ASTI CEC recommends members rejects LR 2. 9th Sept 2017

History Queen

Alqua wrote: »

School resources would have to be cut if teachers want equal pay for equal work - Minister

...Wow

I would love to know precisely what resources he is referring to here? Is it my leaking prefab perhaps? Or the carpet being held in place with insulating tape? Orthestorage heaters that work sporadically? Or the measly photocopying allowance? Or the stationary, resources and materials I buy out of my own pocket? Or maybe he means the outdated IT system barely fit for purpose and theblack bags I use on my windows because I have no blinds? Would these be the "resources" the children will have to do without?

Get down out of your ivory tower Bruton you snide, condescending, ignorant man and realise it is goodwill and desperation to hold contracts that are the actual "resources" holding many of your schools together.

Idiot.

Chilli Con Kearney

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It seems I misspoke when I said voted. When I should have said teachers accepted. Apologies.

I think that you're missing my point.

Teachers voted to go into a collective agreement. As part of this, they could not say no to further changes. After this the government cut pay. The teachers could do nothing until outside of the agreement when it had run its course.

Again, I'm open to correction, but I think that this is how it panned out.

LeinsterDub

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

I think that you're missing my point.

Teachers voted to go into a collective agreement. As part of this, they could not say no to further changes. After this the government cut pay. The teachers could do nothing until outside of the agreement when it had run its course.

Again, I'm open to correction, but I think that this is how it panned out.

They could have went on strike at the time. They've lost pay due to recent industrial action

Chilli Con Kearney

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They could have went on strike at the time. They've lost pay due to recent industrial action

But by going on strike, they'd have breached performance of a contract.

SligoBrewer

In 2009, FEMPI was brought in by FF and had pay freezes for the entire sector and a complete degradation of worker's rights. There were no negotiations with unions as far as I know.
The general unions (ICTU IMPACT etc) negotiate Croke Park in June 2010, which had a no striking clause in it. Troika arrives November 2010. This is the main gist of the Croke Park agreement.

Contingent on delivery of the savings and compliance with the Agreement, the Government gave certain commitments to serving public servants:
no further reductions in their pay rates, other than those applied in 2009 and 2010;
no compulsory redundancies (where they do not currently apply) as long as public servants are flexible about redeployment;
an extension of the period within which the January 2010 pay reductions are disregarded for the purposes of calculating pensions, now to February 2012;
a review of the position on public service pay in the Spring of each year of the Agreement.

In Budget 2010, public sector pay is cut, no mention of new entrants, teachers whatever.
January 2011, ASTI sign up to Croke Park on the second time of asking
In 2011, the Department issued new pay scales with no negotiations, just via a circular
See also here.

People give about Labour for their stance on water charges when what they did with FEMPI actually stands against everything that they are meant to believe as a party.

The ASTI, TUI and INTO could have pulled out of the agreement and striked, yes, but that would hardly have been pulling on the green jersey?
Can you imagine the backlash there would have been in 2011?

The government knew what they were doing.

LeinsterDub

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

But by going on strike, they'd have breached performance of a contract.

Like they currently are?

Chilli Con Kearney

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Like they currently are?

They are not striking now

LeinsterDub

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

They are not striking now

Did and are threatening to do so

Chilli Con Kearney

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Did and are threatening to do so

Went on strike while outside a collective agreement.

Chilli Con Kearney

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Did and are threatening to do so

Are voting no to a collective agreement

LeinsterDub

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

Went on strike while outside a collective agreement.

I don't see the point.

Chilli Con Kearney

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I don't see the point.

Well you cannot strike while within one so they did outside. Whether you are the point of it or not is irrelevant really. The members voted for it.

LeinsterDub

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

Well you cannot strike while within one so they did outside. Whether you are the point of it or not is irrelevant really. The members voted for it.

You're splitting hairs there. Of course you can't strike and remain in an agreement but of course you can go on strike and by going on strike leave said agreement.

acequion

Anyone thinking of voting yes because they don't like the TUI would want to cop on. We have a simple choice here. Align ourselves with our sister unions or sleepwalk into another insult of a deal,which doubtless will deal a few more hammer blows to the profession. Bruton's attitude last night said it all.

This is not the time to be holding on to grudges. Teachers need to stick together and demand pay parity. As usual there are no guarantees but we absolutely must give it a try. Shame on those who are too selfish,too cowardly and too defeatist to even try.

Nellieelephant

The permanent pension levy is an insult. I do think this will be a close vote,some people are annoyed that some LPTs left us when we were on strike for pay parity. The special convention also angered a lot of people, who felt their vote had been overturned. Anyway I don't know the history or politics of it but we need one post primary union, being picked off against each other like last year can't happen again. As far as I can see ICTU were of no help. So like someone else just said I think we need to forget previous issues and remember we are all teachers. Stronger together.

evolving_doors

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You're splitting hairs there. Of course you can't strike and remain in an agreement but of course you can go on strike and by going on strike leave said agreement.

Muddying the waters with 'well they should have done x,y,z back then' is just shoulda woulda coulda and derailing the current thread. The dead horse has been Flogged ad nauseum in multiple old derailed threads.

Cut to the chase, what's your position now?
A. Agree with teacher industrial action for pay parity... and give reason to support your position.
B. Disagree with teacher industrial action for pay parity... reason to support position.

paddybarry

acequion wrote: »

Anyone thinking of voting yes because they don't like the TUI would want to cop on. We have a simple choice here. Align ourselves with our sister unions or sleepwalk into another insult of a deal,which doubtless will deal a few more hammer blows to the profession. Bruton's attitude last night said it all.

This is not the time to be holding on to grudges. Teachers need to stick together and demand pay parity. As usual there are no guarantees but we absolutely must give it a try. Shame on those who are too selfish,too cowardly and too defeatist to even try.

Everyone is entitled to vote whichever way they want. Each have their own reasons for doing so. You may not like it but that's democracy. Name calling those who hold a different position to yourself is wrong and serves no purpose imho.

In my own school, vast majority of lpts are not union members. It certainly annoyed a lot of staff that they went on strike on behalf of lpts, who show no inclination to join union.

I will vote no as I believe pay inequality is wrong.

Chilli Con Kearney

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You're splitting hairs there. Of course you can't strike and remain in an agreement but of course you can go on strike and by going on strike leave said agreement.

How am I splitting hairs? Don't you understand about legal performance of a contract? Teachers and unions would be legally at risk if they strike and leave. Don't you get that? Or do you not want to get it?

LeinsterDub

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

How am I splitting hairs? Don't you understand about legal performance of a contract? Teachers and unions would be legally at risk if they strike and leave. Don't you get that? Or do you not want to get it?

Isn't illegal for Gardaí to strike? They still did so.

LeinsterDub

evolving_doors wrote: »

Muddying the waters with 'well they should have done x,y,z back then' is just shoulda woulda coulda and derailing the current thread. The dead horse has been Flogged ad nauseum in multiple old derailed threads.

Cut to the chase, what's your position now?
A. Agree with teacher industrial action for pay parity... and give reason to support your position.
B. Disagree with teacher industrial action for pay parity... reason to support position.

In many industries it's not uncommon for new entrants to be on a different pay scale.

joebloggs32

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Isn't illegal for Gardaí to strike? They still did so.

They threatened strike, but didn't actually end up going on strike. It is not illegal for them to threaten it, but it would have been illegal if they had followed through.

Chilli Con Kearney

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Isn't illegal for Gardaí to strike? They still did so.

When did they break the law and strike?

acequion

paddybarry wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to vote whichever way they want. Each have their own reasons for doing so. You may not like it but that's democracy. Name calling those who hold a different position to yourself is wrong and serves no purpose imho.

In my own school, vast majority of lpts are not union members. It certainly annoyed a lot of staff that they went on strike on behalf of lpts, who show no inclination to join union.

I will vote no as I believe pay inequality is wrong.

And you're entitled to your opinion too paddybarry. And at the end of the day voters will put the x beside where they want to put it and that's what democracy is.

However the time for being nice,reasonable or PC is long over. Our profession is in chaos,the job has become a shambles at best and a mental health hazard at worst. And why? Because teachers, like all public servants, are too mild mannered and too timid to really rock the boat and stand firm.That is the reality of the situation.

None of us like the fact that many LPTs abandoned us and even worse signed up for a special convention organised by people with their own agenda. But we now have a unique opportunity to have all teachers fight together for something that is vital for the integrity of our profession. So we must be single minded about it, put all other differences aside and unite with people who we might privately resent in pursuit of a common goal.

And anyone who won't do that is indeed selfish,cowardly, defeatist and even worse, because ultimately we will all pay for their cowardice. Too bad if you or they don't like that but it's the truth.

MrJones1973

I think firing personal insults helps anybody. Im in favor of a strike that would go on for weeks to achieve pay parity. Nothing else will achieve this. We went out for two days last year-my how the Government must have trembled:rolleyes:
I dont trust the TUI based on long experience but to be fair to them-our members also suffer from the grand old duke of york bug.

If you start Industrial action then play to win not just to make a mini flurry and then back down? I voted yes in June but that was 8 months after a ballot for Industrial action had provided nothing. After convention backed away from more strikes. Passive aggressive union?
Unless the ASTI and TUI map out a clear plan then voting No will simply lead you up the garden path-salary reductions and mass resignations. Was it Einstein who said-why expect different results from doing the same thing-or words to that effect.
I dont want a pointless salary reduction. I dont want ASTI to lose more members so we can sit on a phantom Principled throne like the Peoples front of Judea or the Judean peoples front . For those of you familiar with The life of Brian.
I dont see a Moses figure or any leader to bring us to this Pay parity Promised land.
Provide the leadership or piss off.
Failing that vote Yes
Leaving it until after the ballot to provide a plan wont wash with me.

joebloggs32

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I think firing personal insults helps anybody. Im in favor of a strike that would go on for weeks to achieve pay parity.
I dont trust the TUI based on long experience but to be fair to them-our members also suffer from the grand old duke of york bug.

If you start Industrial action then play to win not just to make a mini flurry and then back down? I voted yes in June but that was 8 months after a ballot for Industrial action had provided nothing. After convention backed away from more strikes. Passive aggressive union?
Unless the ASTI and TUI map out a clear plan then voting No will simply lead you up the garden path-salary reductions and mass resignations. Was it Einstein who said-why expect different results from doing the same thing-or words to that effect.
I dont want a pointless salary reduction. I dont want ASTI to lose more members so we can sit on a phantom Principled throne like the Peoples front of Judea or the Judean peoples front . For those of you familiar with The life of Brian.
I dont see a Moses figure or any leader to bring us to this Pay parity Promised land.
Provide the leadership or piss off.
Failing that vote Yes
Leaving it until after the ballot to provide a plan wont wash with me.

The lesson learned from last year is that teachers (and probably all other workers) can't go for a long indefinite strike. When the lock out happened the Asti almost crumbled after just two days.
The way to engage in strike action is as done by Luas and bus drivers. One day strikes spread out so that after tax most people lose only a small percentage of their pay packet.
Anyway as others have said, strike is still a good bit away. Hopefully fianna fail pull the rug from under Leo in the next six months or so. Then we could ramp up a campaign during an election to put maximum pressure on the government.

MrJones1973

Indefinite is probably unworkable but a definite commitment to ten days say spread over six months might work. I think it was the indefinite nature of the action in Nov that spooked people.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I think firing personal insults helps anybody. Im in favor of a strike that would go on for weeks to achieve pay parity. Nothing else will achieve this. We went out for two days last year-my how the Government must have trembled:rolleyes:
I dont trust the TUI based on long experience but to be fair to them-our members also suffer from the grand old duke of york bug.

If you start Industrial action then play to win not just to make a mini flurry and then back down? I voted yes in June but that was 8 months after a ballot for Industrial action had provided nothing. After convention backed away from more strikes. Passive aggressive union?
Unless the ASTI and TUI map out a clear plan then voting No will simply lead you up the garden path-salary reductions and mass resignations. Was it Einstein who said-why expect different results from doing the same thing-or words to that effect.
I dont want a pointless salary reduction. I dont want ASTI to lose more members so we can sit on a phantom Principled throne like the Peoples front of Judea or the Judean peoples front . For those of you familiar with The life of Brian.
I dont see a Moses figure or any leader to bring us to this Pay parity Promised land.
Provide the leadership or piss off.
Failing that vote Yes
Leaving it until after the ballot to provide a plan wont wash with me.

Stop trying to make excuses for yourself! If calling thousands of members selfish,cowardly,defeatist is somehow "personal" for you then fine. It's not for me. At this point I don't care about the personal, I care about the collective and what we can potentially achieve.

The ones I'm calling selfish, cowardly and defeatist are the former no voters turned yes or the ones who don't like TUI or the ones who won't let past mistakes go. Whatever their reasons they are one or all three of the above. I'm on a different planet to the yes voters but at least they're consistent.

I'd have to be kidnapped and drugged to vote yes.

acequion

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In many industries it's not uncommon for new entrants to be on a different pay scale.

Education is not an industry. And I sincerely hope it never will be.

Sir123

All I can say is that I can NO way sign up to pay inequality until 2021. It's an insult to the profession.

Out of many things wrong with the agreement, particularly the permanent pension levy, pay inequality is the most ludicrous thing to have in education.

Brutal Bruton would want to watch his mouth after TUI's vote on Thursday, immediately turning the public against teachers at all lesser paid teachers' expense, as if they are to blame. By taking what he has said, it just shows you that we are working for a tyrant that gets their way the whole time. I say No No No anyway.

MrJones1973

Ok Folks

The Past is the Past. The Future? If the ASTI and the TUI can propose a series of one day strikes u to 10 days then they have my vote. Simply asking the members to vote cart Blanche for Industrial action is not a runner given the past. You can move on but only a total idiot would forget it totally.

I would like all LPT surveued in the union and asked if they want to undertake action. Im not sure they would. A good 1000 left.