over height load at tunnel

knipex

On my way to work this morning I get stuck in traffic at the tunnel. The news and AA road-watch were reporting a jackknifed truck but in reality just at the entrance to the tunnel (literally a foot away) was an Artic with a load of bales stacked way too high.

This got me thinking

As I was approaching the tunnel there were signs with "oversize load please divert" at the approach exits. You tend to see these every so often but normally the load will have turned of on the dock road exit.

Also on the immediate approach to the tunnel the Green arrows were red crosses indicating stop.

Obviously the driver had ignored or not seen the "please divert signs" and the red do not enter signs before something or someone stopped him at the tunnel.

My understanding is that shortly after I passed the information signs started displaying "tunnel closed" so a lot of traffic diverted and I understand that the gardai blocked the road but 20 or 30 of us got caught up before that happened.

Now we got going in about 40 \ 45 minutes (still late for work but could have been a lot worse) and I am assuming the road remained closed until the truck could be removed.

What is the penalty to the driver (and the company) for something like this ??

Berty

You can't miss the signs. I passed around 8am and no truck in sight but I'd heard about in on the radio who did say jacknifed as well.

The roads are full of idiots. They don't use mirrors , indicators , eyes or brains.

Driving without due care sounds about right as an offence.

knipex

Berty wrote: »

You can't miss the signs. I passed around 8am and no truck in sight but I'd heard about in on the radio who did say jacknifed as well.

The roads are full of idiots. They don't use mirrors , indicators , eyes or brains.

Driving without due care sounds about right as an offence.

Was just after 7 when i got caught... They had released all those of us that got caught by 7:40 / 7:45.

Not sure what time they opened the tunnel again or how the rerouted the truck. Do they make him reverse and turn and let him out the dock road exit or do the close it from the other side long enough for him to change over and go back to the dock road exit..

Actually curious how long the road was closed,

Cookiemunster

This unfortunately is an all too common occurrence. At least this time the driver didn't try to continue passed the barriers and damage the tunnel. I've been caught twice in the last 2 years on my way to work due to over height vehicles. Any driver who ignores the signs and continues onto the tunnel should have his HGV licence revoked.

Berty

knipex wrote: »

Not sure what time they opened the tunnel again or how the rerouted the truck. Do they make him reverse and turn and let him out the dock road exit or do the close it from the other side long enough for him to change over and go back to the dock road exit..

They go up the little access road before the tunnel, over the top and back down the other way. When you pass the next time look at the signs you'll see a black sign with a picture of a truck on it. It's the EU logo for truck diversions I think.

tanit

To be honest it might not have been the driver's fault. They know the heights for tunnels and the like but they don't load the trucks and if the guys doing it don't follow instructions or don't realise about the height of the load and the tunnels, the lorry driver might not realised how high is the load they carry until they get to the tunnel and they notice they are not going to fit.

My father was a lorry driver and that happened to him the driver is not in charge of loading the whole thing and goes by whatever has been told about the load dimensions.

eyebrows63

tanit wrote: »

To be honest it might not have been the driver's fault. They know the heights for tunnels and the like but they don't load the trucks and if the guys doing it don't follow instructions or don't realise about the height of the load and the tunnels, the lorry driver might not realised how high is the load they carry until they get to the tunnel and they notice they are not going to fit.

My father was a lorry driver and that happened to him the driver is not in charge of loading the whole thing and goes by whatever has been told about the load dimensions.

The driver is responsible for his load , it's up him to check the load is secure and safe , depending what he's carrying has to make sure the load is properly strapped down .

bazz26

tanit wrote: »

To be honest it might not have been the driver's fault. They know the heights for tunnels and the like but they don't load the trucks and if the guys doing it don't follow instructions or don't realise about the height of the load and the tunnels, the lorry driver might not realised how high is the load they carry until they get to the tunnel and they notice they are not going to fit.

My father was a lorry driver and that happened to him the driver is not in charge of loading the whole thing and goes by whatever has been told about the load dimensions.

A truck driver should know the height as well as the weight of his/her load. It's their responsibility otherwise how would they know what route to take to avoid low level bridges, etc around the country?

tanit

My apologies if I have not been clear. The driver gets paperwork stating what has been loaded and he does a check but he does not have the skills nor the instruments to actually verify that the height is not what it appears in the papers and beyond basic check ups about the safety of the load he can't do anything else.

I don't know if it is different in Ireland, but in Spain he gets paperwork that it states the height of what has been loaded and he checks more or less whether things are tied or the container close. But he can only do a basic check up and of course he knows the height and the loads he can carry, but it happens that the people that load the things do one thing and state in the paperwork a different one. In my father's case he had an incident when he was carrying a machine with an arm that retracted. The arm was not retracted properly in full when it was loaded and what it appear with one height in the papers it was another one in reality. He cut train and electricity cables in one crossing and he was lucky that nothing but the cutting of the cables happened. He didn't get into trouble because he had done his due diligence and the paperwork agreed with his version of events but someone got into trouble for not doing the job they were supposed to do.

So the driver does check and plan the route on the basis of what he has been told and he can do a basic check of the truck but there is a limit to what he can do and the people that load the thing have a significant responsibility on the loads they put and declare in the paperwork. They are the ones loading the truck and manipulating things.

I don't know of course if that is what happened in this case but the guy might have told one thing in the paperwork and suddenly get to the tunnel and see that he was not going to fit. I'm just speculating and I don't think that things are going to work different in Ireland than in Spain regarding who is responsible. The lorry driver does not load anything and there is a limit to what he can do to guarantee the safety of the load. In Spain that is recognised and if protocols have been followed and the driver and paperwork agree the responsibility passes to whoever loaded the truck.

knipex

tanit wrote: »

To be honest it might not have been the driver's fault. They know the heights for tunnels and the like but they don't load the trucks and if the guys doing it don't follow instructions or don't realise about the height of the load and the tunnels, the lorry driver might not realised how high is the load they carry until they get to the tunnel and they notice they are not going to fit.

My father was a lorry driver and that happened to him the driver is not in charge of loading the whole thing and goes by whatever has been told about the load dimensions.

The driver is 100% responsible for his load.

And in this case 100% responsible for ignoring the information signs on approach warning of the over height load..

Plus the driver isn't going to suddenly notice he wont fit when he approaches the tunnel. The load is behind and above him. He cannot even see the top

steveon

they should have build the tunnel higher like people asked them to do, I remember An Post asking for it to be higher at the time for use of the so called supertruck, instead of saying we didn't need it and saved all this continuous bother and disruption...and actually have more vehicles been able to avail of it.

Ignorance of a driver might be a factor but its a factor that was easily solvable as if a vehicle is allowed on the road at a certain height then all new infrastructure should be able to accommodate it.

JupiterKid

The number of very high "super trucks" you now see on the roads here is disconcerting. What's the point in allowing them on our network if they don't clear the tunnels and even some motorway bridges?

steveon

JupiterKid wrote: »

The number of very high "super trucks" you now see on the roads here is disconcerting. What's the point in allowing them on our network if they don't clear the tunnels and even some motorway bridges?

Exactly my point it was clear the trucks were coming so why not have been ready for them as an post had already used them in Limk prior to the tunnel been built a joke

Atlantic Dawn

You simply need to put in a €100k fine for hitting a bridge, 3 year prison sentence and loss of driving and haulage licence for 10 years as penalty for first offence, problem solved. These incidents cause the economy losses in the millions each year.

JupiterKid

Double post - please delete!

Cookiemunster

Vehicles higher than 4.65m have been banned from Irish roads since November 2013. Therefore the tunnel is high enough for any legal vehicle on Irish roads.

OfTheMarsWongs

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Vehicles higher than 4.65m have been banned from Irish roads since November 2013. Therefore the tunnel is high enough for any legal vehicle on Irish roads.

Yesterday I drove in the dual carriageway behind a truck that was carrying a mobile home. Was surprised to see it head towards the tunnel. Must have just made the height.

tanit

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

You simply need to put in a €100k fine for hitting a bridge, 3 year prison sentence and loss of driving and haulage licence for 10 years as penalty for first offence, problem solved. These incidents cause the economy losses in the millions each year.

Can I ask you if you have ever know a truck driver or be related to one or ever worked on a logistics company? The reason I'm asking it's because my father was a lorry driver in Spain and through him I know the things they are really responsible for and the things they are not. Again I don't know whether the same rules apply to Ireland but in Spain the driver has very little control over the cargo and in fact there are regular check points they need to stop so that it's verified that the cargo it's the way it's supposed to be, that the containers have not been open and the papers they get are in order.

If a container is not full and whoever loaded it did not do things properly and the contents are moving inside the container making driving very "interesting" the driver will have to wait until it gets to a checkpoint and can do something about it. He can't open the container because he'll get into a ****load of problems with the logistics company, the owner of the load, the insurance company (and these people are the ones that set up all the rules about how and who touches the cargo) and the police.

So I know this is from Spain but I truly doubt that the insurance company is going to have different rules for Ireland that for mainland EU.

So so long as you don't have knowledge about all this stop threats about jail and fines in the thousand hundred euros. Think before you speak

Pkiernan

tanit wrote: »

To be honest it might not have been the driver's fault. They know the heights for tunnels and the like but they don't load the trucks and if the guys doing it don't follow instructions or don't realise about the height of the load and the tunnels, the lorry driver might not realised how high is the load they carry until they get to the tunnel and they notice they are not going to fit.

My father was a lorry driver and that happened to him the driver is not in charge of loading the whole thing and goes by whatever has been told about the load dimensions.

Total cop out...

Pkiernan

https://youtu.be/mKarbrOme_Y

tanit

Pkiernan wrote: »

https://youtu.be/mKarbrOme_Y

Again the insurance company is the one that sets up the rules of the game. They decide who and how the cargo is manipulated and you can put as many videos about using tape measuring but that only means that you don't know the industry and the rules governing the industry.

The insurance company is the one that pays if something goes wrong and they are very touchy with protocols and how they are followed. You either follow them or you are into deep s**t.

I don't exactly know the rules of the game in Ireland but again I doubt they are going to be much different than in the continent.

Cookiemunster

tanit wrote: »

Again the insurance company is the one that sets up the rules of the game. They decide who and how the cargo is manipulated and you can put as many videos about using tape measuring but that only means that you don't know the industry and the rules governing the industry.

The insurance company is the one that pays if something goes wrong and they are very touchy with protocols and how they are followed. You either follow them or you are into deep s**t.

I don't exactly know the rules of the game in Ireland but again I doubt they are going to be much different than in the continent.

A truck driver is just as responsible for his load as the people loading it. If he's doesn't know what's loaded then he shouldn't be driving.

From the RSA.

Who is responsible for securing loads?

Load security is not just the sole responsibility of the vehicle driver— employers, vehicle owners, drivers and loading and unloading staff all have a role to play in ensuring loads are secure

The Driver: On the road, the driver is responsible for the
load so the driver should know how the vehicle has been
loaded and how the load is secured. While carrying out the
journey, the driver should check that the load is secure at
regular intervals as the load may settle or move during the
journey

The rules are set by the government / EU, not by the insurances companies.

tanit

Cookiemunster wrote: »

A truck driver is just as responsible for his load as the people loading it. If he's doesn't know what's loaded then he shouldn't be driving.

From the RSA.

Who is responsible for securing loads?

Load security is not just the sole responsibility of the vehicle driver— employers, vehicle owners, drivers and loading and unloading staff all have a role to play in ensuring loads are secure

The Driver: On the road, the driver is responsible for the
load so the driver should know how the vehicle has been
loaded and how the load is secured. While carrying out the
journey, the driver should check that the load is secure at
regular intervals as the load may settle or move during the
journey

The rules are set by the government / EU, not by the insurances companies.

Exactly the same rules as in Spain they do a basic check up and they need to know about the load (the famous papers I was talking about). They should know but they don't say in that paragraph that they touch or place the loads because they don't have that expertise: they drive they don't load. They make a basic check up and verify that things are okay but they don't touch or manipulate the load and they need to verify that the load info they get is in order (the famous papers I was talking about) but they don't have the expertise to load the cargo. That's what happened to my father.

Does the machine look properly secure in the truck? Yes
Is the machine arm retracted? Yes
Is there anything weird going on with the cargo? No
Height of the truck with the cargo stated in papers? Yes
Do we fit under cables as per stated allowed heights? Yes

Get to crossing with machine cut electricity and train cables. Sh*t storm in full
Insurance company, police, train company, logistics company screaming hell and murder. Protocols verified heights checked on papers, heights did not correspond with papers and hence cables cut. Sh*t storm over whoever loaded the machine because my father did not have either the responsibility or the expertise to know that the fecking arm was not fully retracted.

It's like asking a solicitor to perform a surgery because they are acting in loco parentis for the patient. They check that the surgeon is qualified, that is following rules and protocols and that everything is in order but even if they are next to the surgeon they are not going to know if the cut the surgeon is doing is correct and he is doing or not any damage. He'll have to ask another surgeon.

There is as much you can do outside your area of expertise. You should know but there is a limit to what you can do. We are not God, there is a limit to what you can do and once you reach that, your responsibility ends.

You can't accuse people without knowing, you can't speculate without stating it's just that (again I don't know whether the driver did something wrong or not I was just speculating on the basis of previous experience in the area) and you can't start asking for jail term and thousand of euros in fines without knowing what happened. We are talking about people's livelihoods, please think twice before doing something like that.

Pkiernan

tanit wrote: »

Exactly the same rules as in Spain they do a basic check up and they need to know about the load (the famous papers I was talking about). They should know but they don't say in that paragraph that they touch or place the loads because they don't have that expertise: they drive they don't load. They make a basic check up and verify that things are okay but they don't touch or manipulate the load and they need to verify that the load info they get is in order (the famous papers I was talking about) but they don't have the expertise to load the cargo. That's what happened to my father.

Does the machine look properly secure in the truck? Yes
Is the machine arm retracted? Yes
Is there anything weird going on with the cargo? No
Height of the truck with the cargo stated in papers? Yes
Do we fit under cables as per stated allowed heights? Yes

Get to crossing with machine cut electricity and train cables. Sh*t storm in full
Insurance company, police, train company, logistics company screaming hell and murder. Protocols verified heights checked on papers, heights did not correspond with papers and hence cables cut. Sh*t storm over whoever loaded the machine because my father did not have either the responsibility or the expertise to know that the fecking arm was not fully retracted.

It's like asking a solicitor to perform a surgery because they are acting in loco parentis for the patient. They check that the surgeon is qualified, that is following rules and protocols and that everything is in order but even if they are next to the surgeon they are not going to know if the cut the surgeon is doing is correct and he is doing or not any damage. He'll have to ask another surgeon.

There is as much you can do outside your area of expertise. You should know but there is a limit to what you can do. We are not God, there is a limit to what you can do and once you reach that, your responsibility ends.

You can't accuse people without knowing, you can't speculate without stating it's just that (again I don't know whether the driver did something wrong or not I was just speculating on the basis of previous experience in the area) and you can't start asking for jail term and thousand of euros in fines without knowing what happened. We are talking about people's livelihoods, please think twice before doing something like that.

If your dad couldn't be arsed to know the height of his trailer then he has put fellow road users at risk of injury or death and should have been put off the road.

tanit

Pkiernan wrote: »

If your dad couldn't be arsed to know the height of his trailer then he has put fellow road users at risk of injury or death and should have been put off the road.

My dad was never considered responsible for the cables. He never put the lives of anyone at risk and that was recognised by everyone. He could've died that day because someone else didn't do his job. If he would've been guilty his licence would've been withdrawn but he continued driving for many years after.

When people like you chose people to blame without knowledge of what has happened you do real damage to the real victims. You also show absolutely no empathy for the ones around you and you make absolutely no attempt to understand the situations they live and work on.

thesimpsons

dont know much about trucks but regularly come across vehicles looking dangerously loaded. I stopped one truck after following it for a good while on the Limerick Cork road few years ago. pipes were shifting and sliding backwards as the truck was travelling. The truck driver didn't look in the least troubled by the pipes, "ah sur, I didn't load them" he said. I was I find it incredible that a driver wouldn't be responsible for the height of their vehicle,the load on the vehicle and ensuring that retractable arms are fully retracted and secured before heading on the roadways.