Should date be set to cut off long-term dole wasters ?"

4068ac1elhodqr

NIMAN wrote: »

surely thats wrong though?

If you work you'll pay tax as normal, doing nixers and avoiding tax would still be illegal.

In the future, cash will not exist. All payments or transactions will have an electronic breadcrumb trail. Yes, tax will still be paid, but not much for those, doing the odd days work in this future 'gig economy'.

Current 'Uber drivers' are a very good example, they may also work other 'gig' on days they're not driving much.

Dr Brown

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

If you look at the court reports in the papers you'll see the vast majority are already unemployed.

Yeah but most people on the dole are not criminals.

boardsuser1

Dr Brown wrote: »

Yeah but most people on the dole are not criminals.

I agree.

The ones who are have never worked, more than likely never will.

They see the dole and the taxpayer as a lifestyle choice to fund them.

I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush either, i was on the dole for 5 years just when the country went into recession.

Not to mention one of the neighbours giving out because i live in a council house and he owns his.

I'd swap anyday

4068ac1elhodqr

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

If you look at the court reports in the papers you'll see the vast majority are already unemployed.

Sorry but just seen you're a Truck Driver, automation may not be welcome news for your industry.

Ever considered re-training in something handy like a.i. remote bot interfacing using object orientated languages?

Anongeneric

Anongeneric wrote: »

I didn't suggest anything about getting a six pack, you did.

In the example you were only given positive information about these people and you invented a negative hypothetical about them.

I'm not having a go, and I'm not interested in getting into a slanging match,
I'm trying to highlight how certain sections of Irish society who may very open minded and reasonable in other things have a huge amount of unconscious bias which gets triggered as soon as they hear 'unemployed'.

This is the perfect example,(again, not having a go), this example contains only positive information about these people but you have introduced negative prejudice into the equation.

What often happens in these discussions is people get dragged into debating hypotheticals that are based on these preconceived biases

You asked would they be wasters if they didn't get the job.

I stated what would make them wasters, not getting the job wasn't key.

A negative hypothetical had to be created to make these folk wasters, not getting the job wouldn't make them wasters.

You used wasters in the question, you brought in the negative. Had to create the negative hypothetical to get the folks to be wasters.

Think about it. .

marcus001

Coraline Cuddly Lizard wrote: »

One of the merits of UBI is that everybody gets free money, but it means Jim or Joe who'd normally sit watching the TV box, would be able to go out and wash a few windows, cut some lawns and very importantly: without any fear of losing any entitlement due to the odd days paid work, here and there.

For the stockbrokers out there, they'll simply throw the extra bit into the yearly 'recreation' fund, champers and the like.

The downside is a possible impact on inflation.

But you won't lose money for the odd days paid work as it is. As long as it is the odd day.

boardsuser1

Coraline Cuddly Lizard wrote: »

Sorry but just seen you're a Truck Driver, automation may not be welcome news for your industry.

Ever considered re-training in something handy like a.i. remote bot interfacing using object orientated languages?

Oh i'm well ahead of you there

Social care is my next destination

Human Sausage

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Yeah let's kill all the poor people one step under you on the social ladder, then let the next step above you kill you and your kind cause you're not as rich as they are, ah social economic progression, capitalism 101.

I imagine half the gob****es here think A Modest Proposal was a how-to guide.

4068ac1elhodqr

marcus001 wrote: »

But you won't lose money for the odd days paid work as it is. As long as it is the odd day.

But some weeks they may get 5 days in a row, then maybe have to fill in loads of forms and other tax credits or allowances they'd all be up for review.

With UBI you get a fixed amount and that's it. Earn more that that fair enough, keep most of that also, no bother.

marcus001

Dr Brown wrote: »

Cutting people off the dole would just push them towards crime.

Only if there were no jobs available. I think if we had it such that when there's plenty of jobs available the dole is limited in terms if how long you can stay on and how much you can get, but then when there's a downturn you change it so that more people can access it for longer..

I think its madness that its just as easy to get the dole now as it was back in 2009.

boardsuser1

marcus001 wrote: »

Only if there were no jobs available. I think if we had it such that when there's plenty of jobs available the dole is limited in terms if how long you can stay on and how much you can get, but then when there's a downturn you change it so that more people can access it for longer..

I think its madness that its just as easy to get the dole now as it was back in 2009.

The hard part is getting on it, the easy bit is staying on it. :rolleyes:

Dr Brown

There is also of alot of Politicians who have never had a real job in their lives yet they earn massive salaries.

Just look at Biffo he is on a massive pension but has never contributed anything meaningful to Irish society.

marcus001

We should go back to the days when poor people weren't so fat.

Dr Brown

marcus001 wrote: »

Only if there were no jobs available. I think if we had it such that when there's plenty of jobs available the dole is limited in terms if how long you can stay on and how much you can get, but then when there's a downturn you change it so that more people can access it for longer..

I think its madness that its just as easy to get the dole now as it was back in 2009.

If someone is on the dole for over 5 years most employers would never give them an interview never mind a job.

marcus001

Dr Brown wrote: »

If someone is on the dole for over 5 years most employers would never give them an interview never mind a job.

Imagine the welfare state had given them a kick in the ass after 1 year. Without this kick in the ass more people slip into these bad patterns.

marcus001

Dr Brown wrote: »

There is also of alot of Politicians who have never had a real job in their lives yet they earn massive salaries.

Just look at Biffo he is on a massive pension but has never contributed anything meaningful to Irish society.

Politician is a real job.

boardsuser1

marcus001 wrote: »

Imagine the welfare state had given them a kick in the ass after 1 year. Without this kick in the ass more people slip into these bad patterns.

Apparently the Polish kick people off the dole after a few months, whether it's true or not i do not know.

Dr Brown

marcus001 wrote: »

Politician is a real job.

lol.

Anongeneric

Augeo wrote: »

You asked would they be wasters if they didn't get the job.

I stated what would make them wasters, not getting the job wasn't key.

A negative hypothetical had to be created to make these folk wasters, not getting the job wouldn't make them wasters.

You used wasters in the question, you brought in the negative. Had to create the negative hypothetical to get the folks to be wasters.

Think about it. .

The reason I mention 'wasters' is because it has been bandied about so much in this thread, and you know that very well.

I did not ask 'In what situation can we start to call these people wasters?'
I asked on the basis of the given information and possible outcomes, (not being selected or being selected and then not being able to do the job through physical limitations), would these people be considered wasters?

I am genuinely trying to have a conversation with you here on a real world example and have stated a number of times that I'm not interested in getting into a slanging match.
You've tried the passive aggressive 'Do you understand?' and 'Think about it' and am not biting.
I'm happy to continue the conversation if you are, but I won't be if we are going to get into some senseless argument.

Allinall

Dr Brown wrote: »

There is also of alot of Politicians who have never had a real job in their lives yet they earn massive salaries.

Just look at Biffo he is on a massive pension but has never contributed anything meaningful to Irish society.

Is being a qualified practicing solicitor not a real job?

Dr Brown

Allinall wrote: »

Is being a qualified practicing solicitor not a real job?

He only ever "worked" for his father before he went into politics.

Allinall

Dr Brown wrote: »

He only ever worked for his father before he went into politics.

Not an answer to the question asked.

Is someone with qualifications working in the family business not doing a real job?

Anongeneric

Anongeneric wrote: »

The reason I mention 'wasters' is because it has been bandied about so much in this thread, and you know that very well.

I did not ask 'In what situation can we start to call these people wasters?'
I asked on the basis of the given information and possible outcomes, (not being selected or being selected and then not being able to do the job through physical limitations), would these people be considered wasters?

I am genuinely trying to have a conversation with you here on a real world example and have stated a number of times that I'm not interested in getting into a slanging match.
You've tried the passive aggressive 'Do you understand?' and 'Think about it' and am not biting.
I'm happy to continue the conversation if you are, but I won't be if we are going to get into some senseless argument.

I answered your question.
I'm not overly interested in a conversation.

stateofflux

Cutting off long Term dole claimers is highly unlikely...once you give something its hard to take it back...its even more unlikely now given the housing crisis from a govt.PR perspective

marcus001

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Apparently the Polish kick people off the dole after a few months, whether it's true or not i do not know.

The Americans do it after 6 months I think. I think it would be bad to do it in a downturn, it would be kicking people while they're down, but when unemployment is low and there's not much excuse for being out of work entirely I think it would give a lot of people a much needed impetus to go find work.

Anongeneric

Augeo wrote: »

I answered your question.
I'm not overly interested in a conversation.

You didn't answer the question, you answered a question that you invented.

But I think you're right chief, we may as well leave it there.

Dr Brown

Allinall wrote: »

Not an answer to the question asked.

Is someone with qualifications working in the family business not doing a real job?

It may or may not be but it is not real world experience to be handed a job by your family.

Anongeneric

Anongeneric wrote: »

...

But I think you're right chief, we may as well leave it there.

Oh my, passive aggressive..... you brute.

Allinall

Dr Brown wrote: »

It may or may not be but it is not real world experience to be handed a job by your family.

A big dilution of your argument right there.

Let's explore it a bit further.

He is a qualified solicitor. That wasn't handed to him.

He presumably did chargeable work for the practice, unless you think he just made tea and ran errands.

That to me is a real job.

Also, I would be quite interested in why you think being a politician is not a real job.

How about Clr. Brian Murphy?
Does he have a real job?

Dr Brown

Allinall wrote: »

Also, I would be quite interested in why you think being a politician is not a real job.

A politician can decide not to do any work for up to 5 years and still get paid.

I was reading about an Irish MEP who has done no work what soever since being re-elected.

In the real world if you don't show up for work you get sacked.

marcus001

Dr Brown wrote: »

A politician can decide not to do any work for up to 5 years and still get paid.

So can most civil servants.

I joke. They can in theory get away with that but in practice most of them work pretty hard, especially ministers or anyone with ambitions of becoming one.

Benjamin Buttons

Dr Brown wrote: »

A politician can decide not to do any work for up to 5 years and still get paid.

I was reading about an Irish MEP who has done no work what soever since being re-elected.

In the real world if you don't show up for work you get sacked.

It wasn't Brian Hayes by any chance, he jumped ship to hop on that EU gravy train, big time. He'll probably come back to be Fine Gael director of elections as he did last time.
Did anyone miss him in Brussels while he was back here I wonder.....did they fúck.
And did anyone in Dublin South/West even know he was gone.....very few.
Happy days eh.

RobbieTheRobber

Allinall wrote: »

Yes.

It asked a question which you avoided.

Boo hoo hoo.

I'll answer again. Unemployment is not a trait!!!

So no unemployment cannot be inherited as a trait by a child from its parents.

Dr Brown

The only time politicians do any real "work" is at election time.

RobbieTheRobber

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Apparently the Polish kick people off the dole after a few months, whether it's true or not i do not know.

But sure post it on the internet anyway.

marcus001

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Boo hoo hoo.

I'll answer again. Unemployment is not a trait!!!

So no unemployment cannot be inherited as a trait by a child from its parents.

Laziness, lack of drive and motivation, lack of intelligence etc. These are inheritable traits.

RobbieTheRobber

marcus001 wrote: »

Laziness, lack of drive and motivation, lack of intelligence etc. These are inheritable traits.

Oh intelligence is a trait now is it?

You must not have learnt that one from your parents eh.

Vela

Not everyone who's on the dole is a "waster". Nor does everyone on the dole for a long period of time want to be on the dole at all. There are numerous personal circumstances preventing them from working. For example, some people are actually unable to work/only able to work in a limited capacity due to illness but that illness isn't covered or hasn't been approved for disability payments. Others may have been out of the workforce for so long that they simply haven't been able to get back in.

It's not that easy to stay on the dole and it's not the walk in the park you think it is. These people get called in for regular meetings/reviews and there are mandatory courses that they have to participate in if they want to continue receiving payments.

Personally, I'd rather see those people have a dole payment every week than be sleeping on the streets because we "cut them off". There are enough people in that position already. Just go for a walk through Dublin City Centre if you need an example.

It wouldn't kill some people to drop the cynicism for a bit and have a little bit of empathy.

marcus001

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Oh intelligence is a trait now is it?

You must not have learnt that one from your parents eh.

High or low intelligence is a trait.

Oh look, its another you "disagree with me politically so you must be stupid" post.

Oranage2

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Allinall wrote: »

Yes.

It asked a question which you avoided.

Boo hoo hoo.

I'll answer again. Unemployment is not a trait!!!

So no unemployment cannot be inherited as a trait by a child from its parents.

Being long term unemployment and not seeking work is a learnt behavior that can and does be passed down to kids along with other learnt behaviors such as smoking, obesity etc.

People on the dole for either 5 years should be given the option reduced payment or some kind of community service like taking care of the elderly, or cleaning for 15-20 hours a week.

In don't know why there's such a stigma attached to government forced jobs that benefit a community. If done right it could be really beneficial to the individual.

Wheeliebin30

Vela wrote: »

Not everyone who's on the dole is a "waster". Nor does everyone on the dole for a long period of time want to be on the dole at all. There are numerous personal circumstances preventing them from working. For example, some people are actually unable to work/only able to work in a limited capacity due to illness but that illness isn't covered or hasn't been approved for disability payments. Others may have been out of the workforce for so long that they simply haven't been able to get back in.

It's not that easy to stay on the dole and it's not the walk in the park you think it is. These people get called in for regular meetings/reviews and there are mandatory courses that they have to participate in if they want to continue receiving payments.

Personally, I'd rather see those people have a dole payment every week than be sleeping on the streets because we "cut them off". There are enough people in that position already. Just go for a walk through Dublin City Centre if you need an example.

It wouldn't kill some people to drop the cynicism for a bit and have a little bit of empathy.

Let's me get this straight.

You think all the people sleeping rough in Dublin city centre are there because the goverment cut their dole payments and cut them off?

Neon_Lights

marcus001 wrote: »

Yep and Conor McGregor was on the dole before he hit it big, but I think a few billion a year is a lot to spend so that once a generation a future star can work at their craft. Cost/benefit etc.

Will we see any benefit from his gucci mink or flashy cars other than a wry smile? Unlikely, all his taxes will be used for is to plug holes in our fiscal deficits ran up by incompetent governments.

lawred2

Littlehorny wrote: »

Always thought the dole should be cut by 10% for every year your on it, so by the time your 5 years on it your only getting 50%. The dole should be made as unattractive as possible.

You think it's attractive?

Benjamin Buttons

marcus001 wrote: »

Laziness, lack of drive and motivation, lack of intelligence etc. These are inheritable traits.

So you've settled one of the oldest arguments in the history of medicine, psychology, sociology and criminology, the nature v nurture puzzle. Something the greatest minds in the world have been wrestling with for more years than anyone can say, and little old you makes a definitive pronouncement on a dole bashing thread on boards.ie....bloody marvelous!

RobbieTheRobber

Oranage2 wrote: »

Being long term unemployment and not seeking work is a learnt behavior that can and does be passed down to kids along with other learnt behaviors such as smoking, obesity etc.

People on the dole for either 5 years should be given the option reduced payment or some kind of community service like taking care of the elderly, or cleaning for 15-20 hours a week.

In don't know why there's such a stigma attached to government forced jobs that benefit a community. If done right it could be really beneficial to the individual.

Ok finally something to actually discuss instead of unemployment is a trait nonsense.

So i think then from your above statement we can agree that financial deprivation can lead to lower education level attainments and lower levels of social inclusion?

Widdershins

Grayson wrote: »

There's the slut shaming.

My friend for example had a child, had no partner, lives in a bedroom of a shared house with the kid and does that best she can. All whilst on the dole. That's taking fcuking responsability.

People here seem to think women like that are freewheeling layabouts. The thread is about cutting off the dole for people and single mothers have been mentioned. Seriously, what kind of sick fcuk thinks that's a good idea. I'll tell you.It's the kind who want to punish these women.Because apparently being a single parent isn't enough.

My friend is stronger and braver than I think I ever could be. She's doing something momentous with very little support.

Another of my friends has 4 children, she's widowed of the father of the eldest 3 and estranged from the father of the youngest. Even people who should know better, mutual friends, have passed remark on her. What's she supposed to do, stay in an abusive relationship for the sake of 'respectability'? She can't resurrect the dead, either.

That comment you quoted was I think a response to me where I was completely taken out of context because if you mention the enjoyment of sex that seems to be a huge trigger for some posters. I never once said I don't practise safe sex, I never specified my preferred method of contraceptives and I was clearly talking about a stable relationship, not ''running around having sex with..' because I ''like it so much'' (what's wrong with that? ) or ''shagging randomers''. not that it would be anyone's business if I did that. It just says an awful lot about what some men think about women and sex, imo.

It's sad that no women would call the poster out for that but would if you mention latex allergies & condoms, or suggest that women only need to make one mistake in a lifetime of caution.

markodaly

Vela wrote: »

For example, some people are actually unable to work/only able to work in a limited capacity due to illness but that illness isn't covered or hasn't been approved for disability payments. .

If someone is on the dole long term and cannot 'work' due to illness they either apply for disability or the state deem them fit enough to work. If the state deems them fit enough to work then they should be out there looking for a job.

Ireland is one of the few countries that will give you the dole and not decrease it bit by bit over the long term. We are an outlier in Europe. So stating that the dole for long termers be cut is not a big issue, as that is what they do in other countries like Germany.

Oranage2

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Oranage2 wrote: »

Being long term unemployment and not seeking work is a learnt behavior that can and does be passed down to kids along with other learnt behaviors such as smoking, obesity etc.

People on the dole for either 5 years should be given the option reduced payment or some kind of community service like taking care of the elderly, or cleaning for 15-20 hours a week.

In don't know why there's such a stigma attached to government forced jobs that benefit a community. If done right it could be really beneficial to the individual.

Ok finally something to actually discuss instead of unemployment is a trait nonsense.

So i think then from your above statement we can agree that financial deprivation can lead to lower education level attainments and lower levels of social inclusion?

Yes, that's a fact.

Vela

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Let's me get this straight.

You think all the people sleeping rough in Dublin city centre are there because the goverment cut their dole payments and cut them off?

No.

Vela

markodaly wrote: »

If someone is on the dole long term and cannot 'work' due to illness they either apply for disability or the state deem them fit enough to work. If the state deems them fit enough to work then they should be out there looking for a job.

Ireland is one of the few countries that will give you the dole and not decrease it bit by bit over the long term. We are an outlier in Europe. So stating that the dole for long termers be cut is not a big issue, as that is what they do in other countries like Germany.

It is 100% not that simple. The whole process of applying for and getting disability allowance here is severely flawed. Many of those people have been deemed unfit to work by medical professionals, and somehow the "state" decides otherwise.

If you really think it's that black and white, there's little point in me even trying to discuss it with you.