Should people who got less than 500 points in the leaving even allowed to vote?

Mr.H

blinding wrote:

Should people in fianna fail be allowed to vote....

They usually just abstain......

Omackeral

Not jealousy here, Marcus. I've a career I absolutely love and the hardest part of my day is when the alarm goes off. If you can say that, you've little to be jealous of in my opinion.

Omackeral

Also, for someone so super rounded and awesome, I notice you spent the entirety of your Friday night on an internet message board.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

What about people who did the leaving before it was dumbed down? Are they all going to be disenfranchised?

Sleeper12

marcus001 wrote: »

In my experience the socially awkward ones actually did surprisingly poorly in the leaving. Turns out they weren't nerds they were just quiet.

These are the same excuses people who did poorly in the leaving cert used to use back in the day. "Well I'd rather be well rounded" etc. I did better than all the so called nerds in my school and played GAA the entire time, had plenty of friends and a girlfriend. When I went to college everyone in my course got over 500 as well and they were all more or less the same as me. Not a single one of them would be considered socially awkward. Again just an excuse people use for being a lazy ****e and not studying. Its like saying, "I could be better than Wayne Rooney if I trained as hard as him" but you don't.

Also, north of 450 seems a pretty low bar to be considered so intelligent it begins to affect your social skills. Perhaps a hint of jealousy?

Leaving cert results aren't a great way of measuring most things imo.

Had an Irish teacher. He'd come in & write an essay on the board. We had to copy it in our copy book & learn it for homework. He didn't spend more than a few minutes explaining what it all meant in English. Parents complained that he wasn't doing his job. His answer was his job was not to teach Irish but to help us pass the exams. His students had a better pass rate than anyone else. This was around 1980. Not sure if this still works.

There are some very intelligent people that just don't thrive in school & I think almost every teacher will tell you that they have some students do extremely well throughout the year but collapse during exams.
That's not trying to take away from all those wonderful lads & lasses that do great in their exams

qwerty ui op

Op you honestly show a serious lack of judgement, having had a look at the first three pages of this thread I'll bet that you make some very serious bad decisions in your life.

DuMorph

marcus001 wrote: »

How much more competent would our political class be if they were handpicked and held to account by the cognitive elite?

marcus001 wrote: »

It's up there. Grades are highly correlated with IQ and trait industriousness. People with faster brains are able to crystallise more information and are also able to cover material faster resulting in better academic performance.

How did you do in English?

VinLieger

marcus001 wrote: »

Its not a perfect measure but its the best one we have. Not many people who get below 500 could be considered "smart".

Its got nothing to woth intelligence and is to do with reproducong the answer exactly as told.

Someone with no understanding of the subjects but had an iedetic memory could walk in and get 600 points.

The leaving cert is not a grade for intelligence also your elitism is pretty fcking disgusting

myshirt

Xenji wrote: »

If you are using the leaving cert as an intellectual guage you are way off.

Absobloodyexactly. Op, you should be the one who loses the vote.

Guy:Incognito

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sure why not scrap democracy altogether? :rolleyes:

We could have a vote and decide.

pumpkin4life

Even though marcus is right about IQ and its power as a predictor and no doubt the LC is correlated with IQ to a big degree:

The 500 points voting gap would be a really bad idea.

1: There would be a political incentive to dumb down the leaving cert to get more votes.

2: The 500 point+ lads are full of people in the 105-120 IQ range. Obviously quite intelligent, but paradoxically far easier to manipulate politically.

If you're above this range, then you're more likely to be ostracized by the above group and get massive cognitive dissonance from all these contradictions in your head.

If you're below this range, you're more likely to see what is just right in front of you and just go with that.

You have 500+ lads voting only, and you get D4 Fintan O Toole Sunday Independent reading benny politics all over the country, which would be a fecking disaster.

Trolly post noted though. IQ is a uncomfortable, dark, topic to talk about, but it is an extremely powerful and predictive and useful scientific concept.

As Jordan Peterson said in that linked video: throw out IQ and you might as well throw out all of psychology.

Pwindedd

Pray tell Marcus how do you envisage assessing voting eligibility for all those entitled to vote, yet who undertook their education in other countries? I've 8 GCSEs. 2 Bs, 4Cs, 2Ds, A level English lit - am I in? I don't earn much though. But I've an IQ in and around 140. Vote or not ? Oh wait I do watch keeping up with the Kardashians on the odd occasion. I'm out I reckon. But I can do really complicated VLOOKUPS. Back in ?

marcus001

storker wrote: »

This is so wrong that I am seriously doubting your own intelligence. Even more so that at the start of the thread...

It is a fact that university grades are highly correlated with IQ and industriousness. I'm not sure if the same is said to be true of secondary school grades but I'm sure that any study into that would be highly controversial.

Ulysses Gaze

marcus001 wrote: »

Its not a perfect measure but its the best one we have. Not many people who get below 500 could be considered "smart".

There are a lot of people who get 500 points in the Leaving that are book smart, but are some of the dumbest people you will meet in terms of making everyday decisions.

Anyway, the Leaving Cert is an exercise in Rote learning with little room for creativity.

marcus001

DuMorph wrote: »

How did you do in English?

English was one of my best subjects so no prizes for guessing.

pjohnson

Most shocking part of the thread is OP is NOT a new account!

marcus001

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

There are a lot of people who get 500 points in the Leaving that are book smart, but are some of the dumbest people you will meet in terms of making everyday decisions.

I wouldn't say its a lot. There are always a few who come across that way but its like 1 in 20 at best. The rest are fairly sharp individuals and can hold a conversation at a high level.

Ulysses Gaze

marcus001 wrote: »

I wouldn't say its a lot. There are always a few who come across that way but its like 1 in 20 at best. The rest are fairly sharp individuals and can hold a conversation at a high level.

And I have met many people that have not gotten 500 points in the Leaving that would also be fairly sharp individuals that can hold a conversation at a high level.

As I said, the Leaving Cert is no indicator of this as it is a pure rote learning exercise.

marcus001

VinLieger wrote: »

Its got nothing to woth intelligence and is to do with reproducong the answer exactly as told.

Someone with no understanding of the subjects but had an iedetic memory could walk in and get 600 points.

The leaving cert is not a grade for intelligence also your elitism is pretty fcking disgusting

It has nothing to do with intelligence he says. Then why do all the intelligent hard working people do well and all the slow slackers do poorly?

pjohnson

Got less than 500pts in the leaving but got a Masters from NUIG. That really blows this utopian intellectual system to ****r.

marcus001

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

And I have met many people that have not gotten 500 points in the Leaving that would also be fairly sharp individuals that can hold a conversation at a high level.

As I said, the Leaving Cert is no indicator of this as it is a pure rote learning exercise.

Not really. Things like maths and accounting are more about practice and skill, intelligent people get more out of practice.

When it comes to memorisation, intelligent people can memorise more information in a shorter span of time and can crystallise far more complex knowledge.

Sunny Disposition

The Leaving Cert is done by 17 and 18 year olds who know almost nothing about the real world! How you do in it means virtually nothing. There are idiots with great leaving Certs and very intelligent people who did very poorly, that's the reality and anyone who has seen a bit of life knows it.
It no more says anything about an adult than how they did in their sixth class tests does!

Ulysses Gaze

marcus001 wrote: »

Not really. Things like maths and accounting are more about practice and skill, intelligent people get more out of practice.

When it comes to memorisation, intelligent people can memorise more information in a shorter span of time and can crystallise far more complex knowledge.

I was ****e at maths in the Leaving but waltzed through both Accountancy and Business Finance in University. Scored 1.1's in both. And this was University years ago before the grade inflation.

I didn't get 500 in the Leaving. Not even close.

I have a a couple of Masters Degrees and a Diploma in SQL programming as well.

Should I not be allowed vote?

marcus001

marcus001 wrote: »

Yes but once you start to get into the millions the difference in income starts to become more about connections and being in the right place at the right time than just pure brains.

To make these connections you need a certain amount of intelligence and street smarts.

Anyway this is a pointless argument. The leaving cert is an absolute grind. Too much is made of it. For those who do very well its a vanity trap, for those who dont its not the end of the world.

gordongekko

LittleMuppet wrote: »

I got below 500 in the LC and I've got a degree in Chemistry. I don't consider myself a brainbox but I'm no thick. My OH didn't even do his leaving yet he's very successful in his chosen career so less of the generalising please. Ireland is a democracy and all Irish citizens over 18 are entitled to vote, whether YOU like it or not.

Are all the people who got less than 500 points as touchy about it as you are?

Omackeral

One of the core subjects of the LC is Irish. For all intents and purposes and checking romance at the door, it's a dead language in the 21st century. It's functionless these days in the working world, let's be honest. And here we are as a society putting all this stock into the Leaving Cert when a near useless tongue is one of the key mandatory examinations.

I say this as a person who took Higher Level Irish at Leaving Cert and would be semi-fluent speaking it and have somewhat of a fondness for it.

Spider Web

Spider Web wrote: »

You could have been realistic and used 400 points but no, straight to the obvious wind-up number. Must try harder.

400 points is an excellent score on the leaving cert tbf but i know plenty who have got north of 400 that failed college the following year. I done quite shíte myself to be honest but ive now achieved a full degree and postgrad. Also such an absurd notion of needing 500 points on the leaving cert to vote is an insult to the many parents (some of whom never even went to secondary school) who worked hard all their lives to put their children in a position where they can get 500 points on the leaving cert

Intelligence is a more multi layered concept then the OP thinks.

Omackeral

Omackeral wrote: »

One of the core subjects of the LC is Irish. For all intents and purposes and checking romance at the door, it's a dead language in the 21st century. It's functionless these days in the working world, let's be honest. And here we are as a society putting all this stock into the Leaving Cert when a near useless tongue is one of the key mandatory examinations.

I say this as a person who took Higher Level Irish at Leaving Cert and would be semi-fluent speaking it and have somewhat of a fondness for it.

I agree with this. Actually perhaps if it was taken off the curriculum and more emphasis on nurture and enjoying learning the language it could be actually fun to learn.

vegetables

marcus001 wrote: »

Its not a perfect measure but its the best one we have. Not many people who get below 500 could be considered "smart".

''Should people who got less than 500 points in the leaving even allowed to vote?''

You not english good. No vote you.

pumpkin4life

Another problem with using the leaving cert as a voter proxy:

Fluid intelligence and crystalized intelligence tends to peak at around 25 years old or so, latter for crystal. For some people, (men more than women apparently) it peaks at around 30 or so. So the cut off point could be far too early for a lot of people. Same thing for work ethic/consciousness according to the big five etc.

Ficheall

I got more than 500 points in the Leaving. I have more important things to think about than which crooks I would prefer to run the country.

Badly Drunk Boy

marcus001 wrote: »

High intelligence is correlated with higher income but the average wage for someone with an IQ of 115 is still no more than 50,000 as far as I know. Once you start getting into higher figures the correlation is not as strong between intelligence and income.

Higher income isn't what everybody wants. I did the Leaving 26 years ago, I think the second or third year a version of the current points system started, and I got in the 400s. I got a C in Pass English, even though I know I've a better grasp of the language than most friends who did well in Honours English.

I've also got an IQ in the 140s but an income in the higher €40,000s (but I don't live in Dublin so I've just paid off my mortgage a week ago). Money doesn't bother me. I'm not a superficial social climber who needs to show how great I am, and I don't want a career path that I have to follow. If I'm in the same position when I retire, that's grand. If I decide to change, that's grand too.

I've often been told in work that I'm wasted in the job I do, but I think part of my job is to educate others (and I'm very easy-going and tolerant with people, making it easier for them to learn). Isn't it a pity you don't deem me worthy of a vote? (I know you're just trolling, though.)

qwerty ui op

So you'd have millionaires, CEOs, past and current ministers not quiet making the grade yet 16/17 year old boy and girls are best to decide for all of us.

myshirt

Our schooling system was designed for and conceived in a different age. We organise our children on factory lines, by date of manufacture. Not by ability mix or diversity. We ring bells. We tell them no cogging, despite knowing when they get out in the real world they have to work together. We send them home for not wearing shoes we would like to see. We teach boring subjects that do not appeal to their spirit, we cause them to disengage. We drug them with Ritilin. We do not develop their curiosity or ability to critically think. We just stick the paw out for more money and say f#ck you to the younger teachers. We want our lump sums. We want our pensions. All while others step up to fill in the gap that our education system creates and perpetuates. The good teachers in the system get shut down.

The system is designed to churn out civil servants. Robots. Idiots. People you have to hand hold through life. Follow step 1, follow step 2. No better example in my personal life than a revenue official on 80k a year asking me what a PPR was, or countless times as a solicitor when I volunteered to help welfare recipients out the absolute clowns I met at the higher echelons of the Department who hadn't a clue. Seriously and genuinely overpaid. It's rampant. Gardai in court much worse.

The people who are the most "successful" in this schooling system go on to be University Professors. That is the end goal of the schooling system as it is currently designed. You get people who can, and you get people who teach and philosophise; and in recent years push this poisonous feminist agenda in our universities.

If anything op, I would nearly lean towards taking the vote from those who got 500points+. I prefer the kids who question, think, rebel, and debate. These kids who develop relationships with people and learn to box smart through life. If you were to pick one kid from your own leaving cert class who if I offered it to you you could have 20% of his income for the rest of your life, you are not always going to pick the guy who got 600 points. Ask yourself why.

There are loads of successful people out there building happy lives who done sh'te in the leaving cert. There are loads of successful people who have jobs that bear no link to what they learnt in school, bar reading, writing, and maths.

Op, do not mix up your schooling with your education. They are two different things. And do not propose taking the vote from people you see as inferior to you. You may in fact be suffering from an illusionary superiority complex where you have a metacognitive inability to realise how much of an idiot you are yourself. Go speak to a doctor.


*Disclosure, I got all A's in my Leaving Cert, but the best people I have worked with didn't.

myshirt

myshirt wrote: »

Our schooling system was designed for and conceived in a different age. We organise our children on factory lines, by date of manufacture. Not by ability mix or diversity. We ring bells. We tell them no cogging, despite knowing when they get out in the real world they have to work together. We send them home for not wearing shoes we would like to see. We teach boring subjects that do not appeal to their spirit, we cause them to disengage. We drug them with Ritilin. We do not develop their curiosity or ability to critically think. We just stick the paw out for more money and say f#ck you to the younger teachers. We want our lump sums. We want our pensions. All while others step up to fill in the gap that our education system creates and perpetuates. The good teachers in the system get shut down.

The system is designed to churn out civil servants. Robots. Idiots. People you have to hand hold through life. Follow step 1, follow step 2. No better example in my personal life than a revenue official on 80k a year asking me what a PPR was, or countless times as a solicitor when I volunteered to help welfare recipients out the absolute clowns I met at the higher echelons of the Department who hadn't a clue. Seriously and genuinely overpaid. It's rampant. Gardai in court much worse.

The people who are the most "successful" in this schooling system go on to be University Professors. That is the end goal of the schooling system as it is currently designed. You get people who can, and you get people who teach and philosophise; and in recent years push this poisonous feminist agenda in our universities.

If anything op, I would nearly lean towards taking the vote from those who got 500points+. I prefer the kids who question, think, rebel, and debate. These kids who develop relationships with people and learn to box smart through life. If you were to pick one kid from your own leaving cert class who if I offered it to you you could have 20% of his income for the rest of your life, you are not always going to pick the guy who got 600 points. Ask yourself why.

There are loads of successful people out there building happy lives who done sh'te in the leaving cert. There are loads of successful people who have jobs that bear no link to what they learnt in school, bar reading, writing, and maths.

Op, do not mix up your schooling with your education. They are two different things. And do not propose taking the vote from people you see as inferior to you. You may in fact be suffering from an illusionary superiority complex where you have a metacognitive inability to realise how much of an idiot you are yourself. Go speak to a doctor.


*Disclosure, I got all A's in my Leaving Cert, but the best people I have worked with didn't.

Someone has been watching Ken Robinson videos

Honestly though, your spot on.

OneOfThem Stumbled

marcus001 wrote: »

It is a fact that university grades are highly correlated with IQ and industriousness. I'm not sure if the same is said to be true of secondary school grades but I'm sure that any study into that would be highly controversial.

I've got a 1.1 degree at university, but barely managed 400 points in the Leaving Certificate. I'm not sure your initial proposition is a good one.

NinjaTruncs

OP why set the threshold at 500 points? Why not 600, people who get 600 points have clearly worked harder and by your reasoning are more intelligent than those who get 500. Should the subjects one does be considered too? Are people who do Maths, Applied Maths, Physics or Chemistry more worthy than those from Art or Music?

However, you are falling into the same all trap almost everyone, which perhaps highlights you're not worthy to vote, you're coming with a solution to a problem, if it is a problem, without first clearly defining the problem. Perhaps that's simply the nature of the internet, and particularly AH, if you actually wanted a discussion on your idea you would have put this thread into the politics forum.

trixiebust

Why are the majority of the threads here clickbaity nonsense? Maybe I should start a thread asking the same

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

marcus001 wrote: »

Its not a perfect measure but its the best one we have. Not many people who get below 500 could be considered "smart".

That's an absurd notion. By today's points system, I had below 500 points. I now have a Masters and Doctorates. Should I have been barred from voting all these years?
Educational achievement is by no means a measure of intelligence, ability nor suitability to decide on the fate of our country. Indeed, many are educated beyond their intelligence.

irishgrover

Why are we even feeding this stupidity by debating it as if it has any merit. The op is clearly trolling, if not, he is clearly suffering from some form of retardation...

ressem

The Seanad is formed to follow this model, as a limiter on government elected through the popular vote + the subsequent horsetrading.
6 senators are elected by university graduates. Is there evidence to suggest that their contributions outshine their peers?
They seem a mixed bag.

I'd suggest that excessive party loyalty is more problematic than their leaving cert score. That applies to voters and candidates.
University based political activists around the world can be seen supporting the whole gamut of extreme politics, all of which would be hurtful to put into effect.

jamesbere

irishgrover wrote: »

Why are we even feeding this stupidity by debating it as if it has any merit. The op is clearly trolling, if not, he is clearly suffering from some form of retardation...

I'd say he thinks he's better than most people.

Spider Web

myshirt wrote: »

Our schooling system was designed for and conceived in a different age. We organise our children on factory lines, by date of manufacture. Not by ability mix or diversity. We ring bells. We tell them no cogging, despite knowing when they get out in the real world they have to work together. We send them home for not wearing shoes we would like to see. We teach boring subjects that do not appeal to their spirit, we cause them to disengage. We drug them with Ritilin. We do not develop their curiosity or ability to critically think. We just stick the paw out for more money and say f#ck you to the younger teachers. We want our lump sums. We want our pensions. All while others step up to fill in the gap that our education system creates and perpetuates. The good teachers in the system get shut down.

The system is designed to churn out civil servants. Robots. Idiots. People you have to hand hold through life. Follow step 1, follow step 2. No better example in my personal life than a revenue official on 80k a year asking me what a PPR was, or countless times as a solicitor when I volunteered to help welfare recipients out the absolute clowns I met at the higher echelons of the Department who hadn't a clue. Seriously and genuinely overpaid. It's rampant. Gardai in court much worse.

The people who are the most "successful" in this schooling system go on to be University Professors. That is the end goal of the schooling system as it is currently designed. You get people who can, and you get people who teach and philosophise; and in recent years push this poisonous feminist agenda in our universities.

If anything op, I would nearly lean towards taking the vote from those who got 500points+. I prefer the kids who question, think, rebel, and debate. These kids who develop relationships with people and learn to box smart through life. If you were to pick one kid from your own leaving cert class who if I offered it to you you could have 20% of his income for the rest of your life, you are not always going to pick the guy who got 600 points. Ask yourself why.

There are loads of successful people out there building happy lives who done sh'te in the leaving cert. There are loads of successful people who have jobs that bear no link to what they learnt in school, bar reading, writing, and maths.

Op, do not mix up your schooling with your education. They are two different things. And do not propose taking the vote from people you see as inferior to you. You may in fact be suffering from an illusionary superiority complex where you have a metacognitive inability to realise how much of an idiot you are yourself. Go speak to a doctor.


*Disclosure, I got all A's in my Leaving Cert, but the best people I have worked with didn't.

Few digs at the public sector, a mention of the feminist agenda, and a dash of reverse snobbery, not to mention some good old "I'm different though, it's others who are stupid" elements.

And extra points for misuse of "we".

Good going.

pumpkin4life

Spider Web wrote: »

Few digs at the public sector, a mention of the feminist agenda, and a dash of reverse snobbery, not to mention some good old "I'm different though, it's others who are stupid" elements.

And extra points for misuse of "we".

Good going.

No he's right.

The school system we have here and in Europe is a relatively new invention; stemming from Prussia in the 1850s, where the intent was to make the sons of factory workers better factory workers.

You're not meant to learn really in Irish education. You're meant to be put into this system whereby you become compatible with office work, university work and public sector work: ie, go along to get along and be compatible with "respectable" society and vote for Fianna Fail/Fianna Gael and watch the All Ireland Final and read Fintan o Toole for the next bit of cutting edge analysis on society.

Is that a bad thing? Depends. Possibly, possibly not.

As for the feminist agenda: that's a bit bum alright. I think it's more the fact that as more women join your organization, the more go along to get along it becomes.

Gunmonkey

jamesbere wrote: »

I'd say he thinks he's better than most people.

More likely the past 2-3 weeks of his Mammy going "Oh Marcus001 is so smart, he got 500 points in the LC!" to everyone she knows has inflated his little ego.

Either that or...have the colleges started up again? Usually the first week or two you get the likes of these, kids who have their first class of philosophy or social science and now think they are the next Socrates or Nitzsche and know how to solve all the worlds ills!

Wanderer2010

The OP isn't so smart him/herself seeing as they left out the word "be" in the title.

Just for that OP, I am judging you forevermore as an inferior and intellectual reject who can never contribute anything positive towards society.

jamesbere

Gunmonkey wrote: »

More likely the past 2-3 weeks of his Mammy going "Oh Marcus001 is so smart, he got 500 points in the LC!" to everyone she knows has inflated his little ego.

Either that or...have the colleges started up again? Usually the first week or two you get the likes of these, kids who have their first class of philosophy or social science and now think they are the next Socrates or Nitzsche and know how to solve all the worlds ills!

Wasn't Nietzsche in love with his sister

Spider Web

pumpkin4life wrote: »

No he's right.

The school system we have here and in Europe is a relatively new invention; stemming from Prussia in the 1850s, where the intent was to make the sons of factory workers better factory workers.

You're not meant to learn really in Irish education. You're meant to be put into this system whereby you become compatible with office work, university work and public sector work: ie, go along to get along and be compatible with "respectable" society and vote for Fianna Fail/Fianna Gael and watch the All Ireland Final and read Fintan o Toole for the next bit of cutting edge analysis on society.

Is that a bad thing? Depends. Possibly, possibly not.

As for the feminist agenda: that's a bit bum alright. I think it's more the fact that as more women join your organization, the more go along to get along it becomes.

I don't know whether it's right or wrong - what I do know is it's having a go at the public sector/teachers and it contains reverse snobbery nonsense like "I would nearly lean towards taking the vote from those who got 500points+" despite the fact that HE got 500 points, so HE complied with this system of which he is so critical... but he's different of course.

It's an arrogant post like the opening post, just coming from a different angle.

People overthink the education system - I'm not sure we are as easily programmed as some like to say. There are the provincial, very conformist societies still, but it's a combination of factors that are holding these up, not just the education system.

spurious

Depends when they did the Leaving.

mynamejeff

ever read the novel starship troopers? and to a lesser extent watch the film

the premise is that citizenship has to be earned.
anyone over 18 can try for it but you must complete a term of national service be it military, social care or some hazardous nationally beneficial duty.
Only then can it be seen that you have the benefit of the many over self benefit and is suitable for inclusion in a democratic process.

Its an interesting book right wing in nature corporal punishment is used and personal responsibility is a very important concept.

i didn't get 500 points but i know plenty of people who did that shouldn't be allowed to vote.