Chapter 2 - Finding Nemo

Kellygirl

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I really thought they had sorted it out last year or maybe I've got it wrong. I recall there being two separate sides of the road for the HM and Marathon or was that not the case? I guess they have to merge at some point though.

That being said, in response to skyblue's original point I think Limerick probably is one of the better marathons in Ireland despite my giving out, in terms of support anyway. Maybe other people might be able to offer some inputs there. I'd be interested to hear opinions on good marathons in Ireland (now that I'm actively interested in marathons haha)

I’d say the Cork route is nicer in that there’s no out and backs and most of it is very flat but from an organization and support point of view Limerick beats Cork.

diego_b

Excellent report there P, well done on the team result! I’ve only ran the half in Limerick twice and I kinda hate the route for the reasons similar to what you experienced. Running in and out of the town centre over and over, is there nothing to be said for a good loop! DCM entries will be available in June, good luck with the training!

Swashbuckler

diego_b wrote:

Excellent report there P, well done on the team result! I’ve only ran the half in Limerick twice and I kinda hate the route for the reasons similar to what you experienced. Running in and out of the town centre over and over, is there nothing to be said for a good loop! DCM entries will be available in June, good luck with the training!

Haha DCM is a no go. Baby due in Sept so running will not be peaking in Sept to Nov that's for sure.

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Haha DCM is a no go. Baby due in Sept so running will not be peaking in Sept to Nov that's for sure.

I'm off work for the week either side of DCM...is it time to reconsider? :pac:

ariana`

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Haha DCM is a no go. Baby due in Sept so running will not be peaking in Sept to Nov that's for sure.

Remember for DCM you'd be tapering two weeks into October and then recovering in Nov.

You should chat to Lazare, his little girl was born in Autumn 2017 while he was training for DCM. Personally I'd give it some consideration anyhow - maybe it's genuinely not practical for you right now. From where i am now the penny is dropping that life doesn't calm down for a long time after they arrive! My life is chaos with the kids and they all sleep through the night now (youngest is 3) but we're on the road non-stop with GAA training 3 times a week (different age groups train at different times and as they get older they train twice a week) and then there's matches, soccer, swimming, music, martial arts, athletics - older 2 are into very different things in my house and the 3rd hasn't started anything yet god help me. It's all wonderful of course and I wouldn't change it but it's quite busy and trying to squeeze in a run over an hour can be very challenging. Anyhow, I didn't mean this to turn into a moan about my life as i said i wouldn't change a thing and I'm grateful for what i can fit into the week on top of working full time but just trying to give you a little insight into the next 18 years or so LOL Of course every house/family is different and there's lots of other considerations to be made, you know best (I'm just secretly dying to see how you rock the marathon world :P)!

Swashbuckler

Haha I hear you E. I'm lucky in the sense that I hope/expect that my work life won't change so much that I can't get my Monday to Friday runs in at lunch. The weekend long run will become more of a challenge but if I need to go out at 5am then I will.

With the marathon training I definitely am gonna wait til next year. When I do it I won't be rushing it. Not gonna try and squeeze in a marathon block in a panic now. I know how I get with stress levels and I don't think marathon training would be conducive to good mental health in the next number of months. I've learned not to ramp too many things at once after last year. So out of the three main things in my life - running/work/family it's never good when all are ramped at once. I'll keep the family ramping and balance running/work ramp levels. Haha.

But since DCM and now Limerick I have to say the lure of the marathon is real. I do think people on here would be disappointed with the result regardless haha. I think I'm on a hiding to nothing and unless I run a time close to what the calculators suggest it'll be underwhelming. Haha. Yes I'm talking to you S.

ariana`

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Haha I hear you E. I'm lucky in the sense that I hope/expect that my work life won't change so much that I can't get my Monday to Friday runs in at lunch. The weekend long run will become more of a challenge but if I need to go out at 5am then I will.

With the marathon training I definitely am gonna wait til next year. When I do it I won't be rushing it. Not gonna try and squeeze in a marathon block in a panic now. I know how I get with stress levels and I don't think marathon training would be conducive to good mental health in the next number of months. I've learned not to ramp too many things at once after last year. So out of the three main things in my life - running/work/family it's never good when all are ramped at once. I'll keep the family ramping and balance running/work ramp levels. Haha.

But since DCM and now Limerick I have to say the lure of the marathon is real. I do think people on here would be disappointed with the result regardless haha. I think I'm on a hiding to nothing and unless I run a time close to what the calculators suggest it'll be underwhelming. Haha. Yes I'm talking to you S.

You have nothing to prove to anyone P!

I like your rationale about balancing ramp levels in your life - i might steal that and try to apply it! It's certainly given me some food for thought and may even in part help explain some of the past few months for me :rolleyes: Thanks!

Swashbuckler

ariana` wrote:

I like your rationale about balancing ramp levels in your life - i might steal that and try to apply it! It's certainly given me some food for thought and may even in part help explain some of the past few months for me Thanks!

Well between Feb and Dec of last year all three ramped like crazy and other stuff thrown in the mix which knocked me for six ended up with me almost feeling like I was having a breakdown at Christmas. Haha. All joking aside Burnout is real and I wasn't far off it. So balance is key.

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Haha I hear you E. I'm lucky in the sense that I hope/expect that my work life won't change so much that I can't get my Monday to Friday runs in at lunch. The weekend long run will become more of a challenge but if I need to go out at 5am then I will.

With the marathon training I definitely am gonna wait til next year. When I do it I won't be rushing it. Not gonna try and squeeze in a marathon block in a panic now. I know how I get with stress levels and I don't think marathon training would be conducive to good mental health in the next number of months. I've learned not to ramp too many things at once after last year. So out of the three main things in my life - running/work/family it's never good when all are ramped at once. I'll keep the family ramping and balance running/work ramp levels. Haha.

But since DCM and now Limerick I have to say the lure of the marathon is real. I do think people on here would be disappointed with the result regardless haha. I think I'm on a hiding to nothing and unless I run a time close to what the calculators suggest it'll be underwhelming. Haha. Yes I'm talking to you S.

Moi? Aw P were you put off by my "easy target" comment? :pac: That wasn't aimed at you at all in all honesty. It was more a reflection on the use of arbitrary times as targets...the sub 3 and sub 4 thing. One persons 4:01 can be a "better" result than another persons 2:59. Knowing your determination and dedication to your training there could never be an underwhelming result from you.

Tigerandahalf

I'd scratch the marathon for a couple of years at least. It is not just the time to do the long runs but the time to recover is key. I found I was very tired, low mood and immune system vulnerable after long runs over 17 miles.

I hardly did any races between my first marathon in 2014 and now. It is only this year that I am racing properly again. The kids just took over and I was happy to just get a run in and do the odd parkrun or 10k. It kept the belly down and I stayed fit.

It depends on family support as well. If you have grandparents to mind them 3 or 4 hours every weekend you have a window and you are lucky if you can fit runs in around lunch or the commute.

Plenty of time to run marathons.

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

Moi? Aw P were you put off by my "easy target" comment? That wasn't aimed at you at all in all honesty. It was more a reflection on the use of arbitrary times as targets...the sub 3 and sub 4 thing. One persons 4:01 can be a "better" result than another persons 2:59. Knowing your determination and dedication to your training there could never be an underwhelming result from you.

Haha not atall. I think we know each other well enough at this stage that we can handle a bit of banter.

Swashbuckler

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I'd scratch the marathon for a couple of years at least. It is not just the time to do the long runs but the time to recover is key. I found I was very tired, low mood and immune system vulnerable after long runs over 17 miles.

I hardly did any races between my first marathon in 2014 and now. It is only this year that I am racing properly again. The kids just took over and I was happy to just get a run in and do the odd parkrun or 10k. It kept the belly down and I stayed fit.

It depends on family support as well. If you have grandparents to mind them 3 or 4 hours every weekend you have a window and you are lucky if you can fit runs in around lunch or the commute.

Plenty of time to run marathons.

Cheers Tiger. Yeah I get what you are saying and I guess I have no real idea just how much things will change (all going well) once number two arrives although I expect it to be tough. That being said, I've been running at a reasonably high level of intenstiy for two years now so I'm not sure just how much of a step up a marathon block will be. I guess I'll judge it next year when things are clearer. It might be the case where its an absolute no-go and im shattered from two kids and if thats the case, so be it.

Plus, who says I need long runs.....follow the Hansen plan and all I have to run is 16 miles right :pac::pac::pac::pac:

Duanington

I was just going to post to say that marathon training for you wouldn't be a huge jump up in terms of workload for you P ( but I see you've already made the point) - yes, its a step up but knowing L, it would be a gradual step up and only for 10-12 weeks anyway.
There are several ways to skin a cat as they say, I doubt very much your coach would have you running many 20+ mile runs either, he doesn't subscribe to the view of 20 odd miles each week being a recipe for success for someone taking on their first marathon ( quite the opposite actually).

Whenever you do get around to it, I look forward to seeing it happen. I have a feeling you won't look back

Fusitive

All I'll say is don't let peer pressure form your decisions but don't let common wisdom rule your heart either.

The marathon has the big numbers and the carnival athmosphere.

The track has the competition and the sunny summer evenings.

Mountain Running has the solitude, the grinding ascents and the exhilarating descents.

Cross-country has the team athomsphere and childlike craving for traversing through lakes of mud and fields.

XC skiing has lots of snow

cycling has lycra

Whatever you're into and depending on who you talk to, you'll get someone who'll prefer each of the above and more for a myriad of reasons.

This probably sounds like something from a cliche 90's Nike ad but find your niche.

Swashbuckler

Fusitive wrote:

All I'll say is don't let peer pressure form your decisions but don't let common wisdom rule your heart either.

Definitely wouldn't feel pressured despite all the pressure. Haha. I wouldn't go into something like a marathon block because people think I should. We're getting ahead of ourselves a bit though. Who knows what I'll be like after baba arrives. Marathon could be off the cards completely.

Swashbuckler

Was certainly feeling it after the Limerick relay. Moreso than usual so it became an unplanned slight step back week. Still had a session included but kept it sensible for the rest of the week.

Monday - Rest
Tuesday - Easy 7M @ 8.28
Wednesday - 3x(800/600/400 off 2mins),4mins between sets
Thursday - Easy 6M @8.20
Friday - Rest
Saturday - Easy 12M at 8.06
Sunday - Rest

Wednesdays session was designed to get some pace into the legs and move through the gears a bit. Might have been a bit on the aggressive side considering the previous weeks race. Body has been creaking a bit. Paces were more or less 5.50/5.40/5.30 for the 800/600/400.

Took an extra rest day on Friday. Body was calling out for it. Saturdays long run was slightly shorter than usual and back in the Kingdom. Loved the new surroundings. A refreshing break from the Limerick routes.

Total mileage for the week was 34 miles.

All going well I plan on ramping up to Dunshaughlin over the next 6 weeks so I'll be introducing some speedier/longer stuff and keeping the mix of tempo/threshold stuff later in the week. Will be monitoring the body closely as it's been complaining a bit lately. Physio booked for maintenance work next week.

Swashbuckler

Meant to ask yesterday, when it comes to the tempo/threshold stuff do Boardsies generally take to the hills or keep it flat. I read an article last week and they were saying that to keep threshold effort consistent it's best to stick to flat terrain. But then you read about the Kenyans taking to the hills. In general what is the best approach for people here?

For interval training I typically stick to a flat route. I guess the reason for asking is if intervals are on flat terrain and so is threshold running then that's pretty much all fast running done in the absence of hills.

healy1835

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Meant to ask yesterday, when it comes to the tempo/threshold stuff do Boardsies generally take to the hills or keep it flat. I read an article last week and they were saying that to keep threshold effort consistent it's best to stick to flat terrain. But then you read about the Kenyans taking to the hills. In general what is the best approach for people here?

For interval training I typically stick to a flat route. I guess the reason for asking is if intervals are on flat terrain and so is threshold running then that's pretty much all fast running done in the absence of hills.

I've usually been prescribed a mix....if one tempo was on my flatish tempo loop or a track, the next would probably be a hillier affair. Although how hard they are usually is directly related to any company I may or may not have.....

shotgunmcos

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Meant to ask yesterday, when it comes to the tempo/threshold stuff do Boardsies generally take to the hills or keep it flat. I read an article last week and they were saying that to keep threshold effort consistent it's best to stick to flat terrain. But then you read about the Kenyans taking to the hills. In general what is the best approach for people here?

For interval training I typically stick to a flat route. I guess the reason for asking is if intervals are on flat terrain and so is threshold running then that's pretty much all fast running done in the absence of hills.

Intervals - Flat. These are hard enough and often redzone. They are speed sessions, not strength sessions. For pure strength I'd just do hill reps. Also as reps are short you could be doing one flat, one uphill, one down hill so consistency for hitting goal times etc..

MP/HMP Tempo - Normal terrain. I started doing them up in the Industrial Estate but then just went out and did them on the route or my own usual routes. You could still keep the effort consistent using HR and allowing the pace to fluctuate. Or maintain the pace and allow HR to fluctuate. The advantage being its more race specific. The hillier the coming race, the hillier I will bias my tempo routes.

For example DCM has long 3 mile drag through the Phoenix Park so I'd look for that kind of drag in my tempo training route. Charleville HM is flat so I might do the HM tempos in the Industrial Estate.

There are pros/cons for each. Same flat terrain every week and you can measure real progress. But you can do likewise the same hilly route every week. Either way doing 10 weeks of the same run on the same route and same day could get a bit mundane

Just my 2c - Horses for courses

Duanington

Similar to above, I'd do the shorter stuff on the flat and worry less about the terrain as the distance of the session goes up ( grass, hills, whatever - not great for strava but great for toughening the legs up)

Swashbuckler

Just gonna get this out there first incase Chinese whispers gets started and all sorts of rumors get going. Haha. Had a chat with Luke earlier this week about maybe having a crack at taking the reigns of my training and giving him a well deserved break! Been a year and a half now of him tirelessly supporting every aspect of my running and racing which has had a huge positive impact not only in my performances but even in my own personal life and mental health. So from here on (at least for a while) I'm gonna see how I get on. Really can't thank Luke enough for everything. He's a legend of a lad and the sheer amount of people he has helped and continues to help is astonishing. I couldn't do what he does even if I had his brains. Anyway before we start getting too soppy let's move on to this week's training, set be me!! Feels weird saying that.

Monday - Easy 7M at 8.02
Tuesday - 6x1km off 90/90/75/75/60 at 5.45.
Wednesday - Easy 6M at 8.23
Thursday - Easy 7M at 8.18
Friday - 2M 6.30/1M 6.10/2M 6.30/1M 6.10
Saturday - Easy 1:45 at 8.11
Sunday - Rest

Coming into the week the creaks and strains were there but not as bad as the previous week. I took a look at what kinda training I think I should be doing between now and Dunshaughlin. I'm not moving away from the mindset of long term gains but at the same time I want to ramp it up a bit in the next few weeks just to see what kind of shape I'm in. One of the benefits of being responsible for my own training now is pulling back when I think I need to. If I'm truly honest with myself I rarely, if ever messed with Luke's outline for the week. Not that there were many occasions I felt I needed to pull back as Luke has always been very good at getting the balance just right. Now I'm setting my own training it's very easy to overload so pulling back when necessary will be crucial.

Tuesdays session was set with a view to trying out a bit more aggressive session than I have been doing lately but closely monitoring how I felt. I definitely felt it. The idea of this session is running at race pace and the reducing recoveries mean the legs don't fully clear out the lactic acid before the next set kicks in. Almost like replicating race conditions. Not one I would be doing too often but a nice session every now and then. Was meant to be 7 sets but I had the sense not to push the 7th as I felt I'd be straining.

Splits were
3.33/3.37/3.30/3.34/3.36/3.39
Slowed a little by the end. Pace was probably a little aggressive on these.
Total mileage incl. Warmup and cooldown was 8.87 miles.

The easy runs that followed on Wednesday and Thursday were nice and slow. Wanted to make sure I was recovered as much as possible by Friday.

Friday was designed with building strength in mind. Wanted to spend some time flirting around 6.10 to 6.35 region. Effort meant to be comfortable to comfortably hard and back again.
Ignored the pace for the first section as it was on a lumpy enough route so went purely on effort. All in all the session went well. It's surprising how much slower 6.25/6.30 feels after running 6.10. A nice solid session that had me feeling it in the legs

Saturday morning I jolted awake at 5am and there was no going back to sleep. Nothing for it but a shotgunmcos style ninja exit out of the mobile home. Headed out towards Causeway which is flat and then after 6 miles it loops back towards Ballyheigue. Very lumpy on the way back. Legs felt tired towards the end but nothing out of the ordinary. Happy to come back to a mobile home full of sleeping humans. Ran just shy of 13 miles. Lovely to get it done early.
Solid week. Let's see what next week brings. Physio booked for Wednesday for some maintenance. Will probably start doing some conditioning stuff with particular focus on the glutes as I feel this is the root of the breakdown of the "chain" when things start going wrong.

Total mileage for the week was 50.5 miles.
Total time on feet was 6hr 33mins.
Total time of "stuff" was roughly 60mins.
Maybe I can do this self coaching after all!

Last thing I will say is that I welcome any criticism or constructive feedback. If I'm being a tool with my training don't be afraid to call me out on it.

OOnegative

No more than a lot of us, he’s there if you need him. Best of luck going solo P, no doubt the training and racing will be still top notch.

MY BAD

Good luck on going solo, you've built up a good knowledge over the years. No doubt it will work out

eyrie

Looking forward to reading through your thought processes as you work out your own training so! Good luck with the new phase

ariana`

Likewise, i'm looking forward to see you in action over the coming weeks and months and have no doubt you will succeed at whatever your goals are! Best of luck P.

Swashbuckler

eyrie wrote:

Looking forward to reading through your thought processes as you work out your own training so! Good luck with the new phase

How to reverse 18 months of solid coaching in four weeks.

eyrie

Swashbuckler wrote: »

How to reverse 18 months of solid coaching in four weeks.

Ha, that sounds like it would make for highly entertaining reading, I'm in! Might be tough on the main character though... But something tells me the reality will be just a little different

Swashbuckler

Mon 20th to Sun 26th

Monday - Easy 7M with Strides at 8.22 average
Tuesday - 8x800m off 90s
Wednesday - Easy 7M at 8.23 average
Thursday - Easy 6M at 8.24 average
Friday - (3x3min) + 8min + (3x3min) Off 90s
Saturday - Easy 13M finishing Steady at 8.06 average
Sunday - Rest

Been fairly flexible with my "plan" really allowing for how the body is feeling and adjusting the sessions based on how I'm feeling on the day. Had a general outline a few weeks ago and I think two of the three sessions have changed. I'm happy to see myself adjusting and not just blindly sticking to what I had planned. Learning as I go. Bought AMKs recommended book by Brad Hudson and finding it excellent.

The sessions these days are definitely designed to be more specific to 10k with a view to being in decent shape for racing in June/July.

As you can see the slow runs have slowed down quite a bit. Definitely out of necessity. The sessions are much tougher and more aggressive. So the easy runs have slowed down accordingly. I'm definitely taking the view that there are several ways to approach this and my way is worth a shot to see how the body responds. I won't lie, I have my doubts!

The 800s were a fairly meaty session.  All splits were 2.49-2.52 with one outlier. Very consistent and a case of getting into the groove and not really needing to pay much attention to the watch. Form solid but working hard. Overreaching? Maybe.

I was open to changing the Friday session if legs were too tired but I felt up for it. Was down in Kerry so headed out the road to Causeway for a nice little tempo/strength session.
I really like this session. One of Luke's ones from previous. Got chased by a dog so had to do a uturn in the middle of one of the 3mins to show the dog who was boss. He soon retreated. Fecked up my split though... Grrrrr...
The 3min splits were more or less bang on 6min/mile pace. The 8mins was 6.16 average pace. Happy with that and felt strong at the end albeit tired legs from two good sessions.

Another week another long run in Ballyheigue. I'm mad to head out the coast road and hit the big hills but it really wouldn't be smart considering how much is going into the sessions. So keeping the long run on a reasonable route and by reasonable I mean "kerry reasonable" which isn't really reasonable atall. The usual ninja exit and out the door. Was sluggish for first 5 miles but woke up after that. Picked up the pace for the last mile. Feeling strong.

Other news of note was a really decent physio session on Tuesday. Post Limerick relay, the body was showing the early warning signs which I decided to nip in the bud and get sorted. She did a brilliant job and gave me lots of time. Did a tonne of work on the quads in particular. Two days later it was like having a new leg. I have feeling in my thigh which I haven't really had for a long time. Been following a lot of the recommended stretches which seem to be working. Gonna book in again before dunshaughlin to get a top up session.

Trying to figure out what to do after dunshaughlin. I pretty much have up until end of August before the racing will have to be put on hold for a good while. Not sure whether to adjust the training and attach a HM or even some 5ks or just stay in general 10k shape. Definitely racing Tralee 10k in August but unsure of where to take the training after Dunshaughlin. Decisions decisions. Probably shouldn't be getting too far ahead of myself.

Swashbuckler

Mon 27th to Sun 2nd

Monday - Easy 7M plus Strides at 8.13 average
Tuesday - 5x1M off 2.30. Target 5.50.
Wednesday - Easy 7M at 8.18 average
Thursday - Easy 7M at 8.07. average
Friday - Steady Miles on Hills
Saturday - Easy 13M at 8.05 average
Sunday - Rest

Felt good last week. Physio has definitely helped and those little niggles have pretty much eased and the stretching and core work seems to be helping.

Another aggressive session on Tuesday. My original plan had 6 reps but to be honest the more I thought about it the more I thought that was too aggressive. Even at the five reps I was pretty apprehensive ahead of it as it's a tough chunky session at a hard enough pace. I was pleasantly surprised at myself though. Sure I was working pretty hard by the end but it was manageable and definitely a confidence booster.
Splits were 5.48/5.49/5.46/5.50/5.50
Decent stuff and good to have in the bank. I wouldn't be doing chunky sessions like this every week though that's for sure. Not yet anyway!

Wednesday and Thursday runs were kept handy. Thursday was a very early start as the missus was heading up to drool over that Wolverine fella in the 3Arena and I was off work having quality time with baba and grandparents.

Was down in Ballyheigue Friday and had decided I didn't want to do a strictly structured session. Decided to hit the hills of the Ballyheigue 10k route and to keep it steady. My God it's a dog of a route. Not racing it this year thank God. Kept it nice and steady. A nice pressure free run and felt pretty invigorated at the end.

Finally got the opportunity to head out a Kerryhead on my long run. It's a beaut of a route with some big hills. Wouldn't want to be doing it too often. Very early start again and yet another ninja exit. I love coming back to a quiet mobile home with the whole day ahead of me. Very nice run. Total 51.9 miles for the week.

Will go for a shorter speedier session this week and a more structured tempo/threshold run . Feeling good.

Kellygirl

That’s a lot of mileage. Well done. You seem to be really enjoying it right now.