Why do so many people insist that teachers get long paid holidays

Ash.J.Williams

amcalester wrote: »

I've often heard that and wondered if they can claim the dole for the summer months.

Can they? And if not, why not?

The op actually covers that

jmayo

eigrod wrote: »

How on earth you thought I was having a jibe at the GAA, I do not know. I was simply giving an example from the sport that I am closest to.

I don't know anything about rugby coaching so why would I use that?

Fair enough.
A lot of people have a go about under hand payments, etc.

Martina1991

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Pretty much everyone I know who became a teacher did so because they didn't know what to do when they finished their arts degree and they were attracted by the long holidays.

A good few girls I went to school with became teachers. The ones who had a genuine interest/passion for teaching went into primary teaching, a yes a few did Arts and are now secondary teachers with a pretty soft gig.

Become a teacher and get lots of time off, wow, it's no secret. Nor are the wages.

super_furry

Speaking from the experience of a family member, it's far from a bed of roses. She's a chemistry and science teacher with a Bachelors in Chemistry, and spent the last three years scrambling from contract to contract with zero job security, having to sign on each summer before a rush of interviews each August and hoping to land something for the next year. This after spending two-and-a-half years teaching in a private school in England who until last summer were still begging her to come back.

She could go into the private sector and immediately double her wages with her qualifications but has a genuine love of teaching. Thankfully this year she got a second year contract with the same body she was with last year so will finally get some security and a CID but anyone painting teaching as a handy number really doesn't know what they're talking about.

Arsemageddon

super_furry wrote: »

And they're as big as four cats and have a retractable leg so they can leap up at you better and they lights up at night and they've got four ears, two are for listening and the other two are kind of back up ears and their claws are as big as cups and for some reason they've got a tremendous fear of stamps, They've got magnets on their tails, so if you're made of metal, they can attach itself to you and instead of a head, they've got four arses"

Sorry, I haven't a clue what any of that is supposed to mean.

Tayschren

Benjamin Buttons wrote: »

The average salary of a primary school teacher in Ireland is: €30,184 per year.
The average salary of a TD in Ireland is : €87,258 per year.

I wonder which of the above is overpaid?

Haha,I read somewhere that there are at least 1500 teachers in Ireland earning in excess of €85,000 with 100s earning over 100,000 in secondary schools alone

New entrants make the figure you quoted

I generally wouldn't usually find myself debating for fvcking TDs but your argument is idiotic even at its most basis fallacy when comparing salary.

Arsemageddon

super_furry wrote: »

Speaking from the experience of a family member, it's far from a bed of roses. She's a chemistry and science teacher with a Bachelors in Chemistry, and spent the last three years scrambling from contract to contract with zero job security, having to sign on each summer before a rush of interviews each August and hoping to land something for the next year. This after spending two-and-a-half years teaching in a private school in England who until last summer were still begging her to come back.

She could go into the private sector and immediately double her wages with her qualifications but has a genuine love of teaching. Thankfully this year she got a second year contract with the same body she was with last year so will finally get some security and a CID but anyone painting teaching as a handy number really doesn't know what they're talking about.

If your relation is on temporary contracts and having to sign on during the summer then clearly she is not getting "long paid holidays". Therefore, the relevance of your post to the subject matter of this thread is moot.

endacl

endacl wrote: »

Not ANY teacher is on full hours.

Better

oppenheimer1

Long summer holidays from school are a relic of times past. The reason for them was way back in the day the rural population put little value on children's education and more on their ability to be necessary labour on farms. The state felt that if children didn't have Summers off to help with bringing home the harvest parents wouldn't let their children go to school at all. The summer holidays were the compromise.

As times have changed the long summer holidays are more of a hindrance to parents now than the help they used to be. Parents have to forgo work or have increased childcare costs over the summer now because of the long holidays.

I've always maintained that the schools should remain open during the summer. They should be there to facilitate extra classes for children that need extra help. They should be there for noon curricular activities like sport and they should be there to mind children while parents go out to earn the taxes that pay the teachers wages.

super_furry

Arsemageddon wrote: »

If your relation is on temporary contracts and having to sign on during the summer then clearly she is not getting "long paid holidays". Therefore, the relevance of your post to the subject matter of this thread is moot.

She's a teacher. One not getting long paid holidays. The topic title is "Why do so many people insist that teachers get long paid holidays", and very much relevant in this case.

AlanG

Benjamin Buttons wrote: »

The average salary of a primary school teacher in Ireland is: €30,184 per year.
The average salary of a TD in Ireland is : €87,258 per year.

I wonder which of the above is overpaid?

http://www.into.ie/pay/PayScales/

You are way off - the starting wage is above that.

Benjamin Buttons

Benjamin Buttons wrote: »

The average salary of a primary school teacher in Ireland is: €30,184 per year.
The average salary of a TD in Ireland is : €87,258 per year.

I wonder which of the above is overpaid?

jmayo wrote: »

You will find most TDs are actually teachers.
BTW both can be highly ineffectual, but at least you have some chance of getting rid of the latter.

Also the latter work much longer hours and have to put up with more people bugging them.

Now 'j' let's have a little look at what you've just spouted and see where we can correct you shall we.
Pay attention now.

Firstly, the word 'most' means 'greatest in amount or degree', therefore 7.9% of TDs just does not tally with your statement: ''You will find most TDs are actually teachers'', oh no jmayo, you won't find that at all.
I've included The Irish Times piece from which I've deduced the 7.9% figure, study it when you get home 'J', it might seem a bit boring now but at least when you're finished you'll know what you're talking about in future, won't that be great!
Go on then I'll tell you now, put your hand down.
According to the Irish Times piece referenced above, 20 of the TDs in the 32nd Dáil come from the education sector, though even that group isn't comprised of teachers exclusively, but we'll allow it for the purposes of this argument as I have to get home soon and can't be staying back late every day in order to correct enthusiastic but erroneous posters. So 20 teachers as a percentage of 158 TDs is?
C'mon 'J'...spit it out, that's right 7.9%.
Does that mean 'most' jmayo,....well.....no indeed as you shake your head.

Secondly, you would have us believe that TDs have more people 'bugging' them than teachers, are you out of your tiny mind jmayo?
We're talking children here...kids...hundreds of them, crying, fighting, bullying, vomiting, shítting, threatening, falling, bawling...and bugging, oh yes bugging 'jmayo', more than any politician a teacher is 'bugged' something rotten from the moment he or she steps through the school gates to the moment he or she gets home to correct your homework.
So please 'jmayo' no more guff and be gone with ya you little rapscallion!

www.irishtimes.com/election-2016/shape-of-the-dail#/

Benjamin Buttons

AlanG wrote: »

http://www.into.ie/pay/PayScales/

You are way off - the starting wage is above that.

Not all are full time, as was stated earlier in the thread.
Pay attention and apply yourself!

oppenheimer1

Weepsie wrote: »

^^ Teachers pay taxes too. @oppenheimer

If it's so well paid, and the holidays are so good, then why isn't everyone here doing it? Is it too easy or something, not challenging enough. I know I'd rather not have to spend my time telling 20+ kids or teens to be quiet constantly.

There should be easier ways of getting rid of bad teachers, but that's about it.

Teachers are not paying taxes and paying for childcare during the summer.

Most people wouldn't like to work, that's not the point. The point is the teachers holidays are a historical artifact that should have long been consigned to the bin.

If an ordinary office worker was on the same hourly rate as a graduate teacher they'd be earning in the region of €60k per annum.

Scorpion Sting

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Long summer holidays from school are a relic of times past. The reason for them was way back in the day the rural population put little value on children's education and more on their ability to be necessary labour on farms. The state felt that if children didn't have Summers off to help with bringing home the harvest parents wouldn't let their children go to school at all. The summer holidays were the compromise.

As times have changed the long summer holidays are more of a hindrance to parents now than the help they used to be. Parents have to forgo work or have increased childcare costs over the summer now because of the long holidays.

I've always maintained that the schools should remain open during the summer. They should be there to facilitate extra classes for children that need extra help. They should be there for noon curricular activities like sport and they should be there to mind children while parents go out to earn the taxes that pay the teachers wages.

Schools aren't childminding facilities.

BoatMad

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

many jobs have annualised hours , teaching is in effect just one of them,

There are also plenty of high paid private sector jobs, are programmers getting close to 100K justified that salary in themselves, I suggest not

the world isnt equitable or fair, so what

tupenny

They're not paid enough imo. And need those holidays!
I qualified in st. Pats and threw in the towel within a few years.. seriously difficult job, not all kids or parents are easy. In fact the parents are the worst part of the job.
On top of the lesson plans and reviews.. it's really not a 9 to 3 gig

lemmno

Martina1991 wrote: »

A good few girls I went to school with became teachers. The ones who had a genuine interest/passion for teaching went into primary teaching, a yes a few did Arts and are now secondary teachers with a pretty soft gig.

A soft gig, in secondary school? This is an actual school with teenagers right?!

zeebre12

Can a substitute primary teachers go on the dole over the Christmas/Easter/Summer Holidays?

Noveight

zeebre12 wrote: »

Can a substitute primary teachers go on the dole over the Christmas/Easter/Summer Holidays?

If they're unemployed for those periods then I don't see why not. Open to correction obvs.

BoatMad

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Teachers are not paying taxes and paying for childcare during the summer.

Most people wouldn't like to work, that's not the point. The point is the teachers holidays are a historical artifact that should have long been consigned to the bin.

If an ordinary office worker was on the same hourly rate as a graduate teacher they'd be earning in the region of €60k per annum.

firstly an " office worker " , is very unlikely to have both a degree, and a Diploma, and optionally a masters, ( teachers often have higher degrees )

secondly a NQT is on 33K, has no security of tenure, is part time ( in essence a zero hour contract ) , and IS NOT paid for the summer and has no guarantee of a job when they return after that summer.

Contrast this with another skilled professional, with a computer science degree in programming , who's earning 60K after 2-3 years

seriously dude

BoatMad

zeebre12 wrote: »

Can a substitute primary teachers go on the dole over the Christmas/Easter/Summer Holidays?

yes

Theboinkmaster

tupenny wrote: »

They're not paid enough imo. And need those holidays!
I qualified in st. Pats and threw in the towel within a few years.. seriously difficult job, not all kids or parents are easy. In fact the parents are the worst part of the job.
On top of the lesson plans and reviews.. it's really not a 9 to 3 gig

So €58k pa isn't enough? How does that compare to nurses in the HSE?!

The difference is - there are hundreds of people queuing up to be teachers in this country. Why? Because it's a well paid gig and relatively easy.

How many nurses are lining up in Ireland? Not many, we're exporting them all - because they're paid too low, much lower than €58k.

Supply and demand.

They are overpaid comparatively. Someone in the private sector on that money may have to work a lot more hours unpaid (60 hour weeks), can be made redundant at any time etc.

osarusan

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

So €58k pa isn't enough? How does that compare to nurses in the HSE?!

I've already posted why this figure is pointless:

osarusan wrote: »

You are applying an argument that 'if the daily rate they got was applied to the higher number of days per year, it would be 58K'...but they don't, and can't, work the higher number of days per year, so they don't get 58K, so the comparison is pointless.

BoatMad

So €58k pa isn't enough? How does that compare to nurses in the HSE?!

thats after years and years of service , the starting salary for teachers is 33K, and you start with NO CID, i.e. no guaranteed hours, no guaranteed job, not paid for the summer

the starting salary for a registered nurse is around 28K.

The reason nurses leave is their skills are transferable abroad , that the main reason, if teachers skills were also so, they'd be gone in droves too

) and they are leaving
BY THE WAY thereis a shortage of teachers

"The quality of teaching across primary and secondary schools is at risk due to a lack of qualified teachers, according to an unpublished report commissioned by the Department of Education.
It finds that at second level there is a shortage of teachers in key subjects – such as Irish, home economics, physics and European languages – which is resulting in the use of “out of field” teachers.
These are teachers who are not specifically qualified in a subject area and lack detailed knowledge of the curriculum.
At primary level, there is significant concern over a major shortage of substitute cover for teachers who are absent due to maternity leave, illness or career breaks.
In an analysis of teaching supply between 2010 and 2015, it found that only two-thirds of absences were actually covered by substitutes.
Unions such as the Irish National Teachers’ Organisation (INTO) say the emigration of young teachers – especially to the Middle East – is a key factor behind the shortages"

there are hundreds of people queuing up to be teachers in this country. Why? Because it's a well paid gig and relatively easy.

and that is BS

lemmno

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

So €58k pa isn't enough? How does that compare to nurses in the HSE?!

The difference is - there are hundreds of people queuing up to be teachers in this country. Why? Because it's a well paid gig and relatively easy.

How many nurses are lining up in Ireland? Not many, we're exporting them all - because they're paid too low, much lower than €58k.

Supply and demand.

They are overpaid comparatively. Someone in the private sector on that money may have to work a lot more hours unpaid (60 hour weeks), can be made redundant at any time etc.

Nobody is queuing up to teach in Ireland anymore. Big fall in the last 3 years, there's lots of jobs advertised but nobody is applying for them. Most young Irish teachers are now teaching abroad. CAO points for these courses have also started to fall for the first time in years, giving an indication of how the demand is falling.

oppenheimer1

BoatMad wrote: »

firstly an " office worker " , is very unlikely to have both a degree, and a Diploma, and optionally a masters, ( teachers often have higher degrees )

secondly a NQT is on 33K, has no security of tenure, is part time ( in essence a zero hour contract ) , and IS NOT paid for the summer and has no guarantee of a job when they return after that summer.

Contrast this with another skilled professional, with a computer science degree in programming , who's earning 60K after 2-3 years

seriously dude

There are virtually no office jobs that do not require a higher degree as a minimum entry requirement. Its not the 70's any more where a good LC will get you a good clerical job.

Good graduate jobs start at €25k these days. Computer science is an outlier, and far from typical. Most engineers with 10 years experience would only be beginning to get to €60k - and that's the truth. What's more, is engineering in general is extremely cyclical where five good years are generally followed by two or three bad ones.

Teachers pay is excellent in Ireland, a solid salary and loads of time of which is ideal for family life. Contrast that to any other professional who had to pay almost a second mortgage to cover childcare so teachers can get these excessive amounts of time off due to an historical anomaly.

YFlyer

Teachers make a mint given grinds. How many tell the taxman?

lemmno

YFlyer wrote: »

Teachers make a mint given grinds. How many tell the taxman?

Absolutely.

Like hairdressers doing home visits out of salon hours.
Doctors in the surgery receiving tips.
Driving instructors working hourly from 9am till 11pm and stating they've only had 3 lessons that day.
'Unemployed' makeup artists getting €50 per face on bridal work.
Pubs having lock ins.

You'll find 'side money' everywhere.

YFlyer

Surgents tapping the patients bank cards when patient is under the knife

maudgonner

lemmno wrote: »

Absolutely.

Like hairdressers doing home visits out of salon hours.
Doctors in the surgery receiving tips.
Driving instructors working hourly from 9am till 11pm and stating they've only had 3 lessons that day.
'Unemployed' makeup artists getting €50 per face on bridal work.
Pubs having lock ins.

You'll find 'side money' everywhere.

Wait, hold on...I have to tip my doctor now? :eek:

Is that why he never gives me the good drugs?

Sleeper12

My kids are in their 20s now but when they were in school I always said I wouldn't want them in a class with a teacher that didn't have a long break.
Teaching can be one of the more stressful professions. I've seen quite a few teachers suffering from nerves and some have had complete breakdowns.
None of my family or friends are teachers.

BoatMad

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There are virtually no office jobs that do not require a higher degree as a minimum entry requirement. Its not the 70's any more where a good LC will get you a good clerical job.

Good graduate jobs start at €25k these days. Computer science is an outlier, and far from typical. Most engineers with 10 years experience would only be beginning to get to €60k - and that's the truth. What's more, is engineering in general is extremely cyclical where five good years are generally followed by two or three bad ones.

Teachers pay is excellent in Ireland, a solid salary and loads of time of which is ideal for family life. Contrast that to any other professional who had to pay almost a second mortgage to cover childcare so teachers can get these excessive amounts of time off due to an historical anomaly.

what " historical " anomaly

You are not seriously suggesting that a permanent pensionable position , suddenly stops paying you in June , then restarts in September, yeah , people are going to flood into that profession !!!

this is just a begrudgery debate , nothing more

to show where I come from , I'm a software engineer married to a teacher !

( PS if you need a nice cushy job, apply for a lock keeper position , with waterways ireland, annualised hours, weeks off in the winter etc , there a few opening at the moment )

Good graduate jobs start at €25k these days.

Yep, and until recent pay improvements, wasn't far off where NQT, start also, except most graduates get a " permanent full time job " and dont expect to not get paid for June, July and August and are not faced with moving across the counttry to find work in a new school year

you know very little about the teaching profession it seems

oppenheimer1

Weepsie wrote: »

Then go become a teacher. The option is open to anyone who wants to when they are making their choices. It's not the fault of teachers that child care is stupidly expensive.

Try supervising 30 children a day and see how long you last before burning out.

Ad hominem.

Teaching is not really that hard, (like any job it has it's tough days I'm sure) and in private the teachers I know will say so. At most, the only work that will follow you home is correcting copies - not exactly high stress. Contrast that with almost any other professional, it's fairly unique.

Strangely enough the only teachers I've had that I remember being stressed in the classroom were the bad ones.

mugsymugsy

A poster above said it...if teaching is so great and the perks are so wonderful then go and become a teacher.

BoatMad

YFlyer wrote: »

Teachers make a mint given grinds. How many tell the taxman?

few teachers do grinds, ask around in a typical staff room.

oppenheimer1

BoatMad wrote: »

what " historical " anomaly

You are not seriously suggesting that a permanent pensionable position , suddenly stops paying you in June , then restarts in September, yeah , people are going to flood into that profession !!!

this is just a begrudgery debate , nothing more

to show where I come from , I'm a software engineer married to a teacher !

( PS if you need a nice cushy job, apply for a lock keeps position , with waterways ireland, annualised hours, weeks off in the winter etc )

I suggest that schools should be staying open for longer and if NQT or anyone else wants to earn more then they should be staffing those extended hours.

It's not about begrudgery, it's about fairness. It is not fair that parents end up having to spend a fortune on childcare to allow teachers to take the summer off.

The length of the holidays are an historical anomaly because they were so designed to allow children to work the land during the summer in the 1900s. This was a compromise because it was feared parents wouldn't send their children to school at all if they wouldn't be able to help out on the farms. Hardly relevant now - it only persists because of the teaching unions.

BoatMad

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I suggest that schools should be staying open for longer and if NQT or anyone else wants to earn more then they should be staffing those extended hours.

It's not about begrudgery, it's about fairness. It is not fair that parents end up having to spend a fortune on childcare to allow teachers to take the summer off.

The length of the holidays are an historical anomaly because they were so designed to allow children to work the land during the summer in the 1900s. This was a compromise because it was feared parents wouldn't send their children to school at all if they wouldn't be able to help out on the farms. Hardly relevant now - it only persists because of the teaching unions.

what you have outlined is largely a myth , historically children left school completely by the time they were strong enough to work the land ( i.e. around 12 years of age

One popular idea is that school children have a long summer holiday (six weeks for most pupils in the UK) so that they could help work in the fields over the summer. But the current school system was developed over the course of the 19th century, when English farms were increasingly mechanised and having children helping with the harvest would only have been necessary for a small percentage of the population. Besides which, a brief glance at the farming calendar tells you that a holiday that ends at the start of September is not going to be much use for bringing in the harvest in the early autumn. So whatever the origin of six weeks off at the height of summer is, it’s not for the sake of farmers. Perhaps it was just to be nice to school students by giving them time off at the sunniest part of the year.

The fact is that school holidays largely developed out of the practices that had grown up in universities , where the summer was a time for travel, enlightenment etc

remember the attendance at even secondary school is a modern historical feature and was one that was the preserve of the rich , the poor ( and farmers ) left school at 12 , or even earlier in some cases .

also you have to factor in the amount of time children can attend school at a young age

in the US , where ' Year round education has occurred ", the school period is around 10 weeks , followed by a 3 week break. year round this adds up to a very similar time to the current school year.

The fact remains, the answer to a childs development, is not to fit a child around an adults occupation.

I suggest that schools should be staying open for longer

children find the current school day , more then demanding , and you suggest it should be longer !!

( never mind the fact that many many schools run daily afterschool events and study periods/homework clubs , usually till 5:30 , I know cause my partner supervises them )

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

It's nice to see that people are getting a nice wage while having some good time off. The most important people your kids encounter after parents (in most cases). Isn't it important that the teachers are happy? €40K is not a lot of money. It's only a lot when compared to other lower wages.

Can't we be happy to see others making "decent" earnings without trying to drag them down to a lower level? It would seem to me that a lot of people will only be happy once everybody is on the same crappy €18K a year wage.

BoatMad

heres another article debunking the agrarian myth that causes summer holidays

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/debunking-myth-summer-vacation/

oppenheimer1

BoatMad wrote: »

what you have outlined is largely a myth , historically children left school completely by the time they were strong enough to work the land ( i.e. around 12 years of age




The fact is that school holidays largely developed out of the practices that had grown up in universities , where the summer was a time for travel, enlightenment etc

remember the attendance at even secondary school is a modern historical feature and was one that was the preserve of the rich , the poor ( and farmers ) left school at 12 , or even earlier in some cases .

also you have to factor in the amount of time children can attend school at a young age

in the US , where ' Year round education has occurred ", the school period is around 10 weeks , followed by a 3 week break. year round this adds up to a very similar time to the current school year.

The fact remains, the answer to a childs development, is not to fit a child around an adults occupation.

children find the current school day , more then demanding , and you suggest it should be longer !!

( never mind the fact that many many schools run daily afterschool events and study periods/homework clubs , usually till 5:30 , I know cause my partner supervises them )

And I bet she gets paid by the parents (not the state) for it.

School holidays in the UK are shorter than Ireland. July and August were off so children could help save hay, turf and pick potatoes so of which are harvested during those times. It was feeling there was no point having the schools open if children we're going to be pulled out be parents.

The fact remains the long teacher holidays remain in place because of teachers not pupils.

BoatMad

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

And I bet she gets paid by the parents (not the state) for it.

School holidays in the UK are shorter than Ireland. July and August were off so children could help save hay, turf and pick potatoes so of which are harvested during those times. It was feeling there was no point having the schools open if children we're going to be pulled out be parents.

The fact remains the long teacher holidays remain in place because of teachers not pupils.

firstly , the is paid by the paid for supervision duties ( an additional work load added by the LRA) and that includes home work clubs

School holidays in the UK are shorter than Ireland. July and August were off so children could help save hay, turf and pick potatoes so of which are harvested during those times. It was feeling there was no point having the schools open if children we're going to be pulled out be parents

this again is a myth

compulsory attendance at primary schools was essentially only legally mandated in the 1880s ( from the ages of 5 to ten) and was largely driven in Britain ( and we inherited the legislation ) , by the desire to prevent children working in factories , ( and not on the land ) . This was not summer work, this was all year round issue

This was because few children under the age of around 10, are very useful on farms. But the rise of industrial Britain ,meant they were useful in low paid , but physically undemanding jobs, like feeding spinning machines etc

The fact remains that long summer holidays are actually a throwback from university and private secondary schools that were the preserve of the rich, and such rich people , did not work 9 - 5 ( a reasonably modern undertaking ) and historically decamped to summer homes etc etc ( and to tour etc ). rural kids by an large left schooling completely at the end of the compulsory period , largely because from the ages of 10 onwards , they are beginning to be useful for the physical demanding work that happens on a farm, ( and if you ever worked on a farm , as I have , you'd understand this )

This is the origin of the school summer holidays, a feature of the rich mans calendar , because until recently education was entirely the preserve of the wealthy

BoatMad

Pussyhands wrote: »

So maybe 8-5? Like a normal person works.

normal people work 9-5:30

8-5 is actually illegal if carried on a continuos basis

McCrack

Those that can do, those that cannot teach!!

oppenheimer1

BoatMad wrote: »

firstly , the is paid by the paid for supervision duties ( an additional work load added by the LRA) and that includes home work clubs



this again is a myth

compulsory attendance at primary schools was essentially only legally mandated in the 1880s ( from the ages of 5 to ten) and was largely driven in Britain ( and we inherited the legislation ) , by the desire to prevent children working in factories , ( and not on the land ) . This was not summer work, this was all year round issue

This was because few children under the age of around 10, are very useful on farms. But the rise of industrial Britain ,meant they were useful in low paid , but physically undemanding jobs, like feeding spinning machines etc

The fact remains that long summer holidays are actually a throwback from university and private secondary schools that were the preserve of the rich, and such rich people , did not work 9 - 5 ( a reasonably modern undertaking ) and historically decamped to summer homes etc etc ( and to tour etc ). rural kids by an large left schooling completely at the end of the compulsory period , largely because from the ages of 10 onwards , they are beginning to be useful for the physical demanding work that happens on a farm, ( and if you ever worked on a farm , as I have , you'd understand this )

This is the origin of the school summer holidays, a feature of the rich mans calendar , because until recently education was entirely the preserve of the wealthy

We will have to agree to disagree on the origin in the Irish context.

In any case the grounds for the length of them, be they agrarian or otherwise is founded in the last century and completely outdated. They only survive because of teaching unions.

The holidays are for the teachers not the pupils. Teachers have no problem throwing anyone under the bus, be that NQT or pupils when they feel their conditions are threatened.

BoatMad

so children could help save hay, turf and pick potatoes

Turf cutting for a typical home takes 3 hard days. potatoes ( non commercial ) were largely picked by the women and hay making is generally an activity that is beyond the physical ability of say 8 year olds ( traditionally hay making )

BoatMad

McCrack wrote: »

Those that can do, those that cannot teach!!

that phase is shortened

those that can do, those that cannot, teach those that do

Sleeper12

BoatMad wrote:

children find the current school day , more then demanding , and you suggest it should be longer !!

Totally agree.
To a lot of parents teachers are little more than child minders. It's why you hear people give out about school holidays. It means that they have to mind their own kids and take time off work. Most of the arguments put forward on this thread are nonsense.
I've heard plenty of psychologists and child psychologists and they all agree on this.
Homework for primary school is not healthy for children. They should be playing after school not doing homework. Children also need holidays.
Another comment above that teaching is not a difficult job! I see this all the time on boards. Posters thinking that they have the hardest job in the world and a monkey can do everyone else's job.
Teachers have found it harder and harder to control the class. They can't assault children anymore. Sad to think that this was part of their job description when I was a child. But it's hard to punish a child in school. Then you get parents giving out to the teacher. Don't talk to my child like that etc.
I think anyone that can't see how it can be a difficult job just doesn't want to see.
Walk a mile in my shoes, as the song says

Elmo

Martina1991 wrote: »

Yeah, teachers get a year long salary like other jobs, but they have at least 2 solid months off work. Which is why some people become jealous/ annoyed.

So train to become a qualified teacher. Simple.