ASTI CEC recommends members rejects LR 2. 9th Sept 2017

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Look lads and Lassies-effectively ye are just talking to yourselves here. Its largely an echo chamber for the no voters. I think you would be more effective campaigning elsewhere. The vote will be a huge YES. I take no pride in that but spending your time critiquing one Yes voter is a waste!

Even if the emboldened bit were true, that is a problem just how? Is the Internet not a place where basically people can express opinions regardless of who reads,agrees or disagrees with them?

And I don't agree with you. Firstly, I personally have campaigned elsewhere. Secondly, any public medium is good. Just because people don't post comments doesn't mean they're not reading. And just because people are only reading doesn't mean they're not being influenced in how to vote. Just look at the number of hits to this thread and you will see that there are way more passive readers than active contributors. And nothing wrong with that.

All you have to do is stop reading and posting if you're no longer interested. Just let the rest of us get on with it! You were the same about the February ballot. Predicting a Yes and your predictions turned out to be wrong and you were calling the thread a support group for union addicts. I'm sorry but you're showing the same patronising attitude this time and it grates. You may well be right that it will be a Yes but as yet we just don't know and can only speculate.

What I think is hugely important here is that there are loads of young teachers out there who are totally demoralised and praying for a No in the hope that something might be done.Don't forget that up to the recession teaching was a nice middle class profession where you could afford to buy a house, run a car, go on holidays, have a social life, whether you were married or single. My generation regarded that as an unquestionable right and reward for our university education,qualifications and hard work in our jobs.

Not only do the present generation of young teachers have better qualifications but the work now is much harder and to add insult to injury they have to penny pinch in a way we never had to in order to make their meagre incomes pay their modest bills. Forget the house, the car and the holidays! These young teachers won't even be able to afford rent in the cities.

So that is what all this is about and it is a major deal to them. Just count yourself lucky, as I do, that you're not one of them. And please let us talk to ourselves if we want to on this thread!

SligoBrewer

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Look lads and Lassies-effectively ye are just talking to yourselves here. Its largely an echo chamber for the no voters. I think you would be more effective campaigning elsewhere. The vote will be a huge YES. I take no pride in that but spending your time critiquing one Yes voter is a waste!

Thanks for selling me and thousands of others out.
I hope you enjoy whatever it is you want from this deal, because I can't even see what is on offer. I'd go down the thirty pieces of silver route, but I can't even see a shilling on offer.

MrJones1973

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Thanks for selling me and thousands of others out.
I hope you enjoy whatever it is you want from this deal, because I can't even see what is on offer. I'd go down the thirty pieces of silver route, but I can't even see a shilling on offer.

Without strikes on the agenda there is no hope for lpts. Get real. The union balked at that about three times from Nov to may last year. You remind me of various political groups who were never really serious about political power but just liked the smugness of opposition..
I'd go out for a couple of weeks but given that even a one day strike won't happen what exactly do you see happening after a no vote ?? We deny lpts a CID for what? Because without a strike nothing will happen. I repeat nothing

Seriously what's your plan ? Just Ian Paisley like keep saying no and hope for the best? Even that bastard did a deal with his enemies and worked the system .
If given a vote that includes a strike I will vote Yes but otherwise im not into token protests
I'm a useful lightening rod for your anger but you must see some of my post as accurate otherwise you are delusional
I would prefer to work the system because without a strike there is no alternative
Give me your plan

MrJones1973

As for the woe is me element of the lpt generation : newsflash. Life was always tough in your 20s. Most of my generation didn't get a car until their late 20s. Had substandard accommodation without heating or TV. We didn't have CID contracts . They didn't exist. Getting a mortgage was impossible but then banks lent us exorbitant amounts of money. We paid higher taxes .Many of us foolishly took loans. We share our part of that mess. Some of us emmigrated. Our lives destroyed. Suicides and marital breakdowns
Those who made it through that mess are prepared to strike for those below us but don't beat your chests and claim we had it easy

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

As for the woe is me element of the lpt generation : newsflash. Life was always tough in your 20s. Most of my generation didn't get a car until their late 20s. Had substandard accommodation without heating or TV. We didn't have CID contracts . They didn't exist. Getting a mortgage was impossible but then banks lent us exorbitant amounts of money. We paid higher taxes .Many of us foolishly took loans. We share our part of that mess. Some of us emmigrated. Our lives destroyed. Suicides and marital breakdowns
Those who made it through that mess are prepared to strike for those below us but don't beat your chests and claim we had it easy

Higher taxes? Taxes were very high in the eighties. They steadily came down after that. The PDs were in Govt for a good few years and they were the party of the low taxes mantra. Taxes stayed low all through the noughties until the crash and we also enjoyed good pay for a few years back then. Nowadays you have the USC to contend with as well as the pension levy. So I would say that taxes are a lot worse now and the cost of living is gone crazy again.

We didn't always have it easy, that's true. But we certainly had it a lot easier then today's young teachers.

Sir123

I'm finding this forum extremely negative as of late. It's true for what special convention was all about as previously mentioned, me and money.

At the end of the day, we all have to look after ourselves, but looking after our profession is also very important and somehow neglected in thought by Yes voters in my opinion.

I am going to tune out of this forum until Wednesday evening when I'll be hoping for a NO vote.

Good look to you all and remember, try and do the right thing for teaching in this country. Think about all those years you have down the line or for new and recent entrants, the lengthly career itself. Erosion of pay & conditions is continuing to occur. It must be stopped. It can't without a stance from everyone together.

MrJones1973

acequion wrote: »

Higher taxes? Taxes were very high in the eighties. They steadily came down after that. The PDs were in Govt for a good few years and they were the party of the low taxes mantra. Taxes stayed low all through the noughties until the crash and we also enjoyed good pay for a few years back then. Nowadays you have the USC to contend with as well as the pension levy. So I would say that taxes are a lot worse now and the cost of living is gone crazy again.

We didn't always have it easy, that's true. But we certainly had it a lot easier then today's young teachers.

We can really only speak for ourselves about whether it was more or less difficult than todays young teachers . Personally I think things were worse. Most of my generation carrying large negative equity mortgages

SligoBrewer

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Without strikes on the agenda there is no hope for lpts. Get real. The union balked at that about three times from Nov to may last year. You remind me of various political groups who were never really serious about political power but just liked the smugness of opposition..
I'd go out for a couple of weeks but given that even a one day strike won't happen what exactly do you see happening after a no vote ?? We deny lpts a CID for what? Because without a strike nothing will happen. I repeat nothing

Seriously what's your plan ? Just Ian Paisley like keep saying no and hope for the best? Even that bastard did a deal with his enemies and worked the system .
If given a vote that includes a strike I will vote Yes but otherwise im not into token protests
I'm a useful lightening rod for your anger but you must see some of my post as accurate otherwise you are delusional
I would prefer to work the system because without a strike there is no alternative
Give me your plan

Truth hurts. You voted for an agreement that has a second class pay system as acceptable. You are standing by the PSSA and saying "Yup, I'll have that".

My plan? Stand beside our sister unions and activists who have finally got procedures on our side, not screw them over at the last minute by taking the ball and heading home. Then see what happens. Any hope of co-ordination is gone with a yes vote, and can you imagine how it looks?

You'll finally have actually sold us out, because it hasn't happened by a democratic vote of the membership yet. It'll be thrown at every General Secretary and Union Rep to appear on radio. The ASTI will definitely be the union of the old, and the TUI the union of the new.

Honestly, I've over 30+ years of this profession left. I'm not going to work here if my government won't pay me right, my colleagues won't stand up to help me and my working conditions get eroded year after year while house ownership gets further and further out of reach. You may not fancy a few token strike days, I don't fancy a token paycheque.

I don't care what generation had it worse and I'm not going to make an argument for mine because that's petty and exactly what Paschal wants. We all are workers with lives and futures. Stand together ffs.

Nellieelephant

Stand together is right. No “ifs buts or maybes”,no what’s the plan, we were on our own, etc.Stand together. What is right is right, end of. There is NO right in the PSSA, you are voting for inequality. I work just as hard as you, tired of people on solo run. A union should be a team game.

MrJones1973

So plan is? What exactly ? A few token days ? Hope for the best then. Where was ballot over industrial action? Look I do hope if this is defeated we move quickly to industrial action otherwise a no vote is pointless . You can vent your spleen against one yes voter all you like but I would advise you to formulate aplan in your head for next stage otherwise you can be acussed of being simplistic .fail to plan plan to fail

deiseindublin

Not sure what the age profile is here but I'm in my early/mid 40s and it was never anything as hard as it is now since I started. We thought we had it hard looking for a house to rent for 3 full weeks, got full hours within a year of coming out, no CP hours, no s&s, better sick leave scheme.

deiseindublin

Double post.

MrJones1973

Bottom line is there is no plan no matter what the outcome is Wednesday. No roadmap and that must be annoying to the no voters in particular. Don't trust the other unions . Deal in-house first before throwing stones at others
The removal of most of SC should be a priority for a start to your typical no voter

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Bottom line is there is no plan no matter what the outcome is Wednesday. No roadmap and that must be annoying to the no voters in particular. Don't trust the other unions . Deal in-house first before throwing stones at others
The removal of most of SC should be a priority for a start to your typical no voter

Remove most of the SC!!! So it's all their fault now is it?

And why would the No voter have an issue with the SC? And why would they be frustrated with no roadmap, this famous roadmap you keep harping on an on about. Is it not the Yes voters who would be frustrated there hence voting yes! The no voter has an issue primarily with the agreement and the employer, hardly with the union.

Sorry mrwhite but your posts keep on getting dafter and dafter and you keep banging on about the same thing. I wouldn't even have bothered with a reply but your argument about the SC makes no sense whatsoever. The union is split down the middle and that was reflected in the last vote, is reflected on SC and on CEC where the yes and no supporters are roughly half and half. Which half prevails this time, we'll know on Wednesday. But one thing is certain and that is that the result won't stop the divisions.

I don't feel like arguing any more about this so won't be posting again until after the result.

evolving_doors

ya shur, probably a good time to put things on ice.
Keep in mind when the result is out there probably won't be 'a plan' announced for yonks. So let's not kill each other over it... just yet:)
Come to think of it they might extend the closing date cos of weather/post.
Please don't start a new one specifically to do with this ballot.
Thanks.
Thread / topic is in the vault.
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