Mother Teresa - 20 years ago

kylith

markodaly wrote: »

Hospices in Ireland perhaps but this was India 1948 when she started out. When more money and resources became available she can be certainly criticised for not embracing more modern and available pain relief methods, but do you honestly think that there was a plethora of readily available pain relief drugs available in India in the 1940's and 1950's?

We're not talking about the 50s, Mark, we're talking about now.

markodaly wrote: »

People are displaying their own ignorance in thinking even today India is similar to Ireland in the resources available, the legal obligations regarding morphine and other controlled substances and the reality of poverty.

Ireland 1948 is a million miles away to the Ireland of today but India, and for those who know what real absolute poverty is like will know what I am on about, India at that time is on a different galaxy to what we know now in Ireland.

One of the greatest criticism levelled against Teresa in India is that she has given the world the idea that India is some sort of backward hole of poverty and squalor. While there is certainly poverty that we haven't seen here for, thankfully, a long, long time Kolkata is a vibrant and thriving city.

Ironically, the contraception which Teresa herself was against would have done a lot to ease some of the pressures on poor families.

markodaly wrote: »

Todays generation would run away screaming if they had to work a few hours in such conditions but by god, can they type on a keyboard and blow a lot of old bluster about things they know very little about.

People volunteer in India all the time. One reported that conditions were so bad in one of the Mother Teresa orphanages that they only lasted 3 days. Food was mixed by hand on the ground, children were restrained, children were left unattended on toilets for extended periods. Again, this is not the 50's this is recent. From an organisation which receives millions in donations.

markodaly

pitifulgod wrote: »

You are actively ignoring criticisms and blaming it on cynicism. .

No, I acknowledge the criticisms, some of which is valid. I also acknowledge the good, some of which is valid. See a balanced approach.

So, why are you focusing entirely on the negative and ignoring the positives?

kylith

markodaly wrote: »

I repeat, cynicism is the god of today.

No, just truth and transparency.

markodaly wrote: »

No, I acknowledge the criticisms, some of which is valid. I also acknowledge the good, some of which is valid. See a balanced approach.

So, why are you focusing entirely on the negative and ignoring the positives?

Ok. These people died in pain, separated from their families, with a roof over their head.

kylith

markodaly wrote: »

Yes there is, to which I have acknowledge numerous times.

The thing is pitful is that there are plenty of legitimate good deeds done that her critics don't even acknowledge. Its not even a debate of 'she did a lot of good but also some questionable things', its a debate of 'shes evil, worse than hitler' Full stop

Now I am not even sure a reasonable debate can be had at this stage.

What good did she do that outweighs the bad that continues to be done in her name?

markodaly wrote: »

In an ideal world of course. What if you had started out and had no money to buy pain relief medication and even at that was restricted by law to administer it, what then? Give up I suppose or maybe google an answer to the question in 1948 India... ROFL.

Not calling someone a serpent or evil is defending someone now?

The Hope foundation did all that in 1948 India, tell me more!

Why are you so fixated on 1948? We're talking about now.

pitifulgod

markodaly wrote: »

No, I acknowledge the criticisms, some of which is valid. I also acknowledge the good, some of which is valid. See a balanced approach.

So, why are you focusing entirely on the negative and ignoring the positives?

Well, you're conveniently ignoring the vast majority that I've said each time. I won't be engaging with you again until you deem yourself capable of justifying not returning the Keating money.... :pac:

markodaly

kylith wrote: »

We're not talking about the 50s, Mark, we're talking about now.

MT has been dead 20 years, or haven't you heard. At least you acknowledge the reality of 1940's and 1950's India.

One of the greatest criticism levelled against Teresa in India is that she has given the world the idea that India is some sort of backward hole of poverty and squalor. While there is certainly poverty that we haven't seen here for, thankfully, a long, long time Kolkata is a vibrant and thriving city.

India even today has some of the worst poverty on earth. In fact over 20% of the world absolute poor live in this one country. According to the empowerment line some 680 million Indians lack means to meet the basic needs, while at the same time India has a Nuclear Arms program and a Space program. Makes sense right?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-dobbs-/india-poverty-myths_b_5429858.html

Calcutta itself even today is one of the poorest cities on earth and in the top 5 of the poorest places in India. Lets not pretend is Dubai or Doha.

If people have a perception that a place is poor and has lots of poverty, it generally means just that. Better to shine a light on it and try and fix it rather some western journalist gets offended.

People volunteer in India all the time. One reported that conditions were so bad in one of the Mother Teresa orphanages that they only lasted 3 days. Food was mixed by hand on the ground, children were restrained, children were left unattended on toilets for extended periods. Again, this is not the 50's this is recent. From an organisation which receives millions in donations.

A dose of reality so for the naive. Not sure what they were expecting. When you volunteer for such program you need to be prepared for anything. My niece did a stint as a nurse in Kenya and some of the stories she told us would make you weak at the knees.

One day a 2 year old girl came in with 2nd degree burns over 50% of her body, apparently she knocked over a pot boiling water which they use for cooking. Anyway, with no pain killers (none available) and with no gauze (yeap none available), they had to literally carve off the burnt skin with a scalpel, all the time while the child was awake. She was very traumatised by the experience but was certainly a wake up call to the reality of life and health care is like in the poorest parts of the world in 2017.

It is one thing reading about it, or seeing it on TV but when you live it for an extended period of time and you realise that life for many is a battle for survival, a daily grind just to not die, then all the pontification and all the ivory tower 'should have, could have, would have' debate amounts for nothing.

markodaly

pitifulgod wrote: »

Well, I'm conveniently ignoring the vast majority of good .... :pac:

FYP

ohnonotgmail

markodaly wrote: »

MT has been dead 20 years, or haven't you heard. At least you acknowledge the reality of 1940's and 1950's India.



India even today has some of the worst poverty on earth. In fact over 20% of the world absolute poor live in this one country. According to the empowerment line some 680 million Indians lack means to meet the basic needs, while at the same time India has a Nuclear Arms program and a Space program. Makes sense right?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-dobbs-/india-poverty-myths_b_5429858.html

Calcutta itself even today is one of the poorest cities on earth and in the top 5 of the poorest places in India. Lets not pretend is Dubai or Doha.

If people have a perception that a place is poor and has lots of poverty, it generally means just that. Better to shine a light on it and try and fix it rather some western journalist gets offended.



A dose of reality so for the naive. Not sure what they were expecting. When you volunteer for such program you need to be prepared for anything. My niece did a stint as a nurse in Kenya and some of the stories she told us would make you weak at the knees.

One day a 2 year old girl came in with 2nd degree burns over 50% of her body, apparently she knocked over a pot boiling water which they use for cooking. Anyway, with no pain killers (none available) and with no gauze (yeap none available), they had to literally carve off the burnt skin with a scalpel, all the time while the child was awake. She was very traumatised by the experience but was certainly a wake up call to the reality of life and health care is like in the poorest parts of the world in 2017.

It is one thing reading about it, or seeing it on TV but when you live it for an extended period of time and you realise that life for many is a battle for survival, a daily grind just to not die, then all the pontification and all the ivory tower 'should have, could have, would have' debate amounts for nothing.

i think you missed this bit in the post you quoted

Food was mixed by hand on the ground, children were restrained,

or do you consider that just reality that we have to deal with? children tied up like dogs.

pitifulgod

markodaly wrote: »

FYP

You've made it clear that you yourself are incapable of meeting basic standards of a reasonable discussion. Best of luck. :rolleyes:

kylith

markodaly wrote: »

A dose of reality so for the naive. Not sure what they were expecting.

Maybe for small children not to be tied to beds in a place that bears the name of a woman supposed to be one of the most holy and loving ever to hav ewalked the earth.

markodaly wrote: »

When you volunteer for such program you need to be prepared for anything. My niece did a stint as a nurse in Kenya and some of the stories she told us would make you weak at the knees.

One day a 2 year old girl came in with 2nd degree burns over 50% of her body, apparently she knocked over a pot boiling water which they use for cooking. Anyway, with no pain killers (none available) and with no gauze (yeap none available), they had to literally carve off the burnt skin with a scalpel, all the time while the child was awake. She was very traumatised by the experience but was certainly a wake up call to the reality of life and health care is like in the poorest parts of the world in 2017.

It is one thing reading about it, or seeing it on TV but when you live it for an extended period of time and you realise that life for many is a battle for survival, a daily grind just to not die, then all the pontification and all the ivory tower 'should have, could have, would have' debate amounts for nothing.

Good for your niece, however you're ignoring the fact that we are not talking about piss-poor hospitals in Africa, we're talking about Mother Teresa's crowd. With the money the Sisters of Charity have they could build state of the art hospitals. They could build orphanages and homes and employ people to care for the patients and children. They could buy pain medication and gauze and antibiotics to their hearts content! But they don't. Because pain is beautiful. Suffering is being kissed by Jesus. And it would eat into the higher-ups bottom lines.

jimboblep

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I believe Christopher Hitchens wrote a fairly scathing assessment of her work in the late 90s, sadly the name of the book escapes me.

The missionary position

the_pen_turner

just for clarity. I do loads of charity work. this year alone I have donated about 30 days to local church's(2 COI and 1 RC) and the local community centre. some carpentry work (about 5 days) , rest general maintenance of the building and grounds etc. even some fundraising for them.

strange thing is I'm atheist but see it more as a community thing rather than a religious thing.

and I do stand over my claim that she is one of the most evil people to walk the planet. not up there with Hitler but not too far away

the reason are all above. here is what I use to decide on evil.

if I took in a homeless person or poor person and gave them a roof over their head I would rightly be called a good person.
if I fed ,clothed, medically helped, got them a job , etc I think people would say I'm great.
do that for loads of homeless and they say your a saint

now if I lock that person in the spare room, no food , no water, no toilet, no cleaning facilities I would rightly be called a horrible person
if I tied that person to the bed and stabbed them with possibly contaminated needles I would be called a psycho path and rightly so
do that to loads of people and you would be called an evil person. and rightly so

all the facts and evidence points towards her being an evil person. now where you rank her level of evil compared to others is debatable


it is the fact that her evil was fundraised for and funded by so many that makes it so much worse

The_Kew_Tour

An evil woman, who then the RCC decided should be a saint. Says it all.

gctest50

markodaly wrote: »

......................

My niece did a stint as a nurse in Kenya and some of the stories she told us would make you weak at the knees.

One day a 2 year old girl came in with 2nd degree burns over 50% of her body, apparently she knocked over a pot boiling water which they use for cooking.

..........

Which organization was running the show in the place in Kenya she went to ?

mark_jmc

And it seems to me, she lived her life, like a sandal in the bin

markodaly

gctest50 wrote: »

Which organization was running the show in the place in Kenya she went to ?

Primarily the Kenyan government but her volunteering was organised through an NGO.

Guy:Incognito

markodaly wrote: »

Em, yes there was!

Did you not read the article or do a quick google? Morphine could not be administered outside of large hospitals. If Mother Teresa or the Sisters of Charity employed a doctor to administer Morphine to the dying in Calcutta they would be breaking Indian law. This is a documented fact. She/They were working within the confines of the law.

Will I need to say this again in a few posts time?

That was the case then. I think there was an amendment to the 'The Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances (Amendment) Bill, 2011' a few years ago to relax this requirement but as MT has been dead 20 years now not sure you can blame her for that.

Why didn't she use the millions to build a large hospital then? Would that not be the best thing for sick people?

Edit. Beaten to it.

There's a long time between 1948 and 1997 mind. A nice big new hospital would have been welcomed at any stage.....

Benjamin Buttons

mark_jmc wrote: »

And it seems to me, she lived her life, like a sandal in the bin

I think the opening lines go something like this:

Goodbye Mother T
Though I never knew you at all
You always did 'big up' yourself
While those around you crawled....

gctest50

markodaly wrote: »

Primarily the Kenyan government but her volunteering was organised through an NGO.

You can do it !

markodaly wrote: »

.....

through an NGO.......

Which one ?

Andrewf20

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

I believe it was called The Missionary Position :pac:

He has a documentary on this from 1994 called hells angel. It's on YouTube. Fascinating stuff.

Benjamin Buttons

Benjamin Buttons wrote: »

Correct, here's more on that subject below....a couple of paragraphs down.
It's an article written by journalist Eamonn McCann in 2008.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/eamonn-mccann/eamonn-mcann-was-it-fair-to-jail-shahra-marsh-but-let-greedy-bankers-go-free-28450601.html

''In the 1980s, Keating, a devout Catholic and passionate ‘pro-lifer’, ran a saving and loans company which attracted funds from thousands of relatively poor people, many impressed by his claim to be motivated not by greed but by religious zeal. Many families were left penniless when it emerged that he had embezzled more than $250m of their money. McCain’s repeated interventions with federal investigators on Keating’s behalf aren’t playing well with Middle America in these days of meltdown and malice. But McCain wasn’t as close to Keating as Teresa. For her, the fact that the fraudster was vigorously involved in ‘pro-life’ campaigning outweighed all other factors. As well, he had deposited more than a million dollars of the stolen money into her bank account.

When the LA district attorney’s office asked her to give the money back to its rightful owners, she point-blank refused, quipping that the wad had now become “God’s money”.

After Keating’s conviction, Teresa wrote to Judge Ito (yes, the chap from the first OJ trial) begging him to go easy on her benefactor. She later sent Keating a crucifix blessed by John Paul himself to hang in the cell where he was serving 10 years.

Given that rather higher standards are commonly expected from saints than from US presidents, the question which now arises is this: if association with Keating renders McCain unworthy of election, surely the same consideration should make Teresa a no-no as far as canonisation is concerned? I leave that one with the Vatican''.

Were those convictions not overturned?

Guy:Incognito

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Were those convictions not overturned?

On a couple of technicalities it seems, then took a plea on lesser charges in the run up to the retrial.

Marshes

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

An evil woman, who then the RCC decided should be a saint. Says it all.

True, A lot of the Saints had an evil side to them.

Marshes

Andrewf20 wrote: »

He has a documentary on this from 1994 called hells angel. It's on YouTube. Fascinating stuff.

I would second this recommendation, I just saw this documentary the other week. Excellent.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

On a couple of technicalities it seems, then took a plea on lesser charges in the run up to the retrial.

But the accusation that he embezzled 250 mill was set aside, wasn't it?

And the "technicality" was that the Jury was misdirected by the Judge. Which isn't really a technicality in the "they spelled his name wrong" sense, more of a "perhaps the single biggest wrong that can happen during a trial by jury".

The lesser charges involved a much lesser sum too.

Was any charity here that got support from any of the failed banks over the years asked to hand it back?

The article by McCann is looking more and more like a hatchet job...

The_Kew_Tour

Marshes wrote: »

True, A lot of the Saints had an evil side to them.

Ya the Vatician has lot of blood on its hands too.

gctest50

Deleted User wrote: »

..................

Was any charity here that got support from any of the failed banks over the years asked to hand it back?

..............

Paul Kelly the Console scumbag was asked to hand back the DFA grant :

http://www.thejournal.ie/console-grants-3540761-Aug2017/

THE DEPARTMENT OF Foreign Affairs (DFA) has asked former Console bosses to repay €150,000 in grants it received.

gctest50

gctest50 wrote: »

Paul Kelly the Console scumbag was asked to hand back the DFA grant :

But that was presumably based on the conduct of the recipient rather than the source of the funds.

Benjamin Buttons

Deleted User wrote: »

But the accusation that he embezzled 250 mill was set aside, wasn't it?

And the "technicality" was that the Jury was misdirected by the Judge. Which isn't really a technicality in the "they spelled his name wrong" sense, more of a "perhaps the single biggest wrong that can happen during a trial by jury".

The lesser charges involved a much lesser sum too.

Was any charity here that got support from any of the failed banks over the years asked to hand it back?

The article by McCann is looking more and more like a hatchet job...

Another 'hatchet job', this time from 'The Telegraph':

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/the-most-notorious-financial-frauds-in-history/charles-keating/

jmayo

Doltanian wrote: »

20 years ago on this day we said goodbye to a champion of Humanity Mother Teresa of Calcutta. She devoted her life to helping the poor and destitute, often her care was the only attention they received on their death bed. Her order of nuns continue to do great work in India and worldwide today. Her death was overshadowed by the media circus surrounding the death of Lady Diana at the time.

Two great women of charity and who had the best at heart for the poor and destitute.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/54/bb/2c/54bb2cff7a90be77ca1360e7baafa3e8.jpg

Great work my ar**.
She was walking whore who believed others should suffer torment whereas she got to go to fancy clinics.

Some of the people that ended up in her hospital would have had a better death on the streets.

bob50 wrote: »

I was just checking

I see Mother Teresa is now known as Saint Teresa of Calcutta
...

Which pope again was the one that beatified her in the first place and started the ball rolling on the sainthood?

Oh yeah it was that Polish lad that covered up all the child abuse in the church, the lad that was also best mates with the likes of Fr Marcial Maciel, the founder and leader of the Legionaires of Christ.
You know the lad, the lifelong paedophile from Mexico, that the lad from Germany who happened to have been in Hitler Youth as a young fellow kicked to touch when he got in.

Oh and if you want to have another laugh look into the supposed miracles that are down to witch from Calcutta.
You know the miracles that means she is a saint.

ohnonotgmail

jmayo wrote: »

Great work my ar**.
She was walking whore who believed others should suffer torment whereas she got to go to fancy clinics.

Some of the people that ended up in her hospital would have had a better death on the streets.



Which pope again was the one that beatified her in the first place and started the ball rolling on the sainthood?

Oh yeah it was that Polish lad that covered up all the child abuse in the church, the lad that was also best mates with the likes of Fr Marcial Maciel, the founder and leader of the Legionaires of Christ.
You know the lad, the lifelong paedophile from Mexico, that the lad from Germany who happened to have been in Hitler Youth as a young fellow kicked to touch when he got in.

Oh and if you want to have another laugh look into the supposed miracles that are down to witch from Calcutta.
You know the miracles that means she is a saint.

i'm sensing some resentment towards her.

Oops69

And that polish bollix John Paul wasted no time in making her a saint ...on another issue that eye sore in the Phoenix park doesn't remind me of Christ , unfortunately it reminds me of John Paul's visit , I believe it should be removed .

jmayo

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i'm sensing some resentment towards her.

She was one of the world's greatest frauds.
And you had every gobshyte licking her ar**, wanting to be seen with her.

In the long run she was more interested in creating a legacy, her order, than really helping suffering people.

ohnonotgmail

jmayo wrote: »

She was one of the world's greatest frauds.
And you had every gobshyte licking her ar**, wanting to be seen with her.

In the long run she was more interested in creating a legacy, her order, than really helping suffering people.

ah sure i know that and completely agree with you.

The_Kew_Tour

Ah lads why did ye have bring up John Paul another ****.

That fella deserves his own thread. Some of the stunts he pulled....

jmayo

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Ah lads why did ye have bring up John Paul another ****.

That fella deserves his own thread. Some of the stunts he pulled....

Sorry that was me.
But he was part of the whole rotten cabal.
As with all of them it was Church first and screw the victims.

kylith

And Ratzinger sent a letter reminding priests to keep schtum and not report anything to the cops.

Kalimah

I was in Calcutta earlier this year as I said in an previous post. We went to see the Mother House where Mother Teresa is buried. I was astounded to see a large marble tomb covered with garlands and flowers. There is an exhibition on her life in an adjoining room which I looked at. I spent quite a bit of my time biting my tongue on the way around!

I visited a tiny hospital in Calcutta run by the Hope Foundation. It's budget is a little over 360k as far as I remember. Without doubt it was the most inspiring place I have ever been. It was clean, bright, and the patients were so well looked after. How in the name of heaven can anyone leave people to die without pain relief or comfort? It's moral bankruptcy to do anything else.