ASTI CEC recommends members rejects LR 2. 9th Sept 2017

MrJones1973

political analyst wrote: »

Are these principals acting unethically? If they are, the right thing to do is to report them to the Teaching Council.

This is Ireland. Presumably you live in Ireland ?

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

This is Ireland. Presumably you live in Ireland ?

Yes. The outcry about the cover-up of wrongdoing in Ireland in the recent past means that it is more likely that unethical behaviour will be reported.

SligoBrewer

feardeas wrote: »

It is wholly inaccurate to say there was no pay increase since 02. I started in 04 and remember voting in a pay deal that gave something, not a lot, but there was an increase.

Sorry, it's been 13 years, not 15 years.

MrJones1973

political analyst wrote: »

Yes. The outcry about the cover-up of wrongdoing in Ireland in the recent past means that it is more likely that unethical behaviour will be reported.

We still have to see a reformed Garda. We still have to see bankers jailed after revelations about people being forced off a tracker. Suicides resulted from that. I'm sure there are more examples. Look at the pilloring of Garda Mcabe? Grievance procedures in schools are designed to be a load of manure . Thankfully I never had to use one. TBH I think you are a fine Gael operative or worse in la la land !

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

We still have to see a reformed Garda. We still have to see bankers jailed after revelations about people being forced off a tracker. Suicides resulted from that. I'm sure there are more examples. Look at the pilloring of Garda Mcabe? Grievance procedures in schools are designed to be a load of manure . Thankfully I never had to use one. TBH I think you are a fine Gael operative or worse in la la land !

If ordinary teachers are being bullied by their principal then, surely, the ASTI would support them against the principal. After all, the principal of a secondary school in the south-east was kicked out of the TUI for disloyalty to ordinary teachers in 2004.

MrJones1973

political analyst wrote: »

If ordinary teachers are being bullied by their principal then, surely, the ASTI would support them against the principal. After all, the principal of a secondary school in the south-east was kicked out of the TUI for disloyalty to ordinary teachers in 2004.

Really that's interesting but overall I have heard nothing positive about procedures.

MrJones1973

Best of luck to ye all next week. I'm still inclined to vote yes but I'm half mad on a good day and I might just say screw you to reason or irrationality depending on the voice in my head ! I could vote no . Or yes

Sir123

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Best of luck to ye all next week. I'm still inclined to vote yes but I'm half mad on a good day and I might just say screw you to reason or irrationality depending on the voice in my head ! I could vote no . Or yes

I hope your NO detector is on and working this week..lol

Btw, I am being serious. Please vote NO. Remember, your vote can make a difference. Show us how proud you are of education and this country by giving your say. By voting NO, you are at least saying that you disagree with the erosion of pay & condition and the way in which education is negatively changing to suit some higher up government officials and an extremely right winged leadership.

Without your vote, this may be the last time anything can ever be done to prevent the worsening of education and teachers' pay & conditions.

gavwaldo

'Equal pay for LPT' page on facebook says TUI also going into talks with gov. Is this true? I'm def voting a big fat resounding NO. Teachers get absolutely nothing from this 'deal'.

km79

gavwaldo wrote: »

'Equal pay for LPT' page on facebook says TUI also going into talks with gov. Is this true? I'm def voting a big fat resounding NO. Teachers get absolutely nothing from this 'deal'.

Into already have
Out on our own again........that will appeal to members alright

MrJones1973

km79 wrote: »

Into already have
Out on our own again........that will appeal to members alright

Have the INTO gone into talks??

History Queen

gavwaldo wrote: »

'Equal pay for LPT' page on facebook says TUI also going into talks with gov. Is this true? I'm def voting a big fat resounding NO. Teachers get absolutely nothing from this 'deal'.

Asti going in to these talks too afaik. Check with your union leadership for confirmation.

Also these talks are talks with other unions too (its the promised review that wasn't meant to happen until 2018 but broyght forward to next couple of weeks by government ) not unique to teachers and logic is hear whats on offer and put teacher's view forward.

No guarantee into or tui allowed in as they have voted no. Asti may be allowed in as they have not voted no yet.

mirrorwall14

I thought that was a very disengenuous post by them. They aren’t talks about having voted no is my understanding. They are general talks related to LPT teachers. we might as well be in (if they’ll let us) to hear what the plan is

feardeas

Teaching unions would be stark raving mad but to be in those discussions. They are the only show in town when it comes to addressing LPT issues.

The fact that she gen sec of INTO is head of ICTU may help, she can say lads I can't go back to my crowd with nothing. They might get some tweak and then a definite time line for full pay scale equality and it would have to apply across the public sector.

Might gain some progress. To paraphrase Albert Reynolds surely people can't fear a settlement or resolution.

2011abc

‘Only show in town ‘ , Albert Reynolds quote ? Jeez when will this country ever be free of scourge of FF/FG ?And as for seeing Nunan as an asset to teachers ?!

Sir123

2011abc wrote: »

‘Only show in town ‘ , Albert Reynolds quote ? Jeez when will this country ever be free of scourge of FF/FG ?And as for seeing Nunan as an asset to teachers ?!

Exactly, I am sceptical of these "talks" to say the least.

2011abc

Some union official close to retirement appears on a state board in a year or two , those whom they’re meant to represent shafted saving the government tens of millions ...

MrJones1973

2011abc wrote: »

Some union official close to retirement appears on a state board in a year or two , those whom they’re meant to represent shafted saving the government tens of millions ...

I never directly heard of that but I heard that past presidents might get a nice junket to a foreign teacher conference but to be fair I never got direct evidence of that either so perhaps unfair to disparage them? I had great hopes for ED. After SC and him failed to deliver I gave up hope and now I feel much better

History Queen

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I thought that was a very disengenuous post by them. They aren’t talks about having voted no is my understanding. They are general talks related to LPT teachers. we might as well be in (if they’ll let us) to hear what the plan is

Agreed

feardeas

2011abc wrote: »

‘Only show in town ‘ , Albert Reynolds quote ? Jeez when will this country ever be free of scourge of FF/FG ?And as for seeing Nunan as an asset to teachers ?!

When the people vote differently, that's democracy. The paraphrase came from the time of the early days of the peace process before the ceasefire in 1994 but sure yeah everything ever done since independence is bad and we can all look forward to dystopia when our pals in Solidarity/PBP take the helm.

acequion

feardeas wrote: »

When the people vote differently, that's democracy. The paraphrase came from the time of the early days of the peace process before the ceasefire in 1994 but sure yeah everything ever done since independence is bad and we can all look forward to dystopia when our pals in Solidarity/PBP take the helm.

Ah come on now feardeas people are more than entitled to hate FF/FG and have left wing views! There is a notion held by supporters of the right that the left would wreck the country. That's a very arrogant viewpoint. I'm nearly certain that the left has never been in power in Ireland,as opposed to other western countries where the left is frequently in power. Whether they govern any better than the right is an argument for another thread. And personally I wouldn't agree with a lot of the policies of the left. But a left wing Government is a political alternative in any democracy.

MrJones1973

Im calling it 55-45% for the Yes side. Most staff I talked to voting Yes. Our numbers down. a lot of dejection and a lot of muttering about grand old duke of York. i await the next ASTI messiah. At the moment there is none.

I voted YES

Sir123

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Im calling it 55-45% for the Yes side. Most staff I talked to voting Yes. Our numbers down. a lot of dejection and a lot of muttering about grand old duke of York. i await the next ASTI messiah. At the moment there is none.

I voted YES

I kinda had this feeling today in the staffroom. I am a bit worried that this so called 'deal' might pass. I will be gutted if it does. I voted NO btw.

judeboy101

Talks will happen lpt gap will close we will lose more terms and conditions to close that gap

Sir123

judeboy101 wrote: »

Talks will happen lpt gap will close we will lose more terms and conditions to close that gap

Tbh, I don't see LPT pay being sorted unless we are militant and vote NO to this agreement. We have to be militant across the board though, INTO, TUI and ASTI united as one.

judeboy101

Sir123 wrote: »

Tbh, I don't see LPT pay being sorted unless we are militant and vote NO to this agreement. We have to be militant across the board though, INTO, TUI and ASTI united as one.

Never said sorted, said gap will close. There will never be equality but if you half the gap every new deal it looks like progress but it means you never have equality.

deiseindublin

I'd be shocked if the new deal passed in ASTI. There was never less on offer.

solerina

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Im calling it 55-45% for the Yes side. Most staff I talked to voting Yes. Our numbers down. a lot of dejection and a lot of muttering about grand old duke of York. i await the next ASTI messiah. At the moment there is none.

I voted YES

I tend to agree, most people who said how they voted said they voted yes....their reason...to avoid strike days pure and simple

2xj3hplqgsbkym

Last year, as an ASTI member I tried to keep up to date with all the voting / strikes etc.. This year I am sick of it and haven't a clue what I am even voting on. Can anyone give an unbiased idiots guide on what we are actually being asked to vote on and why ASTI are urging for no. My main objection last year was the new junior cycle and croke park hours , it seems we are back doing these regardless?

Sir123

Edison Late Condo wrote: »

Last year, as an ASTI member I tried to keep up to date with all the voting / strikes etc.. This year I am sick of it and haven't a clue what I am even voting on. Can anyone give an unbiased idiots guide on what we are actually being asked to vote on and why ASTI are urging for no. My main objection last year was the new junior cycle and croke park hours , it seems we are back doing these regardless?

CEC is recommending that members reject the agreement based on the following:

1) No comittmment to equal pay for equal work for teachers recruited after 2012.

2) Extremely high pension contribution- the pension levy that was introduced in 2009 as a temporary measure during the recession is now being rebranded as an Additional Pension Contribution and will be permanent for ever more.

3) Continuation of the detention for teacher hours, also known as the Croke park hrs.

4) Commitment to future reforms including the current Junior Cycle, which is in place, but future reforms are down the line. We will have no say on these matters apart from implementing whatever the government tell us.

5) If we vote yes, we are bound by an agreement that does not give us the power to strike on matters that affect pay & conditions etc, that more than likely will be further eroded during the agreement, what's new, it wouldn't surprise me.

6) FEMPI is still in place. It's punitive measures are still here to stay until at least 2021. Tbh, I don't see it going away unless a hard stance is taken.

acequion

Edison Late Condo wrote: »

Last year, as an ASTI member I tried to keep up to date with all the voting / strikes etc.. This year I am sick of it and haven't a clue what I am even voting on. Can anyone give an unbiased idiots guide on what we are actually being asked to vote on and why ASTI are urging for no. My main objection last year was the new junior cycle and croke park hours , it seems we are back doing these regardless?

Please vote No Edison Late Condo. Sir123 gave you an excellent overview in his post above but I would also add that if we vote yes to this, we will forever be listening to all and sundry telling us that we sold out our lesser paid young collegues. And they would be right. I personally couldn't live with myself if I did that. Apart from it being a selfish thing to do to collegues, it is an affront to the profession and guarantees that down the line we won't be able to attract quality into the profession. Teacher shortages are happening already in some subjects. Like why would anybody be a teacher when they'd struggle to rent [forget buying] in the cities?

Voting No doesn't guarantee pay equality but it's a first step and enables us to stand in solidarity with the TUI and INTO who have already voted No. If we vote yes, it totally weakens any campaign of theirs.

MrJones1973

Personally I switched off reading any Education editors material a long time ago. They will complain if you strike or dont strike?! If you take Industrial action its simply head down-switch off the media. A popular striker is an oxymoron. Its about pissing the public off who then complain to their politicians. You wont win a PR war in this climate.

We had some sympathy last year and should have continued with one day strikes . Even now that would work but I just dont see that happening so I voted YES. I note there was no ballot for Industrial action?! So what exactly is a no vote for?

evolving_doors

Registering a No means you don't agree with it.
A yes means you do.

acequion

evolving_doors wrote: »

Registering a No means you don't agree with it.
A yes means you do.

Exactly. Also a No means you're not prepared to sell out your lesser paid collegues, a Yes means you are. A No means you are are well aware that you're going back into limbo with no guarantees, a Yes means you're throwing in the towel. It really is that black and white.

Icsics

I voted No, but I have never seen such apathy amongst the staff. The LPTs all changed to TUI last yr & newer teachers are non Union. There is no talk about it in the staffroom & only 5 (out of 25) showed up to the meeting. I'd be worried about this one

MrJones1973

acequion wrote: »

Exactly. Also a No means you're not prepared to sell out your lesser paid collegues, a Yes means you are. A No means you are are well aware that you're going back into limbo with no guarantees, a Yes means you're throwing in the towel. It really is that black and white.

There is no Industrial action on the table so exactly what did you think would happen next after a No vote. We would huff and puff and blow their house down?

Inspector Coptoor

We had a meeting and around 25 of 47 members were there.

I am school Steward and I voted no.
44 teachers have now voted and I'll get the other three tomorrow and return the ballots for a 10"% turnout from our school.

It'll be a fairly evenly split vote.
Probably 55/45 on the yes side

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

There is no Industrial action on the table so exactly what did you think would happen next after a No vote. We would huff and puff and blow their house down?

No I don't think "we'll huff and puff and blow the house down." If a No is returned the next move will be considered then. Nobody said there wouldn't be industrial action. Industrial action may well be the next move or the lifting of our current suspension. All sorts of things might happen.

If a yes is returned then it's all over as ASTI will cosy up within the cocoon for the next four years. Ostriches tend to be happy in packs.

You voted Yes. Your prerogative. But stop implying that everyone has lost the will to fight for what is right just because you have. Because, in fact they haven't.

sitstill

It was about a 90% Yes from my school. We are dual union and all of the newer teachers joined or moved to the TUI last year.

Sir123

I think voting Yes is treachery. I think this will go down as one of the worst ballots in history due to the split within the union.

Also, a lot of members seem to believe that the INTO and TUI will fully cave. All I can say is that you are giving them the ammunition to do so if you vote Yes. Don't allow this to happen. Vote NO.

Teaching is done if this deal is passed. Low staff morale will be the highest it has ever been. A joke of an agreement.

MrJones1973

For your Own mental health I would find a way of dealing with a possible YES vote, Its not the apocalypse for God sake. Just dont take the Dept bull as seriously as you perhaps do. The LPTs can seize control of the union if they bothered their holes to go to branch meetings more. I know a lot do but hardly enough. Many branches reliant on retirees. The reality is what it is. I have been on losing sides more than I care to recall. You get up the next day and do your best. Thats it.

Sir123

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

For your Own mental health I would find a way of dealing with a possible YES vote, Its not the apocalypse for God sake. Just dont take the Dept bull as seriously as you perhaps do. The LPTs can seize control of the union if they bothered their holes to go to branch meetings more. I know a lot do but hardly enough. Many branches reliant on retirees. The reality is what it is. I have been on losing sides more than I care to recall. You get up the next day and do your best. Thats it.

Well I shouldn't have to do 100% of my job as I am only receiving 80% of what I should be getting. Snip snip.. no more correcting or professional development for LPTs. Sad it may seem but what's the point.

That's how an LPT would feel if this shambles passes. You don't do your best if morale if low. You can't. Don't really understand your point there.

evolving_doors

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

For your Own mental health I would find a way of dealing with a possible YES vote, Its not the apocalypse for God sake. Just dont take the Dept bull as seriously as you perhaps do. The LPTs can seize control of the union if they bothered their holes to go to branch meetings more. I know a lot do but hardly enough. Many branches reliant on retirees. The reality is what it is. I have been on losing sides more than I care to recall. You get up the next day and do your best. Thats it.

But that's always been the way with new entrants and engagement with union issues. Hence why it's up to more experienced members to give positive encouragement and use their knowledge to represent the profession. No matter what way you look at it, it's about the profession and ensuring that it's not aided on it's path to destruction.

It's not about younger teachers, LPT's, PME's. Cosains, Droigheads, retired teachers, Pre 2013 teachers, Post 2013 teachers. These are all arbitrary 'brackets' used to split the union/preofession by means of discrimination. I'm still setting teachers straight about the whole 'younger teachers were sold out by the senior ones' historical revision twaddle. It's the same rubbish trotted out by those who say it was the public service wages and bertie's giveaway who caused the bank bailouts!!!
If a teacher accepts that their own 'bracket' is more worthy (or another 'bracket' is unworthy), then they've bought into the lie and only help to perpetuate it. When I started teaching a lot of my older colleagues instantly regarded me as an equal... now i get the feeling that staff rooms are getting more chopped up. It's a dangerous situation when another teacher says, what's the point in helping another teacher out.

MrJones1973

Look I agree with you about younger teachers more interested in getting a job and surviving school life in first few years. Its only when you get married or buy a house that you realize how little you have. However Fightback proved one thing -that a dedicated group can have influence. In the end each teacher has to be willing to take a stand but too often teachers cant find their way to a union meting in their own school or think others will do it. Personal responsibility has to be in there somehow. Its like people blaming politicians-lead ,follow or get the fxxx out of the way. Voting aint enough.

At some point I will wake from my Union slumber and start the good fight again but for the moment Im willing to let things lie until momentum builds again. I did a decade of active involvement. Im at small kids stage now.

evolving_doors

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Look I agree with you about younger teachers more interested in getting a job and surviving school life in first few years. Its only when you get married or buy a house that you realize how little you have. However Fightback proved one thing -that a dedicated group can have influence. In the end each teacher has to be willing to take a stand but too often teachers cant find their way to a union meting in their own school or think others will do it. Personal responsibility has to be in there somehow. Its like people blaming politicians-lead ,follow or get the fxxx out of the way. Voting aint enough.

At some point I will wake from my Union slumber and start the good fight again but for the moment Im willing to let things lie until momentum builds again. I did a decade of active involvement. Im at small kids stage now.

It doesn't take 'each' teacher to take a stand. Just 51% of a vote. Then as a union you have to trust the majority (and of course the organisers!).

SligoBrewer

evolving_doors wrote: »

It doesn't take 'each' teacher to take a stand. Just 51% of a vote. Then as a union you have to trust the majority (and of course the organisers!).

Until the petitions are sent around...

acequion

evolving_doors wrote: »

It doesn't take 'each' teacher to take a stand. Just 51% of a vote. Then as a union you have to trust the majority (and of course the organisers!).

I'd actually agree with him on "each teacher", evolving doors. Look at it this way. If each member of each PS union decided to dig the heels in and have no more of these strait jacket agreements, would we be in the sorry state we are in? You bet we wouldn't. But first the big movers of Impact and Siptu caved, then the nurses and so on and so on. In the case of LRA1, ASTI were the only ones left to remain outside. But instead of each member holding tough, more and more started to get skittish and then downright scared, frustrated,impatient,jumping ship, the in fighting got worse and eventually the whole thing collapsed in an ungainly heap at the special convention. You really need people power to take on a Government and that people power is dependent on the resolve of each person.

Sadly there are now a lot less of the "each teacher" brigade. But maybe there are still just enough to make a majority. We'll know that in a week. Today I heard of a large urban school with a big No majority so it ain't over yet.

evolving_doors

acequion wrote: »

I'd actually agree with him on "each teacher", evolving doors. Look at it this way. If each member of each PS union decided to dig the heels in and have no more of these strait jacket agreements, would we be in the sorry state we are in? You bet we wouldn't. But first the big movers of Impact and Siptu caved, then the nurses and so on and so on. In the case of LRA1, ASTI were the only ones left to remain outside. But instead of each member holding tough, more and more started to get skittish and then downright scared, frustrated,impatient,jumping ship, the in fighting got worse and eventually the whole thing collapsed in an ungainly heap at the special convention. You really need people power to take on a Government and that people power is dependent on the resolve of each person.

Sadly there are now a lot less of the "each teacher" brigade. But maybe there are still just enough to make a majority. We'll know that in a week. Today I heard of a large urban school with a big No majority so it ain't over yet.

I'd disagree with that version of events. Every member I knew was prepared to 'hold tough' last November but they were stood down prematurely after a couple of days for some reason (mention of entering into 'talks', which was a charade of the highest order).
As for the special convention, that's just union rules, and as much as I'd be annoyed, the rules were adhered to.

acequion

evolving_doors wrote: »

I'd disagree with that version of events. Every member I knew was prepared to 'hold tough' last November but they were stood down prematurely after a couple of days for some reason (mention of entering into 'talks', which was a charade of the highest order).
As for the special convention, that's just union rules, and as much as I'd be annoyed, the rules were adhered to.

Well every member I know wasn't prepared to hold tough last November. Loads were getting very skittish about being locked out, more were panicking and emailing head office. There was big anger that we were being locked out and unpaid and cue loads of whingeing and giving out about the leaders. So maybe you saw great solidarity at that point but I certainly didn't. But I do agree that going into those farcical talks was a critical mistake. We should have kept going and the whingers would have had to get over it.

But I don't know how you don't agree with my version of events thereafter. The bitching,the infighting, the whingeing was only ferocious.Not to mention the jumping ship. The tiny majority No was constantly being attacked and it all culminated in that disaster of a special convention. And ya it was in the rules. But a very questionable rule that a tiny minority can overthrow a majority!

But it was the members which got us to all that. If each member had decided to hold tough,stick together,respect the majority vote, support the leaders rather than constantly bitching, I really feel that we would all be in a better place now.At the end of the day a union, like any group, is only as good as its members.

MrJones1973

Look lads and Lassies-effectively ye are just talking to yourselves here. Its largely an echo chamber for the no voters. I think you would be more effective campaigning elsewhere. The vote will be a huge YES. I take no pride in that but spending your time critiquing one Yes voter is a waste!