Coastguard Hospital Transfers Cut

Storm 10

This is madness lives will be lost as it also includes inter hospital transfers in Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/number-of-missions-by-coast-guard-helicopter-crews-to-be-reduced-1.3208414

Bazzy

Yeah it seems a bit crazy to me alright.

I can see where the background thinking is coming from but the Air Corps should be able to cover this and should be ramped up to be able to.

Every industry in most of the world is cutting back and sub contracting to someone to take the risk and cut the costs.

I fear this is only going to get worse

Irish Steve

While it's not mentioned in the article, I would be suspicious that another factor in this decision is the ongoing requirement for (expensive) inspections every 10 flying hours that have to be carried out on the S92's, if there is an alternative service provider available, there will be significant pressure to reduce the number of flying hours being used on the S92 fleet.

I've seen nothing to indicate that there has been a change in the inspection regime, it could be some time before that requirement is removed, as it's probably going to require a redesign and certification project to solve the underlying issue that led to the original introduction.

Bazzy

Irish Steve wrote: »

While it's not mentioned in the article, I would be suspicious that another factor in this decision is the ongoing requirement for (expensive) inspections every 10 flying hours that have to be carried out on the S92's, if there is an alternative service provider available, there will be significant pressure to reduce the number of flying hours being used on the S92 fleet.

I've seen nothing to indicate that there has been a change in the inspection regime, it could be some time before that requirement is removed, as it's probably going to require a redesign and certification project to solve the underlying issue that led to the original introduction.

It is all boiling down to money I would imagine the Air Corps should have people available for this.

There is most certainly something going on behind the scenes prompting this change.

my suspicion is that an insurance company is questioning the flights taken after the unfortunate R116 incident.

Less time in the air less risk.

Storm 10

One of the biggest problems is that a lot of the hospital transfers take place at night, Galway has a specialist unit for heart operations open 24/7, a lot of transfers are for heart problems and take place from Letterkenny, Sligo and Castlebar, in the case of Letterkenny its a 45 minute flight by the Coastguard to Galway, now if this goes ahead you are looking at 4 hours at least and there goes the golden hour for patients. its madness

Negative_G

Bazzy wrote: »

I can see where the background thinking is coming from but the Air Corps should be able to cover this and should be ramped up to be able to.

The Air Corps is critically short of aircraft, manpower (both pilots and technicians) and has been the same it seems for the last decade.

The issues in the AC have been extremely well documented over the last 12-18 months particularly and refocused again after the R116 crash.

An Irish solution to an Irish problem. A token effort.

Bazzy

Negative_G wrote: »

The Air Corps is critically short of aircraft, manpower (both pilots and technicians) and has been the same it seems for the last decade.

The issues in the AC have been extremely well documented over the last 12-18 months particularly and refocused again after the R116 crash.

An Irish solution to an Irish problem. A token effort.

I fully accept your point and the government call a spade a spade are treating this like a business and are looking to get the best return

I live in very rural ireland and to be honest i dread to think what would happen if anything that required serious outside help was to happen

I come from Dublin so the difference is huge in contrast

Unfortunately a lot of the decision makers in this instance reside in Dublin so I feel are neglecting the bigger picture

Storm 10

Air Corps 112 just departed UHG these guys provide a brilliant service but it's confined to daylight hours , I'm sure if they were tasked to operate at night time they are more than capable

Negative_G

Bazzy wrote: »

I fully accept your point and the government call a spade a spade are treating this like a business and are looking to get the best return

I live in very rural ireland and to be honest i dread to think what would happen if anything that required serious outside help was to happen

I come from Dublin so the difference is huge in contrast

Unfortunately a lot of the decision makers in this instance reside in Dublin so I feel are neglecting the bigger picture

You cannot put a price on the cost of saving someone. Under any circumstance.

I would happily support an increase in taxation to support a fully functioning 24/7 HEMS service in either, whether it was provided by the Air Corps or private.

faoiarvok

The article makes no mention of money but an IAA requirement on providers of HEMS (likely based on a European regulation, though I'm not sure of that)

Edit: COMMISSION REGULATION (EC) No 8/2008 Subpart Q OPS 1.1105

Bazzy

Negative_G wrote: »

You cannot put a price on the cost of saving someone. Under any circumstance.

I would happily support an increase in taxation to support a fully functioning 24/7 HEMS service in either, whether it was provided by the Air Corps or private.

Just to clarify I would do the same and I am sure 99.9999% of the population would.

The service currently being offered is excellent and the people doing it dont get enough credit for what they do

notharrypotter

Negative_G wrote: »

I would happily support an increase in taxation to support a fully functioning 24/7 HEMS service in either, whether it was provided by the Air Corps or private.

Just being curious but what level of increase would you be happy with?

Service provision in Ireland no matter what it is, or how worthy we personally we believe it is, does not exist in isolation.

Negative_G

notharrypotter wrote: »

Just being curious but what level of increase would you be happy with?

Service provision in Ireland no matter what it is, or how worthy we personally we believe it is, does not exist in isolation.

I can't put a figure on it but it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to assume that given the current CHC contract, a similar contract for 2 HEMS bases over a 10 year period would cost around €250 million, or €25m per year (€12.5m per base).

Given a rounded down population of 4.5 million it would cost in the region of €5-6 per year per person. If you were to have something based on 3/4 helicopters then double the figure. I am quite sure that something the size of the AW139 has lower operating costs than an S92. I dont think the S92 is suited to a HEMS role either due to its weight, size and rotorwash.

In short, the cost of a couple of pints or a takeaway would cover the cost for such a service. In any event, not very much, and I doubt most people would miss it.

€500-600 million is given away in overseas aid every single year without anyone batting an eyelid. Despite the fact that some of the recipient nations have their own space programmes.

There is numerous ways to skin a cat and multiple solutions. The current EAS works fine for the government because they can cut it at any stage, works for the HSE because they dont have any direct investment and works for the AC because it gives them another important role to focus on. Whether the AC should be doing it at all is another question but the most important thing to remember is the current set up is the cheapest and can be gotten rid of in the morning with the stroke of a pen and without too much red tape. The same can't be said for a private operated service.

Podge_irl

Negative_G wrote: »

You cannot put a price on the cost of saving someone. Under any circumstance.

I would happily support an increase in taxation to support a fully functioning 24/7 HEMS service in either, whether it was provided by the Air Corps or private.

There is no indication in that article that is being done for cost-related reasons. That aside, the above simply isn't true. There is a price put on saving people's lives all the time - cost of medicine, resourcing etc etc. I certainly wouldn't argue against funding the service being provided in this case and I would hope that is not the reason and a means will be found for it to continue.

Riva10

The moneys have to come from somewhere to continue to prop up Irish Water.

L1011

Riva10 wrote: »

The moneys have to come from somewhere to continue to prop up Irish Water.

Politics forum is elsewhere. The exchequer is currently running a surplus and spending increases/tax cuts are expected in the budget, so glib little stabs like this are untrue anyway

Riva10

L1011 wrote: »

Politics forum is elsewhere. The exchequer is currently running a surplus and spending increases/tax cuts are expected in the budget, so glib little stabs like this are untrue anyway

I am so sorry that I have offended your beliefs. What I wrote is exactly what I believe and it was not meant as "a glib little stab" at anyone. As this is a political decision maybe the topic would be best served if it was moved to the Politics Forum. As for the promised tax cuts etc surely this is also for the politics forum.

L1011

Riva10 wrote: »

I am so sorry that I have offended your beliefs. What I wrote is exactly what I believe and it was not meant as "a glib little stab" at anyone. As this is a political decision maybe the topic would be best served if it was moved to the Politics Forum. As for the promised tax cuts etc surely this is also for the politics forum.

If you wish to discuss the political side of it, or your perception thereof, create a new thread in Politics.

January

There's nothing else to say other than lives are going to be lost over this decision. Yes, the Air Corp should have to provide cover but it can't employ people who haven't got the relevant qualifications and they are thin on the ground. So until then, the Irish government need to provide an alternative, otherwise, they are going to have blood on their hands.

Negative_G

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is no indication in that article that is being done for cost-related reasons. That aside, the above simply isn't true. There is a price put on saving people's lives all the time - cost of medicine, resourcing etc etc. I certainly wouldn't argue against funding the service being provided in this case and I would hope that is not the reason and a means will be found for it to continue.

Of course there is a cost. My point is that money or funding should never be the difference between life and death for anyone.

I would suspect that if your loved one was gravely ill the last excuse you would want to hear is that there is no money or funding to save there life.

From what I have heard is that the issue in this instance isn't to do with money or funding. The issue is to do with SAR crew duty periods versus HEMS crew duty periods and the issue of mixing between the two with the same crews.

ED E

Two questions. Firstly, the S92s are not certified for urban/elevated landing pads so have to transfer from GAA fields and parks via ambulance. Could the AWs overcome this limitation?

Secondly, the UK operate many PHEM helos as charities, would the irish public cough up for it?

gctest50

ED E wrote: »

..........


Secondly, the UK operate many PHEM helos as charities, would the irish public cough up for it?

CHC were paid to provide it - so they need more crew :

It is understood that CHC Ireland has considered hiring non-SAR crew to fly HEMS missions from Dublin or Waterford to get around the flight hours ruling.

and a spare helicopter or two

However, this could restrict use of a helicopter primarily required for 24-hour duty.

it'd be a much better idea to get rid of CHC and gear-up the airforce to provide the service - plenty pilots and spare aircraft

faoiarvok

gctest50 wrote: »

CHC were paid to provide it

CHC have a Memorandum of Understanding with the HSE where they will provide up to 12 HEMS missions a month for free, after which they will bill the HSE for additional missions. This role is considered secondary to the helicopters' primary SAR role.

"Charged at €3,000 an hour, plus monthly and other standing charges, or else a flat rate of €4,500 per hour flown with no fixed charges."

Source: EAS Working Group Report (worth a read)

Storm 10

gctest50 wrote: »

CHC were paid to provide it - so they need more crew :




and a spare helicopter or two




it'd be a much better idea to get rid of CHC and gear-up the airforce to provide the service - plenty pilots and spare aircraft

So do you think for one minute we could afford this, 6 S92 helicopters 8 S92 crews one on one off at each base 24/7 plus the maintenance not a hope in hell of it happening even the UK has taken SAR of their Defence Forces

gctest50

We did pay 500 million euro for the CHC


50 million euro a year

The aircorps were supposed to get a fleet of S92′s but the then minister for defence (Michael Smith) had an epic fail in the procurement due to a backhander for Team Aerlingus getting a sneaky contract with sikorsky maintenance.


Eurocopter kicked up a fuss as did the other companies in the running as they werent aware that they could have offered a backhander like this.

apparently




http://bit.ly/1hmFXDQ

L1011

TEAM were gone by 1998 or so - the S92 contract was pulled around the 02 GE as far as I remember.

gctest50

Sikorsky offered sweetners to FLS (f*** long scratches ) (former Team Aer Lingus ) apparently

When Eurocopter then threatened to sue, the ideas of contract with Sikorsky was dropped and it went to private

FF shenanigans at it's finest

faoiarvok

gctest50 wrote: »

50 million a year

We usually pay more than €50m each year, due to the extra cost of outside of contract HEMS work done by CHC for IRCG

Psychlops

gctest50 wrote: »

it'd be a much better idea to get rid of CHC and gear-up the airforce to provide the service - plenty pilots and spare aircraft

With what exactly? 6xAW139 & 2xEC135, 1 AW139 of which is on EAS Duty, how many in for overhauls? IAC used to have an AW139 at Bal on 24/7/365 duty for Air Ambo, that was withdrawn due to no crews, crews especially experienced crews are leaving in droves, there are not plenty of pilots & spare aircraft, the IAC is at a major disadvantage.

Do not for one second think I am slagging the IAC, I do not blame them at all, I blame the penny pinchers. The IAC is a small & professional Air Corps but it is extremely limited.

afatbollix

Could start a charity like the new Northen Ireland helicopter. It could help with the costs.