How relevant to you is the controversy over feminism?

iptba

Single mothers are sidelined as modern feminist view prioritises role of fathers

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/single-mothers-are-sidelinedas-modernfeministview-prioritisesrole-of-fathers-40727086.html

"Going on and on about how important fathers are in children’s lives is an insult to women who feel a sense of self-affirmation from raising kids solo."

As with most modern feminism the above is just irritating "But what about meeeeeeeeee??????" nonsense.

RabbleRouser2k

As someone I know summarised it before, when you see many of these groups, either online or in reality, calling for equality... they're very often not calling for themselves to be treated in a fair manner.

Rather, they're calling for special treatment. To be given special 'privileges' others don't get.

You see it very quickly happen with the more recent 'movements' (insert any group you wish, it falls under it). It's why I'm wary of any movement. Charities in the last couple of years have given me reason to be.

One eyed Jack

The idea of feminism being either relevant, or controversial, thankfully escapes me, but I happened across this video on YouTube (as you do), and thought it was worth sharing.

I couldn’t get through it with a straight face, and still can’t a number of views later, but when I imagine the idea of feminism either being relevant or controversial, it takes a video like this to be reminded that feminism should never be taken seriously 😁

https://youtu.be/5BWsFnLS-OY

iptba

Appalling behaviour in the arts ‘a reality that has been hiding in plain sight’

Limited opportunities and limited employers ‘create a fertile landscape for abuse’, report finds

[..]

Movements including Fair Plé, Mise Fosta, Safe Arts of Ireland emerged, focusing on women’s experiences of bullying and harassment in the wider arts sector. Irish Theatre Institute directors Siobhan Bourke and Jane Daly broadened their Speak Up initiative to make work safer, from theatre to the broader arts sector, with Department of Culture and Arts backing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/appalling-behaviour-in-the-arts-a-reality-that-has-been-hiding-in-plain-sight-1.4707299

Given all the focus has been on gender, it's interesting that a lot of the perpetrators were female:

The majority of these instances were reported to have taken place in the workplace.

According to the data, the perpetrators of these behaviours were more likely to be men (67%) than women (42%).2

2 Percentages do not add to 100 as respondents could make multiple selections and are counted for each selected category.

iptba

We can’t keep letting women politicians be abused online

Words of condemnation will not be enough to stem the tide of sexist, misogynistic abuse

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-can-t-keep-letting-women-politicians-be-abused-online-1.4739961

One comment underneath:

A significant body of research shows that male politicians receive more abuse than women

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/three-dimensions-of-gendered-online-abuse-analyzing-swedish-mps-experiences-of-social-media/F52E7389E355C1C78335B44B9E66811E

https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10.1140/epjds/s13688-020-00236-9

https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/145982/1/1904.11230v1.pdf

While the abuse is different in nature it’s no less pointed or vile- surprisingly, the impact is often greater on men.

We’ve seen this in the protests outside (male)politicians homes. Protests that certain media commentators have sought to shamefully justify. The author of this piece had the opportunity to shine a light on a very real problem, instead they decided to dive into an identity politics sewer. Once again the IT manages to shoot itself in the foot in chasing clicks

RabbleRouser2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243048#Comment_118243048

They're trying to win back the 'woke' audience. Some places won't stock them because of their 'going for clicks', even if it's in print.

iptba

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2021/1122/1262343-queen-bee-syndome-female-bosses-managers/

"Various researches have put across contradictory views about queen bee syndrome. Some researchers are of the view that queen bee syndrome among women at work is a myth. However, there are many other pieces of research that strongly support the theory of queen bee syndrome. An academic study in 2004 argued that queen bee syndrome may be the reason why women usually find it more stressful to work for female bosses than for male bosses."

So there are 2 possibilities:

Either female bosses don't treat other women less favourably. In which case, implicit bias training training them that they do could lead to a positive bias towards other female employees/male employees being put as a disadvantage.

Alternatively they do treat other women less favourably. Normally this would be seen as a negative attribute about a group that discriminates. But in this case, like in so many cases, women aren't held responsible for their actions:

"Rather than being a cause of gender inequality, research suggests that the queen bee phenomenon is generated because of the gender discrimination that women experience at work. Accordingly, queen bee behaviour is a response to the discrimination and social identity threat that women may experience in male-dominated organisations."

This assumes that we have to accept that women do experience gender discrimination due to men. So again, the conclusion proposed is we need to do more to help women.

iptba

Pay-walled

Anne Harris: Is Me Too showing the signs of a darker feminism?

Monica Lewinsky’s commitment to truth may be the corrective the movement needs

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/anne-harris-is-me-too-showing-the-signs-of-a-darker-feminism-1.4765563?localLinksEnabled=false

Feminism, in the beginning, was above all a sexual revolution – a challenge to the restrictive moralists of the 1950s in a glorious, Dionysian honouring of female sexuality, agency, desire and tolerance, which ultimately meant control of their own bodies.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive but it didn’t last long. All too soon, that global collective of feisty women fighting discrimination and sexism was replaced by a stern ideology: women were an “oppressed class”.

The pathology of this position, what Joan Didion called “wounded bird feminism” is that all women are framed in a permanent state of victimhood: innocent women at the mercy of predatory men.

---

But is Me Too showing the signs of a darker feminism, where unsatisfactory sex has been framed as assault or any criticism by a man automatically framed as misogyny?

Pussyhands

Lads, just can't bare to browse twitter today. The blatant anti man stance even from some men is disgusting.

"We can't even go for a run" they say.

I didn't hear many men say "we can't even walk home from a party" after Michael Tormey was shot dead outside his home randomly just last weekend. Why? Because statistically, the chances of it happening are so so low.

Even browsing the main thread in After Hours people are saying they're not going to go out alone if they can avoid it at all. That's like a dog running in front of your bike causing you to fall off and hit your head and then saying you'll never do it again because it's too risky, despite statistics showing it's an extremely rare incident.

I've read men saying women have it much harder than men. The statistics just don't back this up. Most men who die of murder are men. Most victims of attacks are men.

I've read men saying "men don't fear standing for a bus alone at night, women do." Since when did these people get into the mind of every man and woman in the country? There's women who go about their lives with no fear and there's men who do. Would I walk the streets of Dublin City alone at 3am at night? Would I fcuk. If I'm walking at night in an isolated place do I walk with my key in my fist in my pocket? Yes. Do I avoid gangs of youths if I'm by myself walking under a bridge? Yes.

"Men, do better" - Maybe the slogan should read "People, do better" as every human was born to a woman.

Pussyhands

The state of this tweet. I am embarrassed for him.

https://twitter.com/KeithyWalsh/status/1481404301666828289?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

RabbleRouser2k

Too many 'GOTI'S' on the internet. Going for clicks, likes etc.

(Guy/ Girl on the Internet = GOTI).

Social Media isn't real. It's not real life. Too many people shout their opinions into the void, thinking they matter. Or worse... they become incendiary.

I'm not even going to mention any individual's tweets or anything. I'm not giving them more oxygen.

Edit: MAde a mess of the acronym.

Vicxas

Far too many lads trying to absorb social media points lately, its awful to see.

sekiro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118467237#Comment_118467237

All you can do is just not let it get to you and ignore it.

A lot of people are always waiting for certain events to come along so they can really use it to justify their own prejudices and maybe even engage in a bit of bullying too. I don't doubt that they care about what has happened but they are just turning it into something petty and ugly and ultimately pointless.

It's a very negative side of social media, I think, if you can't bear to see people saying stuff like this and you feel some kind of need to set them straight or at least make sure an alternative view is put out there.

You know in yourself how well you are doing and if you can or cannot do better. People looking for you to grovel or take some ridiculous pledge are not doing that because they want a better world. They are doing it because the environment of social media demands trying to say the right thing in the right way in order to get some likes at least and to go viral at best.

A lot of people in modern society seem to think that all our problems could be solved by somehow getting into the minds of people and making it so that they can't even form the idea of doing bad things. I don't even know if this is based on scientific research or analysis. So in theory if every person in the world right now decided to never make a woman the butt of a joke or never sneakily check out a lady's cleavage and nudge your mate so he can glance too then I guess over a generation or two there would never be a human born who would commit some of these acts. I just don't know where the data comes from that proves that this will work? Are there killers out there who have admitted that locker room talk is the direct reason they committed these crimes?

I have no idea how common events like the recent one actually are in Ireland. Without that information it becomes a bit difficult to understand root causes and that makes it nearly impossible to come up with actual workable solutions.

Until that's possible the anti-men stuff is just noise. It's people who are angry expressing that anger in the only way they know how. Screaming into the void of the internet and hoping that others will like and retweet them so they can feel validated later on.

I think we can definitely ask what are men's social interactions with other men actually like and whether or not these interactions create a bad and potentially dangerous view of women. That's fair enough from a research perspective. Problem is that you have a lot of absolute nobodies on social media acting like they totally understand behavioral and criminal psychology when they know nothing. If you wanted to play that game you could just ask why are women raising such awful men.

sekiro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118467481#Comment_118467481

I don't know how someone can claim to be an advocate for good mental health while also saying that you might have some connection to a horrendous crime and a supposedly horrendous culture simply because of the way you were born. Telling people to shut the hell up and listen probably isn't good for anyone's mental wellbeing at all.

On the content of the tweet I'm not sure what men are supposed to talk about? I'm not exactly going to phone my brothers and my dad today and say just calling to check that you are all treating women well and aren't using any bad words such as bitch etc. Oh and definitely don't you be thinking that murder is OK.

Talk to other men. About what? It's not even really advice. Ah sure that's a tragic event. Yes, it is very tragic. OK, now what? Maybe guys with 26,400 followers who send out 8 tweets per day, every day, on average forget that for most men we probably have a much smaller social circle.

Is there really a legitimate point being made that the stereotypical "get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwich" comments are some kind of gateway to murder and sexual assault?

Is it really appropriate to say that we care about people's mental health before going out there are spreading a message that probably makes a lot of people feel alienated and guilty just because of the way they were born. Is it likely to be good for people's mental health if it's implied that they could have helped stop some pretty horrendous crimes if they'd just shut the hell up and do what they are told to do?

Just take the verbal attacks and stop moaning about them because other people have it worse. I would suggest that this is not good mental health advice.

Are "Men" even really a cohesive social group to the extent that they could all act in unison to achieve some grand goal like the end of all violence towards women? It's not like a workplace where everyone in attendance just agrees to not leave used coffee cups lying around. Or a football team where everyone agrees to wash their own kit. How do you even begin to take the concept of just not killing anyone and turn it into an achievable goal? The goal becomes impossible to achieve if some of the people doing these acts know that it's wrong and that it's a terrible thing to do, know that there will be dire consequences, but decide to go ahead and do it anyway.

What % of people in this country are murderers? I think even answering that question would reveal why people have such a hard time coming to terms with events like this. How can you even comprehend something that you would never, ever, do or even get remotely close to doing in your lifetime? Yet, as a man, I am expected to not only understand why it happens but know how to stop it from happening every again? Oh and I should feel bad for pointing out that it's nothing to do with me anyway? That's just not realistic.

Cosmo Kramer

Tough few weeks coming up for Irish men I would say. This was a horrible crime, and hopefully the murderer is brought to justice quickly.

Let's call a spade a spade though, there is a subsection of Irish society who are seeing this as nothing more than an opportunity to take a high moral ground and express their prejudices towards another group of people, 99.9% of whom have nothing to do with any of this beyond their gender assigned at birth. These people will do more harm than good, just need to hope that none of this leads to leads to a further deterioration in the mental health of thousands of younger Irish men.

iptba

The contrast between how much responsibility the genders are assigned can be noticeable.

For example, even when women kill their partners, people can suggest they may not be fully responsible e.g. maybe the partner did something to them in the past. For example, there was a call for any murders committed by women of the partners to be looked at again in the UK but not a similar call for men who killed their partners.

While men who themselves were in no way responsible for crimes such as the recent murder are assigned blame.

In general, agency/responsibility seems to be assigned more to men than women.

RabbleRouser2k

The vultures always come out in these situations. It's disturbing as all hell.

Notice tho, the one's who were getting all the 'twitter' likes have been fired from high profile gigs (some claim to have left, but I'd say it was 'leave before you're embarassed with a firing'... tho some didn't get the memo and were still fired).It's absolutely disgusting.

jo187

The conversation about men and what they are doing negatively towards women isn't necessarily about murder. As someone pointed out chances of being murdered are low.

This tragedy in Offaly has just upset people and highlighted for women a fear that they live with. Not necessarily murder but sexual assaults/harassment etc

If all these women are saying this is a problem maybe we should listen.

RabbleRouser2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118478461#Comment_118478461

Listen to what exactly? Listen to them tell of events that happened to them? If they want someone to listen, then talk to their local garda, or contact a solicitor.

Many of the events they spoke about happened in the past. If someone was harassed, or bullied, or worse... I feel sorry for them. But there are often statutes of limitations. When it's too late to pursue a case. And some times it can be a very simple case of misunderstanding.

I've seen many women claim to be 'harassed' when really they 'felt threatened' despite nothing being said. There's no legal precedent there.

jo187

Maybe listening we can realise behaviour we might do that's not appropriate or see/challenge that behaviour in friends.

Women might be telling you these experiences so you can understand where there coming from not necessarily for you to do anything about it.

sekiro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118478469#Comment_118478469

I agree with that. It can't do any harm to at least listen to others perspectives.

That has to be a two way street though.

For many people, even some high profile writers and media people, it is simply a one way street and it always will be.

They assumed the gender of the murderer before anyone was charged or convicted. They escalated that into conversations, more like rants, about all people in that gender. This in a society that is supposed to be moving away from gender stereotypes and binary identities and all that.

Could you imagine now if the murderer turns out to not be a man? Or they turn out to not identify as a man? Would the people so outraged in the last day or so even attempt to walk that back or would they just double down?

I'll certainly listen to people I respect. I won't be told to sit down and shut up by rude individuals who are just using the situation to vent their frustrations and expecting others to just sit there and take it.

Housefree

The Tommy Tiernan interview with Mary Cassidy last weekend (rte player) is worth a watch

RabbleRouser2k

A 'Minister for Women'.... at least according to Leo's recent speech.

So is this going to be another new gig for Katherine Zapone?

Jackoflynn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118479468#Comment_118479468

There were two witnesses to the attack. They saw it was a man.

iptba

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118487642#Comment_118487642

I’m sure we’ll hear all the feminists/champions of gender equality complaining and saying there should also be a Minister for Men … not

RabbleRouser2k

https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1485152949575856131?s=20

Colour me surprised...

Someone once told me 'There are certain people who will love to turn up for a photograph, or have their image in the paper, online, on TV etc But ask them to help you with anything, or do anything... and you'll be met with total silence'.

Micheal and Leo were happy to speak out on, but when it's happening on their political doorstep, nowhere to be seen.

iptba

"I'm a feminist but I still think men should pay for the first date"

Article is behind a pay wall:

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/im-a-feminist-but-think-men-should-pay-for-first-date-can-learn-a-lot-1591441

But there is a Twitter thread with extracts, lots of comments and a poll

https://twitter.com/i/events/1518851389434343426

RabbleRouser2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118980589#Comment_118980589

We had Blindboy 'I used to be funny, but now I whine about everything' Boatclub saying 'if you think you're a male feminist, let a woman pay for your dinner'...

They do somersaults over one another, they really do.

iptba

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118980589#Comment_118980589

One tweet:

Why, whenever gender norms benefit women, should we reject them❓ Victoria asks. 

“Women already have it harder. 

“The average woman spends £95.94 on make-up💄and £162.52 on their nails💅 annually.”