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ASTI CEC recommends members rejects LR 2. 9th Sept 2017

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    #32
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    massive no vote by TUI

    81% to 19%


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    #33
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    Great news, fair play to them!! ASTI can't not reject it now after those two huge No's.


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    #34
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    It's actually 87% to 13% to reject the agreement and 81% to 19% for industrial action. But turnout only 52%.


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    #35
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Leila Worried Thief wrote: »
    It's actually 87% to 13% to reject the agreement and 81% to 19% for industrial action. But turnout only 52%.

    Only 52% means 45% of all tui members are against, that's pretty strong considering the split tween 3rd and 2nd level.


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    #36
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    acequion wrote: »
    Great news, fair play to them!! ASTI can't not reject it now after those two huge No's.
    Bruton out of the traps

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0914/904665-pay-deal/


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    #37
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    Interesting times ahead.


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    #38
    dory
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,501 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    It's all very confusing.

    If we reject it it'll still be passed by the majority of unions...so we'll just be outside the pay deal again. I don't see the government's incentive to engage with us. They could leave the three unions outside the deal and they'd be happy out. No pay rise for us. Looks like industrial action is imminent.


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    #39
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    dory wrote: »
    It's all very confusing.

    If we reject it it'll still be passed by the majority of unions...so we'll just be outside the pay deal again. I don't see the government's incentive to engage with us. They could leave the three unions outside the deal and they'd be happy out. No pay rise for us. Looks like industrial action is imminent.
    All 3 unions agree to a 4 day week until further notice, its a small enough hit to pocket considering its taxed at marginal rate, but the cost to exchequer for having primary parents having to find childcare for one extra day would focus minds.


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    #40
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    All 3 unions agree to a 4 day week until further notice, its a small enough hit to pocket considering its taxed at marginal rate, but the cost to exchequer for having primary parents having to find childcare for one extra day would focus minds.

    Completely agree. If the three unions can stick it out together and go for the jugglar there's bound to be a result. This is the best chance we've had in years, with all three on the same wavelength. We just can't mess this one up!

    You'll get the usual threats form bully boy Bruton and co. And they are bad bastards capable of anything as we well know, but no way can they afford to ignore the entire 1st and 2nd level teaching body.

    What a spineless bunch the other unions though! I was very confident starting out that this deal would get rejected like CP1 way back at the start. Then we were in the midst of recession yet people had balls. Now we're in growth and off they all go like simpering lambs to the slaughter.

    Any hope the nurses might reject? They have every reason to be as pyssed off by the whole thing as we teachers are. Even more so so it beggars belief that they'll go for this though that's what Doran wants.


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    #41
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    acequion wrote: »
    Completely agree. If the three unions can stick it out together and go for the jugglar there's bound to be a result. This is the best chance we've had in years, with all three on the same wavelength. We just can't mess this one up!

    You'll get the usual threats form bully boy Bruton and co. And they are bad bastards capable of anything as we well know, but no way can they afford to ignore the entire 1st and 2nd level teaching body.

    What a spineless bunch the other unions though! I was very confident starting out that this deal would get rejected like CP1 way back at the start. Then we were in the midst of recession yet people had balls. Now we're in growth and off they all go like simpering lambs to the slaughter.

    Any hope the nurses might reject? They have every reason to be as pyssed off by the whole thing as we teachers are. Even more so so it beggars belief that they'll go for this though that's what Doran wants.

    Florence nightingale effect, nurses won't do anything to ruin it. Expect big fat yes.


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    #42
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    All 3 unions agree to a 4 day week until further notice, its a small enough hit to pocket considering its taxed at marginal rate, but the cost to exchequer for having primary parents having to find childcare for one extra day would focus minds.

    There's no need for any of that yet. We're covered under LRA for the other pay elements and are still cooperating with all of it.

    I think we need to get past the CP hours and focus on the differential pay scale and the punitive elements for anyone with a bit of service and a post who will get creased by this pension thing. Leo is all mouth about incentivising work and aspiration. God forbid anyone would aspire to the top of the payscale or a POR or even worse Management!!

    If they're afraid of pay equalisation then we should go after a,training allowance or a scheme to fund the PME with the condition that you must teach for x years or have to pay or something.

    Last part is rambling but we need to get our fingers out and come up with solutions.


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    #43
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    man_no_plan wrote: »
    There's no need for any of that yet. We're covered under LRA for the other pay elements and are still cooperating with all of it.

    I think we need to get past the CP hours and focus on the differential pay scale and the punitive elements for anyone with a bit of service and a post who will get creased by this pension thing. Leo is all mouth about incentivising work and aspiration. God forbid anyone would aspire to the top of the payscale or a POR or even worse Management!!

    If they're afraid of pay equalisation then we should go after a,training allowance or a scheme to fund the PME with the condition that you must teach for x years or have to pay or something.

    Last part is rambling but we need to get our fingers out and come up with solutions.

    No we have to get pay parity man-no -plan. The two tier scale is demeaning to the profession so we have to get things back to default. I agree that we're probably screwed with CP for the foreseeable future so that's why I think we should single mindedly go after this. One of the big mistakes of the ASTI campaign last year and many of you guys in TUI would have cautioned us, was fighting too many wars at once.


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    #44
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    acequion wrote: »
    No we have to get pay parity man-no -plan. The two tier scale is demeaning to the profession so we have to get things back to default. I agree that we're probably screwed with CP for the foreseeable future so that's why I think we should single mindedly go after this. One of the big mistakes of the ASTI campaign last year and many of you guys in TUI would have cautioned us, was fighting too many wars at once.

    I was one of them! But we know they will say that if they agree to deal with teacher pay then they will gave to deal with the entire PS.

    I'm only saying that, if it cones to it, we should possibly have an alternative that has the same net effect that is unique to teachers. Teachers, after all, are the only group that require a masters qualification for entry.

    As I said, I was only rambling and that idea isn't fully fleshed out and maybe would never work. But we know what the govt response will be so we should be ready for it.

    I wholeheartedly agree that pay equalisation should be the number one priority. It's the reason it was rejected by TUI, INTO and, soon hopefully, ASTI.

    After that we are into a campaign of some sort that has to inflict damage but we need to be seen to be looking for resolution rather than strikes off the bat for the sake of it.

    For once, at least, we are all on the same page here! Long may it continue.


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    #45
    dory
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,501 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    I'm all for pay parity but I feel the PME may have messed that up for us. Now every new entrant will have a masters so all the government see are dollar signs.


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    #46
    Alqua
    Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭Alqua


    School resources would have to be cut if teachers want equal pay for equal work - Minister

    ...Wow


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    #47
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    man_no_plan wrote: »
    I was one of them! But we know they will say that if they agree to deal with teacher pay then they will have to deal with the entire PS...[].

    They didn't say that for Gardai concessions though.


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    #48
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    At the moment Im voting Yes to LR2. I hope TUI go out and get screwed money wise. Particularly the 1000 ASTI members who jumped ship. ASTI wont strike so why bother? Nor will the TUI from what I hear. Grand old Duke of Yprk etc etc

    Now if the ASTI puts up a credible plan to members perhaps I might vote No but I dont see that happening after the events last year.

    A 2-3 week strike is only thing Gov would be scared off. Particularly Primary schools but I dont see that happening either.
    Call me a cynical old fool or a realist. Take your pick.


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    #49
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    They didn't say that for Gardai concessions though.

    The country can function without teachers it can't without Gardaí


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    #50
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Alqua wrote: »
    School resources would have to be cut if teachers want equal pay for equal work - Minister

    ...Wow
    Why is parity so important now when unions voted to accept the lack of it in 2011?


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    #51
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    The country can function without teachers it can't without Gardaí

    So wholl be doing your babysitting if the teachers are on strike?


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    #52
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    So wholl be doing your babysitting if the teachers are on strike?

    The same people who did it during the last failed strike?


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    #53
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Why is parity so important now when unions voted to accept the lack of it in 2011?

    Which vote was this?


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    #54
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    Which vote was this?

    Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't teacher unions/teacher agree to paying new teachers less?


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    #55
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't teacher unions/teacher agree to paying new teachers less?

    So your interpretation of events was that teachers were handed a simple ballot which said 'do you support new teachers being paid less, Yes No ?'. And majority of teachers voted yes, so the govt. went ahead and did it.


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    #56
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    km79 wrote: »
    Oh lord so very close to conceding twice
    Would have been grobb assist for both

    My only wildcard changes today were grobb out for Ritchie Daniels in for kolasinic !
    That would not have been a pleasant goal

    Ahhh different stadium methinks!


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    #57
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    So your interpretation of events was that teachers were handed a simple ballot which said 'do you support new teachers being paid less, Yes No ?'. And majority of teachers voted yes, so the govt. went ahead and did it.

    Nope. My interpretation of events is that teachers agreed to it several years ago when it served their own interests.

    But you clarify how we got to the current situation?


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    #58
    Chilli Con Kearney
    Registered Users Posts: 301 ✭✭Chilli Con Kearney


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Nope. My interpretation of events is that teachers agreed to it several years ago when it served their own interests.

    But you clarify how we got to the current situation?

    My understanding of this is that teachers voted to accept a collective agreement, ie croke park 1. This was then followed by a circular from the government stating that they were lowering pay and removing allowances for new entrants. As part of collective agreements, you cannot strike or engage in any industrial action so that was that.

    I may be wrong and totally open to correction but I don't think teachers voted for lower pay. Perhaps somebody else will clarify for sure.


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    #59
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »
    I may be wrong and totally open to correction but I don't think teachers voted for lower pay. Perhaps somebody else will clarify for sure.

    It seems I misspoke when I said voted. When I should have said teachers accepted. Apologies.


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    #60
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »
    My understanding of this is that teachers voted to accept a collective agreement, ie croke park 1. This was then followed by a circular from the government stating that they were lowering pay and removing allowances for new entrants. As part of collective agreements, you cannot strike or engage in any industrial action so that was that.

    I may be wrong and totally open to correction but I don't think teachers voted for lower pay. Perhaps somebody else will clarify for sure.

    This is correct.


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    #61
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    At the moment Im voting Yes to LR2. I hope TUI go out and get screwed money wise. Particularly the 1000 ASTI members who jumped ship. ASTI wont strike so why bother? Nor will the TUI from what I hear. Grand old Duke of Yprk etc etc

    Now if the ASTI puts up a credible plan to members perhaps I might vote No but I dont see that happening after the events last year.

    A 2-3 week strike is only thing Gov would be scared off. Particularly Primary schools but I dont see that happening either.
    Call me a cynical old fool or a realist. Take your pick.

    Thanks for your support in the past.

    I wouldn't begrudge any of the people who jumped ship any ill will. They are low paid workers who may have needed CIDs for Mortgages, stability or any other number of reasons. We are all together, teachers and workers. Bruton is already pitting parents against us so let's not turn against our own.

    When, yes when, this comes through, the first thing I'm buying is health insurance for myself. I and the other over 3500 LPTs would like your support.

    Accepting LRA2 is bad, without a doubt. The special convention crew clamour for a plan, but all I see is a document from Government that continues to have me as a second class teacher and doesn't even get wage rises that match the rate of inflation for those on the post 2011 scale. I wouldn't even accept this if I was a selfish right wing person. It is awful.


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