Chapter 2 - Finding Nemo

Swashbuckler

Cheers K. Yeah definitely trying to get consistent 50mile+ weeks. Last three weeks have been consistent in that sense.

Enjoying it yeah albeit with the usual doubts of "is this the right session to be doing this week". Haha.

Theres also the knowledge that from September onwards I'll probably be off the racing grid for a while anyway so appreciating it all the more.

AuldManKing

nice work on that 5x1m session.

The recovery from these is interesting, given the pace they are run at.

In the past I've done 6x1m (a typical Daniels session) off 1 minute - and recently have done 4x5 minutes at 5.50 off 90 secs.
I reckoned that 90s was too small a recovery but felt that for the stage of season I was at - 90 secs should be where I'm at ('Should' vrs 'Actual' - a big difference) - the perceived wisdom of v02 workouts is that the recovery should be between 50%-90% of the length of the rep - so you're in a good time-slot there.

I need to balance my recoveries a bit better and not be so hard on myself!!

Swashbuckler

I hear ya. It's the one thing I doubted when setting the session. I recall doing some sessions at that pace last year. The 1k reps had 90s recovery. 1200m rep session had 2mins recovery. I figured 2.30 was sensible enough given I have considered my approach pretty aggressive lately. By the end of the session I think 2.30 was just about right.

Some of those Daniel's sessions look frightening on paper.

Duanington

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I hear ya. It's the one thing I doubted when setting the session. I recall doing some sessions at that pace last year. The 1k reps had 90s recovery. 1200m rep session had 2mins recovery. I figured 2.30 was sensible enough given I have considered my approach pretty aggressive lately. By the end of the session I think 2.30 was just about right.

Some of those Daniel's sessions look frightening on paper.

I find looking at the week before and the week ahead is a more balanced way to settle on recoveries.

I also look at how far out a target race is - is it a "key" session? One to simulate race conditions 2 weeks out from a race? Reduce the recoveries

Is it a general strength\tempo session with no real specifity? I tend to give a little more recovery to ensure form stays good, stride pattern stays consistent etc....which is all part of the reason for running the session anyway.

Swashbuckler

Duanington wrote:

I also look at how far out a target race is - is it a "key" session? One to simulate race conditions 2 weeks out from a race? Reduce the recoveries

On that, if you were doing a 10k race simulation type session how would you structure it? I've heard two very differing opinions on peaking for races, one of whom said longer splits are better eg mile splits like my session last week and another who said short, sharp splits are better eg. 400m off steady recoveries. Probably an oversimplified question as it's all about cumulative weeks etc but just curious on your thoughts.

skyblue46

You'll have to pardon my ignorance here but are the lengths of recoveries not a huge part in what the session achieves? Longer recoveries making you comfortable and easier at a pace and shorter recoveries aimed at increasing endurance primarily?

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

You'll have to pardon my ignorance here but are the lengths of recoveries not a huge part in what the session achieves? Longer recoveries making you comfortable and easier at a pace and shorter recoveries aimed at increasing endurance primarily?

It's a good question. Typically when it has come to short recovery specific sessions I would say they have rarely been much longer than 1km reps. The 5x1M last week was really chosen to get me comfortable running at that pace. Shorter recoveries would've had me flagging and straining which I really wanted to avoid. My plan tomorrow is to have shorter 90s reps with reducing recoveries and trying to hold the recovery as steady as possible but prepared to jog if needed.

Duanington

Swashbuckler wrote: »

On that, if you were doing a 10k race simulation type session how would you structure it? I've heard two very differing opinions on peaking for races, one of whom said longer splits are better eg mile splits like my session last week and another who said short, sharp splits are better eg. 400m off steady recoveries. Probably an oversimplified question as it's all about cumulative weeks etc but just curious on your thoughts.

I suppose it comes down to the individual athlete really - someone may need more work at the sharper end and already have a really well developed threshold while someone else may have great turnover and leg speed but lack the bit of endurance to bring that out in a race.

For others, a combination might work well ( I suspect I fall into this category) - some threshold type longer reps, cutting down to faster, more "hurty" reps. Physically and mentally challenging.

I don't think there's one right answer here, I think it really depends on the individual needs

AuldManKing

Duanington wrote: »

I find looking at the week before and the week ahead is a more balanced way to settle on recoveries.

I also look at how far out a target race is - is it a "key" session? One to simulate race conditions 2 weeks out from a race? Reduce the recoveries

Is it a general strength\tempo session with no real specifity? I tend to give a little more recovery to ensure form stays good, stride pattern stays consistent etc....which is all part of the reason for running the session anyway.

For a tempo session, you need to keep the recoveries short anyway, but I agree with your point around being a 'key' session - reducing the recoveries and running at race pace is a good way to do this.

Skyblue: Recoveries differ for Race pace sessions (start high and reduce as you get nearer to race), Tempo sessions (need to be short to maintain blood lactate), Sharpening sessions (typically shorter & sharper pace) - V02 workouts are typically 50%-90% duration - Pure speed sessions have full recoveries.

AuldManKing

Duanington wrote: »

I suppose it comes down to the individual athlete really - someone may need more work at the sharper end and already have a really well developed threshold while someone else may have great turnover and leg speed but lack the bit of endurance to bring that out in a race.

For others, a combination might work well ( I suspect I fall into this category) - some threshold type longer reps, cutting down to faster, more "hurty" reps. Physically and mentally challenging.

I don't think there's one right answer here, I think it really depends on the individual needs

Fully agree with this - you need to find what works for you as not every training plan works for the individual.

OOnegative

Best of luck tomorrow evening, try not to elbow Mick to much!!! Run well!!

Swashbuckler

OOnegative wrote:

Best of luck tomorrow evening, try not to elbow Mick to much!!! Run well!!

Mick will be shoved aside. Front row centre. Cheers man.

Murph_D

All the best.

Swashbuckler

Tis a feckin day for the beach up here!

Singer

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Tis a feckin day for the beach up here!

No sandbagging

Have a great race.

OOnegative

Elbows didn’t work by looks of it, nice racing all the same P, very well done.

Swashbuckler

Now that's how you organize a race. Phenomenal. 36.23 chip time. Report will follow when I get a chance. Having some great family time up here. That's the best 10k I've been to in every aspect.

Swashbuckler

OOnegative wrote:

Elbows didn’t work by looks of it, nice racing all the same P, very well done.

Believe it or not I got him on his cooldown.

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Now that's how you organize a race. Phenomenal. 36.23 chip time. Report will follow when I get a chance. Having some great family time up here. That's the best 10k I've been to in every aspect.

Looking forward to this report. It really is an amazingly well run event.

OOnegative

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Believe it or not I got him on his cooldown.

If DD was racing he would have gotten you a free pair of shades!!! Well done again P.

Swashbuckler

Dunshaughlin 10k Race Report

Dunshaughlin has been on my bucket list for a few years. Ever since I joined the Boards running community it was always the race (outside of DCM) that stood out to me in race reports. Given my love for the 10k it was always one I wanted to do and this was the year! At the beginning of the year I had a few races on my radar - Munster and County 4M, Adare and Charleville but Dunshaughlin was "the one". The rest were just bonus races. That being said I wasn't banking all on Dunshaughlin to determine if the year was a success or not. But all the same I wanted to put in a decent effort for this.

Giving Luke a break had meant the build up to this was a bit of a solo effort. In a way I'm glad. It forced me to think a lot about what are my strengths and weaknesses as a runner. More on that later. I put in a hard block. I know I've been neglecting my log recently so some people might not be up to speed on my training (get on Strava B or at least connect with me on Garmin!). It was an aggressive buildup with some tough sessions, filled with doubts as to whether I was "doing it right" and whether I was being overly aggressive on pace target. I had targeted 5.45-5.50 pace in a lot of the 10k specific stuff in the buildup. Given I couldn't manage that in the County 4M and GLR Relay I had my doubts but I was only coming back into shape then. In all honesty I felt great in the week running up to this. Legs came back really well through the mini "taper". It's not really a taper. Just a down week but a tuneup. Felt good albeit with some doubts over my ability to hold target pace for sub 36 through 10k.

I had asked the missus if herself and baba would join me for the weekend and we'd make a family weekend of it. Booked the Pillo Hotel in Ashbourne (a place I know only too well with work travels). We landed up Saturday afternoon. What a scorcher of a day. I was worried. Haha. I knew it was expected to cool as the day went on though. We spent the day in Tayto Park. Not ideal prep - long drive, sore ass, lots of walking and picking baba up but I didn't care. It was a great day and we really enjoyed it. Got back to the Pillo and some more little tasks to do before hitting the road for Dunshaughlin. Was a little rushed but got there in OK time. Tried to find S but no sign so headed for warmup and ran into one of Luke's coachees. Joined him for warmup and had a good chat. Not sure Luke realizes but he's coaching a lad who's aim is to beat him in DCM. If you're reading this you might want to throw a few dodgy sessions in his plan. Glad to have bumped into S on the warmup who was a little apprehensive about what lay ahead. Did some Drills and Strides and lined up. Conditions were perfect. Temp had cooled. All good.

Really liked the way they had "pens" for different target times. I found myself about four rows back. Not too far from some Olympians which was a novelty to say the least. Everything about this felt special. I felt nervous but really happy to be there. Gave myself one last pep talk. Told myself well done for getting to the start line in good shape. Brief pat on the back and now down to business. As always I remind myself that this will indeed hurt but the pain will be worth it regardless of the result.

Again, I liked the way there was no faffing about. A quick speech over the megaphone. Clearly from a lad who was very passionate about the race. Thought he expressed himself very well and got me pumped. Quick countdown and off we went.

I thought I had positioned myself fairly well. What you don't really get a feel for is just how many runners are in those front few rows. The start is wide (which is great) but four rows of that width converging is fairly significant. Trying to get position was fairly tricky. I've been there before though and best not to panic. An opening always comes. I did need to do a bit of dodging and shuffling as some of the groups were settling into a pace that was too slow for me. I can't remember exact points in the race so forgive me if I have some of the landmarks at wrong points. It took about a km for me to get into proper open space. I spent the first 2km passing quite a few people.

First km clocked at 3.36 (5.48/mile pace).
Pretty much bang on where I wanted to be and feeling relaxed with mega dry mouth.
Fantastic support passing through the town. Some guy on a megaphone calling out people's names and welcoming them to the race. Another lovely touch.
Second and third kms were standard enough. I was working but it was the right amount of working. It was what I would consider 10k effort.
Second and third kms clocked at 3.37/3.37 (5.49/mile pace). Pretty good. I had figured before the race that I'd need to be somewhere around 3.36/km.

Heres where the doubts started to kick in. From km 4 to 7 was really where I had to dig in a little and use my experience. The absolute best thing about this race is there is always some group around you working as hard as you are. That was a massive help. There was a few Trim AC lads just in front and I was focused on them (well I was focused on the internal hell but they were a good distraction).
Fourth and fifth kms clocked at 3.38 and 3.39 (5.51 and 5.53/mile pace).
From about the second km I had noticed my watch was beeping earlier and earlier before the road marker. By the fifth km it was beeping roughly 10 seconds before the halfway point. So given I was in or around where I needed to be it was hard to know if I was on track or not. To be honest I didn't really think about it too much. The pain was real and getting to the end was all that mattered.

Lots of things to think about at this point. This was really the key point of the race for me. Seeing those fourth and fifth km splits was concerning. I didn't feel like I could go any faster without risking ending up in the ditch at 8km. The possibility of those splits getting slower and slower was real. The internal dialogue really kicked in around halfway. You've been here before P. It's meant to feel like this. You don't train for it to be easy, you train so you can handle the suffering. I thought back (in my dazed race state) to the sessions I had done. How hard I had worked in some of them and convinced myself that, yes this is hellish but it's what I trained for. I can't turn around to the missus and my buddies at home and tell them I quit. Just keep going. Keep the legs turning over and see if you get a second (fourth?) wind. So on I went fully expecting to keep slowing but ademant I wouldn't go down without a fight. Also questioning if I ever want to race again. Haha
I can't remember at what point exactly but we hit a little bump in the road followed by a lovely downhill. I had recalled that the route map had a hill followed by a drop followed by a drag. Those were the main things to worry about on the course. Part of me hoped that bump was it. It wasn't. That being said the first proper hill was fine. It was short. By now I was pleased I had talked myself around. The downhill had come just at the right time for me.

Sixth and seventh kms clocked at 3.34/3.37 (5.45 and 5.49/mile pace).
I was back on track and super proud of myself. Haha. Not sure proud is the right word as all I could feel was pain but I definitely made a mental note and gave myself a mental pat on the back. I was over the worst of the negative thoughts by now. I knew the drag was coming though. Another really nice touch was seeing the names chalked on the road. At the time I didn't know what they were but assumed they were past winners. It was fairly motivating and very well placed right at a time when you need some inspiration. Kudos to the organizers for that. The drag was certainly that. I was still eyeing Trim AC lads up ahead ad had maintained touching distance. Got to the top of the drag in ok nick.
Eight and ninth kms clocked at 3.43/3.38 (5.59 and 5.50/mile).
By the 8th km I had given up doing the maths. My brain was barely able for 2+2. I figured, given my watch was beeping so far from the road markings that even if I had a watch pb I wasn't on for an official pb and that's all that matters. I took a glance at my watch after the ninth km beeped and saw I needed a spectacular last km for a pb. Haha.
Saw the road marker for 800m to go. As much as they feel like the longest 800m you'll ever do I genuinely appreciate seeing them in races. Not enough races have them. By now there are no huge heroics. Just push to the end. The profile says this is uphill but I swear I thought it was downhill? Optical illusion? The legs don't have a sprint in them. I had honestly paced the whole thing really well so there wasn't a quick finish in me. 400m to go. Amazing support from the locals. I wish all races were like this. Where's the feckin line. Longest 400m of my life!
My watch beeped about 11 seconds before the line.
Tenth km clocked at 3.34 (5.43/mile pace). 5.33 pace for the last 11 seconds. Haha.
Crossed the line at last!! Saw 36.2x on the clock in advance so I knew it wasn't a pb. Official chip time was 36.23. Not a pb but definitely a run to be proud of.

Took a few minutes to compose myself. Some lad tapped me on the back to say great running. I must have been his target. Nice of him. Really well organised finish line too. Another lad from Crusaders came over to say well done and fair play for travelling up from Limerick. Casual chat for a minute. Then he tells me he's just coming back after injury and ran 34.xx. Pb is 31.xx. Jaysus. These lads are ten a penny up in these parts of the country. Haha. Incredible really. Really says it all about the race that a 31.xx guy comes over to some randomer to say well done. I hung around for a bit hoping to see S but no sign so headed back to HQ for that super spread. Spent a few mins looking at the poster boards they had up of the fastest times and previous winners. Another nice touch. You really get a sense of history and occasion with Dunshaughlin 10k. It's not something I've experienced before. I really think it's a race everyone should do at least once. I've heard people say it's not a pb course. I'm not sure if I agree. It has a couple of stings but where else are you guaranteed a group to work with whether you're a 30min runner or a 60min runner. I loved it. Really really loved it. It's by far the best race I've been involved in. Maybe I have low standards, haha, but we don't get those kind of races in Limerick or surrounding counties apart from maybe a couple of exceptions. Ye are spoiled up this part of the country. Haha. Couldn't for the life of me find S and needed to get back to my heavily pregnant and hungry missus so hit the road. Snuck into the room with baba asleep in the corner and had a nice relaxing night until our inconsiderate neighbour's started drunkenly banging away at each other at 3.30am followed by loud conversation. Thankfully baba is a great sleeper. On the other hand I'm not and have been awake since.

So there you have it. Initially I was happy, then a little disappointed but upon reflection there are several reasons I should be happy.

Key takeaways;

The splits were probably the best I've done in a race. There was no major decline in pace. They were very consistent and I managed effort levels well.

Despite my dramatic descriptions of pain and suffering the form held more or less throughout. No straining or falling apart. I think I might sit down into my hips a bit when tiring which is good to note. I don't feel in bits like I did after limerick relay.

I'm convinced my Ennis pb was on a short course and now I'm effectively chasing an overoptimistic pb. It's fine though. Despite how it sounds my mindset hasn't moved away from continued improvement in running ability over time. Race times are not my gauge of success but it's still nice to run good times every now and then

This felt like a stronger run than my pb effort last year. Everything about it was more "solid". I'm tempted to say there's more to come but I said that after Ennis 15 months ago. I shouldn't forget Charleville I guess. But I definitely went a bit backwards towards the end of the year last year so I've come into this year lacking momentum. It's fine though. Sometimes life events get in the way of running progress. With baba no.2 on the way I fully expect I'll probably go into next year lacking momentum too. We'll see I guess.

Key concern;

And this is the interesting part I guess. Given I was responsible for my own training for this block it forced me to really think about me as a runner. It's often hard to tell during training where exactly your strengths and weaknesses are. Sometimes a race will put them out in front of you plain as day. After Dunshaughlin I'm struggling a bit to figure out exactly how to progress. I ran well. I got myself into 5.4x/mile for a 10k which is in or around pb shape. I held the pace reasonably well and didn't fall apart which tells me endurance is pretty good (not spectacular but pretty good). I know I can run fast. I don't think speed is a limiting factor in my performance. So if endurance is not too bad and speed is not too bad, how do you push on to the next level? Is it a matter of keeping patient and keep doing what you're doing and eventually when I'm 65 I'll be a spectacular runner? (tongue in cheek). That's the main niggle I have in my mind I guess. Where to next?

But I don't want to end on a negative. Dunshaughlin was super. I loved it. Everything about the organization was just as you would want it with several extra touches to make it all the more special. A stunning standard of runner and a pleasure to run with them.

As I finish up, baba has just woke. Thankfully the couple next door are asleep. Hopefully baba is in a playful mood and looking to make as much noise as possible. Might even throw on Peppa Pig at full volume for a while. Alright baba, time to walk the halls. Life is good.

healy1835

Nice report P. No harm with a bit of introspection after a race. You've acknowledged that you might have been a bit aggressive and shoehorned a couple of sessions in for this block. Plus you have to remember that it hasn't exactly been plain sailing for you since Charleville and you eased off in intensity because it was needed. For me this is just another step in the right direction.
You, like myself, have reached a level where we're (relatively) what one might call half decent runners and the gains are smaller now. You had a great performance in Charleville (inspired by myself I might add) and then you had a to take a couple of steps back. Now you're almost back to where you were. Can't give you any specifics as regards your training as we both know I'm not great at that sort of stuff but you seem to be moving in the right direction, and if you get into HM pb shape this autumn then I'd be confident enough that the 10k PB will go as well in the process.

Bluesquare

Well done - enjoyed your report - made me examine my own effort . I really loved the race as well and liked the wide start and the fact that there was always people doing a similar effort around you . I couldn’t imagine moving at your pace but at a level where every second counts I’m not sure it’s an “honest ‘ course for pacing - while the there are no real hills to talk about there are lots of hidden inclines and declines.

Kellygirl

Brilliant report P. You sound so confident and strong and I’m delighted for you.

shotgunmcos

Thanks for the report good read and well done on a solid performance. The self talk is very healthy!

It's not complicated. You say with confidence that you feel you have the speed and endurance for 36mins?

Where is your speed and endurance for 35mins? If you can bang out 3:30 1k reps no probs, shorten recovery or progressively lengthen reps. I guess what I'm suggesting is train in the 35min ballpark! (As if it was that easy)

MY BAD

Excellent running and report!! Well done man.

AuldManKing

Great racing there, super stuff and a great read.

I get where you are coming from on the 'how to progress' part.
I've seen guys who were our level just move on so much in the past 18 months (Marc is 1 example - Evan is another) - their training is the same/similar as ours - I guess they just have different genes or fibers.

I was considering not doing DCM and spending a lot of time at 5k stuff (& faster) in an effort to really work on top end speed and 5k type endurance - trying to bring 5k's to under 5.30/mile pace that sort of stuff.
SGMC gives 1 way - by shortening recovery / lenghtening the reps

One thing I've taken from THE BOOK - and its rather simple. Is the area of Progression.
Daniels doesn't really have clear progressions that are too visible as the sessions are a bit nuts, but the sorts of progressions that I'm working on now are visible to me, that brings confidence in executing the session and seeing how the next week progresses that...and so on.

I'd say that if you pick a race in the distance and work on a plan that progresses the sessions (Intervals / Tempos / Long run) to a certain point prior to the race - then you've a great shot at executing a good race. Providing you dont go wandering around Tayto Park before hand.

Anyway - thanks for passing on the recording of the pair next door.....appreciated.

KSU

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Tried to find S but no sign so headed for warmup and ran into one of Luke's coachees. Joined him for warmup and had a good chat. Not sure Luke realizes but he's coaching a lad who's aim is to beat him in DCM. If you're reading this you might want to throw a few dodgy sessions in his plan.

At this rate I will definitely have my work cut out for me. His time last night was faster than I have ran in 2 years

With regards the training side of things I think it is definitely something that is weighing on your mind. Back yourself, you have been running long enough and learned enough since the days we started working together to know enough about effort and what works for you.

I think some of the doubts probably spring from mentalities instilled over the past 12 months. Training philosophies are never stagnant we continue to learn and grow, nobody (myself especially) has things figured out just because stuff is more aggressive now is not a bad thing as long as its not 100% aggressive 100% of the time. The one thing I will say is that changes in training can sometimes take immediate effect while other times can take a bit of time to bed in so you could well spring on from this and smash things 4-6 weeks down the line. The key is patience that is why it is crucial to focus on the process rather than the outcome. We are an impatient breed and want everything straight away but half the battle is consistency and the best way to do that is enjoying the day to day and have faith the results will come rather than chopping and changing for the sake of it in order to crack the secret.

AuldManKing wrote: »

I get where you are coming from on the 'how to progress' part.
I've seen guys who were our level just move on so much in the past 18 months (Marc is 1 example - Evan is another) - their training is the same/similar as ours - I guess they just have different genes or fibers.

I was considering not doing DCM and spending a lot of time at 5k stuff (& faster) in an effort to really work on top end speed and 5k type endurance - trying to bring 5k's to under 5.30/mile pace that sort of stuff.
SGMC gives 1 way - by shortening recovery / lenghtening the reps

One thing I've taken from THE BOOK - and its rather simple. Is the area of Progression.
Daniels doesn't really have clear progressions that are too visible as the sessions are a bit nuts, but the sorts of progressions that I'm working on now are visible to me, that brings confidence in executing the session and seeing how the next week progresses that...and so on.

While I get where the lads are coming from regarding the train like a 35 min guy personally I am not really a fan of this. Effort is key we should always be training to current fitness levels. The progress is made by stringing this together week after week, month after month (and yes sometimes year after year) and getting more controlled in that. As corny as it sounds you want to aspire to a zen type stage of training so that by the time races come around you can hover at current PB pace for as long as you need to before kicking on and utilizing the gained fitness. Economy of effort is how you improve as most of us have the top end capacity to go beyond our wildest dreams but its how long it takes us to get to that point (it's only going one way if you reach that at 3k in a 10k race) that determines our race performances.

Progression happens at different rates for different people for a host of reasons (training may look similar but personal background and how a human adapts vary widely) this is why it is important to trust in the approach you have no matter what the approach is because you need almost a blinkered confidence (as long as it is based on common sense and not delusion) that what you are doing will improve you.

Take M for example when he came to me first he told me what he wanted to run come 2020 and said he didn't care what he ran in mean time as long as it was moving in the right direction. His jumps admittedly have been even beyond my wildest dreams at this stage but it has helped give him confidence in the process that can be hard at times when you plateau (sometimes that requires change and other times it is just patience)

(sorry for the tangent)

Swashbuckler

KSU wrote:

The key is patience that is why it is crucial to focus on the process rather than the outcome. We are an impatient breed and want everything straight away but half the battle is consistency and the best way to do that is enjoying the day to day and have faith the results will come rather than chopping and changing for the sake of it in order to crack the secret.

KSU wrote:

can be hard at times when you plateau (sometimes that requires change and other times it is just patience)

Great post L and thanks for the input. I get everything your saying and I've quoted these parts specifically.

I get what you mean about patience and having a blinkered confidence in your approach. I think you know me well enough after the last couple of years to know I'm not after shortcuts. The dilemma and doubts for me come from this - how do you know if your approach is right or not? I know plenty of people with blinkered confidence in their approach and the approach is just plain wrong. Who's to say my approach is not just plain wrong? I could have blinkered confidence in an approach that could just lead me down a dead end of zero progress. I know that's an extreme but I figure any good runner should try to figure out what works for them and I can't say I've figured that out...... Yet..... Hence me questioning whether it is a matter of patience or a change in approach. how do you determine if a change in approach is needed?
I'd be happy to run nothing but threshold runs for three years if I knew it was what I needed and would make me take a big jump. I'd be happy to be patient if I knew the approach was probably right and would bring me on. It's those doubts that make it hard.
It's very easy to be consistently wrong!

As an aside Jesus christ, M has made some progress. Incredible stuff.

Swashbuckler

healy1835 wrote:

HM pb shape this autumn then I'd be confident enough that the 10k PB will go as well in the process.

All going well I'll be in nappy changing shape come Autumn!

Bluesquare wrote:

Well done - enjoyed your report - made me examine my own effort . I really loved the race as well and liked the wide start and the fact that there was always people doing a similar effort around you . I couldn’t imagine moving at your pace but at a level where every second counts I’m not sure it’s an “honest ‘ course for pacing - while the there are no real hills to talk about there are lots of hidden inclines and declines.

Cheers for that. I have to say, running in packs definitely hid those inclines and declines.

Kellygirl wrote:

Brilliant report P. You sound so confident and strong and I’m delighted for you.

Cheers K. Can't say I thought that but I guess you're probably right. Confidence has grown. Apart from planning my training. Haha.

shotgunmcos wrote:

Where is your speed and endurance for 35mins? If you can bang out 3:30 1k reps no probs, shorten recovery or progressively lengthen reps. I guess what I'm suggesting is train in the 35min ballpark! (As if it was that easy)

Yeah I hear you. I'm not sure it's that simple though. Maybe I overthink it but training planning for me is very complicated. I don't think you can keep progressing sessions endlessly. When should you step back, when should you go aggressive, should you shift the balance to more tempo threshold stuff, or speed stuff. Like I said, I over think these things. Haha.

Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote:

Excellent running and report!! Well done man.

Cheers man. Happy to see your progress in the last while. Would be happy to hit the roads with you before the end of the year.

AuldManKing wrote:

Anyway - thanks for passing on the recording of the pair next door.....appreciated.

You are more than welcome. Happy to say Baba was in a boisterous mood this morning and I was seriously encouraging her to ramp it up.

Murph_D

Congrats P - terrific race. Very consistent alright - May have not picked it all up but didn’t really get a sense of you racing the people around you as much as the watch and the awareness of the beeps/road markers etc. Perhaps that’s part of getting to the next level again. Just a thought (and something I am not very good at myself). Well done.

Swashbuckler

Murph_D wrote:

Congrats P - terrific race. Very consistent alright - May have not picked it all up but didn’t really get a sense of you racing the people around you as much as the watch and the awareness of the beeps/road markers etc. Perhaps that’s part of getting to the next level again. Just a thought (and something I am not very good at myself). Well done.

Cheers D. It's a good point and not something I had given much thought to before now. Looking back I had a target in mind. The conditions were perfect, I was in a race with a very high standard of runners, almost guaranteed a group to run with no matter where I was. It was ideal conditions to try and run a good time rather than racing people and potentially blow up doing so. So there was definitely a conscious decision to try and find a group I could work with and push on if they were going slower than planned target pace.
If I'm honest I don't regret that decision. I don't think I could have ran that race any better.

Murph_D

Absolutely - just a little observation in response to your post-race reflections. It was a super result and shows that you prepared well. Not my intention to pour cold water in it. I notice that Cru runner finished just in front of his clubmate - both very strong runners and I bet they pushed each other all the way!

Swashbuckler

Murph_D wrote:

Absolutely - just a little observation in response to your post-race reflections. It was a super result and shows that you prepared well. Not my intention to pour cold water in it. I notice that Cru runner finished just in front of his clubmate - both very strong runners and I bet they pushed each other all the way!

God no D. Wouldn't consider it cold water. What's the point in having these reports and logs if I'm sensitive to opinionsand inputs and good ones at that. Haha. All good man.

Wubble Wubble

Enjoyed that read P. Well done on a difficult race in the conditions. Doubts from km 4 to 7...happens to me in nearly every 10k! Fingers crossed you'll have quieter neighbours next time you're staying over this side :rolleyes:

eyrie

I'm dead late to be congratulating you on Dunshaughlin but congratulations all the same! Have just read the report and enjoyed it thoroughly, as usual, as well as the musings after it.

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I don't think I could have ran that race any better.

Can't ask for more than that really

coogy

KSU wrote: »

While I get where the lads are coming from regarding the train like a 35 min guy personally I am not really a fan of this. Effort is key we should always be training to current fitness levels. The progress is made by stringing this together week after week, month after month (and yes sometimes year after year) and getting more controlled in that. As corny as it sounds you want to aspire to a zen type stage of training so that by the time races come around you can hover at current PB pace for as long as you need to before kicking on and utilizing the gained fitness. Economy of effort is how you improve as most of us have the top end capacity to go beyond our wildest dreams but its how long it takes us to get to that point (it's only going one way if you reach that at 3k in a 10k race) that determines our race performances.

Progression happens at different rates for different people for a host of reasons (training may look similar but personal background and how a human adapts vary widely) this is why it is important to trust in the approach you have no matter what the approach is because you need almost a blinkered confidence (as long as it is based on common sense and not delusion) that what you are doing will improve you.

Take M for example when he came to me first he told me what he wanted to run come 2020 and said he didn't care what he ran in mean time as long as it was moving in the right direction. His jumps admittedly have been even beyond my wildest dreams at this stage but it has helped give him confidence in the process that can be hard at times when you plateau (sometimes that requires change and other times it is just patience)

I really enjoyed reading these paragraphs. Last year, I was occasionally guilty of expecting too much too soon and convinced myself that I was able for a lot more that my body could handle. It wasn't all bad, as I put in a couple of good performances in races that I look back on now and am still proud of. It was more to do with how I misjudged my own ability. I don't think I was familiar enough with my limitations.

I think a lot of it had to do with my age (I'm not ancient but I'm no spring chicken either) and felt that because I'd come into running relatively late, I had to start cramming in all sort of unrealistic goals before it was too late. Ultimately, you get found out (DCM being a case in point).

Now, thanks to you and many, many others on here, I know that it all takes time and that for as long as I am running and putting the miles in with some regular race experience thrown in, it will all come together.

KSU

coogy wrote: »

I really enjoyed reading these paragraphs. Last year, I was occasionally guilty of expecting too much too soon and convinced myself that I was able for a lot more that my body could handle. It wasn't all bad, as I put in a couple of good performances in races that I look back on now and am still proud of. It was more to do with how I misjudged my own ability. I don't think I was familiar enough with my limitations.

I think a lot of it had to do with my age (I'm not ancient but I'm no spring chicken either) and felt that because I'd come into running relatively late, I had to start cramming in all sort of unrealistic goals before it was too late. Ultimately, you get found out (DCM being a case in point).

Now, thanks to you and many, many others on here, I know that it all takes time and that for as long as I am running and putting the miles in with some regular race experience thrown in, it will all come together.

It's kinda funny for years I went through a cycle of aggressive build ups with different approaches some resulting in PB's (and some not) Each time I got to new levels of fitness I was convinced I had "cracked it" where as now I am realizing that I didn't know much and that the reason for the jumps was not due to what I just did but what came before it.

As the years have gone on I am less interested in the specifics of sessions to an extent because I don't believe that there is too much difference in how they approach things but what is different is what a person does outside of the sessions, whether they gain confidence in there abilities from the sessions and whether they blend together for the overall goal of the plan. As a coach I have prescribed what can be seen as "monster sessions" while others are underwhelming on paper, with the latter being the more crucial to the overall aim of what we are trying to do but overall the main thing is to work appropriately to the point where can keep going forward. Its a difficult these days to invest that much time into training and a coach as we are always worried we are wasting time rather than investing in making long term progression.

This is just a thought and perhaps this could be an overlooked reason for not reaching the "glory days" of the 70s and 80s. Back then feedback was limited and less instant gratification. Hard efforts were hard and easy efforts were easy and it made it easier for consistency. We weren't trying to knock it out of the park with every swing but rather just kept plugging and improving.

Swashbuckler

KSU wrote:

As the years have gone on I am less interested in the specifics of sessions to an extent because I don't believe that there is too much difference in how they approach things but what is different is what a person does outside of the sessions, whether they gain confidence in there abilities from the sessions and whether they blend together for the overall goal of the plan.

This definitely resonates with me. I was asking myself during the week how much of this is physical and how much mental. Confidence since Dunshaughlin (after a few conversations with various people too) has been high and it all just feels a little easier. If I was to hit dunshaughlin tomorrow I'm reasonably convinced I'd do an even better job. The specifics aside, the attitude going into the sessions over the past while has been good. Easy to put that down to fitness gains and I'm sure it's part of it but I'm convinced a lot of it is purely attitude and confidence.

Swashbuckler

I figured I was long overdue an update here rather than derailing other people's logs with my woes. What better time for an update than the middle of the night when I can't find a comfortable position to sleep because of this blasted hip!

Training since dunshaughlin had been going reasonably well. Still on the aggressive side (which is maybe a lesson to be learned). Up until the recently I was feeling very strong. Around July 9th I had a 4x(1M/1k) session which took a little more effort than expected. Nothing off the charts but just tough mentally. I had been on solo dad duty all week and also working in runs whenever I could. Mind and body were tired. I pushed out the planned long run to the Sunday. That run itself felt fine apart from the first signs of a very slight tightness in the hip. And by slight I really mean very little.

Decided to scale back the following week a little with easy on Monday and Tuesday. Felt the tightness still but each time it loosened out as the run progressed. Did a tempo on Wednesday and followed up with an easy Thursday. Has decided Friday would be easy with some strides thrown in. On the Friday I knew within a mile that the tightness was worse than usual. After two miles it was all out pain and I stopped. I knew I couldn't continue and hobbled back to the car hoping I hadn't left it to late. Turns out I had.
By midday Friday I could barely walk. Physio wasn't available til Tuesday. Saturday I was worse and Sunday worse still. A desperate weekend of pain. Felt like it was mostly in the hip. Lots of numbness and tingling in the left quad. In some cases spasms and twitching. Very hard to find anything resembling a comfortable position. Tried rolling the tennis ball in some areas in particular psoas and piriformis which provided some flexibility and relief but not for long. Heat didn't help and neither did cold.

Went to the doc on Monday and he couldn't do anything until I loosened out a bit but thankfully prescribed muscle relaxant and painkillers which I wish worked for longer! The muscle relaxant has definitely given me a little more freedom though. On Monday I couldn't lie on my belly (straightening my back had been causing discomfort in the hip) and at least now there's a bit more freedom.

Had a physio session last night (Tuesday evening). She did the usual checks. My posture isn't great with the pain. Back arched and pelvic tilt. Quad was a tight ball of mess. Piriformis was quite sensitive. She did a lot with the psoas/hip flexor. It's hard to know how much better I am after it. I'll now better tomorrow. Either way this is something I finally need to address. I can't keep coming back to this every few months.

Figuring out the path forward is the tricky part. I guess there are a few questions I need to ask myself.

1. Am I over training.
The honest answer is I feel I've been pushing it a bit even before dunshaughlin. I've needed three physio visits since May.

2. Am I doing enough (any) S&C.
Nope. Zilch. I'm prioritizing what time I have during the week towards time on feet on the roads.

3. Am I forcing it.
If I'm Honest I have to say yes. I did the same the last time we were due a new arrival. It became all about getting the most out of my running before the obvious drop in level with sleepless nights etc. I should know better by now but that's one of the downsides to not having a coach to slap you round the head when you're being an idiot. I need to get back to the mentality I had which was not pb driven. Enjoy the process not the outcome. That being said, the injury has never escalated as quickly as it did this time.

Anyway what does this all mean. Unfortunately it means I have more questions than answers.

The reality is my year in terms of peaking is over. That's not me being pessimistic. I think it's just realistic to say that come September everything will be gearing up towards new baba. I had August pegged as hitting Banna and Tralee 10k as my last races for a while. In all reality this injury feels like it will take at least a week before I'm free to run again and when I do it will be conservative running.

So given the timeframe I'm looking at I'm expecting August to be conservative building, september/October to be maintenance. November/December to be figuring out what level of running fits into the new lifestyle of having two babas!

I'm tempted to start adding in some S&C now with a view to the rest of the year being a huge extended "base building" phase but I'm not sure is that overkill ie. is there such a thing as too much base building? The three things my physio asked me to do was keep the quad stretched even when it feels good, keep the psoas stretched even when it feels good, prioritise the core as she feels it's the core weakening when fatigued and the quads and psoas are then taking over the load.

So there's my update of woes. I'm a bit more philosophical this time. I had been doing more reading of late in particular the brad hudson book. I had kinda set in my mind that one thing I wanted to do well in 2020 was structure the year and really have a good base building phase. Seeing a Luke's approach to DCM (apart from some hiccups) was something that resonated with me. I like the thoughts of a good strong base phase. So we'll see. I'll have some chats offline with my usual "advisors ' haha. But also welcome any inputs from the regular readers here.

OOnegative

Get an MRI on the hip, when I had issues with mine I had seen two physios who diagnosed my issue as back pain before I eventually struck gold with no 3(not questioning your physio by the way) only my thoughts from suffering with similar woes in the past.

Swashbuckler

Question away man. I know only too well. I went to a physio with this in December and he spent half an hour working behind my knee! I suspect the doctor on Thursday will send me for a scan

Kellygirl

I really hope you get sorted soon P. Definitely a good time to start introducing S&C. I’d say a nice and slow introduction with a few short workouts a week. For me, I was struggling to fit in the long workouts at home but reducing them to 10-15 mins makes it much easier. Might not be perfect but surely better than nothing.

MY BAD

First of all congrats on the future sleepless nights :pac: Every runner is guilty of falling into the same pitfalls when we want to push on. I've noticed anytime I'm getting in form you seem to have a set back and vice versa. If it's a continuous issue a MRI will rule out the guessing, with my achillies injury in 2016 I ended up going to the Santry Sports clinic. The long term solution will probably be consistent strenght work. That doesn't mean going to the gym for a hour two or three times a week either. Getting in a habit of a simple 20 minutes of runner specific complementary exercises in your kitchen might do the job. As frustrating as an injury can be when it happens, I know myself when I look back I've learned more about running when I get injured than when everything is going good. All the best.

Swashbuckler

Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote:

As frustrating as an injury can be when it happens, I know myself when I look back I've learned more about running when I get injured than when everything is going good. All the best.

I have to say I completely agree with this. Applying those lessons consistently has been my downfall. Should I have kept up the stretches and core work? Yes. Should I have eased off sooner in the last few weeks? Yes. Should I have really ramped up some of those sessions without any real progression? No. As the physio said, it's unlikely this was caused by one session in particular its an accumulation of stress over time that, when ignored, all of a sudden the body says "hey I remember this happened before and we didn't like it all that much, shut down quick!."

Look it's part and parcel of running. We cant really push the envelope without learning some of these lessons along the way. There's a reason you see all those NazElite lads in the gym, there's a reason some of the high level runners on here have a S&C program of some sorts. I was getting away with it for long enough but in the last two years and training has ramped I think my body just won't allow it without some help. Unfortunately I'm not a young man anymore!

Duanington

Sorry to read this, P

BUT - it is only running...and we're all idiots when it comes to forcing it a bit when we know we shouldn't be. Take the time out to get whatever weakness is there strengthened up and you'll be the better runner for it long term.

Like you say, injury is part of running and the S+C stuff will give you something else to focus on while you reassess the running thing for the rest of the year.

Its easy to say you'll be back stronger than ever or you'll forget you were ever injured or whatever else well meaning people throw out there - the truth is, it'll happen again if you let it so get to the bottom of the problem, sort it out....then keep it sorted out :-)

Swashbuckler

Duanington wrote:

Its easy to say you'll be back stronger than ever or you'll forget you were ever injured or whatever else well meaning people throw out there - the truth is, it'll happen again if you let it so get to the bottom of the problem, sort it out....then keep it sorted out :-)

Cheers D. I appreciate that. I guess the issue or lack of clarity I have is what is the real issue. If I was to listen to my physio it would be I need to sort my core out and with that the glutes will kick in and then the quad and hip flexor will dominate less. But I could go to ten physios and I guarantee I'd get four or five different opinions.
One important point I want to make is my physio, in fairness, has generally done a super job in clearing a lot of the pain and numbness ive had. And I've been bombarded with info from her on everything my inner network is doing right and wrong. I mean that in a good way. So part of me has complete trust in what she's saying but another part of me wonders is she really hitting exactly what the issue is for me. What is the imbalance? Would core stability work really fix the issue? If so then great. But I don't want to waste a bunch of time working on the wrong thing so to speak.

This has been one of the reasons I've veered away from the marathon. I know these issues will bite me as I ramp up to marathon level training.

Swashbuckler

Kellygirl wrote:

I really hope you get sorted soon P. Definitely a good time to start introducing S&C. I’d say a nice and slow introduction with a few short workouts a week. For me, I was struggling to fit in the long workouts at home but reducing them to 10-15 mins makes it much easier. Might not be perfect but surely better than nothing.

I need to steal your coach

Duanington

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Cheers D. I appreciate that. I guess the issue or lack of clarity I have is what is the real issue. If I was to listen to my physio it would be I need to sort my core out and with that the glutes will kick in and then the quad and hip flexor will dominate less. But I could go to ten physios and I guarantee I'd get four or five different opinions.
One important point I want to make is my physio, in fairness, has generally done a super job in clearing a lot of the pain and numbness ive had. And I've been bombarded with info from her on everything my inner network is doing right and wrong. I mean that in a good way. So part of me has complete trust in what she's saying but another part of me wonders is she really hitting exactly what the issue is for me. What is the imbalance? Would core stability work really fix the issue? If so then great. But I don't want to waste a bunch of time working on the wrong thing so to speak.

This has been one of the reasons I've veered away from the marathon. I know these issues will bite me as I ramp up to marathon level training.

Have you gotten a specific programme from your physio to address the imbalance/weakness ? That would be something I’d be looking for

Also - as mentioned above, these s+c sessions really don’t have to be very time consuming. I get mine done in 10 minute blocks over the course of the week

Kellygirl

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I need to steal your coach

She’s a great find I have to say