs it

xl500

brightspark wrote: »

AFAIK putting the timer in a bathroom zone would be in breach of the regulations no matter who installs it

Yes I agree Thats Why I said in reply to asking if installing Timer was restricted

"Again I would See it as not Being Restricted under the Current Regs ie does not need a cert

NOW as Pointed out if Timer is in a Bathroom Zone then its Different"

I meant there that someone pointed out earlier that if in a Bathroom Zone it would be Restricted otherwise not

BigAl81

Has anyone wired in a timer that has Wi-Fi and can be controlled by your phone that you'd recommend?

EHP

BigAl81 wrote:

Has anyone wired in a timer that has Wi-Fi and can be controlled by your phone that you'd recommend?

Haven't done this yet but have been looking at using eph ember controls with a 20 amp contactor to switch the immersion. Waiting to hear back from another supplier to see if salus controls can offer an alternative as already control my oil boiler with salus app.

Dylanbridges

How's it going. Did you ever get any pictures of this? Want to add timer to my immersion switch also.

Thanks

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122180976#Comment_122180976

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058336560/smart-switch-for-immersion/p1