300% more properties available on Airbnb than daft

whatnext

AirBnB as a landlord is not a bed of roses. The work is huge and the difference in gains are minimal. The key difference is risk.
Rework the laws to facilitate swift removal of delinquent tenants, enforce debt recovery on them also and within 1 week there will be 3 less airBnB's and 3 more properties available for rent in Dublin, I'm sure others would do the very same.

By swift I mean they if they are in rent arrears by 30 days they are out on the 30th day, by force if necessary. They become the states problem not the landlords.

davindub

wordofwarning wrote: »

In what sense?

I see a lot of non-sense on how everyone on Airbnb is evading taxes. Yet none of them seem to realise that Revenue gets data from Airbnb on revenue earned by host. There is zero room for tax evasion, as it is entirely trackable with the paper trail

You would think...

Plenty of people actually do try this, I only meet the ones that have been caught or are about to get caught, but they all complain the system is out to get them, it was a mistake, etc. Just some people think it's unfair not to catch them straight away when penalties are low.

worded

whatnext wrote: »

AirBnB as a landlord is not a bed of roses. The work is huge and the difference in gains are minimal. The key difference is risk.
Rework the laws to facilitate swift removal of delinquent tenants, enforce debt recovery on them also and within 1 week there will be 3 less airBnB's and 3 more properties available for rent in Dublin, I'm sure others would do the very same.

By swift I mean they if they are in rent arrears by 30 days they are out on the 30th day, by force if necessary. They become the states problem not the landlords.

I'm not a LL. It from what I hear you would want to be mad to be one.
A tenant that turns rogue can take 6 months + to get out and little chance to recover lost rent. One of those could bank rupt you

Why doesn't the Govt change the laws on this ?

Ah it's air bnbs fault for not so many let's .... no it clearly isn't

LuckyLloyd

worded wrote: »

What do you mean ?

wordofwarning wrote: »

In what sense?

In the sense that huge swathes of people making money on AirBnB are not paying some or all of the tax they owe.

wordofwarning wrote: »

I see a lot of non-sense on how everyone on Airbnb is evading taxes. Yet none of them seem to realise that Revenue gets data from Airbnb on revenue earned by host. There is zero room for tax evasion, as it is entirely trackable with the paper trail

You are entitled to believe that.

circular flexing

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

In the sense that huge swathes of people making money on AirBnB are not paying some or all of the tax they owe.



You are entitled to believe that.

https://www.airbnb.ca/help/article/1378/responsible-hosting-in-ireland

Reporting Obligations:

Airbnb Ireland is legally required under Sections 888 and 890 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 to provide certain information in relation to Irish host earnings annually to the Irish Revenue. Irish host earnings are:

All rental income earned by Irish resident hosts in respect of both Irish and foreign listings; and
All rental income earned by non-Irish resident hosts in respect of Irish listings.

So if payment is processed through the Airbnb platform (as it should) then it will be reported to Revenue. I would agree that it doesn't necessarily mean the tax is being paid but Revenue do have the data if needed.

LuckyLloyd

People I know utilising the platform aren't paying tax. Maybe Revenue will catch up with them in due course.

beauf

Graham wrote: »

People move out of rented accommodation when they buy, freeing up rental units. Still a gain.

A house renting to 4 or more changes to 1 or 2 occupants. Net loss I reckon.

But I'm sure the Govt will see an opportunity to over heat the market still further while appearing to do something. They've been consistent in that at least.

Graham

beauf wrote: »

A house renting to 4 or more changes to 1 or 2 occupants. Net loss I reckon.

An apartment hosting 4 holidaymakers reverting to even 2 residential occupiers is still a residential gain.

I fail to see your logic to be honest. Returning 3000 properties to the residential market (the equivalent of a small town) is significant however you look at it.

I can think of no easier way for the government to bring 3000 properties to the residential market. It wouldn't even need new legislation.

worded

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

People I know utilising the platform aren't paying tax. Maybe Revenue will catch up with them in due course.

Maybe? It's a digital trail of money paid. You would want to be naieve to think anyone earning over a few 1000 PA will be let away without paying tax on it and fines on top of that for not declaring it.

A few high profile tax cases put on to RTÉ the Govt propaganda machine will have some nervous air bnb hosts dropping the idea

But perhaps I'm wrong

beauf

All the measures so have worked so well. Why not try another.

jamesthepeach

beauf wrote: »

All the measures so have worked so well. Why not try another.

But it's not the fault of the measures you know.
It's evil landlords.
But sure we can get the fcukers some other way with new measures, and blame them when it's gone wrong too.

antoinolachtnai

You can tinker around the edges, and certainly the 'buy-to-airbnb' movement going on in one area of the city should be countered, but at the end of the day, it is only really going to give you back hundreds of units. What we really need is a lot more units.

jamesthepeach

As long as there is someone to blame it's fine.
Ministers are not about housing people. They are about change, blame and leave.

VonBeanie

worded wrote: »

I'm not a LL. It from what I hear you would want to be mad to be one.
A tenant that turns rogue can take 6 months + to get out and little chance to recover lost rent. One of those could bank rupt you

Why doesn't the Govt change the laws on this ?

Ah it's air bnbs fault for not so many let's .... no it clearly isn't

It can be 18+ months and it can very easily bankrupt a small scale landlord.

Addressing this would be the single biggest thing the government could do to tackle the supply of rental property and the drift from long term lets to short term lets by Landlords.

It is possible. In the UK, 3 months rent arrears is automatic grounds for eviction. No messing about with pointless tribunals in the RTB and appeals and appeals of appeals. If a LL has 3 months arrears, its 1 visit to the county court where the LL will get an eviction order - automatically. Its then the local councils job to rehouse the tenant.

In Ireland, the government (local or national) don't want the responsibility to deal with homelessness. Its easier to leave someone squatting in private rented accommodation, than rehouse them. Its short term thinking that is doing more to add to lack of rental supply than any other measure. There just seems to be more votes in addressing the symptoms than solving the problem.

wordofwarning

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

People I know utilising the platform aren't paying tax. Maybe Revenue will catch up with them in due course.

What is the point you are trying to make? What should the state do?

Revenue knows each and every cent they have earned on the platform. They will go after them eventually for taxes owed. Most people using the platform are paying taxes as they are know that there is a paper trail and they have will get caught if they don't pay taxes.

The_Conductor

whatnext wrote: »

AirBnB as a landlord is not a bed of roses. The work is huge and the difference in gains are minimal. The key difference is risk.
Rework the laws to facilitate swift removal of delinquent tenants, enforce debt recovery on them also and within 1 week there will be 3 less airBnB's and 3 more properties available for rent in Dublin, I'm sure others would do the very same.

By swift I mean they if they are in rent arrears by 30 days they are out on the 30th day, by force if necessary. They become the states problem not the landlords.

Just keep in mind- even if every single property on Airbnb were incremented onto Daft- it would only be 4,360 rooms in private residences, and 4,614 residences- many of which are being sublet by tenants (some journalists are suggesting over half of Irish airbnb is by individuals other than the owner of the property)- and not by landlords in the first instance........

Equating Airbnb- with rental property on Daft (or elsewhere)- is comparing apples with pineapples- yes, they're both fruit- but they're most certainly not the same fruit...........

The_Conductor

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You can tinker around the edges, and certainly the 'buy-to-airbnb' movement going on in one area of the city should be countered, but at the end of the day, it is only really going to give you back hundreds of units. What we really need is a lot more units.

Antoin- honestly- I'm not sure that there is such as thing as a buy-to-airbnb sector. Investors do not want to be landlords in the current regulatory regime- period- and while the risk might be lower with airbnb- its a pain in the arse trying to run an airbnb- the maintenance is astronomical, and the demands of airbnb'ers are in some cases insane.......... I sometimes have a look at the comments about properties in certain areas and/or developments on airbnb- when I'm bored, your jaw would drop at the expectations some people have........ Raceweek in Galway-is a bit of an eye opener..........

Anyone who thinks airbnb automatically equates with a commensurate number of rental properties- and is a good measure of rental properties that are being taken out of circulation- is in for a big surprise if/when they regulate to the extent that people abandon airbnb as well...........

A useful measure- Permanent TSB sent letters today to landlords with delinquint mortgages- covering 4 times the number of airbnb lettings nationally- offering to take the properties off their hands, sell them, and cancel the negative equity. Now- that'll make a rather large hole in the rental market- but on the plus side- it will be largely offset by people relinquishing rental properties in favour of buying- however, obviously FTBs won't be interested- which is 60% of the market- so the prices of these will be depressed...........

Another case of be careful what you wish for- you just might get it..........

antoinolachtnai

There is a buy-to-airbnb sector in certain desirable areas (nice residential areas very near the city). I don't know how long it will last, but it does exist.

The_Conductor

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is a buy-to-airbnb sector in certain desirable areas (nice residential areas very near the city). I don't know how long it will last, but it does exist.

Fair enough- I know there is similar in Galway too- however, I would put a serious question mark over how many are involved on the one hand- and to what extent its the owner of the property- rather than the tenant, who is doing this. If you enquire about airbnb in D2 for example- the 'hosts' are almost exclusively of a certain non-national ethnicity- and if you do a similar search in Galway city- this holds true.

Much as I disapprove of airbnb- a lot of the criticism of landlords letting on airbnb- quite simply are illfounded hearsay- the facts on the ground tell an entirely different story. I'm not saying there are no airbnb investors- I am saying they are an incredibly small proportion of the declared hosts- and I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of the owners of properties featured on airbnb- are not aware that their properties are being let there...........

LuckyLloyd

I don't really care whether the Landlords are to blame or not. I have also the same anecdotal conclusions as a tenant in a D2 apartment complex with multiple units let out to AirBnB with respect to the non native nature of the hosts. Not that their ethnicity matters either, the activity is:

A) taking viable long term residential properties off the market
creating a poor experience for genuine residents in a community

Point A is exacerbated when the LandLords have expressly let out their apartment for the purpose of a long term let. That skews figures, reporting, identification, tax considerations, the lot. And it ultimately contributes to a distortion of the rental market.

This is not about scapegoating LandLords, and technically it's not about scapegoating AirBnB. However, just as has been the case in other cities, AirBnB is facilitating unscrupulous character's exploitation of gaps in legislation and inefficiencies in housing / accommodation markets. This creates unregulated economic activity outside the intended scope of planning permission, commercial registration, etc.

AirBnB will say that their vision is for people to let out a spare room when it suits to provide alternative travel options and experiences. The reality is that AirBnB is being used as a commercial platform. The largest purveyor of short term holiday accommodation owns no property. That's a problem.

wordofwarning wrote: »

What is the point you are trying to make? What should the state do?

Revenue knows each and every cent they have earned on the platform. They will go after them eventually for taxes owed. Most people using the platform are paying taxes as they are know that there is a paper trail and they have will get caught if they don't pay taxes.

The State should introduce legislation / regulation into a commercial market. It needs to ask whether this commercial activity is in the current interests of our society, and fits with the short to long term needs of the Capital.

From the Tax perspective, I don't believe Revenue are up to date. And I question the efficacy of their information in scenarios where a tenant (potentially of multiple residential properties) morphs into a host. Your faith in the system is touching though.

professore

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

People I know utilising the platform aren't paying tax. Maybe Revenue will catch up with them in due course.

Revenue don't go after you when you owe €100 tax. They wait until it builds up and then throw interest, penalties and bailiffs at you.

Mrs Shuttleworth

The_Conductor wrote: »

Just keep in mind- even if every single property on Airbnb were incremented onto Daft- it would only be 4,360 rooms in private residences, and 4,614 residences- many of which are being sublet by tenants (some journalists are suggesting over half of Irish airbnb is by individuals other than the owner of the property)- and not by landlords in the first instance........

Equating Airbnb- with rental property on Daft (or elsewhere)- is comparing apples with pineapples- yes, they're both fruit- but they're most certainly not the same fruit...........

Another reason to be ultra cautious in who you let to. Would discovering that a tenant was doing AirBnB be grounds for the shortest possible termination notice?

wordofwarning

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

AirBnB will say that their vision is for people to let out a spare room when it suits to provide alternative travel options and experiences. The reality is that AirBnB is being used as a commercial platform. The largest purveyor of short term holiday accommodation owns no property. That's a problem.

How is it a problem that Airbnb does not own a single unit? I don't think you seem to realise that it how many modern businesses. The largest taxi company in the world, does not a own a single taxi. One of the largest retailers in the world (Amazon) does not own a single store. One of the largest brands of razors in the US (Dollar shaving club), did not own a single factory until recently. Some of the fastest growing banks in the world, don't own a single branch.

Modern business are looking at flawed industries and transforming them. They are disrupting them. Just because they are not 'traditional', does not mean it is a problem.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The State should introduce legislation / regulation into a commercial market. It needs to ask whether this commercial activity is in the current interests of our society, and fits with the short to long term needs of the Capital.

We have hotel rooms full to the brim. If we ban Airbnb, our economy will lose hundreds of million in lost revenue per year. Thousands will lose their jobs, as there is no longer demand for them due to less tourists. I don't know why you are saying that state needs to ask if beneficial to society, when you seem to just want it banned outright

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

From the Tax perspective, I don't believe Revenue are up to date. And I question the efficacy of their information in scenarios where a tenant (potentially of multiple residential properties) morphs into a host. Your faith in the system is touching though.

So you have nothing to indicate that there is a massive tax evasion other than hearsay? You don't really know if there is tax evasion or what info Revenue gets. But you are just going to run with it facilitates tax evasion...

If you don't think Revenue receiving a tax of information on income earned by hosts on Airbnb is sufficient to combat tax evasion, then there is hope in believing in the tax system.

Graham

wordofwarning wrote: »

We have hotel rooms full to the brim. If we ban Airbnb, our economy will lose hundreds of million in lost revenue per year. Thousands will lose their jobs, as there is no longer demand for them due to less tourists. I don't know why you are saying that state needs to ask if beneficial to society, when you seem to just want it banned outright

So the government/local authorities need to look at encouraging tourist accommodation.

The solution to lack of hotel rooms is most definitely not removing much needed residential accommodation from the market.

beauf

Graham wrote: »

So the government/local authorities need to look at encouraging tourist accommodation...

...They did....

... by discouraging long term rentals....

Graham

beauf wrote: »

...They did....

... by discouraging long term rentals....

True enough, the law of unintended consequence.

LuckyLloyd

wordofwarning wrote: »

How is it a problem that Airbnb does not own a single unit? I don't think you seem to realise that it how many modern businesses. The largest taxi company in the world, does not a own a single taxi. One of the largest retailers in the world (Amazon) does not own a single store. One of the largest brands of razors in the US (Dollar shaving club), did not own a single factory until recently. Some of the fastest growing banks in the world, don't own a single branch.

Modern business are looking at flawed industries and transforming them. They are disrupting them. Just because they are not 'traditional', does not mean it is a problem.

I realise how California gestating 'disruptor' businesses work perfectly fine. And while they have figured out new ways to make successful ever growing businesses, it is not clear that the effects of such businesses are positive. Uber's practices in India are utterly abhorrent to take one high profile example; but more relevant to this conversation are the numerous cities looking at the affect of AirBnB on their rental market and society and deciding to curb their activities.

AirBnB hide behind a faux idealism and have not indicated any serious willingness to tackle the platform being used as a largescale commercial activity unless forced to by legislators. And why would they? The more people letting out the more properties in Dublin more frequently the better for their bottom line.

wordofwarning wrote: »

We have hotel rooms full to the brim. If we ban Airbnb, our economy will lose hundreds of million in lost revenue per year. Thousands will lose their jobs, as there is no longer demand for them due to less tourists. I don't know why you are saying that state needs to ask if beneficial to society, when you seem to just want it banned outright

I have no problem with spare rooms being let on AirBnB or, primary occupiers letting out their apartment while away on holidays. However, I have a major problem with long standing residential properties being transferred to sole use on the platform. I have a problem with it because it affects the people living beside those units who didn't sign up to live in a hotel; and I have a problem with it because it distorts the rental market while we're currently in the middle of a housing crisis in Dublin.

Ultimately though, hotel provision is a visible regulated activity that sits within the necessary controls of planning law / employment law / health and safety / etc. Cowboys taking out leases on multiple properties under the auspices of their own use before turning them back out onto AirBnB is clearly problematic. AirBnB would even say it isn't the intention of the platform (not that they would be inclined to stop it).

wordofwarning wrote: »

So you have nothing to indicate that there is a massive tax evasion other than hearsay? You don't really know if there is tax evasion or what info Revenue gets. But you are just going to run with it facilitates tax evasion...

If you don't think Revenue receiving a tax of information on income earned by hosts on Airbnb is sufficient to combat tax evasion, then there is hope in believing in the tax system.

If Revenue were effectively tackling these issues it would have reached the media by now imo. But I don't have figures to back up that assertion, I can't cite percentages of people not paying or underpaying tax owed on AirBnB lets.

beauf wrote: »

...They did....

... by discouraging long term rentals....

I can understand LandLords making a short term choice and moving their Apartments to AirBnB in the current climate. I think legislation is badly needed to make evicting tenants in arrears or responsible for anti social behaviour. The current rental law does not account for all of the AirBnB availability in the city though.

AirBnB needs to be looked at and brought to heel. Eviction related legislation is needed. More new builds are needed. Numerous things need to happen. Doing one, or not doing another fails to invalidate things being required.

circular flexing

wordofwarning wrote: »

One of the largest retailers in the world (Amazon) does not own a single store.

Actually they did just buy Whole Foods Market and are expanding the physical bookstore locations and they are experimenting with opening food stores too.

We have hotel rooms full to the brim. If we ban Airbnb, our economy will lose hundreds of million in lost revenue per year. Thousands will lose their jobs, as there is no longer demand for them due to less tourists. I don't know why you are saying that state needs to ask if beneficial to society, when you seem to just want it banned outright

So we should make sure there's enough space for all the tourists who want to visit Dublin to the detriment of the people who actually want to live/work/pay tax here?

beauf

I think the point is its burning both ends of the same candle.

Thus far every intervention by the Govt (other then building new stock) hasn't worked and indeed caused a new problem somewhere else.

circular flexing

beauf wrote: »

I think the point is its burning both ends of the same candle.

Thus far every intervention by the Govt (other then building new stock) hasn't worked and indeed caused a new problem somewhere else.

Arguably supply is being constrained by Govt policy and local zoning policies.