ASTI CEC recommends members rejects LR 2. 9th Sept 2017

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I don't think there is any point in going over special convention again and again. For me it was to stop bleeding members ,getting increments and CIDs. We had achieved nothing after a year of action.
Now we have to decide what to do ?I heard talk of simply rejecting deal and doing nothing !No action . This seems pointless to me.
With the INTO on side we have some chance as even a threat of strike from them would cause massive disruption to parents.
Bottom line though, unless teachers are willing to strike then we will get nowhere.
Last year doing practically nothing in terms of action achieved practically nothing.
De ja vu again ?! To be tongue in cheek

I see your point and you are right that eventually there has to be action and sacrifice to achieve our goals.

It will take a well organised and determined campaign by the three teacher unions to achieve pay parity. Even without the INTO on board there is a chance if ASTI and TUI work together, but will they is the very big question. The problem is the huge amount of right wing,conformist members in both unions. Our campaign last Autumn got derailed because members got skittish which in turn made the leaders skittish which resulted in us becoming cannon fodder. And though we just about managed to keep the campaign going we kept getting held back by the right wing elements from within. So that is the huge problem we face in trying to get a campaign off the ground.

But does that mean we just give in and vote Yes? Personally I think anyone who votes yes is crazy. Voting yes means giving the Govt the green light to chip away some more at our conditions, as they plan their next demands post 2021 [see my post on likely future demands some pages back]. So, I for one, would be quite happy to vote No and do nothing. Passive resistance may not be the best strategy but it is a strategy.

And as for achieving nothing last year,we achieved a whole year without the awful CP hours. A whole year without SLARS and all the extra work of the new JC. Ok,English teachers only but I happen to be one. Yes there were the financial sanctions but the extra money is so paltry as to be nowhere near worth all the extra hassle that we're now facing this year.

So when you look at it from that viewpoint, no way was last year wasted. It was my best and happiest year at school in a long time.

MrJones1973

acequion wrote: »

I see your point and you are right that eventually there has to be action and sacrifice to achieve our goals.

It will take a well organised and determined campaign by the three teacher unions to achieve pay parity. Even without the INTO on board there is a chance if ASTI and TUI work together, but will they is the very big question. The problem is the huge amount of right wing,conformist members in both unions. Our campaign last Autumn got derailed because members got skittish which in turn made the leaders skittish which resulted in us becoming cannon fodder. And though we just about managed to keep the campaign going we kept getting held back by the right wing elements from within. So that is the huge problem we face in trying to get a campaign off the ground.

But does that mean we just give in and vote Yes? Personally I think anyone who votes yes is crazy. Voting yes means giving the Govt the green light to chip away some more at our conditions, as they plan their next demands post 2021 [see my post on likely future demands some pages back]. So, I for one, would be quite happy to vote No and do nothing. Passive resistance may not be the best strategy but it is a strategy.

And as for achieving nothing last year,we achieved a whole year without the awful CP hours. A whole year without SLARS and all the extra work of the new JC. Ok,English teachers only but I happen to be one. Yes there were the financial sanctions but the extra money is so paltry as to be nowhere near worth all the extra hassle that we're now facing this year.

So when you look at it from that viewpoint, no way was last year wasted. It was my best and happiest year at school in a long time.

The denial of increments and CIDs etc was significant for many. Many members are to the pin of their collars particularly in Dublin with rising rents and astronomical childcare costs. However many of those issues-rents and Childcare need to be sorted at Government level for all citizens. But saying money is insignificant for everybody is just not true.

Sir123

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The denial of increments and CIDs etc was significant for many. Many members are to the pin of their collars particularly in Dublin with rising rents and astronomical childcare costs. However many of those issues-rents and Childcare need to be sorted at Government level for all citizens. But saying money is insignificant for everybody is just not true.

Rising rent costs and inferior salaries are a double whammy for LPTs.
This deal has nothing for them and/or the teaching profession. It should not be accepted.

MrJones1973

Sir123 wrote: »

Rising rent costs and inferior salaries are a double whammy for LPTs.
This deal has nothing for them and/or the teaching profession. It should not be accepted.

But a pay increase is a pay increase to those in arrears . Sure we'd love pay parity but based on last year and the perfidious nature of the TUI I have my doubts a better deal will be achieved. I have more faith in what the INTO might achieve. Let's see what happens
Though the figures for pre 2012 teachers are pretty ****. The reduction in pension levy would barely pay your electric bill in two months.
I think for pre 2012 there is a case for just doing a few grinds and telling them to fxxx off but for lpt they might want to take the money which amounts to what about 2k plus a CID in many cases rather than more action

History Queen

As a post 2012 teacher I have to say I am really hoping and praying that this is it... the last stand. This is going to finally be the push that gets us equality. I am sick of explaining the inequality issue to non-teachers, of earning lesd than my colleagues, of being unable to move on in my personal life with mortgage, house etc.

But most of all I'm sick of lying to my students. Barely a day goes by that I don't, for some reason or another, discuss the topic of equality with them. I toe the party line and try to impress upon them the importance of equality all the while wanting to tell them that actually, equality is an abstract ideal that will never be achieved in this country.

I'm sick of being angry, sick of begging for what I am entitled to and sick of fighting

ethical

Unfortunately I feel equality will happen but not as we want it......................... it will be in the form of putting "Retirement Strands " in place so that as many as possible of the teacher of age 50 + will be encouraged to leave,then what are you left with! There is so much unfairness around at the moment and so much bickering.Of course Paschal et al are loving it! Keep teachers fighting,blame them for all ills in society and get the Indo of that fat businessman on board and the public are happy that they have someone to blame.I suppose there are other Public Servants in some distress as well,imagine our legal brethern not being able to survive on six figure salaries due to the cuts imposed on them when we had our own cuts imposed.Leo would be afraid to call an election presently as he would not get an overall majority which would have people calling for his head and he would not want that.

political analyst

History Queen wrote: »

As a post 2012 teacher I have to say I am really hoping and praying that this is it... the last stand. This is going to finally be the push that gets us equality. I am sick of explaining the inequality issue to non-teachers, of earning lesd than my colleagues, of being unable to move on in my personal life with mortgage, house etc.

But most of all I'm sick of lying to my students. Barely a day goes by that I don't, for some reason or another, discuss the topic of equality with them. I toe the party line and try to impress upon them the importance of equality all the while wanting to tell them that actually, equality is an abstract ideal that will never be achieved in this country.
I'm sick of being angry, sick of begging for what I am entitled to and sick of fighting

Who said you had to?

History Queen

political analyst wrote: »

Who said you had to?

The curriculum.

History Queen

ethical wrote: »

Unfortunately I feel equality will happen but not as we want it......................... it will be in the form of putting "Retirement Strands " in place so that as many as possible of the teacher of age 50 + will be encouraged to leave,then what are you left with! There is so much unfairness around at the moment and so much bickering.Of course Paschal et al are loving it! Keep teachers fighting,blame them for all ills in society and get the Indo of that fat businessman on board and the public are happy that they have someone to blame.I suppose there are other Public Servants in some distress as well,imagine our legal brethern not being able to survive on six figure salaries due to the cuts imposed on them when we had our own cuts imposed.Leo would be afraid to call an election presently as he would not get an overall majority which would have people calling for his head and he would not want that.

I really really hope you are wrong but do see your logic unfortunately

political analyst

History Queen wrote: »

The curriculum.

That doesn't mean you can't mention the truth as an aside (it would only take a few seconds to do so; I doubt an inspector would care about off-the-cuff remarks) - some of my teachers did so on separate issues.

Traditionally, equality doesn't concern the timing of a person's appointment as an employee of an organisation.

Sir123

political analyst wrote: »

That doesn't mean you can't mention the truth as an aside (it would only take a few seconds to do so; I doubt an inspector would care about off-the-cuff remarks) - some of my teachers did so on separate issues.

Traditionally, equality doesn't concern the timing of a person's appointment as an employee of an organisation.

I don't think you understand that inequality is wrong. It's hard to teach the topic of equality to children and explain its importance in society when an inequality is imposed on the teacher themselves based on the year they qualified. Outrageous..

History Queen

political analyst wrote: »

That doesn't mean you can't mention the truth as an aside (it would only take a few seconds to do so; I doubt an inspector would care about off-the-cuff remarks) - some of my teachers did so on separate issues.

Traditionally, equality doesn't concern the timing of a person's appointment as an employee of an organisation.

What truth exactly do you think I should tell them? Of course I am not going to speak about my financial situation to my students. I am also not going to impose my personal beliefs on them. Therefore I fail to see what you want me to tell them that won't immediately undermine either my professionalism or my teaching.

political analyst

Sir123 wrote: »

I don't think you understand that inequality is wrong. It's hard to teach the topic of equality to children and explain its importance in society when an inequality is imposed on the teacher themselves based on the year they qualified. Outrageous..

I never said it was right. Sometimes, difficult things have to be done for the greater good.

political analyst

History Queen wrote: »

What truth exactly do you think I should tell them? Of course I am not going to speak about my financial situation to my students. I am also not going to impose my personal beliefs on them. Therefore I fail to see what you want me to tell them that won't immediately undermine either my professionalism or my teaching.

Then you're not lying to them - you're just not telling them the whole truth.

I'm sure that some of your students are aware of the situation by hearing the radio in the morning before they get the bus or as their parents are bringing them to school.

MrJones1973

I see no harm in telling your students the truth. You are not getting equal pay for Equal work. I would also explain that many union members not willing to go on strike for it and that some of those members are LPTs as well. The whole truth and nothing but the truth!

evolving_doors

OK back on topic ta.
Well take other questions at the end... whenever that is!
Mod

MrJones1973

Anyway I have decided to be consistent and vote yes . Having been around the Asti for 13 years and teaching for almost 25,I have no real Faith in theAsti to break the grand old Duke of York syndrome.
Members don't want to strike and thus are the proverbial frog on the hot plate. I have about ten years left but younger members with a lot more to go don't seem to fear the direction teaching is going.
There is no groundswell in any of the three unions to actually tackle the pay inequality by a strike and I'm very cynical about the principal dominated INTO . They are pissed off mainly because their principals paid less than secondary rather than younger members. The recent creation of a fightback like INTO group is too late
I admire alot of posters here but my advice is look after your own and walk away from Union activism.

paddybarry

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Anyway I have decided to be consistent and vote yes . Having been around the Asti for 13 years and teaching for almost 25,I have no real Faith in theAsti to break the grand old Duke of York syndrome.
Members don't want to strike and thus are the proverbial frog on the hot plate. I have about ten years left but younger members with a lot more to go don't seem to fear the direction teaching is going.
There is no groundswell in any of the three unions to actually tackle the pay inequality by a strike and I'm very cynical about the principal dominated INTO . They are pissed off mainly because their principals paid less than secondary rather than younger members. The recent creation of a fightback like INTO group is too late
I admire alot of posters here but my advice is look after your own and walk away from Union activism.

Id agree with a lot of that. The LPTs in my place just dont seem to care. Not members of union and expect everything to be handed to them. I appreciate the fight of the LPTs on here, but I suspect they are in the minority.

I will still vote No, but if I dont see strong action by Union this time, I wont again.

acequion

I will always vote No. Why? Because I will never be complicit in the neo liberal destruction of public services typified by Irish right wing parties,especially Fine Gael.

Many teachers consistently vote for such parties. Many teachers have consistently voted yes and will continue to do so. I neither agree with nor understand their logic but I respect them.

Who I would feel utterly disgusted with are people who have been union activists, who have always voted No, but who now with some perverse logic, will vote Yes because they're basically fed up with everything and fed up that the unions have achieved nothing.

My answer to that is to ask if you turn coat yes voters think that jumping into bed with the enemy is somehow justifiable? Because it's not. With a yes vote you are complicit in the destruction of education and the profession of teaching. You are giving the green light to the neo liberal agenda, which history will look back on with horror. You are giving official consent to you and your profession being treated as inferior in this brave new world of industry and private enterprise. You are categorically stating that you are ok with pay apartheid. And you are turning your back on your fellow activists and collegues.

At the very least can you people not vote No as a protest! Is that so hard?

I can fully understand people walking away from union activism. And I can fully understand them putting themselves first. But voting Yes is treachery.

I've about 6 years left. And believe me I'm all about me at the moment. I'm investing in extra AVCs and doing everything I can to secure a decent pension. But quite frankly I'm terrified for our pensions and Yes voters will be enablers to the attack on that which guaranteed will be next on the neo liberal agenda and which will affect ALL OF US. Therefore I will stay committed to union activism and will do everything I can.Because without unions things would be a hell of a lot worse.

In fact it was MrWhite who pointed out on one of these threads just how much worse things would be without unions!

We may be able to do little but we can still say No and it's what I'll always say to those who couldn't care less about education. And I can do that quite easily and still look after myself.

SligoBrewer

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I admire alot of posters here but my advice is look after your own and walk away from Union activism.

I'll never walk away from the money that the Government decided it was ok to pay me in 2002.

Why do you want people to walk away from the union? To let other people, the FF/FG hacks to speak on my behalf?
Come back to me man.

SligoBrewer

Once again.

SligoBrewer wrote: »

What plan do you want?

One that gets you a pay rise less than the rate of inflation?
One that makes the pension level permanent?
One that doesn't get LPTs anything?

Give me one good reason to accept this document. What is in it that is good?

MrJones1973

Lets get real folks. There will be no full pay restoration. There won't be full pay equality either. Unless three unions strike. Then you have a chance of a better deal. The INTO is key. Without them the government won't get excited over 2-3 daysof strike which is all the box set generation will suffer.
Go out and do grinds and look after your own. My advice unless the INTO goes out .Thousands of parents will have to stay home then and that would get government attention

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Lets get real folks. There will be no full pay restoration. There won't be full pay equality either. Unless three unions strike. Then you have a chance of a better deal. The INTO is key. Without them the government won't get excited over 2-3 daysof strike which is all the box set generation will suffer.
Go out and do grinds and look after your own. My advice unless the INTO goes out .Thousands of parents will have to stay home then and that would get government attention

I like the phrase "the box set generation"😀It does sum up the me feinism of current times unfortunately.But your post gives no answers as to why anyone should vote yes.I do share your sceptism about getting a proper strike off d ground but I repeat loud and clear that to vote Yes is treachery.At least give pay parity every chance.

Like I said earlier people can vote No and disengage from the union if they"re tired of it all.People can vote No and still look after themselves.

And with all due respect the advice about grinds is a tad patronising.

MrJones1973

Sure we all patronize each other daily whether we know it or not

Sir123

I'll always vote NO until they offer us a good deal and some respect. You'd think it wouldn't be too much to ask but clearly it is.

mirrorwall14

The pension issue in it should have everyone voting no at least once. The pension levy becoming permanent? And still not actually paid into a pot, just going to general taxation? Feck that

SligoBrewer

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

The pension issue in it should have everyone voting no at least once. The pension levy becoming permanent? And still not actually paid into a pot, just going to general taxation? Feck that

yeah but what is the plan?

political analyst

acequion wrote: »

I will always vote No. Why? Because I will never be complicit in the neo liberal destruction of public services typified by Irish right wing parties,especially Fine Gael.

Many teachers consistently vote for such parties. Many teachers have consistently voted yes and will continue to do so. I neither agree with nor understand their logic but I respect them.

Mainstream politicians want students to do well at school so that they'll have at least a fighting chance of getting employment once they finish their education. Therefore, the idea that centre-right politicians want to destroy education - or any other essential public service - does not make sense.

Just because bad stuff happened with secondary education in England it doesn't mean it'll happen with secondary education in Ireland. There are several differences (moral, cultural, constitutional) between the English and Irish education systems.

For example, giving some secondary schools more funding than others because of apparently higher rates in exam results would be unconstitutional because it would mean that some children are not as important as others.

evolving_doors

political analyst wrote: »

Mainstream politicians want students to do well at school so that they'll have at least a fighting chance of getting employment once they finish their education. Therefore, the idea that centre-right politicians want to destroy education - or any other essential public service - does not make sense.

Just because bad stuff happened with secondary education in England it doesn't mean it'll happen with secondary education in Ireland. There are several differences (moral, cultural, constitutional) between the English and Irish education systems.

For example, giving some secondary schools more funding than others because of apparently higher rates in exam results would be unconstitutional because it would mean that some children are not as important as others.

So are you saying that the mainstream politicians in the UK didn't 'want the students to do well'... which is why the bad stuff happened.

acequion

political analyst wrote: »

Mainstream politicians want students to do well at school so that they'll have at least a fighting chance of getting employment once they finish their education. Therefore, the idea that centre-right politicians want to destroy education - or any other essential public service - does not make sense.

Just because bad stuff happened with secondary education in England it doesn't mean it'll happen with secondary education in Ireland. There are several differences (moral, cultural, constitutional) between the English and Irish education systems.

For example, giving some secondary schools more funding than others because of apparently higher rates in exam results would be unconstitutional because it would mean that some children are not as important as others.

You sound well indoctrinated in the neo liberal creed ie that all these "reforms" are for the common good and that they will somehow lead to full employment.I would say bullshyt, as a common theme since the formation of the Irish state has been an inability to provide satisfactory gainful employment for all its citizens,hence periodic lost generations to emigration. With the pushing down of wages and shrinking state which are the hallmarks of neo liberalism, I can see this trend not only continuing but worsening.

Secondly,of course nobody admits that all this will lead to the destruction of public services,especially not our smiling politicians [Shakespeare's Polonius comes to mind]. However, the entire goal is to reduce the cost of it, so go figure! Already in the JC we have teacher assessment in by the back door,IBEC calling for the LC to be done like the JC,so why not start throwing bets on how long it will take for the SEC to become defunct! How easy it is to blitz people with spin and buzz words which camouflage reality. And you're right that the bad stuff might not be the same as in England. It will be different because it will probably be worse. At least the Brits are starting to cop on again as to what makes a decent education system.And you don't see them emigrating in droves.

Lastly,Fine Gael "centre right!" Ya that's what they're meant to be but the idea of Varadkar who dreamed of outlawing certain PS strikes, Donohue with his iron fist in a velvet glove and let's not even go there with Bruton, being somehow centrist, is comical.

So,don't kid yourself that these guys are champions of a public services or their servants!