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What can be done to make the bidding on a second hand home more transparent

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    #62
    mloc123
    Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    qrx wrote: »
    The problem is you can bid on a house and have no intentions of actually going through with it. Especially as an estate agent will tell you the only way to stay in the loop and keep informed is to put a bid in. So I could have some airy fairy plan to move next year or whenever and be looking around at houses to see what the story is and sticking bids in just to keep informed. Or I might have got mortgage approval on an online calculator and have plucked a value for my home out of thin air and go around sticking bids in.

    This is happening. Suits the vendors, suits the estate agents. EA will be fairly clued in as to who is a genuine bidder but will take your bid regardless because it pushes the bar up a notch for anyone coming after.

    I am not sure how this is a problem...? So you stick a bid in, it isn't accepted by the seller right? So how does this impact somebody else coming along a month later?

    If the seller wasn't willing to let it go to the tyre kicker at that price, they will not let it go to the genuine buyer either. There is no way to force a seller to sell their house for what somebody else thinks is a fair price... it is their property and they will sell it for whatever the value they have in mind. It doesn't matter if it takes 1 bidder or 20 to get there.


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    #63
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


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    #64
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    ....... wrote: »
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    That doesn't make it a regular occurrence.
    ....... wrote: »
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    You can't have it all ways. If you'd like something to be done about it, use the process available.

    No point complaining that something should be done if you're not willing to use the 'something'.
    ....... wrote: »
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    That's not my experience, and judging by many many posts, it's not the experience of other posters.

    Cash buyers are asked for proof of funds in the same way as those relying on a mortgage.
    ....... wrote: »
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    Lot's more can, could, might, may. No evidence of it happening on anything like a regular basis.

    If you have evidence that it is happening, report it.


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    #65
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


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    #66
    mloc123
    Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    ....... wrote: »
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    In my experience with any houses we have looked at in the last few months, the agent wants an AIP letter from your bank or a solicitors letting confirming you have cash to cover the cost. That is with multiple agents.


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    #67
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭1641


    So, would any of those who have convinced themselves that the current system is rigged against them prefer a "Dutch Auction"? As in a standard auction, any prospective buyer would have to have done their survey and legals in advance (ouch).

    A Dutch auction is a type of auction in which the auctioneer begins with a high asking price which is lowered until some participant is willing to accept the auctioneer's price, or a predetermined reserve price (the seller's minimum acceptable price) is reached. The winning participant pays the last announced price. This is also known as a clock auction or an open-outcry descending-price auction.

    This type of auction is convenient when it is important to auction goods quickly, since a sale never requires more than one bid. The Dutch auction guarantees that the best possible price is obtained, in contrast to a traditional auction where the winning bidder may have been prepared to bid considerably more.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_auction


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    #68
    qrx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 642 ✭✭✭qrx


    mloc123 wrote: »
    I am not sure how this is a problem...? So you stick a bid in, it isn't accepted by the seller right? So how does this impact somebody else coming along a month later?

    If the seller wasn't willing to let it go to the tyre kicker at that price, they will not let it go to the genuine buyer either. There is no way to force a seller to sell their house for what somebody else thinks is a fair price... it is their property and they will sell it for whatever the value they have in mind. It doesn't matter if it takes 1 bidder or 20 to get there.

    The bid is rejected but someone else a month later has to go above that bid on the false premise that "there is a bid in at 10K over the asking". even though there isn't. You're bidding against someone who is gone. Can you not see how that is conning people?

    And houses are not selling regardless. Vendors are getting greedy and houses are getting pulled from the market despite being offered on or above the asking. anyone who has been looking for longer than a year will tell you the same properties are popping up. Oh that one again, I thought that was sale agreed? See it all the time. I've seen it for properties I've been outbid on and would have genuine honoured my bid if they had gotten back to me. But a vendor who has a bid of 20K over the asking just will not settle for the next in line 10K over the asking. They'll just pull out, then a year later the sun is out and the independent property porn section is reporting a return to the boom times, sure lets try again only this time lets lash the price up another 50K.

    The whole thing is a mess. It needs a formal process governed by legislation, just like Scotland.

    I'm sounding like a broken record here so i'll leave it at that.


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    #69
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


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    #70
    mloc123
    Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    qrx wrote: »
    The bid is rejected but someone else a month later has to go above that bid on the false premise that "there is a bid in at 10K over the asking". even though there isn't. You're bidding against someone who is gone. Can you not see how that is conning people?

    And houses are not selling regardless. Vendors are getting greedy and houses are getting pulled from the market despite being offered on or above the asking. anyone who has been looking for longer than a year will tell you the same properties are popping up. Oh that one again, I thought that was sale agreed? See it all the time. I've seen it for properties I've been outbid on and would have genuine honoured my bid if they had gotten back to me. But a vendor who has a bid of 20K over the asking just will not settle for the next in line 10K over the asking. They'll just pull out, then a year later the sun is out and the independent property porn section is reporting a return to the boom times, sure lets try again only this time lets lash the price up another 50K.

    The whole thing is a mess. It needs a formal process governed by legislation, just like Scotland.

    I'm sounding like a broken record here so i'll leave it at that.


    Again... I don't see the issue here. It is frustrating for sure, there is a house we were interested in but we figured out very quickly that the sellers were just tyre kickers... they have no intention of selling, but what can you do? You cross it off your list and move onto a house that people want to sell.

    This isn't an issue with ghost bidders, this is an issue where the seller is not pushed to sell and will happily wait for an offer that matches their figure in mind to come in.

    You say that you have been outbid and the higher bid falls through etc.. if the seller was happy to sell it for the price you offered surely they would come back to you, but they are not... they want more than you have bid and you cannot force them to sell it to you at that price.

    The examples you are giving... you are never bidding against somebody else, you are bidding against what the seller wants to achieve for the house... and a transparent system will not fix that.


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    #71
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    If you can,t get a bid accepted on a house after a few weeks move on,
    look at other houses in the area .
    I think the mistake some people make is say they have approval for 200k,
    the look only at houses over 170k,
    and get out bid by investors or cash buyers .
    Who will bid 220k or more.


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    #72
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭1641


    qrx wrote: »


    The whole thing is a mess. It needs a formal process governed by legislation, just like Scotland.

    qrx, In relation specifically to alleged "phantom bidding", what precisely are the safeguards provided for by the Scottish system?


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    #73
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    1641 wrote: »
    qrx, In relation specifically to alleged "phantom bidding", what precisely are the safeguards provided for by the Scottish system?

    The way it's meant to work is all bids are sealed and submitted by a nominated closing date. Following that, all the bids are opened and the highest bid is chosen.

    However, the highest bid doesn't necessarily need to be chosen and there's nothing legally binding about the highest bid and bidders can still get gazumped.

    In relation to phantom bidding, it does lessen any impact there since you're bidding blind.


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    #74
    koheim
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭koheim


    Here is an easy solution: Make all bids legally binding, with severe penalties if successful bid does not followed through.

    It is done in other countries...


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    #75
    qrx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 642 ✭✭✭qrx


    1641 wrote: »
    qrx, In relation specifically to alleged "phantom bidding", what precisely are the safeguards provided for by the Scottish system?
    The bids go through your solicitors.


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    #76
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭1641


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    The way it's meant to work is all bids are sealed and submitted by a nominated closing date. Following that, all the bids are opened and the highest bid is chosen.

    However, the highest bid doesn't necessarily need to be chosen and there's nothing legally binding about the highest bid and bidders can still get gazumped.

    In relation to phantom bidding, it does lessen any impact there since you're bidding blind.

    Thanks, Michael D.

    In a way house-bidding is like playing poker. If you lose several hands you may think the game is rigged. But maybe you are up against better poker players and/or someone with a stronger hand. In a way it could be called unfair because the player acting on behalf of the Vendor is a professional.You could counter this, I suppose, be engaging an agent to act on your behalf - unusual here but common in at least some parts of the US, I believe.

    The Scottish system seems just like a different version of the same poker game.Some may prefer it, some our own.


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    #77
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭1641


    koheim wrote: »
    Here is an easy solution: Make all bids legally binding, with severe penalties if successful bid does not followed through.

    It is done in other countries...

    A little bit like a public auction here. I bet a lot of potential purchaser would not welcome this - as many are wary of public auctions. Plus you would have to have done your survey and legals in advance - costly if you lose. And if you lose several times it is very costly.

    How does it work in the countries you refer to ? What is the consumer satisfaction like? No conspiracy theories?


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