Why do so many people insist that teachers get long paid holidays

Bananaleaf

Autochange wrote: »

Im getting the inkling that the counter arguments offered are really a cover for the fact that teachers simply dont want or feel that they should have to go in during their holidays to make up the lost days. How far is that from the truth?

You're dead right I don't feel I should have to go in during my holidays to make up the lost days.

Why should I?

I set work for all of my students via an online portal we have. One student out of 180 students submitted work.

You are the very same person that was advocating taking your kids out of school during term time - would you want me to rework those days too?

wirelessdude01

maryishere wrote:

If I had 4 months holidays a year, I would not mind a little bit of flexibility on 2 of the days I worked, in an exceptional circumstance, due to a "once in 50 year storm". I would not dream of letting my employer or "the customer" down, and I would work the 2 days sometime if I got them off.

Come join us so. CAO form is waiting to be filled in as a mature student or a conversion post-grad course. Come on, the pay isn't great but the holidays!!! Sure you know all about them.......

Noveight

Two forty minute classes can easily be caught up on between now and the Halloween break. No need to make that time up over holidays. To be genuinely concerned over the loss of that much time is pedantry. Jeepers, this thread has taken quite the meander.

Noveight

endacl wrote: »

Don't

Even

Bother

Like a dog with a bone! :P

endacl

maryishere wrote: »

Here is a source for you, I have always provided sources unlike the numerous "teachers" on this board.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/04/06/term-time-holidays-supreme-court-rule-parents-can-legally-take/

Now, as someone else pointed out and asked...the children's education is the most important thing here isn't it? Do you not think those lost days should be made up as its the pupils who lose out?

Thanks for the source. As it happens, I fully agree with that one.

Yes. They should be made up as outlined in the circular. I've also explained my personal position. You probably ignored that though. Didn't fit.

Y'see, Mary, we don't all flatout disagree with you. We're not a homogeneous group. We're not 'de teechurrz'. The problem here is you still not engaging with posters as individuals. You cherrypick facts to support your opinions, and ignore perfectly rational and coherent points that contradict you. Even some that don't contradict you, but simply offer clarifying nuance.

Now, I'll hold my hands up. I admit haven't taken you entirely seriously. But you don't invite that sort of consideration. Has that thought crossed your mind at all over the last while? That you come across as a little bit ridiculous?

Autochange

Just to clarify I am not having a pop at teachers and their holiday entitlements per year. Irish teachers days off per year are about average compared to European countries. If people wanted the same benefits they should have chosen the teaching profession themselves.

I was just trying to possibly find out what will be done to make up the days lost during the storm. One one hand Ophelia obviously wasn't the teachers fault so why should it eat into your holiday periods. But the time should be made up along the way in my opinion. I thought some here would be aware of what is going to happen. Maybe this isn't the right thread for this anyway.

However answers along the lines of we cant go against the boss man etc are childish and unhelpful.

endacl

maryishere wrote: »

If I had 4 months holidays a year, I would not mind a little bit of flexibility on 2 of the days I worked, in an exceptional circumstance, due to a "once in 50 year storm". I would not dream of letting my employer or "the customer" down, and I would work the 2 days sometime if I got them off.

So would many of us. You really only respond to the posts that suit you.

Do you have some kind of personality disorder?

Autochange

Bananaleaf wrote: »

You're dead right I don't feel I should have to go in during my holidays to make up the lost days.

Why should I?

I set work for all of my students via an online portal we have. One student out of 180 students submitted work.

You are the very same person that was advocating taking your kids out of school during term time - would you want me to rework those days too?

Finally. That didnt hurt did it.

I didnt advocate anything. I tried to offer a theory as to why some might

maryishere

endacl wrote: »

Y'see, Mary, we don't all flatout disagree with you.

I never said you did. I suspect the attitude of most teachers too is that they do not want to put the kids education first and to recoup those lost two days in the interest of the pupils education.

endacl

Autochange wrote: »

Just to clarify I am not having a pop at teachers and their holiday entitlements per year. Irish teachers days off per year are about average compared to European countries. If people wanted the same benefits they should have chosen the teaching profession themselves.

I was just trying to possibly find out what will be done to make up the days lost during the storm. One one hand Ophelia obviously wasn't the teachers fault so why should it eat into your holiday periods. But the time should be made up along the way in my opinion. I thought some here would be aware of what is going to happen. Maybe this isn't the right thread for this anyway.

However answers along the lines of we cant go against the boss man etc are childish and unhelpful.

They're not really. It's the Department's decision. That is a fact. If the minister decides to take the days out of the summer holiday, that's what will happen. If he decides not to, that's what will happen. That's what's meant by 'we can't go against the boss man'.

I can't, as an individual teacher, decide to do that myself. The school wouldn't be open, for one thing. There would be questions of insurance. There'd be organizing and time around all the after term cleaning and maintenance etc. And, of course, there'd be the rounding up of the classes, and convincing them to come in....

Autochange

endacl wrote: »

They're not really. It's the Department's decision. That is a fact. If the minister decides to take the days out of the summer holiday, that's what will happen. If he decides not to, that's what will happen. That's what's meant by 'we can't go against the boss man'.

I can't, as an individual teacher, decide to do that myself. The school wouldn't be open, for one thing. There would be questions of insurance. There'd be organizing and time around all the after term cleaning and maintenance etc. And, of course, there'd be the rounding up of the classes, and convincing them to come in....

I was curious if "the booss man" had made a decision. You guys are front line. I wondered if you knew. It is obvious to me know that you dont and if the decision is made to teach the days during the summer period then some of you will be unhappy with it.

Is that a fair assessment?

endacl

maryishere wrote: »

I never said you did. I suspect the attitude of most teachers too is that they do not want to put the kids education first and to recoup those lost two days in the interest of the pupils education.

Ah, g'wan with ye. :rolleyes:

Fact: Teachers are people. Doing a job. Not educational saints. That is all.

You appear to be in some Dead Poets Society fantasy.

endacl

Autochange wrote: »

I was curious if "the booss man" had made a decision. You guys are front line. I wondered if you knew. It is obvious to me know that you dont and if the decision is made to teach the days during the summer period then some of you will be unhappy with it.

Is that a fair assessment?

Yes. I don't see what the problem with that assessment could be though. Think about it.

"Deadly. Off for the summer next Friday. Oh. Bugger. I've to go in till Tuesday. *grumble grumble*"

Same as any job. I've had to go in for extra time in jobs I've had in the past. Paid extra for it too. I still grumbled. Because I'm human. No big deal

maryishere

endacl wrote: »

Ah, g'wan with ye. :rolleyes:

Fact: Teachers are people. Doing a job. Not educational saints.

So a Saint, according to you, is someone who would wish to work the full amount of days per year (167 at secondary and 183 at primary) instead of taking 2 extra days off and doing 165 or 181 days. God help ye. Shame on ye.

Autochange

endacl wrote: »

Ah, g'wan with ye. :rolleyes:

Fact: Teachers are people. Doing a job. Not educational saints. That is all.

You appear to be in some Dead Poets Society fantasy.

I am sorry to hear that is your attitude to your profession. I hope you dont carry it into your classroom.

endacl

maryishere wrote: »

So a Saint, according to you, is someone who would wish to work the full amount of days per year (167 at secondary and 183 at primary) instead of taking 2 extra days off and doing 165 or 181 days. God help ye. Shame on ye.

That's not what I meant at all, Mary. But I suspect you're well aware of that.

Shame on me? Jaysus...

Before I bother to engage with you again, would you mind explaining to me, in your own words, my position on the question as stated clearly not more than a few pages ago?

You're not a dog with a bone at all. A dog would have more sense. Even a stupid one. A really really stupid one...

Noveight

maryishere wrote: »

I never said you did. I suspect the attitude of most teachers too is that they do not want to put the kids education first and to recoup those lost two days in the interest of the pupils education.

Anything that follows "I suspect" is about as relevant as the snow that fell last year.

maryishere

endacl wrote: »

That's not what I meant at all, Mary.
.

Actually it is what you meant, your atiiude has shone through. I would not want you teaching my kids or grandkids ever.

endacl wrote: »

Before I bother to engage with you again, would you mind explaining to me, in your own words, my position on the question as stated clearly not more than a few pages ago?

Which question was that? I have answered dozens.

Autochange

Noveight wrote: »

Anything that follows "I suspect" is about as relevant as the snow that fell last year.

You can peep your head up and jump in every now and then but its past your bed time so its probably best you log off and get some sleep.

maryishere

Noveight wrote: »

Anything that follows "I suspect" is about as relevant as the snow that fell last year.

I have no statistical proof, nor could anyone have. I only have the vibes from teachers I meet and from this forum.

endacl

Autochange wrote: »

I am sorry to hear that is your attitude to your profession. I hope you dont carry it into your classroom.

Feck. You have us up on a pedestal too...

As it happens, I'm very dedicated to my work. I'm only distracting myself from it with this nonsense. I got home this evening around 8. Bit of dinner. I've been at the laptop since, designing a course to fit a Plc module that's been handed to me earlier in the week. I'd normally prepare that over the summer, but I start with the group on Monday. Didn't hear about it till the day before yesterday. It'll probably take the weekend too with prep. I kinda have to build this from the ground up to suit a group of students who are really going to struggle, no matter what we put in front of them. The next few days prep will carry us through till Halloween. Luckily, I've a week off then. I can really get stuck into it! Over the course of that module I'll likely give up three or four evenings per term to attend presentations and showcases of the students' work. I won't be paid for that. I just mention it by way of illustration.

I'll have well covered the time I missed during the storm, seeing as I wasn't timetabled in at all. Over the next few weeks, I'll be doing at least 25% more work than I'm paid for. Over the course of the year I'll be doing a lot more. Then I'll be doing the Croke Park/Haddington Rd hours as agreed by the union. Willingly, and without complaining.

So, in response to your post, and with all due respect, go do something anglo-saxon to yourself.

Noveight

Autochange wrote: »

You can peep your head up and jump in every now and then but its past your bed time so its probably best you log off and get some sleep.

What a completely pointless post.

maryishere wrote: »

I have no statistical proof, nor could anyone have. I only have the vibes from teachers I meet and from this forum.

Vibes offer a very poor grounding for further discussion. I suspect one thing, you suspect another and the thread is essentially dead unless someone comes up with numbers or a decent source at least.

endacl

maryishere wrote: »

Actually it is what you meant, your atiiude has shone through. I would not want you teaching my kids or grandkids ever.

If they take after their mother or grandmother, they'd be unteachable...

endacl

Noveight wrote: »

I suspect one thing, you suspect another and the thread is essentially dead unless someone comes up with numbers or a decent source at least.

Don't ask for sources!!!

:eek::eek::eek:

maryishere

Noveight wrote: »

I suspect one thing, you suspect another

Not so. Everyone suspects the teachers will not want to work back the two days off they got earlier this week.

Noveight

endacl wrote: »

Don't ask for sources!!!

:eek::eek::eek:

If I get shown a reputable source that proves most teachers do not want to put kids education first I'll happily eat my hat, brim and all

Noveight

maryishere wrote: »

Not so. Everyone suspects the teachers will not want to work back the two days off they got earlier this week.

Why would they when doing so would be completely unnecessary? The contents of the missed 80 minutes worth of teaching could easily be worked in to lessons between now and the midterm break.

Haul students in for 2 days of classes over a holiday/break period and see how attentive and engaged they'd be.

maryishere

The fact is holidays come before kids education in most teachers books. Some teachers even read magazines in class and doss.

endacl

maryishere wrote: »

Not so. Everyone suspects the teachers will not want to work back the two days off they got earlier this week.

Mary. I’m going to type this really slowly. Just for you. Let me know if I’m going too fast.

Given the choice, and I’m going to take a chance here and use the word ‘suspect’.... Bear with me now. Given the choice between going in to work for two days on annual leave for no extra pay, and not going in to work for two days on annual leave for no extra pay, what do you suspect anybody, in any job, profession, or industry might choose? I suspect that your suspicion may match the suspicion of anybody presented with that question.

And ‘everyone’? Everyone suspects? I can demonstrate quite easily the fallacy of your assertion. Her we go: I don’t. Not only that, but I’ve already not only stated, but stated to you directly in response to one of your nonsense posts, that I would be willing to. Not happy to, but I’d more than willingly do it. If it is directed. I’d grumble privately, as anybody would, but I’d be there.

Any chance of you accepting the above?

endacl

maryishere wrote: »

The fact is holidays come before kids education in most teachers books. Some teachers even read magazines in class and doss.

Seriously? You’re just taking the piss now, aren’t you?

Noveight

endacl wrote: »

Seriously? You’re just taking the piss now, aren’t you?

It was fun while it lasted!

/thread

evolving_doors

maryishere wrote: »

Actually the 550,000 Irish adults who are at or below level 1 on a five-point literacy scale, and the 750,000 Irish adults who at or below level 1 for numeracy are aged from school leavers up to age 65. The statistics themselves are modern and the latest available. .

nice try, that's what I said too!
The stats were taken recently but the data includes students taught back in the 50's. Actually do we know if any of those adults back then left school early... or barely attended.
But carry on with your faux outrage.

maryishere wrote: »

In 1911 illiteracy was not as prevalent in Ireland, according to the statistics then. Fact. And its not a hatefest. It is a lovefest towards the 750,000 Irish adults who have difficulties, and how to help them. For a start, how about working the last few weeks of June and / or the first few weeks of July? Yes
, You. I am sure some of the 750,000 would appreciate it.

Sooo your going to try and round up 750,000 adults (many of whom might be at work) and send them back to school.
And in between the teaching the teachers would be painting the walls.
A project which would make even Stalin blush.

evolving_doors

Autochange wrote: »

I was curious if "the booss man" had made a decision. You guys are front line. I wondered if you knew. It is obvious to me know that you dont and if the decision is made to teach the days during the summer period then some of you will be unhappy with it.

Is that a fair assessment?

In the event of unforeseen school closures make up days are done in place of other activities. School sports day, summer exams, scoop tours etc.

evolving_doors

maryishere wrote: »

The fact is holidays come before kids education in most teachers books. Some teachers even read magazines in class and doss.

Have you a source for that?
Maybe you're in a giant cc tv room watching us all.

evolving_doors

Ah come on maryishere... whatever about the bold teachers... but the nanny too ?


/childminder-fired-after-refusing-to-take-kids-shoe-shopping-during-storm-ophelia-
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/childminder-fired-after-refusing-to-take-kids-shoe-shopping-during-storm-ophelia-36243130.html

:pac:

nice_guy80

maybe all those adults have poor literacy as they were meant to be in school before secondary education became free? and so they just didn't go?

anyway, another day off for me today.
course day!
oh, but won't I think of the children? Oh I will, I will....

maryishere

endacl wrote: »

Mary. I’m going to type this really slowly. Just for you. Let me know if I’m going too fast.

You remind me of a teacher who acts / speaks that in the classroom to someone, and bullies them, and belittles them. No kidding.

endacl wrote: »

Any chance of you accepting the above?

I would accept that you would work the 2 days you got off later in the year. There are some reasonable teachers. However I suspect most teachers will not want to work back the two days off they got earlier this week.

evolving_doors wrote: »

Have you a source for that?

You forget that all people who grew up in Ireland have experience of the school system, and most adults in Ireland now have kids / grandkids / nieces / nephews / whatever who attend schools.
There was a thread here on boards very recently titled " who was the worst teacher you ever had". 11 pages of interesting reading.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

endacl wrote: »

maryishere wrote: »

Our Results / standards are slipping but if a teacher says it'll do, then shure it'll do. Says it all.

Who said that?

Mary did. And if Mary makes it up, it must be true.

maryishere

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Mary did. And if Mary makes it up, it must be true.

Actually it was endacel. What a disappointing teacher. As someone else said to endacel "m sorry to hear that is your attitude to your profession. I hope you dont carry it into your classroom".

endacl

maryishere wrote: »

Actually it was endacel. What a disappointing teacher. As someone else said to endacel "m sorry to hear that is your attitude to your profession. I hope you dont carry it into your classroom".

Context, Mary.

Don't forget. The context here is me not taking you seriously. I 'suspect' that's the case generally in this thread, but can only speak for myself.

This dissspointing teacher was up till 2am last night preparing courses, by the way.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

markodaly wrote: »

Actions speaks louder than words.

So basically your argument is that anyone who takes a different view from yours is obviously a partisan teacher. Well, that saves you a lot of work and trouble.

Perhaps you'd look through my posting history. I think it would be quite clear from that, that I'm not a teacher.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Autochange wrote: »

Not all at the same time country wide! And many of those parents who do cant afford to take their children on holiday during peak time.

If that is your argument for teaching staff not having to make up both lost days it is a weak one

Sometimes I can't afford a foreign holiday. So I just don't have one.

Billy86

The posters who are arguing that a lost day should be made up, I assume they mean this for all professions including their own jobs if they were not in work on Monday, correct?

givyjoe

Billy86 wrote: »

The posters who are arguing that a lost day should be made up, I assume they mean this for all professions including their own jobs if they were not in work on Monday, correct?

What about Tuesday?

endacl

givyjoe wrote: »

What about Tuesday?

Yeah, I’m free. I can do it on Tuesday.

Billy86

givyjoe wrote: »

Billy86 wrote: »

The posters who are arguing that a lost day should be made up, I assume they mean this for all professions including their own jobs if they were not in work on Monday, correct?

What about Tuesday?

The same for that, I mean it's safe to assume all of those calling for teachers to be put in work for two extra days have already volunteered themselves to do an extra day to make up for it, or two if their employer also instructed them not to go in on the Tuesday also, right?

endacl

Billy86 wrote: »

The same for that, I mean it's safe to assume all of those calling for teachers to be put in work for two extra days have already volunteered themselves to do an extra day to make up for it, or two if their employer also instructed them not to go in on the Tuesday also, right?

Very hard to throw the old ‘won’t somebody think of the children’ bit if there’s no children involved though.

On the other hand, perhaps the bauld Mary is on a thread somewhere exhorting baristas to think of the yummy mummies. Feckin’ baristas. They’re all the same. I suspect.

givyjoe

Billy86 wrote: »

The same for that, I mean it's safe to assume all of those calling for teachers to be put in work for two extra days have already volunteered themselves to do an extra day to make up for it, or two if their employer also instructed them not to go in on the Tuesday also, right?

But no one else's employers did that. I can't see why teachers, particularly here on this thread, would have such a problem with making up for the missed days.. can you?

The difference with private, commercial employers is that they have simply lost out on some revenue for the day, directly or indirectly. Students have missed out on parts of their curriculum. Is it unreasonable for that to be made up by days which would have been taken up by a mid term etc?

Another difference with private employers is that it should be fairly easy to facilitate the taking back of days lost due to the storm. Teachers and students had two days off they were supposed to be in school, so again whats the issue with making up for the time lost?

endacl

Jaysus. She’s after the statisticians too....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057799391

endacl

givyjoe wrote: »

Students have missed out on parts of their curriculum.

I can assure you they haven’t. Very easy to cover. Source: any teacher. Ask one.

That’s kinda the crux of the shyte over the last few pages. It’s really not about the time off. It’s about covering the material. I couldn’t begin to describe what a non issue that would be, at any level of teaching.

A thought experiment: Think back to your own school days. Did you ever miss a day? Did any teacher ever take a sick day? As a result of either scenario, describe a missing bit of your education.