Issue with Deposit and repair of damage to wall.

John_D80

I am a landlord myself but am asking a question on behalf of a friend as this is an issue I've never encountered before.

Tenant had family party in the house and a guest causes major damage to an interior wall. Tenant reports damage to landlord (my friend). Tenant can't afford to repair damage and asks can the landlord pay for repairs and take it out of her deposit. Repairs would cost around 80% of the deposit.

Landlord is willing but wants the tenant to top up the deposit back to the full amount over the course of a few months.

This is effectively a loan in my opinion but my friend is curious as to where he would stand should a dispute arise later. I think he should tell her that it's her responsibility to get it fixed but she is in fairness a very good tenant who has been there for nearly 5 years with no issues previous to this.

It's not gotten to the "dispute" stage yet and he doesn't want it to but these things can get messy.

Opinions greatly appreciated.

davo10

John_D80 wrote: »

I am a landlord myself but am asking a question on behalf of a friend as this is an issue I've never encountered before.

Tenant had family party in the house and a guest causes major damage to an interior wall. Tenant reports damage to landlord (my friend). Tenant can't afford to repair damage and asks can the landlord pay for repairs and take it out of her deposit. Repairs would cost around 80% of the deposit.

Landlord is willing but wants the tenant to top up the deposit back to the full amount over the course of a few months.

This is effectively a loan in my opinion but my friend is curious as to where he would stand should a dispute arise later. I think he should tell her that it's her responsibility to get it fixed but she is in fairness a very good tenant who has been there for nearly 5 years with no issues previous to this.

It's not gotten to the "dispute" stage yet and he doesn't want it to but these things can get messy.

Opinions greatly appreciated.

Where's the "dispute"?

The wall got damaged while your friend was renting house, he is responsible fot it's repair. The deposit is for expenses at the end of the tenancy, what if your friend causes more damage between now and then and the cost of repair is greater than deposit? I think the LL is being very good by allowing deposit to be used to repair now, I know I wouldn't.

Subcomandante Marcos

davo10 wrote: »

Where's the "dispute"?

The wall got damaged while your friend was renting house, he is responsible fot it's repair. The deposit is for expenses at the end of the tenancy, what if your friend causes more damage between now and then and the cost of repair is greater than deposit? I think the LL is being very good by allowing deposit to be used to repair now, I know I wouldn't.

Ops friend is the landlord, not the tenant.

The_Conductor

Ditto- this is not the purpose of the deposit.
Ok- the tenant cannot afford to pay for it right now- what I'd suggest is getting a reasonable quote for the damage- and get it repaired and increment the cost of the repair onto the rent for an agreed period of time- I'd suggest 10 months- and leave the deposit intact...........

A deposit is to cover damage over and above normal wear and tear at the end of the tenancy- not things like this midway through the tenancy.

By rights- the tenant should chase her family member who caused the damage- for the cost of fixing it- and then make a mental note that they are off the invite list for any future parties.

This is between the tenant and his/her guest- I'm not even really clear how or why the landlord is involved in this?

davindub

John_D80 wrote: »

I am a landlord myself but am asking a question on behalf of a friend as this is an issue I've never encountered before.

Tenant had family party in the house and a guest causes major damage to an interior wall. Tenant reports damage to landlord (my friend). Tenant can't afford to repair damage and asks can the landlord pay for repairs and take it out of her deposit. Repairs would cost around 80% of the deposit.

Landlord is willing but wants the tenant to top up the deposit back to the full amount over the course of a few months.

This is effectively a loan in my opinion but my friend is curious as to where he would stand should a dispute arise later. I think he should tell her that it's her responsibility to get it fixed but she is in fairness a very good tenant who has been there for nearly 5 years with no issues previous to this.

It's not gotten to the "dispute" stage yet and he doesn't want it to but these things can get messy.

Opinions greatly appreciated.

It shouldn't be an issue, but yes it should be treated separately to the deposit, i.e. pay back over a few months.

You might shop around, I don't know how little the deposit is, but it should only be a couple of hundred for a plasterboard wall repair?

davo10

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Ops friend is the landlord, not the tenant.

Apologies, I misread op, thought friend was tenant.

Sleeper12

The simplest solution is not to get the wall repaired just yet.

Instead of using the deposit & then charging more per week to pay back the deposit, charge more per week till you have enough for the damage.
This way landlord will always have the full deposit and the tenant gets to live with the damaged wall for a few weeks /months. I'm all for speedy repairs but in this case it's tenants fault and he has to pay for it.

John_D80

The_Conductor wrote: »

Ditto- this is not the purpose of the deposit.
Ok- the tenant cannot afford to pay for it right now- what I'd suggest is getting a reasonable quote for the damage- and get it repaired and increment the cost of the repair onto the rent for an agreed period of time- I'd suggest 10 months- and leave the deposit intact...........

A deposit is to cover damage over and above normal wear and tear at the end of the tenancy- not things like this midway through the tenancy.

By rights- the tenant should chase her family member who caused the damage- for the cost of fixing it- and then make a mental note that they are off the invite list for any future parties.

This is between the tenant and his/her guest- I'm not even really clear how or why the landlord is involved in this?

I discussed this with him as an option but he was wondering if a new agreement would have to written up to allow for the temporary increase in rent. And would he even be allowed legally to temporarily raise the rent even for something like this.

They do have a very good relationship which he doesn't want to jeopardise but I personally can't help but feel he should keep it strictly business and let her look after this on her own.

John_D80

davindub wrote: »

It shouldn't be an issue, but yes it should be treated separately to the deposit, i.e. pay back over a few months.

You might shop around, I don't know how little the deposit is, but it should only be a couple of hundred for a plasterboard wall repair?

Quote for repairs was €680 all in. Painting included.

And at that they're getting off lightly. He showed me a picture she sent him. It's fairly major damage. It's actually both sides of the wall. As in two rooms.

colm_mcm

Sounds like some party

John_D80

colm_mcm wrote: »

Sounds like some party

The girl herself (tenant) is as mild mannered as the come funnily enough.

Apparently a cousin of hers had a major eppy after a feed of drink.

Also about as much chance of getting blood from a spud as getting money out of him.

The_Conductor

John_D80 wrote: »

I discussed this with him as an option but he was wondering if a new agreement would have to written up to allow for the temporary increase in rent. And would he even be allowed legally to temporarily raise the rent even for something like this.

They do have a very good relationship which he doesn't want to jeopardise but I personally can't help but feel he should keep it strictly business and let her look after this on her own.

It really is between the tenant and their guest- and it is an abuse of the relationship with the landlord to try and involve him/her in this mess.........

Legally- the landlord cannot increase the rent by greater than that allowed under the RTA (i.e. if its in an RPZ'ed area- they are limited to an initial 4% over 24 months and 4% per annum thereafter.......

If the landlord is intent on helping the tenant out- it should be purely on a business basis- once you deviate from this- you're opening yourself to a world of hurt.

I would suggest the only reasonable manner for the landlord to help the tenant out (and it would be helping the tenant out- this issue is between the tenant and their guest)- is by allowing the tenant use their deposit to pay for the damage- and then insisting the deposit is brought up to a normal level- over an agreed period of time- and putting the whole lot in writing.

It really is quite audacious of the tenant to chase the landlord rather than their guest- for the damage caused........... I don't see how or why either the tenant or the landlord is liable- its the guest who caused the damage- and to be brutally honest- if the damage is as described- their guest is damn lucky chasing them for reparation is the only sanction they face.

davindub

John_D80 wrote: »

Quote for repairs was €680 all in. Painting included.

And at that they're getting off lightly. He showed me a picture she sent him. It's fairly major damage. It's actually both sides of the wall. As in two rooms.

Idiotic alright.

Yep collect it as a separate charge, get the tenant to sign the invoice and note to be repaid over x months.

John_D80

The_Conductor wrote: »

It really is between the tenant and their guest- and it is an abuse of the relationship with the landlord to try and involve him/her in this mess.........

Legally- the landlord cannot increase the rent by greater than that allowed under the RTA (i.e. if its in an RPZ'ed area- they are limited to an initial 4% over 24 months and 4% per annum thereafter.......

If the landlord is intent on helping the tenant out- it should be purely on a business basis- once you deviate from this- you're opening yourself to a world of hurt.

I would suggest the only reasonable manner for the landlord to help the tenant out (and it would be helping the tenant out- this issue is between the tenant and their guest)- is by allowing the tenant use their deposit to pay for the damage- and then insisting the deposit is brought up to a normal level- over an agreed period of time- and putting the whole lot in writing.

It really is quite audacious of the tenant to chase the landlord rather than their guest- for the damage caused........... I don't see how or why either the tenant or the landlord is liable- its the guest who caused the damage- and to be brutally honest- if the damage is as described- their guest is damn lucky chasing them for reparation is the only sanction they face.

Solid advice. Thanks.

Re: the bolded bit.

This is the crux of the issue for me. He is a bit more naive though unfortunately. Just hope he doesn't get burned because of his good nature.

The_Conductor

Honestly- he should tell the tenant to chase their guest- and insist they repair the damage.
Its a bit stupifying how/why they are chasing the landlord over this.
The landlord needs to cop on- letting a property is a business- if they go down the road of entertaining crap like this- they shouldn't be in business.

Mrs OBumble

This is nothing to do with the landlord - except for ensuring that the repairs are carried out to a suitable standard.

Tenant needs to have a discussion with their credit union or similar lender re how to access cash to pay for the repair.

The Landlord is not in the lending business. If they try getting into it, eg by lending some of the deposit to the tenant and having it paid back through loaded rent payments, things could get very messy and difficult to audit from a tax perspective. Worse case Revenue could get 50% of the amount.

the_syco

John_D80 wrote: »

I discussed this with him as an option but he was wondering if a new agreement would have to written up to allow for the temporary increase in rent. And would he even be allowed legally to temporarily raise the rent even for something like this.

Is he in a rent controlled area? If it is, and they do the rent increase, the tenant could turn around at a later stage, and use the rent increase against your mate. Heck, they could get a few thousand off your mate.

John_D80 wrote: »

Also about as much chance of getting blood from a spud as getting money out of him.

Not really your mates problem.

=-=

IMO, have your mate talk to a solicitor regards evicting the tenant due to the damage. If your mate can evict, fix the place, invoice the tenant, and if the tenant won't pay (either from savings or a loan), look into starting eviction proceedings.

John_D80

the_syco wrote: »

Is he in a rent controlled area? If it is, and they do the rent increase, the tenant could turn around at a later stage, and use the rent increase against your mate. Heck, they could get a few thousand off your mate.

Yeah he is so we dont think it will be possible to even draft a new agreement that would allow for the rent to be raised temporarily to allow the repairs to be paid off monthly.

the_syco wrote: »

IMO, have your mate talk to a solicitor regards evicting the tenant due to the damage. If your mate can evict, fix the place, invoice the tenant, and if the tenant won't pay (either from savings or a loan), look into starting eviction proceedings.

Knowing him and knowing their good relationship (even now), that will be the absolute last thing he would ever consider. I genuinely couldn't see it coming to that either.

I'm sure he'll see sense and realise that what she is requesting is not a good idea for anyone concerned and tell he that she needs to find an alternative way to pay for the repairs.

spaceHopper

Get it fixed, offset it against tax, she makes a separate payment along side the rent till the balance is paid for.

seagull

You'd have to document it as a loan rather than a temporary increase in rent.

April 73

Could the landlord draw up a simple agreement between himself & the tenant to state he is paying for the repair now but that the tenant is liable and will repay the advance over x months? Have it witnessed by a notary?
Without a written agreement you could run into difficulties with rpz legislation, LL taxation etc.

Victor

John_D80 wrote: »

I discussed this with him as an option but he was wondering if a new agreement would have to written up to allow for the temporary increase in rent.

It's not an increase in rent. It is a payment for damage.

P. Breathnach

spaceHopper wrote: »

Get it fixed, offset it against tax, she makes a separate payment along side the rent till the balance is paid for.

You can't offset the cost of the repair against tax if it is reimbursed by the tenant.