Should date be set to cut off long-term dole wasters ?"

RayM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I've done my fair share of hiring and firing and to be honest I'd be thrilled getting a cv from someone who wanted to work and not be on the dole. It wouldn't deter me in the slightest from giving them a chance. People coming in half arsed, asking for x amount of days on the books and available for extra off the books, but refusing a full time position would get my back up but never someone genuinely trying to help themselves.

What if the applicant was (in the words of the OP) a "long-term dole waster"? All other things being equal, would the fact that their CV had a large dole-shaped gap not be a cause for concern?

Stonedpilot

All the self loathing unemployed on this bashing the dole (oh the irony!.)

Said it before and say it again.I believe People with good jobs and busy lifes dont bother with this forum. They haven't time and cant be bothered endulging in the incessant ego masturbation and petty squabbles that are utterly meaningless that makes up this site.

Count Marcula

Dole and airbnb is the way to go

Spider Web

Stonedpilot wrote: »

All the self loathing unemployed on this bashing the dole (oh the irony!.)

Because you've proof of course that the people in question are unemployed (however you know they're likely not).

Said it before and say it again.I believe People with good jobs and busy lifes dont bother with this forum. They haven't time and cant be bothered endulging in the incessant ego masturbation and petty squabbles that are utterly meaningless that makes up this site.

What was that about irony?

alberto67

Yes, a date should be set and it should be on Paddy's day, to cheer them up.

There are generally 3 types of person on the dole.

1. The genuine case making an effort to get work, generally has kids, mortgage, etc. and needs a job faster than you can imagine.

2. The genuine case who accepts it as a lifestyle as they can't be assed making an effort anymore because they've been worn down by the system and job/interview refusals, but will be on courses, schemes etc to try and get by.

3. The scumbag variety who views it as a lifestyle and the type you don't want to associate with.


If you cut off the dole, you incentivise all of the above to get an income. Unfortunately, I would imagine that the amount of hardship caused on people in brackets 1 and 2 above, would be overshadowed by the amount of burglaries, theft, pick-pocketing, etc. that bracket 3 would turn to, to increase their income.

Dublin, for example, would quickly become an extremely unsafe place, as people would know that only those with money would be out for the night, and therefore would aggressively target such people.


If you can't see that happening a mile off, you need your eyes checked. Cutting the dole is a great idea in theory. Not so much in practice.

bobbyss

I thought part of the conditions of getting the dole was to prove that you were looking for work? Is that not the case? Is any agency tracking the unemployed in that regard?

Kermit.de.frog

Deleted User wrote: »

If you can't see that happening a mile off, you need your eyes checked. Cutting the dole is a great idea in theory. Not so much in practice.

So you are intimidated by the wasters and therefore pay them off?

How about we had a proper police force and justice system and then cut them off?

It's your taxes, it's your hard earned money. **** them.

mikemac2

anna080 wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder how can you be "genuinely seeking work" for 5 years?

If you're late fifties / early sixties and laboured on construction sites well your body may be wrecked and who is going to hire you? Plenty lost their jobs in factories too for another example

You could retrain but people here may just bide their time until the pension. Taxi driving would seem the most obvious job if they wanted to work

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

RayM wrote: »

What if the applicant was (in the words of the OP) a "long-term dole waster"? All other things being equal, would the fact that their CV had a large dole-shaped gap not be a cause for concern?

To be honest, if they were sitting in front of me asking for work, not so much. What have they done with their time? Have they done ce schemes, programmes courses etc trying to become more employable? Have they volunteered? Why are they looking for this job? Do they want work or are they only here to keep the social off their backs? If it's the former, it's fine but the latter? Nah.

bobbyss

LexieOnRale wrote:

To be honest, if they were sitting in front of me asking for work, not so much. What have they done with their time? Have they done ce schemes, programmes courses etc trying to become more employable? Have they volunteered? Why are they looking for this job? Do they want work or are they only here to keep the social off their backs? If it's the former, it's fine but the latter? Nah.

If in fact they had been doing nothing ; if they had not engaged in volunteering, retraining or trying any schemes at all for 5-10 years let's say, do you think their dole should be cut?

Annasopra

Deleted User wrote: »

Argument is ridiculous and should be out to bed once and for all

You can happily work yourself while having an issue with the social welfare setup.

It's a remarkably stupid point to make in these threads and it comes up again and again.

Its really not a stupid point at all. Go on the dole yourself and then come back if you still have a problem.

Will I Am Not

Cutting off their entire social welfare after 5 years isn't a good idea at all but some measures should be put in place to remove it as a lifestyle option.

Anyone in their 30s with no employment history whatsoever should be asked to explain themselves.
I know of people like this who seemingly expected people to call to their houses in the boom times with job offers.
Every time you seen them "Can't get a job"
You don't want a job you lazy prick.

Annasopra

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

What needs to be done is better tracking of individual welfare cases. For example, each month when signing on, the welfare recipient would be asked for evidence in printed form that they are actively seeking employment.

They do this already

Annasopra

Harry Palmr wrote: »

People who are signing on for 6 months should be guided with some force towards education/training of some form based on their aptitude/education/work history. No one should be allowed to "just sit on their arse" and to be fair the DSP seems to be making efforts in this area though I suspect they are doing as little as possible in terms of "core mission"

This happens already

eviltwin

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

Cutting off their entire social welfare after 5 years isn't a good idea at all but some measures should be put in place to remove it as a lifestyle option.

Anyone in their 30s with no employment history whatsoever should be asked to explain themselves.
I know of people like this who seemingly expected people to call to their houses in the boom times with job offers.
Every time you seen them "Can't get a job"
You don't want a job you lazy prick.

They already are arent they? Anyone long term unemployed has to link in with employment services or have their dole cut. But if you don't want to work its easy enough to make yourself unemployable.

pwurple

No.

There are people out there who are effectively unemployable, for whatever reason.

While I would not give them a job, I don't want them to die of starvation either.

Donal55

A lot of the 'long term dole scroungers' who I know actually do work, and are quite good at their jobs.

I have availed in the past of various plumbers, brickies, carpenters etc.

osarusan

pwurple wrote: »

I don't want them to die of starvation either.

Commie!!

dr.fuzzenstein

Easiest way to get every single person of the dole immediately?
Introduce unconditional Basic Income.
It works on the principle that people want to work and not sit around. The career scroungers would still sit around and do nothing, but now we don't need a billion Euro apparatus spying after them to tell us something we already know.
The vast majority could use it to do something they enjoy, take risks with their career to do something more fulfilling instead of rotting away in dead end, bullsh*t jobs and doing the absolute minimum to get by.
I believe it would save money in the long run.

siblers

I don't for a second think people should be cut off from the dole (unless they are claiming while working) but I never really understood why the Irish government is so passive to people who are long term unemployed, I have a friend who is 32, he has been on the dole for around the last 6 or 7 years, I don't think he has applied for a single job in those years and hasn't done any night classes or courses except for a 4 week course on using Microsoft Word. The government has done nothing to help him get a new job or help him skill up.

I know you have the likes of Springboard which is all well and good but he obviously is happy out sitting on the dole and won't bother turning up for those courses, surely in cases like this, he should be required to attend classes or courses or be involved in community employment schemes, just seems mad to allow him sit on the dole for the rest of his life. I know in some cases, people will always be on the dole but this guy is quite intelligent, he just needs some guidance to get him back on trail which he isn't getting from Turas Nua or whatever they are called

I was on the dole myself for about 9 months when I lost my job and the goverment did **** all to help me get a new one, luckily I found one but for cases like my friend, I honestly don't ever see him not being on the dole

begbysback

Should a date be set to cut off oxygen for those who start dole bashing threads?

suicide_circus

There are plenty of countries in which the level of job seekers benefits reduces over time, countries with much better socialist credentials than ireland. It's not an attempt to crucify the poor, it's a prudent strategy to keep the maximum number of people in the workforce.

ellobee

well with the retirement age heading for 70 there is going to be more long term dole recipients, anyone losing their job in their late fifties or early sixties will find it very difficult to get work, also I believe those agencies that check if people are actively looking for work dont bother with people over 60, even they think they're a lost cause.

Spider Web

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Its really not a stupid point at all. Go on the dole yourself and then come back if you still have a problem.

They explained themselves very well but due to slavishness to an ideology, the above inane, bland comment was the best you could do.
It's very simple - saying there are people who exploit the system and believe they are entitled to numerous things for nothing or next to nothing (which there most certainly are - I used to think it wasn't true but now I know for a fact it is) is not an attack on people who actually need state support. And it is not a claim that life is brilliant as a benefits scrounger - it's just saying they're exploiting the system and shouldn't be, that's all.
In the topsy turvy world of the far left though, the full-time worker who criticises the exploitative/self entitled/irresponsible... is worse than the exploitative/self entitled/irresponsible.

siblers wrote: »

I don't for a second think people should be cut off from the dole (unless they are claiming while working) but I never really understood why the Irish government is so passive to people who are long term unemployed, I have a friend who is 32, he has been on the dole for around the last 6 or 7 years, I don't think he has applied for a single job in those years and hasn't done any night classes or courses except for a 4 week course on using Microsoft Word. The government has done nothing to help him get a new job or help him skill up.

I know you have the likes of Springboard which is all well and good but he obviously is happy out sitting on the dole and won't bother turning up for those courses, surely in cases like this, he should be required to attend classes or courses or be involved in community employment schemes, just seems mad to allow him sit on the dole for the rest of his life. I know in some cases, people will always be on the dole but this guy is quite intelligent, he just needs some guidance to get him back on trail which he isn't getting from Turas Nua or whatever they are called

I was on the dole myself for about 9 months when I lost my job and the goverment did **** all to help me get a new one, luckily I found one but for cases like my friend, I honestly don't ever see him not being on the dole

He couldn't be bothered getting off his hole but it's the government's responsibility? That's populism gone up to 11.

Sleeper12

Even at the height of the boom and we had import foreign workers were had unemployment. We'll always have toss pots.
Why isn't it illegal to knowingly employ a tradesman in your home who isn't changing you vat? Same guy could easily be on the dole

Widdershins

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Even at the height of the boom and we had import foreign workers were had unemployment. We'll always have toss pots.
Why isn't it illegal to knowingly employ a tradesman in your home who isn't changing you vat? Same guy could easily be on the dole

Did we have to or did we do it because they were cheap?

OP while I agree that we should do something, on the other hand, I firmly believe it's the more vulnerable people, not the workshy scammers, who'd be targeted. I just don't trust that it would be implemented properly.

Sleeper12

Widdershins wrote:

Did we have to or did we do it because they were cheap?

No. We had to bring in foreign workers and they weren't cheaper labour. When we get down to 4% unemployment we are left with the unemployable for the most part.

osarusan

No it shouldn't.

Will I Am Not

eviltwin wrote: »

They already are arent they? Anyone long term unemployed has to link in with employment services or have their dole cut. But if you don't want to work its easy enough to make yourself unemployable.

Well it must be extremely simple to fob them off because I've never heard of anyone having their dole cut because of it.

tomhenryford

There are plenty of people who are made 'sign on' who are self-employed.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

What needs to be done is better tracking of individual welfare cases. For example, each month when signing on, the welfare recipient would be asked for evidence in printed form that they are actively seeking employment. This way, it would become increasingly obvious who is abusing the system and is genuinely doing their best to get off it.

Then, after a year, for example, those with clearly no intention of coming off it would have it cut by increments of €10 for every month thereafter that they are on it. For those who are trying their level best to get work, they could organize interviews to fast track their employment. By the way, this DOES NOT mean free labor as was the case with Job Bridge.

There are the exceptions such as those with disabilities who need as much time as they want to get a job. I understand that there are those who might give up job hunting when they have been unsuccessful for a year or more as it is soul destroying. This is where organized and perhaps guided interviews could be carried out.

I don't agree with a fixed or hard deadline as is being suggested by the OP.

siblers

Spider Web wrote: »

They explained themselves very well but due to slavishness to an ideology, the above inane, bland comment was the best you could do.
It's very simple - saying there are people who exploit the system and believe they are entitled to numerous things for nothing or next to nothing (which there most certainly are - I used to think it wasn't true but now I know for a fact it is) is not an attack on people who actually need state support. And it is not a claim that life is brilliant as a benefits scrounger - it's just saying they're exploiting the system and shouldn't be, that's all.
In the topsy turvy world of the far left though, the full-time worker who criticises the exploitative/self entitled/irresponsible... is worse than the exploitative/self entitled/irresponsible.

He couldn't be bothered getting off his hole but it's the government's responsibility? That's populism gone up to 11.

The Government should be responsible for getting people off the dole and into work, why can't they make it a requirement that he needs to do community work or do a part-time course instead of just letting him sit idle collecting the dole each week? It has gotten to the stage now where he is almost un-employable so he is going to spend the next 30 odd years on the dole and with a medical card. Surely it's in the Government's best interest to get people like him off the dole and into work?

Wabbit Ears

We need to introduce perpetual war. Havent worked in 6 months? Into the military you go. If you're not made into mincemeat with 50kal rounds youll come out with a trade if you do the free courses on offer between mindless slaughter or possibly just get horrific PTSD. Either way its a win win.

Not fond of war? perhaps you've recently discovered you're a pacifist? well you know what, yer man Niall melon got it right, build gaffs. Not working? There's social houses to be built. A openback pickup truck will swing by your designated meeting spot every morning at 6. Be there and get your stamp or starve. Peasants.

Benjamin Buttons

Next time someone tries to say that boards.ie is stuffed to the gunnels with lefties, snowflakes and social justice warriors.......show them the result of this poll. No one even remotely left of centre would vote 'yes' to the question posed at the top of this thread. There's still time of course as the vote is ongoing, but I won't hold my breath.

professore

I think everyone should get a basic income - say €100 / week, and benefits like healthcare, working or not. This will make working actually pay.

Wanderer78

Listening to Richard Wolffs radio show, economic update, over the weekend, they have found millions of Americans who were made unemployed over the last few years have given up looking for work. They believe this is partly due to the fact, many of these people had poor working conditions and pay previously!

Sam Kade

Any doleys gone milking cows yet? Most of the dole money ends up back in the government coffers either way, it's not as if they are stashing it under a mattress.

end of the road

siblers wrote: »

The Government should be responsible for getting people off the dole and into work, why can't they make it a requirement that he needs to do community work or do a part-time course instead of just letting him sit idle collecting the dole each week? It has gotten to the stage now where he is almost un-employable so he is going to spend the next 30 odd years on the dole and with a medical card. Surely it's in the Government's best interest to get people like him off the dole and into work?

the question is who is going to give him work.
those involved in community work want people who want to be there, who will do the work, and who are passionate about the work.
employers want people who will do the work and who want to be there. the type of person we are talking about does not and never will fit those descriptions.

Geuze

Basal wrote: »

Should the government set a date, say January 1st 2020 to permanently cut off the dole to anyone who has been on it for more than 5 years ?

Abolish long-term JSA, but instead offer all those on LT JSA paid work for 20-30 hrs per week.

seamus

So you cut off someone who's on the dole five years.

One day, no money.

OK. Now what?

retro:electro

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There are generally 3 types of person on the dole.

1. The genuine case making an effort to get work, generally has kids, mortgage, etc. and needs a job faster than you can imagine.

2. The genuine case who accepts it as a lifestyle as they can't be assed making an effort anymore because they've been worn down by the system and job/interview refusals, but will be on courses, schemes etc to try and get by.

3. The scumbag variety who views it as a lifestyle and the type you don't want to associate with.


If you cut off the dole, you incentivise all of the above to get an income. Unfortunately, I would imagine that the amount of hardship caused on people in brackets 1 and 2 above, would be overshadowed by the amount of burglaries, theft, pick-pocketing, etc. that bracket 3 would turn to, to increase their income.

Dublin, for example, would quickly become an extremely unsafe place, as people would know that only those with money would be out for the night, and therefore would aggressively target such people.


If you can't see that happening a mile off, you need your eyes checked. Cutting the dole is a great idea in theory. Not so much in practice.

I'd say it's even more complex than that. There are also claimants out there who have applied and been rejected for disability/carers allowance etc. Sometimes these people fall just below the level required to obtain these allowances, so what do they do when their application has been rejected? There are people out there who are genuine carers but have been refused carers allowance. They can't go out to work as they can't leave the person they are caring for. There are also people medically unfit for work but fall beneath the standard required to avail disability allowance. These people have no other option but to continue on job seekers allowance as they have been refused the payment they should actually be on. That's why I'd never assume off the bat and box off someone who has been on the dole for years. You never know the circumstances behind it and why.

Lollipops23

Look, I've had to use social welfare to survive (back in 09 when I'd graduated and there were zero jobs).

I then took a crappy job in a bookies to get myself off the dole after 6 months. It didn't pay much more than welfare, but I needed to be working.

I have sympathy for people who've fallen on hard times; it happens to almost everyone at some point. But I have no patience for people who use it as a lifestyle choice. I am lucky enough to work in a decent job now, but I pay high taxes. I don't mind paying them, especially if they were pumped into the health or housing sectors. I'm happy to pay then! Just don't ask me to pay for Jacinta's fags.

Wanderer78

seamus wrote:

OK. Now what?

Armed robbery seems to be lucrative!

Captain Obvious

The problem is that some people are simply not employable and while they may be scum bags they hardly deserve to die homeless and hungry. The dole should start at a much higher rate. People turning eighteen or who have just been made unemployed should get double what the dole is now. But it should go down every few months they remain unemployed. If they are still unemployed after five years then shift them onto that credit card system.

Although I still think a universale income would be better all round.

Stonedpilot

Spider Web wrote: »

Because you've proof of course that the people in question are unemployed (however you know they're likely not).

What was that about irony?

Nope not signing on, have done in the past.Not my place to judge nor is it anyone else's buddy.
Frankly take what you can get for nothing, hey TD's etc aren't shy about loading up on expenses so if Joe Soap can get €188 or whatever it is now work away. It's staggering to me people can be so resentful of such a meagre amount of money.
Anyway I personally am convinced though that those on this with thousands of posts are probably signing on. Like I said people who are busy and with life's don't bother with this. It's all self indulgent opinion and bickering. No one with a relevant life would bother with the self indulgent narcissism and behaviour on this. Yes I know I am part of it.

The irony part is people on the dole bashing the dole. Thought that would be obvious. Obviously not. :cool:

Viscount Aggro

There should no rewards for failure. I could not take money from another man, for doing nothing.
Listen, the carers allowance is the biggest conjob going. I know a guy who gets it, spends most of the day down the pub.
Jobseekers? I know a few people who are laughing their ass off - they choose not to work. I dont them seeking a job.
When I was out of work a few years back, I spent 14 hours a day either looking for jobs, or researching jobs, or meeting contacts with a view to getting a job.
Disability? I know a person who gets this benefit, because shes an alcoholic - her Facebook page is an endless parade of lunches our, coffee here, art galleries, and other social events.

Wanderer78

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

There should no rewards for failure. I could not take money from another man, for doing nothing.
Listen, the carers allowance is the biggest conjob going. I know a guy who gets it, spends most of the day down the pub.
Jobseekers? I know a few people who are laughing their ass off - they choose not to work. I dont them seeking a job.
When I was out of work a few years back, I spent 14 hours a day either looking for jobs, or researching jobs, or meeting contacts with a view to getting a job.
Disability? I know a person who gets this benefit, because shes an alcoholic - her Facebook page is an endless parade of lunches our, coffee here, art galleries, and other social events.

maybe we should be doing something to help her with her mental health issues and subsequent addiction problems!

Stonedpilot

Wanderer78 wrote: »

maybe we should be doing something to help her with her mental health issues and subsequent addiction problems!

Disability for being an alcoholic?. I doubt it. How would you know anyway?. She personally told you?.

I have very strong doubts someone be passed for disability due to alcoholism. Met some people fit as fiddles running lucrative companies whom are alcoholics.

Viscount Aggro

No, I have tried. Shes done the Egon Ronay of rehab centres.
You cant help someone who does not want to get better.

We complain about doleheads - the bigger problem is the old age pension, age being moved out to 68, and people having to sign on from age 65, to get JB / JA.
The whole thing is a giant Ponzi scheme.

ELM327

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I don't think you can cut people off welfare completely. However, after a number of years on the dole people should be doing community work or something to contribute back to society.

Maybe after five years, make them join the army and indulge in peacekeeping efforts in Iraq?

How about after 5 years we kill them and use them as spare parts for others.