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ASTI CEC recommends members rejects LR 2. 9th Sept 2017
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Still waiting for a single reason why one member should accept this deal apart from falling into line.0
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Mrwhite1970 wrote: »The denial of increments and CIDs etc was significant for many. Many members are to the pin of their collars particularly in Dublin with rising rents and astronomical childcare costs. However many of those issues-rents and Childcare need to be sorted at Government level for all citizens. But saying money is insignificant for everybody is just not true.
This. I'll be voting No but the denial of increments etc was a big deal to me. Since everything was restored I am up 140 euro a month. This makes a difference to me, big time. That was one argument that always irked me, that the pay restoration amount would be so paltry and insignificant. It wasn't to me and to many others I know.0 -
mirrorwall14 wrote: »The pension issue in it should have everyone voting no at least once. The pension levy becoming permanent? And still not actually paid into a pot, just going to general taxation? Feck that
In fairness... If we put all the pension contributions into a pot it'd become very clear you need general taxation to fund them.0 -
theoldbreed wrote: »This. I'll be voting No but the denial of increments etc was a big deal to me. Since everything was restored I am up 140 euro a month. This makes a difference to me, big time. That was one argument that always irked me, that the pay restoration amount would be so paltry and insignificant. It wasn't to me and to many others I know.
Is that before or after tax? Because for me on point 22 of the scale, the increase is €72 a month after tax. Now it's a few bob that I can use,certainly. But in proportion to what I have to deliver in return for this money, I would consider it very insignificant.0 -
SligoBrewer wrote: »Still waiting for a single reason why one member should accept this deal apart from falling into line.
Because without a momentum for strike-we head back to FEMPI. Lose money . For what exactly? For a better deal-no chance. Then a tweaked bull**** deal is put to us -members who complained but wont strike -accept the deal.
You will achieve nothing without a strike. A long one. The only hope is the INTO threaten even a day-you have some hope then as that would piss off thousands of parents. Childcare nightmare0 -
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You sound well indoctrinated in the neo liberal creed ie that all these "reforms" are for the common good and that they will somehow lead to full employment.I would say bullshyt, as a common theme since the formation of the Irish state has been an inability to provide satisfactory gainful employment for all its citizens,hence periodic lost generations to emigration. With the pushing down of wages and shrinking state which are the hallmarks of neo liberalism, I can see this trend not only continuing but worsening.
Secondly,of course nobody admits that all this will lead to the destruction of public services,especially not our smiling politicians [Shakespeare's Polonius comes to mind]. However, the entire goal is to reduce the cost of it, so go figure! Already in the JC we have teacher assessment in by the back door,IBEC calling for the LC to be done like the JC,so why not start throwing bets on how long it will take for the SEC to become defunct! How easy it is to blitz people with spin and buzz words which camouflage reality. And you're right that the bad stuff might not be the same as in England. It will be different because it will probably be worse. At least the Brits are starting to cop on again as to what makes a decent education system.And you don't see them emigrating in droves.
Lastly,Fine Gael "centre right!" Ya that's what they're meant to be but the idea of Varadkar who dreamed of outlawing certain PS strikes, Donohue with his iron fist in a velvet glove and let's not even go there with Bruton, being somehow centrist, is comical.
So,don't kid yourself that these guys are champions of a public services or their servants!
The assessments are not part of the State exams. The reflections written by students about the assessments are marked externally.
The JC was becoming very dated and thus needed reform. The reform of State exams is meant to provide students with skills that are vital in the workplace as well as helping them to remember facts because students who did well in the LC found themselves unprepared for the workplace due to the focus on rote learning.
Do you have any evidence to support your accusations?0 -
political analyst wrote: »The assessments are not part of the State exams. The reflections written by students about the assessments are marked externally.
The JC was becoming very dated and thus needed reform. The reform of State exams is meant to provide students with skills that are vital in the workplace as well as helping them to remember facts because students who did well in the LC found themselves unprepared for the workplace due to the focus on rote learning.
Do you have any evidence to support your accusations?
I'm finding that I really have to count to ten before replying to your posts. I guess that ignore button might be useful.
Firstly "The JC was becoming very dated and thus needed reform." Said who? Yourself and the Fine Gael hacks? Media spin? Someone who made a stupid throw away comment which became an anthem for austerity such as "we all partied." Also who the hell do you think you coming on to a site where serving teachers discuss real issues spouting spin and rubbish!! Those of us who teach everyday know that the JC was in need of a tweak, not surgical overhaul! And we also know there is no focus on rote learning in the LC! You haven't a clue what you're talking about!
Evidence to support my accusations!! What accusations? That it is on record that Varadkar wanted certain strikes outlawed before he chickened out of that one. And was it not Donohue who, on one of his after dinner speeches somewhere up north this summer stated how and why he dislikes the left! Real centrist politicians neither like nor dislike right or left as they occupy a middle ground. It is glaringly obvious in their policies that Fine Gael are not centrist, though they may claim to be so.
But this is not a thread for discussion on politics and politicians and I will certainly not derail it. I also have enough to be doing on a Sunday evening with a ton of work to prepare for the coming week than to be arguing with your sound bytes and spin. Go away and annoy somebody else!0 -
Mrwhite1970 wrote: »Because without a momentum for strike-we head back to FEMPI. Lose money . For what exactly? For a better deal-no chance. Then a tweaked bull**** deal is put to us -members who complained but wont strike -accept the deal.
You will achieve nothing without a strike. A long one. The only hope is the INTO threaten even a day-you have some hope then as that would piss off thousands of parents. Childcare nightmare
That answer basically says let's fall into line or we'll lose money.Personally I will willingly lose money to try to achieve pay parity though I am well aware that my attempts may fail and I'll still lose the money. But I will try. A no vote means we will at least try.We keep the options open, we are willing to see what we can do with TUI and see if second level teachers can force it. A yes vote means no we won't even try. Saying that people won't strike and we're all doomed is just excuse making and an attempt to justify voting yes.
And that's grand. But call a spade a spade. Admit that you're voting Yes because you've enough of it and you don't want to lose any more money. You would be far from the only one with that attitude, but I hope you will all be honest about it.0 -
Is that before or after tax? Because for me on point 22 of the scale, the increase is €72 a month after tax. Now it's a few bob that I can use,certainly. But in proportion to what I have to deliver in return for this money, I would consider it very insignificant.
It is after tax. I appreciate your sentiments but it is not insignificant to me and t genuinely does make a difference. I can't ignore that but as I stated previously I will be voting No regardless.0 -
That answer basically says let's fall into line or we'll lose money.Personally I will willingly lose money to try to achieve pay parity though I am well aware that my attempts may fail and I'll still lose the money. But I will try. A no vote means we will at least try.We keep the options open, we are willing to see what we can do with TUI and see if second level teachers can force it. A yes vote means no we won't even try. Saying that people won't strike and we're all doomed is just excuse making and an attempt to justify voting yes.
And that's grand. But call a spade a spade. Admit that you're voting Yes because you've enough of it and you don't want to lose any more money. You would be far from the only one with that attitude, but I hope you will all be honest about it.
Money is in the mix with my motivations but its not the only reason or the main one. I just dont see the point in losing more members for nothing. I just dont see the point in being denied training for a new course for nothing I dont see the point in younger members being denied CIDs for nothing. All of this happened last year and for-you guessed it for -nothing.
Thats not denying that campaign on JC which preceded LR1 didn't bear some fruit.0 -
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Mrwhite1970 wrote: »Money is in the mix with my motivations but its not the only reason. I just dont see the point in losing more members for nothing. I just dont see the point in being denied training for a new course . I dont see the point in younger members being denied CIDs for nothing.
And I guess you don't see the point in young teachers being paid significantly less per year? It really does equate to a substancial amount over one's career.
The LPT issue is the underlying reason as to why I will be voting NO anyway. Imagine if roles were reversed and you were the LPT. Would you not find it strange and insulting that your colleagues ticked the 'yes' box that further communicated to the government that three-tier payscales are acceptable in education?
I will see it as demoralising and insulting if this "deal" is passed. It is a scam and voting "yes" is like saying it is the lesser of two evils but I guarantee you it's not.0 -
And I guess you don't see the point in young teachers being paid significantly less per year? It really does equate to a substancial amount over one's career.
The LPT issue is the underlying reason as to why I will be voting NO anyway. Imagine if roles were reversed and you were the LPT. Would you not find it strange and insulting that your colleagues ticked the 'yes' box that further communicated to the government that three-tier payscales are acceptable in education?
I will see it as demoralising and insulting if this "deal" is passed. It is a scam and voting "yes" is like saying it is the lesser of two evils but I guarantee you it's not.
I found it strange and insulting that the LPTs we were striking for in my school last year left the union and crossed the picket line .
Wonder what they will do now if one union rejects and other accepts ? Choose whichever suits them best like last year I suppose0 -
I found it strange and insulting that the LPTs we were striking for in my school last year left the union and crossed the picket line .
Wonder what they will do now if one union rejects and other accepts ? Choose whichever suits them best like last year I suppose
Well that shouldn't have happened. TUI broke ICTU rules by accepting ASTI members during a dispute. I would find it hard to imagine that this would happen again seeing as ASTI is taking a case regarding this same issue.
I understanding what you are saying and to be quite honest I don't know what to say.
I can only tell you from my perspective that I feel that this deal is an insult, but at the end of the day, those that have long had permanency are not affected by inferior pay scales and are not living like a LPT that is coming out with very little money and virtually no security, for more that a period of just a couple of years.
The fact that we were isolated last year and got nowhere seems to imply that we all need to stick together to ensure that we as ASTI members back both the INTO and TUI in order to fight effectively towards newly qualified teacher pay.
The past is the past and we should all try and move on collectively with our fellow union colleagues in order for anything to happen. Pay inequality is demoralising and insulting to young teachers who joined the profession after 2010 through no fault of their own.0 -
Well that shouldn't have happened. TUI broke ICTU rules by accepting ASTI members during a dispute. I would find it hard to imagine that this would happen again seeing as ASTI is taking a case regarding this same issue.
I understanding what you are saying and to be quite honest I don't know what to say.
I can only tell you from my perspective that I feel that this deal is an insult, but at the end of the day, those that have long had permanency are not affected by inferior pay scales and are not living like a LPT that is coming out with very little money and virtually no security, for more that a period of just a couple of years.
The fact that we were isolated last year and got nowhere seems to imply that we all need to stick together to ensure that we as ASTI members back both the INTO and TUI in order to fight effectively towards newly qualified teacher pay.
The past is the past and we should all try and move on collectively with our fellow union colleagues in order for anything to happen. Pay inequality is demoralising and insulting to young teachers who joined the profession after 2010 through no fault of their own.
The so called investigation by ICTU will probably be as effective as every official investigation in Ireland! Look Id love to see a united strike by all three unions but it would have to be at least six days to make it effective. Look into your heart-do you see this happening?0 -
I need help with my homework!!
I'm talking to staff tomorrow as ASTI rep and I said I'd know stuff by then but I don't really know stuff....
They want to know about Pension related deductions. The Voice for Teachers FB page is saying we'll be down money as the pay increase is 5.75% (they're wrongly saying 7.75 but that's another matter) and then they're taking away 10% for PRD (well 10% above €32k).
My question is which band do teachers fall under? Options are Members of pre-2013 Pension Schemes with Standarn Accrual Terms, Members on Single Public Service Pension Scheme or pre-2013 Pension Schemes with Fast Accruel.
Also, someone said back along that we are bound to ICTU decisions as we are members of ICTU. Is that true? Surely if it's true it doesn't matter how we vote.0 -
I need help with my homework!!
I'm talking to staff tomorrow as ASTI rep and I said I'd know stuff by then but I don't really know stuff....
They want to know about Pension related deductions. The Voice for Teachers FB page is saying we'll be down money as the pay increase is 5.75% (they're wrongly saying 7.75 but that's another matter) and then they're taking away 10% for PRD (well 10% above €32k).
My question is which band do teachers fall under? Options are Members of pre-2013 Pension Schemes with Standarn Accrual Terms, Members on Single Public Service Pension Scheme or pre-2013 Pension Schemes with Fast Accruel.
Also, someone said back along that we are bound to ICTU decisions as we are members of ICTU. Is that true? Surely if it's true it doesn't matter how we vote.
Dory I can't really answer your questions on the pension stuff but as far as I know everything is in Nuacht. I know that an excellent team of people put it together and seemingly it provides answers on almost everything. Haven't got round to reading it yet myself though.
Re ICTU. ICTU headed by, who else, only INTO boss Sheila Nunan, have ratified the deal as the vast majority of public servants have accepted it. That kind of thing will always be a problem for us as the vote is generally carried by the largest unions of SIPTU and IMPACT. And INTO,but not this time. So in theory as ASTI are part of ICTU we are bound by their decisions but that hasn't stopped us from going it alone in the past. Just look at the very recent past where we were the only union who didn't sign up to LRA1. So it does very much matter how we vote.
The main reason CEC are urging a No is because there is a sense that it is now or never to achieve pay parity, even a timeline for pay parity. At the time of the CEC meeting INTO were still on board. While they haven't jumped over as yet, the best chance now is an alliance with TUI. It is definitely worth a try and for that we need a No.
Hope that helps a little.0 -
Dory I can't really answer your questions on the pension stuff but as far as I know everything is in Nuacht. I know that an excellent team of people put it together and seemingly it provides answers on almost everything. Haven't got round to reading it yet myself though.
I've read Nuacht - lots of infor on pensions but no info on which pension belongs to who! But I think I can make it out by comparing the savings detailed on Nuacht with the figures in the pay agreement document.0 -
theoldbreed wrote: »It is after tax. I appreciate your sentiments but it is not insignificant to me and t genuinely does make a difference. I can't ignore that but as I stated previously I will be voting No regardless.
Fair play to you!0 -
Are ballot papers being sent to schools this week? Can't wait to vote NO to this farce.0
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Give me a ballot that are least sets out 8 days of strike and you have my vote. My dearly departed old man was on strike for six months with three kids . He was in the bank. A lower middle class profession at time that because of his efforts and others who had balls -became middle class. A job to aspire to . He had to leave his family to get work. Tesco workers went out for three weeks plus. They slowed onslaught .
We **** ourselves over 2 days??!
I fully support sentiments off those suggesting no but for your own mental health realise these are the box set generation. They don't have the backbone0 -
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It would be very easy of me to play generational warfare, but we are all workers. I hope you support those of the boxset generation who have a backbone.
Yours,
A millenial snowflake.0 -
Im in two minds about it now to be honest. I don't feel lpts are behind action. I would like them surveyed and have suggested that to head office but it's not much like common sense for them. The pension levy reduction is ****0
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I can understand that people sense indifference from LPTs and their willingness to fight.
However, can it also not be argued that perhaps they shouldn't have to fight and cause war in order to have equal pay and conditions?
It's like the South African government saying that it's the fault of black people that apartheid didn't end sooner because they didn't protest enough.
An extreme example I know, but ultimately LPTs are being turned on because they're not fighting for something that by right they should have already without question.
BTW...Vote No.0 -
Perhaps the black South Africans could attend a union meeting even in their own school or avoid joining the Afrikaans TUI?!0
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Mrwhite1970 wrote: »Perhaps the black South Africans could attend a union meeting even in their own school or avoid joining the Afrikaans TUI?!
Ah lads in fairness [I'm addressing Mrwhite and those thanking him] ye just have to let all that go for the greater good of the profession.
LPTs are young,they're finding their feet in the job, they're looking over their shoulders. Overall in life they're basically, as the yanks would say, getting their shyt together. They aren't really into trade unions the way you do when you get older and more cynical. I was a lot like them when I was starting out. Full of attitude. Often thinking I knew so much more than some poor aul wan or aul fella of 60 simply because I had modern ideas and they were sooo past it. I was quite obnoxious really. So at their age I may well have jumped ship too and I was never at a union meeting. Meanwhile the older teachers were at the meetings fighting on my behalf. Because that's what older teachers do. We keep the seats warm for those coming on behind us, we fight for their conditions because ultimately we want them to do as good a job as we did and we want to leave the profession in good hands.
We will NEVER be allowed to forget this if we vote yes. Forever more we'll be hearing about how we sold them out. And this time it would be the truth. And eventually as quality and talent take up other professions and we get yellower than yellow packs joining our staffs, how will you all feel about having to work with this new inferior breed of teacher? Because if you don't keep up the fight for pay parity you're basically only keeping the seat warm for the monkeys happy to take peanuts.0 -
Ah lads in fairness [I'm addressing Mrwhite and those thanking him] ye just have to let all that go for the greater good of the profession.
LPTs are young,they're finding their feet in the job, they're looking over their shoulders. Overall in life they're basically, as the yanks would say, getting their shyt together. They aren't really into trade unions the way you do when you get older and more cynical. I was a lot like them when I was starting out. Full of attitude. Often thinking I knew so much more than some poor aul wan or aul fella of 60 simply because I had modern ideas and they were sooo past it. I was quite obnoxious really. So at their age I may well have jumped ship too and I was never at a union meeting. Meanwhile the older teachers were at the meetings fighting on my behalf. Because that's what older teachers do. We keep the seats warm for those coming on behind us, we fight for their conditions because ultimately we want them to do as good a job as we did and we want to leave the profession in good hands.
We will NEVER be allowed to forget this if we vote yes. Forever more we'll be hearing about how we sold them out. And this time it would be the truth. And eventually as quality and talent take up other professions and we get yellower than yellow packs joining our staffs, how will you all feel about having to work with this new inferior breed of teacher? Because if you don't keep up the fight for pay parity you're basically only keeping the seat warm for the monkeys happy to take peanuts.
They can moan all they like the LPTs. Its true when you are young you often are not tuned into Union matters but in this case they had a tidal wave hit them and they ran for cover to the TUI. They can blame me or other senior people all they like. Even if they had never got a cut-I would not trust them or my fellow ASTI members to show any backbone if or when my back is to the wall. I know too many schools where Principals can be a total prick safe in the knowledge the ASTI created grievance procedure is a joke. You are all heading for another fall. Dont delude yourselves
The senior members have a tradition of screwing younger members. For most of ASTI history there was only two contracts-permanent or hourly. I dont recall a strike to fix that but it was eventually partly solved in 1988 by the arrival of EPT contracts. After 70 odd years of ASTI existence. CIDs came via EU not the ASTI.0 -
Mrwhite1970 wrote: »They can moan all they like the LPTs. Its true when you are young you often are not tuned into Union matters but in this case they had a tidal wave hit them and they ran for cover to the TUI. They can blame me or other senior people all they like. Even if they had never got a cut-I would not trust them or my fellow ASTI members to show any backbone if or when my back is to the wall. I know too many schools where Principals can be a total prick safe in the knowledge the ASTI created grievance procedure is a joke. You are all heading for another fall. Dont delude yourselves
The senior members have a tradition of screwing younger members. For most of ASTI history there was only two contracts-permanent or hourly. I dont recall a strike to fix that but it was eventually partly solved in 1988 by the arrival of EPT contracts. After 70 odd years of ASTI existence. CIDs came via EU not the ASTI.
Sure look it, be grand as they say.. We will all carry on working under poor working conditions that get worse by the day, including a permanent pension levy and croke park hours.
Surely if you feel that you can't do anything for your lesser paid colleagues, I am surprised you would vote yes even on the above (pension levy, croke park hrs etc).
We are all entitled to our vote at the end of the day, but this "deal" does nothing for me, hence the reason I will vote NO.0 -
Mrwhite1970 wrote: »They can moan all they like the LPTs. Its true when you are young you often are not tuned into Union matters but in this case they had a tidal wave hit them and they ran for cover to the TUI. They can blame me or other senior people all they like. Even if they had never got a cut-I would not trust them or my fellow ASTI members to show any backbone if or when my back is to the wall. I know too many schools where Principals can be a total prick safe in the knowledge the ASTI created grievance procedure is a joke. You are all heading for another fall. Dont delude yourselves
The senior members have a tradition of screwing younger members. For most of ASTI history there was only two contracts-permanent or hourly. I dont recall a strike to fix that but it was eventually partly solved in 1988 by the arrival of EPT contracts. After 70 odd years of ASTI existence. CIDs came via EU not the ASTI.
CIDs came via the EU?? So what happened to TWts and PWts? I'm not being smart or anything. I'd just like to know. Because to my knowledge CIDs,though more easily acquired than past contracts, are inferior to the olds TWT and PWT. And what about the basic fact that it was the ASTI who managed to secure the two year Ward CID?
As for your point that senior members have a habit of screwing younger members. If that is even true, then it only dates from these agreements. Senior members always fought for younger members,always! You say you only remember back to 88. Well I remember back to 85, when teachers were fighting Gemma Hussey. And wow did they fight her! If I'm not mistaken, significant gains for teachers were secured then. I emigrated shortly afterwards so can't be certain but I do know that these were years when teacher unions,TUI, just as much, if not more so than ASTI, put their money where their mouth is!
And as for posterity, hey your collegues may well let it pass,but you can be certain that society in general and the media in particular will use it to nail you and have you squirm in a corner if you ever again so as much as open your mouths! Can you not hear it already, "Sure you people took a vote to seal in pay apartheid ,so what exactly is your problem this time?"
Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable and vote No!0 -
Mrwhite1970 wrote: »They can moan all they like the LPTs. Its true when you are young you often are not tuned into Union matters but in this case they had a tidal wave hit them and they ran for cover to the TUI. They can blame me or other senior people all they like. Even if they had never got a cut-I would not trust them or my fellow ASTI members to show any backbone if or when my back is to the wall. I know too many schools where Principals can be a total prick safe in the knowledge the ASTI created grievance procedure is a joke. You are all heading for another fall. Dont delude yourselves
The senior members have a tradition of screwing younger members. For most of ASTI history there was only two contracts-permanent or hourly. I dont recall a strike to fix that but it was eventually partly solved in 1988 by the arrival of EPT contracts. After 70 odd years of ASTI existence. CIDs came via EU not the ASTI.
Are these principals acting unethically? If they are, the right thing to do is to report them to the Teaching Council.0 -
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Look id love to see a real strike. A real argument not this passive aggressive bull grand old duke of York stuff. I ain't into token protests . Look I should be taken aside like a horse at aintree to be put down on this site as I probably have said the same thing 100 times but I feel like a battered spouse who is expected to believe this time things will be different ? Really ? On what evidence? Instead I'm expected to lose 2-3 days max salary so I can be smug but the lpts no better off ?I am not into token bull****
Please requote this text if I ever post here again on this forum. Put the curtains around me and ban me. Please0
This discussion has been closed.
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