ASTI CEC recommends members rejects LR 2. 9th Sept 2017

SligoBrewer

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

They can moan all they like the LPTs. Its true when you are young you often are not tuned into Union matters but in this case they had a tidal wave hit them and they ran for cover to the TUI.

Most of those people who left the ASTI were permanent members, not lower paid teachers, despite the spin from the lads in June. You can delete your entire post if you wish.

I'm gonna stand with my fellow teachers in the TUI and INTO and get something done, and not hang them out to dry. You said it yourself, we're only going to get something if we all act together. So at least give the leaders a chance to take a stand.

The TUI and INTO have both presented overwhelming majorities displaying how awful this deal is for teachers of all ages and experiences.
It's honestly beggar's belief to see the usual suspects wielding out the party line of pragmatism and pacifism in the name of degradation of working conditions and pay when factored against inflation. The teaching profession hasn't got a pay rise since 2002.

This is honestly the worst deal I can imagine for teachers, like it is honestly so bad. There is not a single thing in it that is good. Not one.

acequion

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Most of those people who left the ASTI were permanent members, not lower paid teachers, despite the spin from the lads in June. You can delete your entire post if you wish.

I'm gonna stand with my fellow teachers in the TUI and INTO and get something done, and not hang them out to dry. You said it yourself, we're only going to get something if we all act together. So at least give the leaders a chance to take a stand.

The TUI and INTO have both presented overwhelming majorities displaying how awful this deal is for teachers of all ages and experiences.
It's honestly beggar's belief to see the usual suspects wielding out the party line of pragmatism and pacifism in the name of degradation of working conditions and pay when factored against inflation. The teaching profession hasn't got a pay rise since 2002.

This is honestly the worst deal I can imagine for teachers, like it is honestly so bad. There is not a single thing in it that is good. Not one.

Very well put and I 100% agree. I will be so very ashamed if ASTI pass this joke of a deal.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Look id love to see a real strike. A real argument not this passive aggressive bull grand old duke of York stuff. I ain't into token protests . Look I should be taken aside like a horse at aintree to be put down on this site as I probably have said the same thing 100 times but I feel like a battered spouse who is expected to believe this time things will be different ? Really ? On what evidence? Instead I'm expected to lose 2-3 days max salary so I can be smug but the lpts no better off ?I am not into token bull****
Please requote this text if I ever post here again on this forum. Put the curtains around me and ban me. Please

Will you ever cop on, yourself and your two fans who keeping thanking you like noddy the donkey!

If I hear about the grand old duke of york once more I'll be heard screaming like the grand old banshee of kerry!

You guys are sick of it all,we get it. But must ye jump into to bed with the enemy and sell the LPTs and the profession in generally down the river to sink into the muck?

So what if ye lose a few days pay and the LPTs still gain nothing? The point being that at least we're being consistent. We're still fighting, we're still protesting and no actually they are not mere "token protests." If we show the Govt that we're not for turning,that we haven't given up eventually it will pay off. Of that I am 100% convinced.It may take time. But if we show this awful resignation, weariness and apathy that are written all over your posts we're cannon fodder.

Vote yes if you believe in this agreement, if deep down you think pay apartheid is ok,if you're a supporter of this Govt and their policies. But to actually vote yes just because ye're fed up and not into "token protests" is a pathetic excuse for a reason.

I can well see why sligobrewer and the many LPTs he would represent,who stayed loyal and didn't jump ship, would be disgusted.

I really hope you don't post again if all you can offer is that defeatist excuse making. You're sick of it ok but stop trying to contaminate the many who may be still undecided.

km79

acequion wrote: »

Will you ever cop on, yourself and your two fans who keeping thanking you like noddy the donkey!

It's ignorant comments like this that made me stop posting here.
I agree with a lot of his sentiments so I thank the post rather than retyping it for myself .
Is that ok ? Is that not what the thank button is for ?
It seems if anyone expresses any kind of opinion that's differs from yourself they are attacked .
Is it any wonder nobody posts here anymore .

For what it's worth I'll be voting no AGAIN but not because of people like yourself shouting others down but because I'm educated enough on the matters to make my own mind up .

Won't be posting again
Enjoy the thanks

acequion

km79 wrote: »

It's ignorant comments like this that made me stop posting here.
I agree with a lot of his sentiments so I thank the post rather than retyping it for myself .
Is that ok ? Is that not what the thank button is for ?
It seems if anyone expresses any kind of opinion that's differs from yourself they are attacked .
Is it any wonder nobody posts here anymore .

For what it's worth I'll be voting no AGAIN but not because of people like yourself shouting others down but because I'm educated enough on the matters to make my own mind up .

Won't be posting again
Enjoy the thanks

Rubbish km! Pure peevish rubbish! And bitchy as well as my comments about you guys thanking are as tongue in cheek as mrwhite's own humour. Luckily mrwhite and I both appear well past getting insulted with each other. You should be well past that too.Like me,you've been around here a while.

Saying you don't post here anymore because you don't like my style is a pathetic excuse. These are tough times. We're all going around tearing strips off each other.Some of us happen to passionately believe in what we're saying and practise what we preach.None of it is personal. Many of us would probably have great time for each other if we were acquainted out there in the real world. I'm sorry but I really can't have sympathy for the shrinking violets who can't deal with the cyber vibes of strong opinion.

That said, I'm delighted to hear that you'll be voting No. Thanks for that!

paddybarry

km79 wrote: »

It's ignorant comments like this that made me stop posting here.
I agree with a lot of his sentiments so I thank the post rather than retyping it for myself .
Is that ok ? Is that not what the thank button is for ?
It seems if anyone expresses any kind of opinion that's differs from yourself they are attacked .
Is it any wonder nobody posts here anymore .

For what it's worth I'll be voting no AGAIN but not because of people like yourself shouting others down but because I'm educated enough on the matters to make my own mind up .

Won't be posting again
Enjoy the thanks

Me too, she must have missed the part where i said i was voting no.

Its a pity people only want to hear others who validate their own opinions on here.

Sir123

paddybarry wrote: »

Me too, she must have missed the part where i said i was voting no.

Its a pity people only want to hear others who validate their own opinions on here.

I must apologise in advance. I was adament you and km79 were avid yes voters based on some comments. I am glad ye will be voting NO as this "deal" does nothing for the teaching profession..period..

acequion

Sir123 wrote: »

I must apologise in advance. I was adament you and km79 were avid yes voters based on some comments. I am glad ye will be voting NO as this "deal" does nothing for the teaching profession..period..

Well I knew they weren't avid yes voters, far from it, but I was seriously afraid they had been "reformed" and were heading over to the yes camp. And it had me seriously worried about how many others were doing likewise.

But I seem to have given offence. And I apologise for that to both paddybarry and km79. As I said earlier there is nothing personal in it. I do appreciate that people are very pissed off with all the ASTI people who jumped ship and can also see that many people are very weary of it all. But I repeat that that in no way justifies a yes vote.

As for the echo chamber comments. Obviously we all like to be agreed with. But airing our views on a public medium means we are aware there will be opposing views, often equally impassioned. I would never stop posting just because some strong minded individual criticised me. That would be silly.

But the whole thing has me a tad over excited so I'm taking time out, but only til next week.

evolving_doors

Tone it down a bit Acquion, anyone can post here and shouldn't be shouted down or criticised for thanking a point made. Plenty of teachers won't be even bothered to vote as they don't care either way. Anyone who posts here is taking an interest and that's a good thing.

Of late, the best approach seems to be to put threads/topics on ice till a few days after a vote result. If it goes that way again maybe posters will be asked to sit it out instead.
Try and depersonalise the debate please.
THanks.

Don't respond to this post.
Mod

feardeas

SligoBrewer wrote:

The TUI and INTO have both presented overwhelming majorities displaying how awful this deal is for teachers of all ages and experiences. It's honestly beggar's belief to see the usual suspects wielding out the party line of pragmatism and pacifism in the name of degradation of working conditions and pay when factored against inflation. The teaching profession hasn't got a pay rise since 2002.

It is wholly inaccurate to say there was no pay increase since 02. I started in 04 and remember voting in a pay deal that gave something, not a lot, but there was an increase. Think it might have been late 04 or early 05. Let's at least be accurate. Of course it was all wiped out from early 09 which was just as I started paying my mortgage on a house which was losing value by the hour. My timing was impeccable and it was compounded by the fact that the trackers were taken off the market a matter of weeks before I got approved.

Still paying it and will be till I'm 62.

It's interesting that there's a lot less on here now. I would be amazed if ASTI accepted this deal especially given the fact that in excess of 1000 left and they would have been yes voters but I've heard it could be very well accepted.

Either way the other two may not repudiate and we may get a timeline for restoration of equality in pay scales. That imo is all that can be got unless they restore the dip allowance to those that don't have it. Time will tell.

MrJones1973

political analyst wrote: »

Are these principals acting unethically? If they are, the right thing to do is to report them to the Teaching Council.

This is Ireland. Presumably you live in Ireland ?

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

This is Ireland. Presumably you live in Ireland ?

Yes. The outcry about the cover-up of wrongdoing in Ireland in the recent past means that it is more likely that unethical behaviour will be reported.

SligoBrewer

feardeas wrote: »

It is wholly inaccurate to say there was no pay increase since 02. I started in 04 and remember voting in a pay deal that gave something, not a lot, but there was an increase.

Sorry, it's been 13 years, not 15 years.

MrJones1973

political analyst wrote: »

Yes. The outcry about the cover-up of wrongdoing in Ireland in the recent past means that it is more likely that unethical behaviour will be reported.

We still have to see a reformed Garda. We still have to see bankers jailed after revelations about people being forced off a tracker. Suicides resulted from that. I'm sure there are more examples. Look at the pilloring of Garda Mcabe? Grievance procedures in schools are designed to be a load of manure . Thankfully I never had to use one. TBH I think you are a fine Gael operative or worse in la la land !

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

We still have to see a reformed Garda. We still have to see bankers jailed after revelations about people being forced off a tracker. Suicides resulted from that. I'm sure there are more examples. Look at the pilloring of Garda Mcabe? Grievance procedures in schools are designed to be a load of manure . Thankfully I never had to use one. TBH I think you are a fine Gael operative or worse in la la land !

If ordinary teachers are being bullied by their principal then, surely, the ASTI would support them against the principal. After all, the principal of a secondary school in the south-east was kicked out of the TUI for disloyalty to ordinary teachers in 2004.

MrJones1973

political analyst wrote: »

If ordinary teachers are being bullied by their principal then, surely, the ASTI would support them against the principal. After all, the principal of a secondary school in the south-east was kicked out of the TUI for disloyalty to ordinary teachers in 2004.

Really that's interesting but overall I have heard nothing positive about procedures.

MrJones1973

Best of luck to ye all next week. I'm still inclined to vote yes but I'm half mad on a good day and I might just say screw you to reason or irrationality depending on the voice in my head ! I could vote no . Or yes

Sir123

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Best of luck to ye all next week. I'm still inclined to vote yes but I'm half mad on a good day and I might just say screw you to reason or irrationality depending on the voice in my head ! I could vote no . Or yes

I hope your NO detector is on and working this week..lol

Btw, I am being serious. Please vote NO. Remember, your vote can make a difference. Show us how proud you are of education and this country by giving your say. By voting NO, you are at least saying that you disagree with the erosion of pay & condition and the way in which education is negatively changing to suit some higher up government officials and an extremely right winged leadership.

Without your vote, this may be the last time anything can ever be done to prevent the worsening of education and teachers' pay & conditions.

gavwaldo

'Equal pay for LPT' page on facebook says TUI also going into talks with gov. Is this true? I'm def voting a big fat resounding NO. Teachers get absolutely nothing from this 'deal'.

km79

gavwaldo wrote: »

'Equal pay for LPT' page on facebook says TUI also going into talks with gov. Is this true? I'm def voting a big fat resounding NO. Teachers get absolutely nothing from this 'deal'.

Into already have
Out on our own again........that will appeal to members alright

MrJones1973

km79 wrote: »

Into already have
Out on our own again........that will appeal to members alright

Have the INTO gone into talks??

History Queen

gavwaldo wrote: »

'Equal pay for LPT' page on facebook says TUI also going into talks with gov. Is this true? I'm def voting a big fat resounding NO. Teachers get absolutely nothing from this 'deal'.

Asti going in to these talks too afaik. Check with your union leadership for confirmation.

Also these talks are talks with other unions too (its the promised review that wasn't meant to happen until 2018 but broyght forward to next couple of weeks by government ) not unique to teachers and logic is hear whats on offer and put teacher's view forward.

No guarantee into or tui allowed in as they have voted no. Asti may be allowed in as they have not voted no yet.

mirrorwall14

I thought that was a very disengenuous post by them. They aren’t talks about having voted no is my understanding. They are general talks related to LPT teachers. we might as well be in (if they’ll let us) to hear what the plan is

feardeas

Teaching unions would be stark raving mad but to be in those discussions. They are the only show in town when it comes to addressing LPT issues.

The fact that she gen sec of INTO is head of ICTU may help, she can say lads I can't go back to my crowd with nothing. They might get some tweak and then a definite time line for full pay scale equality and it would have to apply across the public sector.

Might gain some progress. To paraphrase Albert Reynolds surely people can't fear a settlement or resolution.

2011abc

‘Only show in town ‘ , Albert Reynolds quote ? Jeez when will this country ever be free of scourge of FF/FG ?And as for seeing Nunan as an asset to teachers ?!

Sir123

2011abc wrote: »

‘Only show in town ‘ , Albert Reynolds quote ? Jeez when will this country ever be free of scourge of FF/FG ?And as for seeing Nunan as an asset to teachers ?!

Exactly, I am sceptical of these "talks" to say the least.

2011abc

Some union official close to retirement appears on a state board in a year or two , those whom they’re meant to represent shafted saving the government tens of millions ...

MrJones1973

2011abc wrote: »

Some union official close to retirement appears on a state board in a year or two , those whom they’re meant to represent shafted saving the government tens of millions ...

I never directly heard of that but I heard that past presidents might get a nice junket to a foreign teacher conference but to be fair I never got direct evidence of that either so perhaps unfair to disparage them? I had great hopes for ED. After SC and him failed to deliver I gave up hope and now I feel much better

History Queen

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I thought that was a very disengenuous post by them. They aren’t talks about having voted no is my understanding. They are general talks related to LPT teachers. we might as well be in (if they’ll let us) to hear what the plan is

Agreed

feardeas

2011abc wrote: »

‘Only show in town ‘ , Albert Reynolds quote ? Jeez when will this country ever be free of scourge of FF/FG ?And as for seeing Nunan as an asset to teachers ?!

When the people vote differently, that's democracy. The paraphrase came from the time of the early days of the peace process before the ceasefire in 1994 but sure yeah everything ever done since independence is bad and we can all look forward to dystopia when our pals in Solidarity/PBP take the helm.