Chapter 2 - Finding Nemo

Murph_D

Congrats P - terrific race. Very consistent alright - May have not picked it all up but didn’t really get a sense of you racing the people around you as much as the watch and the awareness of the beeps/road markers etc. Perhaps that’s part of getting to the next level again. Just a thought (and something I am not very good at myself). Well done.

Swashbuckler

Murph_D wrote:

Congrats P - terrific race. Very consistent alright - May have not picked it all up but didn’t really get a sense of you racing the people around you as much as the watch and the awareness of the beeps/road markers etc. Perhaps that’s part of getting to the next level again. Just a thought (and something I am not very good at myself). Well done.

Cheers D. It's a good point and not something I had given much thought to before now. Looking back I had a target in mind. The conditions were perfect, I was in a race with a very high standard of runners, almost guaranteed a group to run with no matter where I was. It was ideal conditions to try and run a good time rather than racing people and potentially blow up doing so. So there was definitely a conscious decision to try and find a group I could work with and push on if they were going slower than planned target pace.
If I'm honest I don't regret that decision. I don't think I could have ran that race any better.

Murph_D

Absolutely - just a little observation in response to your post-race reflections. It was a super result and shows that you prepared well. Not my intention to pour cold water in it. I notice that Cru runner finished just in front of his clubmate - both very strong runners and I bet they pushed each other all the way!

Swashbuckler

Murph_D wrote:

Absolutely - just a little observation in response to your post-race reflections. It was a super result and shows that you prepared well. Not my intention to pour cold water in it. I notice that Cru runner finished just in front of his clubmate - both very strong runners and I bet they pushed each other all the way!

God no D. Wouldn't consider it cold water. What's the point in having these reports and logs if I'm sensitive to opinionsand inputs and good ones at that. Haha. All good man.

Wubble Wubble

Enjoyed that read P. Well done on a difficult race in the conditions. Doubts from km 4 to 7...happens to me in nearly every 10k! Fingers crossed you'll have quieter neighbours next time you're staying over this side :rolleyes:

eyrie

I'm dead late to be congratulating you on Dunshaughlin but congratulations all the same! Have just read the report and enjoyed it thoroughly, as usual, as well as the musings after it.

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I don't think I could have ran that race any better.

Can't ask for more than that really

coogy

KSU wrote: »

While I get where the lads are coming from regarding the train like a 35 min guy personally I am not really a fan of this. Effort is key we should always be training to current fitness levels. The progress is made by stringing this together week after week, month after month (and yes sometimes year after year) and getting more controlled in that. As corny as it sounds you want to aspire to a zen type stage of training so that by the time races come around you can hover at current PB pace for as long as you need to before kicking on and utilizing the gained fitness. Economy of effort is how you improve as most of us have the top end capacity to go beyond our wildest dreams but its how long it takes us to get to that point (it's only going one way if you reach that at 3k in a 10k race) that determines our race performances.

Progression happens at different rates for different people for a host of reasons (training may look similar but personal background and how a human adapts vary widely) this is why it is important to trust in the approach you have no matter what the approach is because you need almost a blinkered confidence (as long as it is based on common sense and not delusion) that what you are doing will improve you.

Take M for example when he came to me first he told me what he wanted to run come 2020 and said he didn't care what he ran in mean time as long as it was moving in the right direction. His jumps admittedly have been even beyond my wildest dreams at this stage but it has helped give him confidence in the process that can be hard at times when you plateau (sometimes that requires change and other times it is just patience)

I really enjoyed reading these paragraphs. Last year, I was occasionally guilty of expecting too much too soon and convinced myself that I was able for a lot more that my body could handle. It wasn't all bad, as I put in a couple of good performances in races that I look back on now and am still proud of. It was more to do with how I misjudged my own ability. I don't think I was familiar enough with my limitations.

I think a lot of it had to do with my age (I'm not ancient but I'm no spring chicken either) and felt that because I'd come into running relatively late, I had to start cramming in all sort of unrealistic goals before it was too late. Ultimately, you get found out (DCM being a case in point).

Now, thanks to you and many, many others on here, I know that it all takes time and that for as long as I am running and putting the miles in with some regular race experience thrown in, it will all come together.

KSU

coogy wrote: »

I really enjoyed reading these paragraphs. Last year, I was occasionally guilty of expecting too much too soon and convinced myself that I was able for a lot more that my body could handle. It wasn't all bad, as I put in a couple of good performances in races that I look back on now and am still proud of. It was more to do with how I misjudged my own ability. I don't think I was familiar enough with my limitations.

I think a lot of it had to do with my age (I'm not ancient but I'm no spring chicken either) and felt that because I'd come into running relatively late, I had to start cramming in all sort of unrealistic goals before it was too late. Ultimately, you get found out (DCM being a case in point).

Now, thanks to you and many, many others on here, I know that it all takes time and that for as long as I am running and putting the miles in with some regular race experience thrown in, it will all come together.

It's kinda funny for years I went through a cycle of aggressive build ups with different approaches some resulting in PB's (and some not) Each time I got to new levels of fitness I was convinced I had "cracked it" where as now I am realizing that I didn't know much and that the reason for the jumps was not due to what I just did but what came before it.

As the years have gone on I am less interested in the specifics of sessions to an extent because I don't believe that there is too much difference in how they approach things but what is different is what a person does outside of the sessions, whether they gain confidence in there abilities from the sessions and whether they blend together for the overall goal of the plan. As a coach I have prescribed what can be seen as "monster sessions" while others are underwhelming on paper, with the latter being the more crucial to the overall aim of what we are trying to do but overall the main thing is to work appropriately to the point where can keep going forward. Its a difficult these days to invest that much time into training and a coach as we are always worried we are wasting time rather than investing in making long term progression.

This is just a thought and perhaps this could be an overlooked reason for not reaching the "glory days" of the 70s and 80s. Back then feedback was limited and less instant gratification. Hard efforts were hard and easy efforts were easy and it made it easier for consistency. We weren't trying to knock it out of the park with every swing but rather just kept plugging and improving.

Swashbuckler

KSU wrote:

As the years have gone on I am less interested in the specifics of sessions to an extent because I don't believe that there is too much difference in how they approach things but what is different is what a person does outside of the sessions, whether they gain confidence in there abilities from the sessions and whether they blend together for the overall goal of the plan.

This definitely resonates with me. I was asking myself during the week how much of this is physical and how much mental. Confidence since Dunshaughlin (after a few conversations with various people too) has been high and it all just feels a little easier. If I was to hit dunshaughlin tomorrow I'm reasonably convinced I'd do an even better job. The specifics aside, the attitude going into the sessions over the past while has been good. Easy to put that down to fitness gains and I'm sure it's part of it but I'm convinced a lot of it is purely attitude and confidence.

Swashbuckler

I figured I was long overdue an update here rather than derailing other people's logs with my woes. What better time for an update than the middle of the night when I can't find a comfortable position to sleep because of this blasted hip!

Training since dunshaughlin had been going reasonably well. Still on the aggressive side (which is maybe a lesson to be learned). Up until the recently I was feeling very strong. Around July 9th I had a 4x(1M/1k) session which took a little more effort than expected. Nothing off the charts but just tough mentally. I had been on solo dad duty all week and also working in runs whenever I could. Mind and body were tired. I pushed out the planned long run to the Sunday. That run itself felt fine apart from the first signs of a very slight tightness in the hip. And by slight I really mean very little.

Decided to scale back the following week a little with easy on Monday and Tuesday. Felt the tightness still but each time it loosened out as the run progressed. Did a tempo on Wednesday and followed up with an easy Thursday. Has decided Friday would be easy with some strides thrown in. On the Friday I knew within a mile that the tightness was worse than usual. After two miles it was all out pain and I stopped. I knew I couldn't continue and hobbled back to the car hoping I hadn't left it to late. Turns out I had.
By midday Friday I could barely walk. Physio wasn't available til Tuesday. Saturday I was worse and Sunday worse still. A desperate weekend of pain. Felt like it was mostly in the hip. Lots of numbness and tingling in the left quad. In some cases spasms and twitching. Very hard to find anything resembling a comfortable position. Tried rolling the tennis ball in some areas in particular psoas and piriformis which provided some flexibility and relief but not for long. Heat didn't help and neither did cold.

Went to the doc on Monday and he couldn't do anything until I loosened out a bit but thankfully prescribed muscle relaxant and painkillers which I wish worked for longer! The muscle relaxant has definitely given me a little more freedom though. On Monday I couldn't lie on my belly (straightening my back had been causing discomfort in the hip) and at least now there's a bit more freedom.

Had a physio session last night (Tuesday evening). She did the usual checks. My posture isn't great with the pain. Back arched and pelvic tilt. Quad was a tight ball of mess. Piriformis was quite sensitive. She did a lot with the psoas/hip flexor. It's hard to know how much better I am after it. I'll now better tomorrow. Either way this is something I finally need to address. I can't keep coming back to this every few months.

Figuring out the path forward is the tricky part. I guess there are a few questions I need to ask myself.

1. Am I over training.
The honest answer is I feel I've been pushing it a bit even before dunshaughlin. I've needed three physio visits since May.

2. Am I doing enough (any) S&C.
Nope. Zilch. I'm prioritizing what time I have during the week towards time on feet on the roads.

3. Am I forcing it.
If I'm Honest I have to say yes. I did the same the last time we were due a new arrival. It became all about getting the most out of my running before the obvious drop in level with sleepless nights etc. I should know better by now but that's one of the downsides to not having a coach to slap you round the head when you're being an idiot. I need to get back to the mentality I had which was not pb driven. Enjoy the process not the outcome. That being said, the injury has never escalated as quickly as it did this time.

Anyway what does this all mean. Unfortunately it means I have more questions than answers.

The reality is my year in terms of peaking is over. That's not me being pessimistic. I think it's just realistic to say that come September everything will be gearing up towards new baba. I had August pegged as hitting Banna and Tralee 10k as my last races for a while. In all reality this injury feels like it will take at least a week before I'm free to run again and when I do it will be conservative running.

So given the timeframe I'm looking at I'm expecting August to be conservative building, september/October to be maintenance. November/December to be figuring out what level of running fits into the new lifestyle of having two babas!

I'm tempted to start adding in some S&C now with a view to the rest of the year being a huge extended "base building" phase but I'm not sure is that overkill ie. is there such a thing as too much base building? The three things my physio asked me to do was keep the quad stretched even when it feels good, keep the psoas stretched even when it feels good, prioritise the core as she feels it's the core weakening when fatigued and the quads and psoas are then taking over the load.

So there's my update of woes. I'm a bit more philosophical this time. I had been doing more reading of late in particular the brad hudson book. I had kinda set in my mind that one thing I wanted to do well in 2020 was structure the year and really have a good base building phase. Seeing a Luke's approach to DCM (apart from some hiccups) was something that resonated with me. I like the thoughts of a good strong base phase. So we'll see. I'll have some chats offline with my usual "advisors ' haha. But also welcome any inputs from the regular readers here.

OOnegative

Get an MRI on the hip, when I had issues with mine I had seen two physios who diagnosed my issue as back pain before I eventually struck gold with no 3(not questioning your physio by the way) only my thoughts from suffering with similar woes in the past.

Swashbuckler

Question away man. I know only too well. I went to a physio with this in December and he spent half an hour working behind my knee! I suspect the doctor on Thursday will send me for a scan

Kellygirl

I really hope you get sorted soon P. Definitely a good time to start introducing S&C. I’d say a nice and slow introduction with a few short workouts a week. For me, I was struggling to fit in the long workouts at home but reducing them to 10-15 mins makes it much easier. Might not be perfect but surely better than nothing.

MY BAD

First of all congrats on the future sleepless nights :pac: Every runner is guilty of falling into the same pitfalls when we want to push on. I've noticed anytime I'm getting in form you seem to have a set back and vice versa. If it's a continuous issue a MRI will rule out the guessing, with my achillies injury in 2016 I ended up going to the Santry Sports clinic. The long term solution will probably be consistent strenght work. That doesn't mean going to the gym for a hour two or three times a week either. Getting in a habit of a simple 20 minutes of runner specific complementary exercises in your kitchen might do the job. As frustrating as an injury can be when it happens, I know myself when I look back I've learned more about running when I get injured than when everything is going good. All the best.

Swashbuckler

Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote:

As frustrating as an injury can be when it happens, I know myself when I look back I've learned more about running when I get injured than when everything is going good. All the best.

I have to say I completely agree with this. Applying those lessons consistently has been my downfall. Should I have kept up the stretches and core work? Yes. Should I have eased off sooner in the last few weeks? Yes. Should I have really ramped up some of those sessions without any real progression? No. As the physio said, it's unlikely this was caused by one session in particular its an accumulation of stress over time that, when ignored, all of a sudden the body says "hey I remember this happened before and we didn't like it all that much, shut down quick!."

Look it's part and parcel of running. We cant really push the envelope without learning some of these lessons along the way. There's a reason you see all those NazElite lads in the gym, there's a reason some of the high level runners on here have a S&C program of some sorts. I was getting away with it for long enough but in the last two years and training has ramped I think my body just won't allow it without some help. Unfortunately I'm not a young man anymore!

Duanington

Sorry to read this, P

BUT - it is only running...and we're all idiots when it comes to forcing it a bit when we know we shouldn't be. Take the time out to get whatever weakness is there strengthened up and you'll be the better runner for it long term.

Like you say, injury is part of running and the S+C stuff will give you something else to focus on while you reassess the running thing for the rest of the year.

Its easy to say you'll be back stronger than ever or you'll forget you were ever injured or whatever else well meaning people throw out there - the truth is, it'll happen again if you let it so get to the bottom of the problem, sort it out....then keep it sorted out :-)

Swashbuckler

Duanington wrote:

Its easy to say you'll be back stronger than ever or you'll forget you were ever injured or whatever else well meaning people throw out there - the truth is, it'll happen again if you let it so get to the bottom of the problem, sort it out....then keep it sorted out :-)

Cheers D. I appreciate that. I guess the issue or lack of clarity I have is what is the real issue. If I was to listen to my physio it would be I need to sort my core out and with that the glutes will kick in and then the quad and hip flexor will dominate less. But I could go to ten physios and I guarantee I'd get four or five different opinions.
One important point I want to make is my physio, in fairness, has generally done a super job in clearing a lot of the pain and numbness ive had. And I've been bombarded with info from her on everything my inner network is doing right and wrong. I mean that in a good way. So part of me has complete trust in what she's saying but another part of me wonders is she really hitting exactly what the issue is for me. What is the imbalance? Would core stability work really fix the issue? If so then great. But I don't want to waste a bunch of time working on the wrong thing so to speak.

This has been one of the reasons I've veered away from the marathon. I know these issues will bite me as I ramp up to marathon level training.

Swashbuckler

Kellygirl wrote:

I really hope you get sorted soon P. Definitely a good time to start introducing S&C. I’d say a nice and slow introduction with a few short workouts a week. For me, I was struggling to fit in the long workouts at home but reducing them to 10-15 mins makes it much easier. Might not be perfect but surely better than nothing.

I need to steal your coach

Duanington

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Cheers D. I appreciate that. I guess the issue or lack of clarity I have is what is the real issue. If I was to listen to my physio it would be I need to sort my core out and with that the glutes will kick in and then the quad and hip flexor will dominate less. But I could go to ten physios and I guarantee I'd get four or five different opinions.
One important point I want to make is my physio, in fairness, has generally done a super job in clearing a lot of the pain and numbness ive had. And I've been bombarded with info from her on everything my inner network is doing right and wrong. I mean that in a good way. So part of me has complete trust in what she's saying but another part of me wonders is she really hitting exactly what the issue is for me. What is the imbalance? Would core stability work really fix the issue? If so then great. But I don't want to waste a bunch of time working on the wrong thing so to speak.

This has been one of the reasons I've veered away from the marathon. I know these issues will bite me as I ramp up to marathon level training.

Have you gotten a specific programme from your physio to address the imbalance/weakness ? That would be something I’d be looking for

Also - as mentioned above, these s+c sessions really don’t have to be very time consuming. I get mine done in 10 minute blocks over the course of the week

Kellygirl

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I need to steal your coach

She’s a great find I have to say

eyrie

Sorry to read about the woes P - particularly hard to stomach when you're not sure the root cause has been identified. I'd suggest getting a second opinion just to give reassurance but like you say there's the likelihood of getting a totally different diagnosis from someone else. I guess go with your gut about that. No advice to offer but I hope you get treatment or a rehab routine that works and you're back to normal (or, normal with added S+C ) soon.

shotgunmcos

Crap P - sorry to hear.

I know I'm one to talk (just as guilty of forcing things)! I've come through 2 months of a hip issue (Never pain like you are experiencing) and still actively managing it. Typical I picked up a small calf knot as soon as I was ready to go but I know what that is and what to do :rolleyes:

Thing is the hip is a real pain in the arse, literally! Particularly if your Glute Med (the outside of your glute/hip that provides the stability on foot strike as apposed the glute max that drives the strides after the foot impact). Plus the opposite hip and quads enage differently to compensate for the discomfort.

The one thing I've done more consistently than running since identifying the hip/glute issue is roll my mat out and spend time on it particularly focusing on glute strength, hip mobility and flexibility and core. It made a difference

At first it was just a supplement to running but I've learned its real importance to sustanance of running and as such trest it with the same immportance I'd treat a tempo run. Its well worthwhile getting used to it as you gradully ease back to your base etc..

shotgunmcos

Duanington wrote: »

Have you gotten a specific programme from your physio to address the imbalance/weakness ? That would be something I’d be looking for

Also - as mentioned above, these s+c sessions really don’t have to be very time consuming. I get mine done in 10 minute blocks over the course of the week

100% agree
10-15min of the right specific exerices, done regularly, will maximise the time and provide real benefits.

Baby75

Sorry to hear about the injury and I truly understand the frustration that comes with it. I am also nodding my head in agreement to the sound advice you have gotten already. especially S&C my coach has me doing 3 sessions a week at the start it was 10 to 15 minutes and as I have gotten stronger and can do more reps and add in more resistance it is about 25 minutes now.

Good luck and I hope the hip starts to feel better soon

Swashbuckler

Latest update on the injury front (as I try to remember where I left off). Since the physio I've been to the doc again as there wasn't much he could do for me in the first visit coz everything was just flared up and angry. He took a look and had a poke around. He didn't seem all that concerned in terms of serious issues with the hip or pelvis. He wants me to go for an MRI which is great. Happy about that.

I have to say this has been the most frustratingly flaky injury I've experienced. I made a point of resting all week. Had to take the week off work as I couldn't really walk any sort of distance without having to sit down for some relief. Felt good yesterday. Had less pain during the day. Took my painkiller before bed and hey presto woke at 2.15am in a lot of discomfort. Probably more the upper thigh than the hip. But it's hard to pinpoint as the general area including the hip can get sore depending on what I'm doing or how I've been sitting. Couldn't get back to sleep with the pain. Awake since.

Physio is booked for Thursday again next week. Been on the phone to her quite a bit. She's brilliant in fairness. Doing as much as she can remotely. She very much feels like it's the hip flexor causing a lot of the discomfort. And some very pissed off tendons. Will be going back to the doc tomorrow asking for better pain relief. I'm not running on this until I'm completely pain free. Swimming isn't an option for me either so keeping cardio ticking over is a bit of a concern. I think I'll have to make do with substituting my usual running time with some light core work that doesn't anger the area. Right now even a lunge causes me pain in the left quad. Pain rather than stiffness so that's not good. So we'll see. I know this will probably sound like me lying to myself but I've been pretty OK about it all. This has forced me to take a step back which I wouldn't have taken otherwise and if I'm honest I think I needed it. Pain aside, my mood has been surprisingly good. With that being said another lesson learned from this is I need to approach my training differently going forward, meaning not pushing the envelope all the time.

Some decent advice from the former bossman lately stuck with me. One thing he has learned is not to progress all sessions equally all the time. Try to aim for one specific session per week and a second one which is "supplementary". Paraphrasing but basically you can't ramp everything equally all of the time. Looking at my training over the past two months, Jesus some weeks were two big big sessions plus a long run. You live and learn and no doubt will forget and need to relearn.

So I've been looking at my plan going forward. Obviously with new baba on the horizon the main thing will be, get pain free and string a couple of easy weeks together and see how the leg is. No sessions in that timeframe. Then if all is good keep it easy but start adding in some S&C. Nothing fancy but some core work, glute bridges, some of the myrtl stuff etc. If it means that I initially need to drop a day of running then so be it. I get the feeling that might be a blessing in disguise once baba arrives anyway.

Once I'm happy that I can mentally and physically manage training, two kids, a wife recovering from childbirth and work then I'll look to kick into my "plan".

I've been reading the brad hudson book and I do like elements of it. So some aspects will definitely be incorporated. One thing is the phasing. Base, fundamental and specific. I think what I plan to do a little differently is having a longer combined base/fundamental phase next year. One thing I think I did this year was I rushed too quick to the specific stuff. I don't want to make that mistake again. I expect to have a nice long base where I start introducing some light fartlek stuff once a week and building up from steady to tempo/strength base stuff on the second "session" day of the week. More short hill sprints like AMK has been doing on the easy runs and sprinkling of strides here and there too. Building up the long run to 13-15M. If I can, and it works out I'd like to have one easy run during the week that's a little longer but that will be lifestyle dependent. I'd like my mileage to be in the 55 mile range. Would prefer higher but I doubt time will allow it. My mantra of "don't ramp more than two things at once" remains. Work/Family/Running. They can't all ramp together.

I won't go into the specifics of the rest of the plan as this post has become too long winded as it is but I'd look to be moving into some longer hill sessions and building threshold stuff in the fundamental phase. But that being said I'll continue to try and blend in training across the full pace range throughout the year. All in all it's probably not far off a 26 week "plan". But we'll see. That could change. A lot depends on how this recovery goes and how we adapt to two babies. One thing is for sure, the period of time where we're establishing our new routine will be mostly base building or "run when I can, how I can, if I can"

I'd love some thoughts from people on their own approaches to base building, phasing training etc. But I expect most of ye are all feckin marathon runners in which case it's a very different ballgame.

Any thoughts of marathon training for me have gone out the window at least for the first half of next year anyway.

If I was to ask specific questions to the gang on here it would be;

Is there such a thing as too long base building?

If you're coming from a decent level of fitness should base building be a little more on the "aggressive" side or is the general approach of going after neuromuscular improvements and building strength the right way to go?

Swashbuckler

Just to add all of the above is dependent on good news on the injury.

chickey2

Hope you get the injury fixed soon and it doesn't hold you back too much. I've no advice on training but I will recommend a book I've just read about managing your passions with regular life: "The Passion Paradox" by Brad Stulberg and Steve Magness. It's not particularly about running but as Steve magness is a co-author a lot of the stories are about athletes. I've found it useful for work as well as running.
Anyway, here's the blurb from Amazon:

The coauthors of the bestselling Peak Performance dive into the science behind passion, revealing the ways in which passion is a double-edged sword and offering a plan for following your passion and going all in without ruining your life.

Common advice is to find and follow your passion. A life of passion is a good life, or so we are told. But it's not that simple. Rarely is passion something that you just stumble upon, and the same drive that fuels breakthroughs--whether they're athletic, scientific, entrepreneurial, or artistic--can be every bit as destructive as it is productive. Yes, passion can be a wonderful gift, but only if you know how to channel it. If you're not careful, passion can become an awful curse, leading to endless seeking, suffering, and burnout.
Brad Stulberg and Steve Magness once again team up, this time to demystify passion, showing readers how they can find and cultivate their passion, sustainably harness its power, and avoid its dangers. They ultimately argue that passion and balance--that other virtue touted by our culture--are incompatible, and that to find your passion, you must lose balance. And that's not always a bad thing. They show readers how to develop the right kind of passion, the kind that lets you achieve great things without ruining your life. Swift, compact, and powerful, this thought-provoking book combines captivating stories of extraordinarily passionate individuals with the latest science on the biological and psychological factors that give rise to--and every bit as important, sustain--passion.

Swashbuckler

Thanks chickey. I'm actually signed up to the newsletter so I've been following the articles for quite a while. To be honest I'm a desperate book reader. I'm still only halfway through Brad hudson book and I've had that for ages. And once I finish reading that I'm gonna have to read it again to absorb what I missed the first time!

healy1835

Any thoughts of marathon training for me have gone out the window at least for the first half of next year anyway.

- 'Noonan Declares for DCM 2020!'

Swashbuckler

healy1835 wrote:

- 'Noonan Declares for DCM 2020!'

Haha. This body is not cut out for marathon training.