Should date be set to cut off long-term dole wasters ?"

Viscount Aggro

Yes, its classed as a chronic illness - therefore you would get disability benefit.

Spider Web

siblers wrote: »

The Government should be responsible for getting people off the dole and into work, why can't they make it a requirement that he needs to do community work or do a part-time course instead of just letting him sit idle collecting the dole each week? It has gotten to the stage now where he is almost un-employable so he is going to spend the next 30 odd years on the dole and with a medical card. Surely it's in the Government's best interest to get people like him off the dole and into work?

There are requirements aren't there? And if not, there should be I agree (I don't agree the dole should be just cut off - that's as inane a thing to say as "Well give up work and go on it if it's so great") but it's up to the individual to take responsibility and look for work and courses themselves too. Saying "The goverment didn't make me do it" is the ultimate in needing babying. They're an able-bodied, able-minded adult ffs

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Nope not signing on, have done in the past.Not my place to judge nor is it anyone else's buddy.
Frankly take what you can get for nothing, hey TD's etc aren't shy about loading up on expenses so if Joe Soap can get €188 or whatever it is now work away. It's staggering to me people can be so resentful of such a meagre amount of money.
Anyway I personally am convinced though that those on this with thousands of posts are probably signing on. Like I said people who are busy and with life's don't bother with this. It's all self indulgent opinion and bickering. No one with a relevant life would bother with the self indulgent narcissism and behaviour on this. Yes I know I am part of it.

The irony part is people on the dole bashing the dole. Thought that would be obvious. Obviously not. :cool:

I know what you meant when you mentioned irony - you were referring to people whom you aren't even definite exist. It's exceptionally unlikely that those who criticise exploitation of the welfare system are on benefits themselves, or if they are, they're not abusing them. That's a bizarre leap, no matter how many posts they have. Look at their daily postcount rather than total.

I referred to you lacking awareness of irony when you bitched and moaned at people posting here... through the medium of posting here.

And you along with numerous others are still missing the point - it's not a condemnation of benefits (I am completely in favour of benefits - i prefer a society that offers them to one that doesn't). I support those who need benefits being on benefits. It's not about how much they're getting either.
The condemnation is towards those who exploit the system and expect others to pay for them, for no reason other than an inflated sense of entitlement. It's the same mindset as the greedy, exploitative business owner - me me me and feck everyone else.

mikeybrennan

Basal wrote: »

Should the government set a date, say January 1st 2020 to permanently cut off the dole to anyone who has been on it for more than 5 years ?

Cut the Mickey off posters starting crap threads

Stonedpilot

Spider Web wrote: »

There are requirements aren't there? And if not, there should be I agree (I don't agree the dole should be just cut off - that's as inane a thing to say as "Well give up work and go on it if it's so great") but it's up to the individual to take responsibility and look for work and courses themselves too. Saying "The goverment didn't make me do it" is the ultimate in needing babying. They're an able-bodied, able-minded adult ffs

I know what you meant when you mentioned irony - you were referring to people whom you aren't even definite exist. It's exceptionally unlikely that those who criticise exploitation of the welfare system are on benefits themselves, or if they are, they're not abusing them. That's a bizarre leap, no matter how many posts they have. Look at their daily postcount rather than total.

I referred to you lacking awareness of irony when you bitched and moaned at people posting here... through the medium of posting here.

And you along with numerous others are still missing the point - it's not a condemnation of benefits (I am completely in favour of benefits - i prefer a society that offers them to one that doesn't). I support those who need benefits being on benefits. It's not about how much they're getting either.
The condemnation is towards those who exploit the system and expect others to pay for them, for no reason other than an inflated sense of entitlement. It's the same mindset as the greedy, exploitative business owner - me me me and feck everyone else.

Until you find away to remove egos from people from them they are going to be me me me. Even this thread is all about me from the OP.

Look at my profound opinion!. Nothing wrong with that but it's ego!.

Everyone wants to reinforce their opinion, be right and get their own way. Ego wants to be right damn it!.

Even if they say they don't. Very very very very rarely meet someone who doesn't want these things and is selfless completely, maybe Jesus or someone is like that.

Such is life.

Wanderer78

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Disability for being an alcoholic?. I doubt it. How would you know anyway?. She personally told you?.

I have very strong doubts someone be passed for disability due to alcoholism. Met some people fit as fiddles running lucrative companies whom are alcoholics.

please correct me if im wrong, are you saying she is a known alcoholic? obviously i havent a clue who you're talking about.

now the debate is getting interesting;) should mental health issues and subsequent addiction problems be seen and treated as a disability? i personally think they should be.

some people with these issues do certainly seem to be 'fit as a fiddle', but are they? i to have worked with many people with complex issues including alcoholism, drug addiction and gambling problems.

the sad truth is, physical health issues and mental health issues are not on par, they are not treated as equals, particularly within our social systems including our health care systems.

retro:electro

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

There should no rewards for failure. I could not take money from another man, for doing nothing.
Listen, the carers allowance is the biggest conjob going. I know a guy who gets it, spends most of the day down the pub.
Jobseekers? I know a few people who are laughing their ass off - they choose not to work. I dont them seeking a job.
When I was out of work a few years back, I spent 14 hours a day either looking for jobs, or researching jobs, or meeting contacts with a view to getting a job.
Disability? I know a person who gets this benefit, because shes an alcoholic - her Facebook page is an endless parade of lunches our, coffee here, art galleries, and other social events.

I know people who turn up for work and spend more time on tea breaks and scratching their holes than doing actual work. You'll find wasters everywhere.

Spider Web

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Until you find away to remove egos from people from them they are going to be me me me. Even this thread is all about me from the OP.

Look at my profound opinion!. Nothing wrong with that but it's ego!.

Everyone wants to reinforce their opinion, be right and get their own way. Ego wants to be right damn it!.

Even if they say they don't. Very very very very rarely meet someone who doesn't want these things and is selfless completely, maybe Jesus or someone is like that.

Such is life.

Well yeah nobody can be one hundred per cent selfless (although some are close, and that's good enough in my opinion) but there is obviously a scale of selfishness. It's inaccurate to suggest we are all the same in that regard. We are obviously not. A ludicrously inflated sense of entitlement is not something everyone has.

Rjd2

Lollipops23 wrote: »

Look, I've had to use social welfare to survive (back in 09 when I'd graduated and there were zero jobs).

I then took a crappy job in a bookies to get myself off the dole after 6 months. It didn't pay much more than welfare, but I needed to be working.

I have sympathy for people who've fallen on hard times; it happens to almost everyone at some point. But I have no patience for people who use it as a lifestyle choice. I am lucky enough to work in a decent job now, but I pay high taxes. I don't mind paying them, especially if they were pumped into the health or housing sectors. I'm happy to pay then! Just don't ask me to pay for Jacinta's fags.

Somewhat similar. I was on the dole and got off it by doing a dull cleaning job and then moving up the ladder somewhat afterwards.

People may not like it, but there is lifetime dolers in the country and something needs to be done about it. Its unfair on those on the bottom of the work ladder who are working there arses off and ultimately not making that much more than those who can't be bothered to look for work.

The majority on the dole I believe don't want to be on it, but its naive at best if you think they are not some who are content to be lifetime dolers.

fg1406

my own extended family have one of these "career freeloaders" on board. He did the leaving in 2001 and hasn't worked since. Went to college to "be a musician" but thought he knew more than the teachers so he quit. Met a girl in his early 20s. Had a baby. He stayed at home for long enough so she could claim lone parents and get a RAS property. After she secured a house he moved in. They have since had 2 more kids and are now complaining of overcrowding in the house. Anyway he's been on jobseekers for years. They made him go on a CE scheme which he did for his term as required but as soon as it ended he went back on the dole and back to sitting in the house smoking weed and playing his guitar. He has refused all training courses etc as he doesn't drive and lives in a satellite town of Dublin and says he can't afford public transport.
This guy drives me mental. I believe in a socia contract whereby you give and the state helps you when you need it i.e. Ill health, disability etc. And genuine issues like redundancy and temporary unemployment. Not because of a life choice.
I spent time in Scandinavia in my early 20s and there, your dole is based on the stamps you've paid and is reduced, the longer you remain on it. I am paying my PRSI for the benefit for my own stamps and for the wider social insurance of the community which I genuinely don't mind. I do mind paying for the lifestyle of my cousin and his girlfriend and those like them. The issue is they grew up in homes like that and their kids are growing up seeing joblessness and living off welfare as an acceptable permanent way of life and it's very hard for those kids to break the cycle.

Sleeper12

Yes 144
no 74

Who says Boards isn't right wing??

greendom

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

Should this not be in the Politics forum ?

After 5 years TDs should have their wages cut !

ELM327

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Yes 144
no 74

Who says Boards isn't right wing??

It's not necessarilty right wing, as much as realism.

weldoninhio

siblers wrote: »

I don't for a second think people should be cut off from the dole (unless they are claiming while working) but I never really understood why the Irish government is so passive to people who are long term unemployed, I have a friend who is 32, he has been on the dole for around the last 6 or 7 years, I don't think he has applied for a single job in those years and hasn't done any night classes or courses except for a 4 week course on using Microsoft Word. The government has done nothing to help him get a new job or help him skill up.

I know you have the likes of Springboard which is all well and good but he obviously is happy out sitting on the dole and won't bother turning up for those courses, surely in cases like this, he should be required to attend classes or courses or be involved in community employment schemes, just seems mad to allow him sit on the dole for the rest of his life. I know in some cases, people will always be on the dole but this guy is quite intelligent, he just needs some guidance to get him back on trail which he isn't getting from Turas Nua or whatever they are called

I was on the dole myself for about 9 months when I lost my job and the goverment did **** all to help me get a new one, luckily I found one but for cases like my friend, I honestly don't ever see him not being on the dole

What do you think the role of government is??

ederkeh

I was never sure of one thing in relation to this.

How do you prove that you are looking for work?
Do you have to get a letter/email from every company you approach?

Sleeper12

ELM327 wrote: »

It's not necessarilty right wing, as much as realism.

Realism would recognize that not all but plenty of these "dole wasters" are men & women in their late 50s or 60s that will never be offered a job again because of their age
Right wing is intolerance, when you want to kick them off without looking at the full picture

retro:electro

ederkeh wrote: »

I was never sure of one thing in relation to this.

How do you prove that you are looking for work?
Do you have to get a letter/email from every company you approach?

Right now, if you're lucky enough not to be registered with Setac or Job Path, you don't have to produce anything. You go into your local SW office every month and sign on. It's an electronic tab where you click "I accept" to the declaration that you've been genuinely seeking work for the last 28 days. I did some work in my local office for a while and I've seen people just click it without even reading the declaration. It's just an automatic reflex at this stage. You don't have to prove you looked for work, just saying you are is enough.

If you're registered with Job Path however you'll be given an employment advisor and have to attend meetings maybe twice weekly. Your dole will be cut by about €50 if you reject a job offer. This system is flawed however as the advisors get paid on commission and get bonus' if they find you a job. So basically they just push you into getting whatever job suits them and screw your needs/wants/desires. Its a random lottery on who gets selected for these schemes. Once you're in you're in and you can't get out of it without your dole being cut.

Other than that, the DSP send out letters every few months to all individuals seeking work relating to job vacancies in their towns. I suspect many of these letters are just used as fire fuel, however. There is no penalty for ignoring the letters.

ELM327

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Realism would recognize that not all but plenty of these "dole wasters" are men & women in their late 50s or 60s that will never be offered a job again because of their age
Right wing is intolerance, when you want to kick them off without looking at the full picture

Proof?

weldoninhio

anna080 wrote: »

Right now, if you're lucky enough not to be registered with Setac or Job Path, you don't have to produce anything. You go into your local SW office every month and sign on. It's an electronic tab where you click "I accept" to the declaration that you've been genuinely seeking work for the last 28 days. I did some work in my local office for a while and I've seen people just click it without even reading the declaration. It's just an automatic reflex at this stage. You don't have to prove you looked for work, just saying you are is enough.

If you're registered with Job Path however you'll be given an employment advisor and have to attend meetings maybe twice weekly. Your dole will be cut by about €50 if you reject a job offer. This system is flawed however as the advisors get paid on commission and get bonus' if they find you a job. So basically they just push you into getting whatever job suits them and screw your needs/wants/desires. Its a random lottery on who gets selected for these schemes. Once you're in you're in and you can't get out of it without your dole being cut.

Other than that, the DSP send out letters every few months to all individuals seeking work relating to job vacancies in their towns. I suspect many of these letters are just used as fire fuel, however. There is no penalty for ignoring the letters.

They get you a job, in other words????

Viscount Aggro

Scientific research is now doubtful that alcoholism is a disease. Its more likely as a result of one's social conditions.

retro:electro

weldoninhio wrote: »

They get you a job, in other words????

They get you to write up a CV and detail all your interests and credentials, and effectively throw it in the bin and get you to take whatever job is going in the town- whether ir suits you or not. Sounds great in theory, but in practice it's not actually benefiting people or helping them upskill. You are also prevented from accessing further education like a part time course or even applying to college while you're with Job Path for the year.

Look, I'm all for people getting out there and working but pushing someone who has lost all confidence in themselves into a job that they've no interest in and aren't good at- well that sounds pretty soul destroying. The Gov are only interested in getting live register numbers down. Forcing people into jobs is their way of doing this.

Wanderer78

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

Scientific research is now doubtful that alcoholism is a disease. Its more likely as a result of one's social conditions.

'a disease' makes it sound more like something you catch! i have discussed this with mental health experts, its generally classed as an addiction problem as a result of complex problems such as mental health issues etc, but id be interested to know what you mean by 'one's social conditions'?

begbysback

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

Scientific research is now doubtful that alcoholism is a disease. Its more likely as a result of one's social conditions.

This should be interesting - link to research please?

btw - I don't think the scientific research is doubtful, maybe the person who wrote it?

suicide_circus

While there are dole bashes a plenty, this subject should be open for discussion without an immediate attempt to close down all debate with accusations of right wing begrudging dole bashers being bandied around. As I said earlier, plenty of socialist countries reduce dole payments over time without the sky falling in or anyone subjected to unimaginable hardship. Some people just don't want the subject raised full stop, which is just as idiotic as those who harp on about dole scroungers 24/7.

weldoninhio

anna080 wrote: »

They get you to write up a CV and detail all your interests and credentials, and effectively throw it in the bin and get you to take whatever job is going in the town- whether ir suits you or not. Sounds great in theory, but in practice it's not actually benefiting people or helping them upskill. You are also prevented from accessing further education like a part time course or even applying to college while you're with Job Path for the year.

Look, I'm all for people getting out there and working but pushing someone who has lost all confidence in themselves into a job that they've no interest in and aren't good at- well that sounds pretty soul destroying. The Gov are only interested in getting live register numbers down. Forcing people into jobs is their way of doing this.

Lots of people work jobs they dislike, are over-qualified for or feel is below them. That's life.

retro:electro

weldoninhio wrote: »

Lots of people work jobs they dislike, are over-qualified for or feel is below them. That's life.

It's not right to force someone into a job they're no good at/ have no interest in/ isn't within travelling distance, under the threat of a sanction. It's just not.

_Roz_

anna080 wrote: »

It's not right to force someone into a job they're no good at/ have no interest in/ isn't within travelling distance, under the threat of a sanction. It's just not.

I agree. There are a ton of jobs I couldn't do for a variety of reasons, and if I didn't have an anxious breakdown first I'd just be let go. What's the point in that?

retro:electro

_Roz_ wrote: »

I agree. There are a ton of jobs I couldn't do for a variety of reasons, and if I didn't have an anxious breakdown first I'd just be let go. What's the point in that?

And your confidence in working would be further eroded and you'd rely even more on the benefits system to help you out. It's a way of doing things but imo it's not the right way.

weldoninhio

anna080 wrote: »

It's not right to force someone into a job they're no good at/ have no interest in/ isn't within travelling distance, under the threat of a sanction. It's just not.

Much better to let them sit at home scratching. :rolleyes::rolleyes: No wonder the country is a mess.

duffman3833

anna080 wrote: »

It's not right to force someone into a job they're no good at/ have no interest in/ isn't within travelling distance, under the threat of a sanction. It's just not.

most of us had to start off with crappy part time job that we didn't like but it was a stepping stone to get a better one

greendom

begbysback wrote: »

This should be interesting - link to research please?

btw - I don't think the scientific research is doubtful, maybe the person who wrote it?

The research was carried out with rats in the early 70s. A rat was put in a cage with 2 bottles, water in one and a solution containing cocaine/heroin in the other.

Once the rat got the taste of the cocaine/heroin he couldn't leave that bottle alone and drank from it until it died.

They then had the same 2 bottles attachd to a cage but this time the cage was huge and contained lots of rats and plenty of tunnels wheels etc etc to keep them all entertained. The drug fuelled water was barely touched.

The drug for the first rat was replacing the social interactions it was missing.

Something similar happened following the Vietnam War. Thousands of troops returned to America from the far East and there was a widespread fear that they would bring back a huge heroin addiction problem as it was used by the Soldiers in combat over there.

But once they returned to their families and communities very few remained addicted to the drug.

Hence the theory that it is connected to social condition

retro:electro

duffman3833 wrote: »

most of us had to start off with crappy part time job that we didn't like but it was a stepping stone to get a better one

So if you were forced into a job with unreasonable hours and unattainable travel distance, that or get your dole cut you'd be happy enough with that would you?

duffman3833

anna080 wrote: »

So if you were forced into a job with unreasonable hours and unattainable travel distance, that or get your dole cut you'd be happy enough with that would you?

as you said its either that or get dole cut. Id rather take the job, can still look else where in mean time but if it helps you get paid and get you on the road to a better job, just have to tough it out for a bit, its not permanent. If your offered a job when on the dole it shouldn't be turned down.

DEFTLEFTHAND

osarusan wrote: »

Commie!!

At least the Commies had pretty much full employment.

Any able bodied person of sound mind not willing to do there bit got put on a train to the salt mines.:D

retro:electro

duffman3833 wrote: »

as you said its either that or get dole cut. Id rather take the job, can still look else where in mean time but if it helps you get paid and get you on the road to a better job, just have to tough it out for a bit, its not permanent. If your offered a job when on the dole it shouldn't be turned down.

What if it was nowhere near where you lived and required you to travel? If you didn't have a car and no public travel in your area? Like I said, it's a militant scheme. Take the job or your dole is cut. They don't care about the how's and the why's of you getting there. Like I said earlier I'm all for people getting out there and working, but these schemes can be soul destroying. I think it's a much better idea to have people produce evidence that they've been actively looking for employment when they sign on. It's a better incentive to get you to actually apply for jobs, and they'll be jobs you're interested in and aren't forced to do.

duffman3833

anna080 wrote: »

What if it was nowhere near where you lived and required you to travel? If you didn't have a car and no public travel in your area? Like I said, it's a militant scheme. Take the job or your dole is cut. They don't care about the how's and the why's of you getting there. Like I said earlier I'm all for people getting out there and working. But these schemes can be soul destroying.

I cant comment much more on how it works as i was never in that situation myself but im sure they guys that are sourcing the jobs for these people are aware of there home address and would not send them half way across the country for a job.

begbysback

greendom wrote: »

The research was carried out with rats in the early 70s. A rat was put in a cage with 2 bottles, water in one and a solution containing cocaine/heroin in the other.

Once the rat got the taste of the cocaine/heroin he couldn't leave that bottle alone and drank from it until it died.

They then had the same 2 bottles attachd to a cage but this time the cage was huge and contained lots of rats and plenty of tunnels wheels etc etc to keep them all entertained. The drug fuelled water was barely touched.

The drug for the first rat was replacing the social interactions it was missing.

Something similar happened following the Vietnam War. Thousands of troops returned to America from the far East and there was a widespread fear that they would bring back a huge heroin addiction problem as it was used by the Soldiers in combat over there.

But once they returned to their families and communities very few remained addicted to the drug.

Hence the theory that it is connected to social condition

In the rat experiment you forgot to mention that the rat was put into a cage with nothing but 2 bottles, absolutely nothing else - this can hardly be replicated in society except in such cases of extreme child abuse where parents lock up their children from the outside world and treat them like animals - in such cases this results in psychological damage caused by the isolation - same id imagine for the rat.

Addiction or alcoholism are a result of prolonged usage of alcohol / drugs, regardless of the cause, whether that's the smack addict from Ballymun or the alcoholic from foxrock - the cause may have, or have not led to the condition
, but alcoholism and addiction are conditions regardless of causation.

retro:electro

duffman3833 wrote: »

I cant comment much more on how it works as i was never in that situation myself but im sure they guys that are sourcing the jobs for these people are aware of there home address and would not send them half way across the country for a job.

Wrong. It has happened. And I get where you're coming from, for what it's worth. Surely any job is better than no job, right? But life isn't black and white. Oh and once you're in this scheme, if you manage to find a job of your own accord, they hassle you and your employer for months wanting progress updates and info on how you're doing. Private profit based companies have no business getting involved with social welfare.

duffman3833

If the job is doable, then they should go for it. It seems like the system is ran the same as insurance companies, zero foxes to give

Stonedpilot

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Disability for being an alcoholic?. I doubt it. How would you know anyway?. She personally told you?.

I have very strong doubts someone be passed for disability due to alcoholism. Met some people fit as fiddles running lucrative companies whom are alcoholics.

I've worked in housing for a few years, during the good times when our unemployment rate was near enough the theoretical minimum and the people on rent supplement etc were usually fairly long term on it, single parents, travellers, and people on disability.

The vast majority of the latter group had only a liquid disability. Irish solution to an Irish problem.

On another note, I was fairly cranky on this thread yesterday and appreciate arcade_tryers fair response to my posts, they were well argued and in a better humour I'd probably agree with a lot of it.

WoollyRedHat

jca wrote: »

Nah that wouldn't work the organs would be useless shur everyone on the dole is a can drinking druggie don't ya know.

Oh yeah sorry. We'll eat their organs then.

Spider Web

anna080 wrote: »

It's not right to force someone into a job they're no good at/ have no interest in/ isn't within travelling distance, under the threat of a sanction. It's just not.

_Roz_ wrote: »

I agree. There are a ton of jobs I couldn't do for a variety of reasons, and if I didn't have an anxious breakdown first I'd just be let go. What's the point in that?

I agree in relation to jobs that the person genuinely wouldn't be able for, and would cause them stress (wouldn't wish that on anyone - better off on the dole) but a job they are just not interested in but otherwise can do, and commute to easily? We've nearly all had to do that, to be fair.

It's a stepping stone - they don't have to stay there for very long.

YFlyer

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Oh yeah sorry. We'll eat their organs then.

Be like eating a city dwelling pigeon.

begbysback

YFlyer wrote: »

Be like eating a city dwelling pigeon.

Gickna?

dublinman1990

There are some posts in this thread that relate to the JobPath scheme. I am an early entrant into this scheme from Seetec. I was invited to this scheme from the DSP on the 10th of August. If I did not attend this invite; I would have had the dole payment reviewed or cut off by the DSP. You are invited onto this scheme if you are more than 2 years unemployed according to DSP records. I have attended appointments at Patrick Street in Dun Laoghaire whenever they are arranged with my employment adviser. I have attended sessions in how to apply for full-time jobs by creating my CV on the prejob website using a facility called a CV Builder.

There is another important point to mention when you are on JobPath. That point is if you signed on at your local social welfare office while applying for dole payments before; you will receive a letter in the post from Intreo to say that you are officially exempt from monthly signing for the time you are on JobPath. You still have to comply under the terms for JobPath to allow you to continue receiving your payment.

I wanted to highlight that point above as there have some posts in this thread that could describe seeing people signing on at their local dole office as a truer reflection of the numbers being on the dole. What I'm saying is that it's not like that at all under any circumstance. What I trying to describe to you is that the numbers signing on the dole (i.e. The Live Register) being reduced every month may or may not make a huge difference to employment figures here. People who are unemployed & exempt from signing on are still getting their weekly dole payments as normal without going to the dole office every month. They are people that could be on schemes like JobPath or Springboard to actually find full time work for themselves e.g. they are not lazing around on their backsides all day while being on the dole.

One thing that I have observed while being on JobPath is that people who are not actively seeking work are in this scheme as well. But I think their own time is probably there due to a decision that can't be reversed for them e.g. if they don't comply with this scheme then their own dole payments will be cut. It could be a good idea for them to break the cycle of being on welfare. But again it all comes down to personal responsibility to make it worth their while.

Anongeneric

weldoninhio wrote: »

Much better to let them sit at home scratching. :rolleyes::rolleyes: No wonder the country is a mess.

The country is a mess because it is still recovering from the monumental cock-up FF FG and the banking/developer industry caused by handling the economy like a bunch of hormonal teenagers set loose on the canals of Amsterdam.

At the time many political and economic commentators both in Ireland and abroad begged the public to

"Remember who did this to you, pretty soon they'll be telling you that it's the fault of the poor, the welfare sponges, the asylum seekers, the migrants stealing your jobs, and if you believe them than they'll do it to you again"
Bill Black former federal bank regulator.

The UK populace believed the more extreme elements of the Conservative Party and UKIP that ' It's Johnny foreigner wot done it' and voted for Brexit,
Check out personal debt levels in the UK today, they are set to go belly up next year and will do huge damage to us when they do.

And when it happens both ourselves and the conservatives over there will still be picking easy targets to blame.

Wheeliebin30

Anongeneric wrote: »

The country is a mess because it is still recovering from the monumental cock-up FF FG and the banking/developer industry caused by handling the economy like a bunch of hormonal teenagers set loose on the canals of Amsterdam.

At the time many political and economic commentators both in Ireland and abroad begged the public to

"Remember who did this to you, pretty soon they'll be telling you that it's the fault of the poor, the welfare sponges, the asylum seekers, the migrants stealing your jobs, and if you believe them than they'll do it to you again"
Bill Black former federal bank regulator.

The UK populace believed the more extreme elements of the Conservative Party and UKIP that ' It's Johnny foreigner wot done it' and voted for Brexit,
Check out personal debt levels in the UK today, they are set to go belly up next year and will do huge damage to us when they do.

And when it happens both ourselves and the conservatives over there will still be picking easy targets to blame.

FG?

You mean FF surely?

marcus001

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I have been on the dole for 20 years. I own 3 houses in Dublin, Get to take 15 holidays a year... wait 16 holidays a year actually. I get up around noon and do nothing all day.

But to all those who bash the dole the only thing you have to do to get the same is quit your jobs and sign up. Unless... the dole isn't what it is cracked up to be? But surely that cannot be the case because that would make dole-bashers a$sholes? :pac:

No one is arguing that people on the dole have better lives than those of us who work. They just have better lives than they deserve.

Anongeneric

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

FG?

You mean FF surely?

FF were obviously in government at the time, but FG follow the exact same economic policy.
You can watch Brian Lenihan's last budget to the dail, Kenny, Noonan and Bruton all take turns at standing up in the Dail and lambasting Lenihan and Biffo for

'not spending nearly enough on capital projects, this is a miserly mean budget'
(it's on Youtube, so feel free to check it out yourself)

when all reasonable commentators at the time were screaming from the rooftops that the economy was already way over heated and that they needed to try reducing stimulus not adding more.

FF and FG differ on which side of the civil war their granda was on, they differ on absolutely nothing else.

marcus001

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Next time you're driving a car on the road, or stepping onto public transport, make sure you allow any person who has paid more in taxes than yourself to proceed ahead of you; after all, they've paid in more than you, and should reap more of the benefits.

That argument is circular as can be seen. The fact is welfare recipients do pay in, and pay a higher proportion of their disposable income than a lot of higher tax earners, as most of their small income is disposable, and is spent within the country as soon as they receive it.

Their income isn't earned, so boo hoo if they have to pay a higher proportion in vat.

B.A._Baracus

marcus001 wrote: »

No one is arguing that people on the dole have better lives than those of us who work. They just have better lives than they deserve.

Ok then what do they deserve.