So my car needs a new engine..

Howdy folks.

I have a 2009 citroen C5, 1.6hdi diesel. it's got about 270km on the clock and it's never really given any trouble.


Recently it developed a leak in the coolant department. but it was looked at and some stop-leak seemed to work on it.


On Sunday I was driving it and heard a sudden loud tapping/clicking. Engine lost all power and car was towed home.

Mechanic just sent me a text to say he stuck the car up on the ramp and it's bad news. Engine is gone as there's a hole in the back of it.


I'm trying not to dwell on it too much but now I'm curious about my next steps.

From what I gather (haven't actually called to mechanic yet) I'll be needing a new engine. My mechanic says he doesn't do work that big and as such can't give me a rough price. Although I'm hoping he knows someone who can deal with it.


In the meantime I'm looking to see if anyone has any advice or opinions at all? Or can anyone give a realistic idea on the cost of replacing a 1.6 diesel engine in a c5.

I paid 9k for the car 2 years ago, and i really like the cae, so hesitant to part with it. On the other hand, if the price is crazy then obviously it's something I may be forced to do.


Anyone able to offer any advice?

Cheers.


- A very deflated KKV.

Stallingrad

Sorry for your trouble OP, it's a very common engine so you should be able to find a replacement easy enough (eg Traynors up North). First preference is a repair, so you need a proper diagnosis as to what is wrong from a mechanic able to to do the work.

millington

Stallingrad wrote: »

Sorry for your trouble OP, it's a very common engine so you should be able to find a replacement easy enough (eg Traynors up North). First preference is a repair, so you need a proper diagnosis as to what is wrong from a mechanic able to to do the work.

If theres a hole in it it's beyond repair :eek:

You can chance the scrappers for another engine. Shouldn't be more than a few hundred then the same again to put it in.

Or you could buy a recon unit but it would probably be as much as the value of the car.

boardsuser1

I had a Ford Focus of the same year with the same size engine.

I assume they are the same one's?

never again would i go for a 1.6 diesel.

Gravelly

Shouldn't be that difficult an engine to get from a scrapper but I'd make sure I got a guarantee on it. If your mechanic thinks it's too big a job you need a new mechanic. Any decent mechanic would know where to source an engine with a guarantee on it.

Del2005

Gravelly wrote: »

Shouldn't be that difficult an engine to get from a scrapper but I'd make sure I got a guarantee on it. If your mechanic thinks it's too big a job you need a new mechanic. Any decent mechanic would know where to source an engine with a guarantee on it.

Sourcing the engine is the easy bit. Fitting is a different ball game. I'd rather a truthful mechanic who admits that they can't do a job vs one who takes on too big a job or something that they aren't 100% sure of being able to do.

Gravelly

Del2005 wrote: »

Gravelly wrote: »

Shouldn't be that difficult an engine to get from a scrapper but I'd make sure I got a guarantee on it. If your mechanic thinks it's too big a job you need a new mechanic. Any decent mechanic would know where to source an engine with a guarantee on it.

Sourcing the engine is the easy bit. Fitting is a different ball game. I'd rather a truthful mechanic who admits that they can't do a job vs one who takes on too big a job or something that they aren't 100% sure of being able to do.

Personally I wouldn't want a mechanic who can't do a simple engine transplant working on my car, but maybe that's just me.

JohnBoy26

Gravelly wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't want a mechanic who can't do a simple engine transplant working on my car, but maybe that's just me.

He mightn't take on the work but that doesn't mean he isn't capable of doing it. These engines can be sh1tty to work on and sourcing a good 1.6 hdi might not be that easy.

If not serviced properly and in some cases even when serviced properly they can develop serious oil sludge problems that is next to impossible to clean out of the engine properly which is why getting a good one is very difficult.

The op is probably a loyal customer so id expect the mechanic to help them out but maybe the mechanic is looking at the bigger picture and doesn't want the op returning with issues from the new engine like turbo failure or even repeated turbo failure which can happen on these even when repaired and cleaned properly.

grogi

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

The op is probably a loyal customer so id expect the mechanic to help them out but maybe the mechanic is looking at the bigger picture and doesn't want the op returning with issues from the new engine like turbo failure or even repeated turbo failure which can happen on these even when repaired and cleaned properly.

Take the sump out and clean it out, replace the turbo oil feed pipes. Flush the engine (with for instance Liqui Moly PRO-LINE ENGINE FLUSH) after fitting and replace oil after 5k.

JohnBoy26

grogi wrote: »

Take the sump out and clean it out, replace the turbo oil feed pipes. Flush the engine (with for instance Liqui Moly PRO-LINE ENGINE FLUSH) after fitting and replace oil after 5k.

It's still not fail safe. Sludge has been known to still remain in the engine even after taking all the proper precautions. Inpection of the oil feed on a regular basis is the best way to reduce the chances of repeated turbo failure imo.

These engines are very difficult to clean after turbo failure beween the soot and the sludge and blocked dpf it isn't that easy.

Howdy do folks.


I've been using my mechanic for around 5 years or so. He's always been pretty good to me and I would recommend him all day long. But I think he'll be hitting the retire button in the next few years and I get the impression he, as said above, doesn't want the headache of such a job. I agree with an above poster who said they'd rather a mechanic with honesty.


So where I'm at at the moment is this:

I googled, and a place came up in said google search, called Dan Daly Engines:

http://www.dandalyengines.com/


They said they can tow the car to their place and take a proper look. They reckon a reconditioned engine is the way to go. Said their engines will come with turbochargers etc. all done and a one year guarantee with it. He said it'd be about €3,000.


Can anyone comment on this? I'm not sure if I'm getting a good deal or not?

A place called Howard Engineering said it'd be 2k + Vat to fix the engine, or if the engine is 'punctured' (which is what he said after i mentioned the hole in it) he said it'd be 4k + Vat.


I tried to ring one or two others (IVI was the name of one) but couldn't get through to them.

George Dalton

That car is not worth fixing IMO.

bazz26

Unfortunately I'd say it's a write off at those type of figures. I wouldn't be pumping 3k to 4k into a nearly 9 year old C5 that was probably worth about 5k when it was driving. Sentimental values aside you'd probably want to look at this from a financial point and cut your loses.

Well, realistically speaking, what are my alternatives?

I can spend €3k on the car and have an engine in it from a presumably trusty source who will stand over it for a year.

Or I can scrap it/break it, and buy something else.


It's important to note, I suppose, that I do about 50k km per year. Having a car I can rely on is an important enough aspect to me. I can't buy a brand new car because i'd pay about 20k for it and with the mileage I do, it'd be worth nothing in a years time.


Or I can spend about 3k on a used car, but then I can potentially walk into this same issue again (or similar).


I'm a bit up in the air on what to do to be honest. But the 3k engine seems like the best idea, no?

grogi

I wouldn't pump 3k into it...

JohnBoy26

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, realistically speaking, what are my alternatives?

I can spend €3k on the car and have an engine in it from a presumably trusty source who will stand over it for a year.

Or I can scrap it/break it, and buy something else.


It's important to note, I suppose, that I do about 50k km per year. Having a car I can rely on is an important enough aspect to me. I can't buy a brand new car because i'd pay about 20k for it and with the mileage I do, it'd be worth nothing in a years time.


Or I can spend about 3k on a used car, but then I can potentially walk into this same issue again (or similar).


I'm a bit up in the air on what to do to be honest. But the 3k engine seems like the best idea, no?

A well maintained older car from a brand and model with a good reliability reputation would be the best bet imo.

If I decided to go that route, what would I do with the C5? I presume it's worth, at most, about €300 to a scrapyard?

also i presume if i went to a dealer they'd not entertain it as a trade in or 'scrappage' (I know the scrappage schemes arent actually scrappage schemes).

Stephenc66

Deleted User wrote: »

If I decided to go that route, what would I do with the C5? I presume it's worth, at most, about €300 to a scrapyard?

Deleted User wrote: »

also i presume if i went to a dealer they'd not entertain it as a trade in or 'scrappage' (I know the scrappage schemes arent actually scrappage schemes).

It looks to me like it is not about the residual value of the car but having something that does the job you need it to do reliably

You have done your research on the replacement engine so the minimum spend is €3,000 plus maybe a new clutch while the engine is out.

I know you said previously about buying another car for €3k only you know how much extra you might be able to add on top of the €3k to buy another car. When you know the budget research what cars are out there that might suite your needs at that price.

https://www.donedeal.co.uk/cars?sort=price%20asc&fuelType=Diesel&price_from=3000&price_to=3500&year_from=2009

Then you can make a more informed decision.

grogi

I would consider putting that 3k towards a PCP deposit... Cost of owing new are often surprisingly not that much higher than keeping an older car.

Allinall

I would agree with sleeper66 (sp)

If you think the rest of the car is sound- suspension, brakes, tires , electrics etc. then I would go for a reconditioned engine.

The monetary value of the car before the trouble or now is irrelevant .

The value to you is a reliable car that can put up big mileage.

One that you know with a fresh engine fits the bill.

grogi

grogi wrote: »

I would consider putting that 3k towards a PCP deposit... Cost of owing new are often surprisingly not that much higher than keeping an older car.

A new car's value is the issue. If I spend 20k on a new car, this time next year it has 50k km on it and no one wants to touch it cos every other car the same only has about 10k on it.

If I bought a new car I'd never get rid of it and if anything went wrong, it'd be even more sour :P

Allinall

Allinall wrote: »

I would agree with sleeper66 (sp)

If you think the rest of the car is sound- suspension, brakes, tires , electrics etc. then I would go for a reconditioned engine.

The monetary value of the car before the trouble or now is irrelevant .

The value to you is a reliable car that can put up big mileage.

One that you know with a fresh engine fits the bill.

Well I've had a warning light appear (but then disappear) about 'particle filter faulty'. but i gave it a good high-rev spin on the motorway and it disappeared.

I presume that's just the DPF needing cleaning out though, more so than anything else? (and not at all engine related).

The car needed a forced regeneration about 2 years ago when I got it. but it has otherwise been generally okay. I can't recall any issues with it other than a coolant leak recently. Considering the mileage it does, it's not given any issues at all (except this, obviously).

bucketybuck

Deleted User wrote: »

A place called Howard Engineering said it'd be 2k + Vat to fix the engine, or if the engine is 'punctured' (which is what he said after i mentioned the hole in it) he said it'd be 4k + Vat.


I tried to ring one or two others (IVI was the name of one) but couldn't get through to them.

Try again. Howards are not a garage for example, I've used them for engineering work in the past but they are not somebody I would bring the vehicle to.

You don't need the engineering crowds, you need a good mechanic who will lift out your engine and replace it with a 2nd hand one. You want somebody who already deals with a few breakers and who knows what to look for. The actual engine swap itself isn't really all that difficult.

discodaveirl

Did you try condron dismantlers? Nearly sure they provide a supply and fit service.

ednwireland

grogi wrote: »

I would consider putting that 3k towards a PCP deposit... Cost of owing new are often surprisingly not that much higher than keeping an older car.

what would penalty charges be like on a pcp if you were doing 50000km a year ?

im always getting my car repaired even though its worth nothing (previous car had a top end rebuild got another 4 years out of it) mainly cos i dont have the cash to buy a newer one !

ectoraige

We replaced the engine in our 2010 C4 Picasso in January, also a 1.6 tdi. We got it from a breakers, it had 60,000 km on it and included turbo, I think it cost somewhere in the region of €450. Our mechanic fit it for €600.

grogi

ednwireland wrote: »

what would penalty charges be like on a pcp if you were doing 50000km a year ?

im always getting my car repaired even though its worth nothing (previous car had a top end rebuild got another 4 years out of it) mainly cos i dont have the cash to buy a newer one !

Penalty is there only if you hand the car back and walk away. The worst option, so they are really irrelevant.

honda boi

Same thing happened to me last year .
1.6tdci car was 2004 model.payed 2450€ for it. Turbo blew 2 weeks after I bought it and destroyed engine.
Cost around 2k to fix.
Add clutch /flywheel and other things that have gone wrong I'd say I've pumped over 3-3.5k at least into.
So 5k easily.
Car is worth about 2k at a push now I'd say.
If I knew all this last year I would have scrapped the car.
My advice,cut your losses. Get another car.
If you plan on getting another 1.6 make sure it was looked after like a baby!!
Now I know these engines are great/economic and that but I'd say its like hens teeth to find one that's been serviced and looked after on time.

grogi

ectoraige wrote: »

We replaced the engine in our 2010 C4 Picasso in January, also a 1.6 tdi. We got it from a breakers, it had 60,000 km on it and included turbo, I think it cost somewhere in the region of €450. Our mechanic fit it for €600.

And that is the reasonable cost. 3k is just insane

colm_mcm

The one for a grand is a lottery though. If the one for €3k is actually reconditioned then it may be worth making extra for, you're relying on their word for it though.

I'm going against the grain here I suppose, but realistically, KKV isn't going to buy a 00 Avensis. What he has is still pretty modern, and they're very comfy, yeah they're probably only worth €5-6k but it's worth €0 as it sits. Spending €3k to make it worth even €4K makes sense in this case. It's down to what are you getting for the €3k - what new parts have they put in, what's the warranty etc.


Good article here that goes into a bit of detail
http://www.drive.com.au/tips-and-advice/why-reconditioned-neednt-mean-good-condition-20100824-13npr.html

Yawns

I'd expect to pay between €1100 - €1500 for engine and labour. That's enough of a rough guide to work with that should vary with different mechanics. 3k is bat **** insane.

Toyotafanboi

Yawns wrote: »

I'd expect to pay between €1100 - €1500 for engine and labour.

If you have a 1.4 Corolla maybe.

You'll not get one of those 1.6 HDI engines for that money, or at least not a trustworthy one

Voodoomelon

colm_mcm wrote: »

The one for a grand is a lottery though. If the one for €3k is actually reconditioned then it may be worth making extra for, you're relying on their word for it though.

I'm going against the grain here I suppose, but realistically, KKV isn't going to buy a 00 Avensis. What he has is still pretty modern, and they're very comfy, yeah they're probably only worth €5-6k but it's worth €0 as it sits. Spending €3k to make it worth even €4K makes sense in this case. It's down to what are you getting for the €3k - what new parts have they put in, what's the warranty etc.


Good article here that goes into a bit of detail
http://www.drive.com.au/tips-and-advice/why-reconditioned-neednt-mean-good-condition-20100824-13npr.html

Good link that. But almost laughable in this country at the same time.

"Starting with a full tear-down of the motor:
-every moving part should be either replaced or returned to its original specification.
-Parts slated for replacement should include the pistons, all bearings (camshaft, main and big-end) timing chains or timing gears, lifters, valves and valve springs.
-Other components, such as the crankshaft, should be machined to return the bearing surfaces to as-new. Conrods should likewise be carefully inspected and tested for cracks and stretching.
-The camshaft should either be replaced or reground back to its original specifications.
-The cylinder block itself needs to be re-bored and honed for a perfectly round, cross-hatched finish that will be compatible with the new pistons and rings.
-Other components such as the oil pump should be replaced."

Is there a single place in the country that does all that as a matter of course? I doubt it. More like "whats wrong with this one? Big end bearings? Swap them out and stick it on a pallet when you're done".

Peanut2011

I've used IVI few years ago to change Mondeo's engine. It was €1,500 supply and fit.

The chaos were decent to deal with but warranty is not great and is short. Unfortunately it only lasted for a year and we had to scrap the car after.

Yawns

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

If you have a 1.4 Corolla maybe.

You'll not get one of those 1.6 HDI engines for that money, or at least not a trustworthy one

Father got a 1.6 sourced and fitted for that money and it's still going a year later with mileage similar to the op...

Toyotafanboi

Yawns wrote: »

Father got a 1.6 sourced and fitted for that money and it's still going a year later with mileage similar to the op...

He should play the lottery!

Yawns

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

He should play the lottery!

Probably. Or just never buy a ford again. He's had awful trouble with them over the years. I'll never buy a car with that 1.6 engine again anyway.

dr.fuzzenstein

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Good link that. But almost laughable in this country at the same time.

"Starting with a full tear-down of the motor:
-every moving part should be either replaced or returned to its original specification.
-Parts slated for replacement should include the pistons, all bearings (camshaft, main and big-end) timing chains or timing gears, lifters, valves and valve springs.
-Other components, such as the crankshaft, should be machined to return the bearing surfaces to as-new. Conrods should likewise be carefully inspected and tested for cracks and stretching.
-The camshaft should either be replaced or reground back to its original specifications.
-The cylinder block itself needs to be re-bored and honed for a perfectly round, cross-hatched finish that will be compatible with the new pistons and rings.
-Other components such as the oil pump should be replaced."

Is there a single place in the country that does all that as a matter of course? I doubt it. More like "whats wrong with this one? Big end bearings? Swap them out and stick it on a pallet when you're done".

That whole joblist makes perfect sense. If you're talking about an engine from a 1970's classic car with a few hundred thousand miles on it that sat in a a barn for 30 years being used as a chicken coop.
On a modern used engine with less than €50k km on it that is designs to go round the 100k quite a number of times, that level of rebuild is batsh*t crazy and complete overkill.

Toyotafanboi

Yawns wrote: »

Probably. Or just never buy a ford again. He's had awful trouble with them over the years. I'll never buy a car with that 1.6 engine again anyway.

It does seem like that style of diesel engine is going the way of the past very very quickly.

magentis

Yawns wrote: »

Probably. Or just never buy a ford again. He's had awful trouble with them over the years. I'll never buy a car with that 1.6 engine again anyway.

Had two cars with that engine,over 250,000 miles put on them,never an issue.

These engines need oil changes every 8,000 miles with a low saps 5w30 c2 oil,they are a very dirty engine compared to others.The sump is badly designed in them too in that the drain plug is a little recessed into the sump and its difficult to drain them properly.The turbo oil feed pipe strainer can block easily also.Injector clamps not being tight enough can be a cause of sludge build up too apparently.
I understand that in many cases of turbo failure the replacement often fails a short time later.Once these get sludged up its very difficult to get them clear again.
A difficult engine to buy from a breakers imo.

Toyotafanboi

Seen this pic on a Facebook page recently, 1.6 HDI oil filter that ran over it's service interval.

honda boi

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Seen this pic on a Facebook page recently, 1.6 HDI oil filter that ran over it's service interval.

Probaly ran over only by a few miles knowing that engine

discodaveirl

discodaveirl wrote: »

Did you try condron dismantlers? Nearly sure they provide a supply and fit service.

I'll google and ring them, do no harm.

ectoraige wrote: »

We replaced the engine in our 2010 C4 Picasso in January, also a 1.6 tdi. We got it from a breakers, it had 60,000 km on it and included turbo, I think it cost somewhere in the region of €450. Our mechanic fit it for €600.

Care to mention the mechanic's name?

Peanut2011 wrote: »

I've used IVI few years ago to change Mondeo's engine. It was €1,500 supply and fit.

The chaos were decent to deal with but warranty is not great and is short. Unfortunately it only lasted for a year and we had to scrap the car after.

I seen them on a google search but the number listed didn't work when I tried to ring it. I presumed they'd perhaps closed up shop or something. I'll try them again tomorrow and hope for the best.


A few people have mentioned a place up north called Traynors, who apparently have engines galore and will deliver them to you, which means you're in the lottery game, but you then are just lookign to get a mechanic to do an engine swapover.

I've been hearing the same thing over and over, that €3k is mental money. I'd like to half the cost but at the same time, it's easier said than done. I'll ring a few more places tomorrow and see what happens.

mikeybrennan

ectoraige wrote: »

We replaced the engine in our 2010 C4 Picasso in January, also a 1.6 tdi. We got it from a breakers, it had 60,000 km on it and included turbo, I think it cost somewhere in the region of €450. Our mechanic fit it for €600.

There's a joke in there somewhere:)

road_high

Yawns wrote: »

Probably. Or just never buy a ford again. He's had awful trouble with them over the years. I'll never buy a car with that 1.6 engine again anyway.

That 1.6 d in so many PSA, Fords and Volvos etc strikes again!
Are still making this pile of rubbish or haszit been completely overhauled? The amount of threads on here involving that particular engine is crazy...

road_high

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'll google and ring them, do no harm.





Care to mention the mechanic's name?






I seen them on a google search but the number listed didn't work when I tried to ring it. I presumed they'd perhaps closed up shop or something. I'll try them again tomorrow and hope for the best.


A few people have mentioned a place up north called Traynors, who apparently have engines galore and will deliver them to you, which means you're in the lottery game, but you then are just lookign to get a mechanic to do an engine swapover.

I've been hearing the same thing over and over, that €3k is mental money. I'd like to half the cost but at the same time, it's easier said than done. I'll ring a few more places tomorrow and see what happens.

Seem to have an active website anyhow -
http://www.iviengines.ie/

colm_mcm

road_high wrote: »

That 1.6 d in so many PSA, Fords and Volvos etc strikes again!
Are still making this pile of rubbish or haszit been completely overhauled? The amount of threads on here involving that particular engine is crazy...

They've (ford) moved to a 1.5 now, we have them at work doing 100k a year mostly city driving and no issues.

Initially was available in the Fiesta. But now on courier, connect, Mondeo, Focus, etc - even kuga.

bazz26

Ford's 1.5 is derived from the older 1.6 PSA unit afaik.

colm_mcm

bazz26 wrote: »

Ford's 1.5 is derived from the older 1.6 PSA unit afaik.

So they say. Could just mean they use the same block

road_high

What are PSA doing? Are Mazda, Volvo and Mini still using it also?
It was very popular and common here due to the Irish love of small capacity diesels... remember that was a factor in me buying one way back when. The issues weren't well known circa 2008 though