New Junior Cycle

evolving_doors

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I don't know evolving doors... it seems people always come up with "good excuses" not to do it whenever I mention this idea. If it has been done in France, it can be done here. And how much money is being spent on that new JC ?

My point was that it was done here, but somehow the push for 3rd level and an attempt for some social equality both took centre stage (which is good).

That's a very good question on how much is being spent on the new JC.

Mountainsandh wrote: »

It could be started slowly. Look at how the variety and quality of PLC courses has exploded in the last few years ?
As to the societal aspect well, judging by the comments on this newspaper article about apprenticeships, there is a lot of respect for tradesmen these days.
Plus, if we decide to pass on the opportunity to offer certain courses (which could change a young man/woman's life) for fear of encouraging class divide, are we not paradoxically worsening the divide ?

Yes I totally agree but the measure of success is perceived to be the established LC. As someone mentioned above the LCA could be the answer but it's been let go and trundle on for yonks.

Jamfa

evolving_doors wrote: »

That's a very good question on how much is being spent on the new JC.

According to many posters here Junior Cycle reform is a money saving exercise so therefore no money is being spent on it!

Terri26

There is a big difference on the money being saved by the new Junior Cycle reform and how much is currently being spent on implementing it. The implementation is seen as a beginning /once off expense. In the long run it will save a lot of money. The current Junior Cert costs more because of the exam at the end, different levels so different papers, length of exams so correctors are paid more etc.

Jamfa

Terri26 wrote: »

There is a big difference on the money being saved by the new Junior Cycle reform and how much is currently being spent on implementing it. The implementation is seen as a beginning /once off expense. In the long run it will save a lot of money. The current Junior Cert costs more because of the exam at the end, different levels so different papers, length of exams so correctors are paid more etc.

Junior Cycle reform was launched by Ruairi Quinn in 2011 and lots of people accused it of simply being a money saving exercise & part of austerity & from what you're saying the first savings actually won't kick in until after 2021! This must be the first cost cutting exercise by a government that won't cut costs for at least 10 years.

evolving_doors

Jamfa wrote: »

Junior Cycle reform was launched by Ruairi Quinn in 2011 and lots of people accused it of simply being a money saving exercise & part of austerity & from what you're saying the first savings actually won't kick in until after 2021! This must be the first cost cutting exercise by a government that won't cut costs for at least 10 years.

So what is the cost?

Jamfa

evolving_doors wrote: »

So what is the cost?

The JCT support service & reduction in timetables for Professional Time are costing far far more than what will be a small saving by 2022 in the number of JC exams. All subjects will continue to have SEC exams & practical subjects will still have external assessment as before so it's hard to see where there will be much money saved.

evolving_doors

Jamfa wrote: »

The JCT support service & reducation in timetables for Professional Time are costing far far more than what will be a small saving by 2022 in the number of JC exams. All subjects will continue to have SEC exams & practical subjects will still have external assessment as before so it's hard to see where there will be much money saved.

In terms of the preceeding topic It's not so much about how much has been saved, but could this money have been better spent in updating the LCA or JCSP (which also feeds into student satisfaction/mindfulness)?

Jamfa

evolving_doors wrote: »

In terms of the preceeding topic It's not so much about how much has been saved, but could this money have been better spent in updating the LCA or JCSP (which also feeds into student satisfaction/mindfulness)?

The JCSP is being revised as part of JC reform & I agree that money needs to be spent on LCA. The original JC reform proposals have radically changed & any money saving is negligible and the new plans are costing millions more to implement.

spurious

The LCA costs a fortune to assess which is why it will be in the firing line. Terrible pity. When it is done well, as it is in many schools, it's a fantastic course, despite being treated so badly from on high in terms of not updating modules, key assignments etc..

No reason why in conjunction with colleges they could not have had optional 'Maths for College', 'Writing college papers' modules that those hoping to go to college could have done, instead of using the LCA as an excuse to deny them entry to some courses.

acequion

Mountainsandh wrote: »

On the subject of the new JC, I think it's a lot of codswallop, an update to exam procedures and curricula would have been enough.
Instead, the money and manpower would have been better spent designing a system of professional certification at senior secondary school level similar to the French BEPs and CAPs.
There is an article about apprenticeships today in one of the papers. It is evident that there is a need for young and better trained professionals in various trades.

Meanwhile, I see many youngsters who are wasting 2 or 3 years struggling to achieve the current LC, and are often in a situation of failure (with all the mental health and social problems this might entail).

I just wish there was something there for these young people. That would have been a good move, a win-win for everyone. Instead we have the new JC.

I have 3 young nephews in France who were guided towards professional channels at TY level (equivalent). One is now a fully qualified butcher/deli professional, with a well paid full time job. He always knew what he wanted to do. He is 21, and has more than 2 full years of experience at this stage, imagine that.

Another trained in animal husbandry. He has to choose shortly whether he wants to head into vet nursing, breeding, or attempt to find an internship in a zoo/refuge/sanctuary (these are hard to find jobs). At 19 years old, he is much closer to achieving his dream job than if he had gone the Bac Général way. His academic ability was very average, but he has a way with animals. Guess who is feeling great about himself, in spite of not-so-great academic achievements ?
No mental health issues with that young fellow.

The third one was very unsure of what he wanted to do, very immature, up to devilment, no motivation, nudged to a different school after he was repeatedly expelled from the first ... but he was guided towards a machinery technician course, and so far, so good. He likes it a lot better than the more academic branches, and guess what, he hasn't had to be suspended in a while, yay.

Professional branches wouldn't miraculously solve all problems in education, nothing will, but they would really help, and in the process, it is my belief they would have a great impact on mental health.

This is a hugely interesting and informative post,especially for me personally as I have close ties with France. This example of your young nephews typifies common sense in policy making and the consequent difference it makes to a young person's future.

I 100% agree that this new JC is a load of codswallop. I have both 2nd and 3rd year English, both classes with 30 academically very strong students of the G and T variety and I'm far more concerned about keeping their standards up for 5th year than I am about this rubbish JC they'll have to do first.

As for all this talk about costs, I agree that it's ended up costing way more than was previously envisaged but I think that's testament to the stubbornness of the policy makers who at no time would engage or consult with actual teachers who might actually know better.Perish the thought! And I totally agree that this money would be far better spent developing the LCA and allowing it to evolve along the lines of the French system. My school is one of the few with an excellent LCA programme and great success.

And I also fully agree that the chief goal is that the new JC will ultimately save the state a LOT of money, especially as the whole philosophy will eventually spread to LC. The CBAs and SLARs are teacher assessment through the back door, so have no doubt that the goal is to eventually have all assessment in house, with state certification being phased out. So like a tough business venture, it's taking loads of investment up front but down the line there will be profits galore. With neo liberal parties in power and Ireland being hugely indebted what else would you expect?

Meanwhile we teachers have to get on with the farce!

icebergiceberg

Anyone know about CSPE? It has been a one hour a week course so far I believe. Is anything being introduced this year 2017-18?

Icsics

icebergiceberg wrote: »

Anyone know about CSPE? It has been a one hour a week course so far I believe. Is anything being introduced this year 2017-18?

CSPE is not an exam subject for current 1st yrs, but could be counted as a short course AFAIK

mirrorwall14

Junior Cycle subject specific training day today. Once again nowhere near enough breaking down of the actual work we need to do. We did one exercise on creating a plan for one topic. Which ended with us being completely confused, presenters appearing to misunderstand (or deliberately misunderstanding) our need for assistance. Over lunchtime we got things a bit more sorted by ourselves! One of the presenters was incredibly condescending and borderline rude. And again there they are paying multiple people for a full days training in something they are not fully briefed on.

And the NCCA have finally decided to completely take the p*ss with their feedback forms. They cannot claim to be in anyways useful with a scale that has a smiley face on one side, a sad face on the other in case we've missed that its meant to be a scale but the words we circle are:
Very Useful - useful - unsure
Thats it. Nothing else. No negative option at all. Come on?!!!

(I can't remember if useful is the exact word btw)

judeboy101

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Junior Cycle subject specific training day today. Once again nowhere near enough breaking down of the actual work we need to do. We did one exercise on creating a plan for one topic. Which ended with us being completely confused, presenters appearing to misunderstand (or deliberately misunderstanding) our need for assistance. Over lunchtime we got things a bit more sorted by ourselves! One of the presenters was incredibly condescending and borderline rude. And again there they are paying multiple people for a full days training in something they are not fully briefed on.

And the NCCA have finally decided to completely take the p*ss with their feedback forms. They cannot claim to be in anyways useful with a scale that has a smiley face on one side, a sad face on the other in case we've missed that its meant to be a scale but the words we circle are:
Very Useful - useful - unsure
Thats it. Nothing else. No negative option at all. Come on?!!!

(I can't remember if useful is the exact word btw)

What time did it start and finished, I'm due mine next week and we start at 8:45 (start teaching) will the junior cycle training start at same time

rainbowtrout

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Junior Cycle subject specific training day today. Once again nowhere near enough breaking down of the actual work we need to do. We did one exercise on creating a plan for one topic. Which ended with us being completely confused, presenters appearing to misunderstand (or deliberately misunderstanding) our need for assistance. Over lunchtime we got things a bit more sorted by ourselves! One of the presenters was incredibly condescending and borderline rude. And again there they are paying multiple people for a full days training in something they are not fully briefed on.

And the NCCA have finally decided to completely take the p*ss with their feedback forms. They cannot claim to be in anyways useful with a scale that has a smiley face on one side, a sad face on the other in case we've missed that its meant to be a scale but the words we circle are:
Very Useful - useful - unsure
Thats it. Nothing else. No negative option at all. Come on?!!!

(I can't remember if useful is the exact word btw)

That's sending me into meltdown and our training day isn't for another 2 weeks.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

mirrorwall14

judeboy101 wrote: »

What time did it start and finished, I'm due mine next week and we start at 8:45 (start teaching) will the junior cycle training start at same time

We were 915 to 345 but we came back early from lunch and finished about 335/340 or so

And yes Rainbowtrout. If it hadn’t been hometime I would have lost the plot entirely!

rainbowtrout

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We were 915 to 345 but we came back early from lunch and finished about 335/340 or so

And yes Rainbowtrout. If it hadn’t been hometime I would have lost the plot entirely!

Keep your eyes peeled in two weeks time for the 6-1 report on teacher having a meltdown and being arrested for threatening inservice faciliatators, or viral youtube video: Roscommon teacher has meltdown at being asked to unpack and snowball. :pac:

judeboy101

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We were 915 to 345 but we came back early from lunch and finished about 335/340 or so

And yes Rainbowtrout. If it hadn’t been hometime I would have lost the plot entirely!

But what's ur normal starting time, as in do u norm start at 9:15? Just wondering if iv time to drop the kids to school lol

mirrorwall14

judeboy101 wrote: »

But what's ur normal starting time, as in do u norm start at 9:15? Just wondering if iv time to drop the kids to school lol

No we start at 842

mirrorwall14

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Keep your eyes peeled in two weeks time for the 6-1 report on teacher having a meltdown and being arrested for threatening inservice faciliatators, or viral youtube video: Roscommon teacher has meltdown at being asked to unpack and snowball. :pac:

But.... but... All the feedback has been positive on our feedback forms. Clearly the problem is not us

Jamfa

judeboy101 wrote: »

What time did it start and finished, I'm due mine next week and we start at 8:45 (start teaching) will the junior cycle training start at same time

Was it a JCT inservice or NCCA and what subject did you attend? A lot of the facilitators have very little expertise or training and then there’s the issue of many aspects not being clear to anyone.

mirrorwall14

Jamfa wrote: »

Was it a JCT inservice or NCCA and what subject did you attend? A lot of the facilitators have very little expertise or training and then there’s the issue of many aspects not being clear to anyone.

Full day cluster of subject so I assume its NCCA? Its the lack of clarity which is driving me nuts. The English teachers came out furious, apparently they are changing the list of texts already and they are up to their eyes already trying to stay on top of the new course and corrections

acequion

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Full day cluster of subject so I assume its NCCA? Its the lack of clarity which is driving me nuts. The English teachers came out furious, apparently they are changing the list of texts already and they are up to their eyes already trying to stay on top of the new course and corrections

Changing the list of texts!!! Please tell me this is a joke!! Or is somebody joking somewhere!! Sorry for all the exclamations but it's now 360 degrees beyond ridiculous that English teachers are expected to keep teaching different material.

When are they changing them?

Jamfa

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Full day cluster of subject so I assume its NCCA? Its the lack of clarity which is driving me nuts. The English teachers came out furious, apparently they are changing the list of texts already and they are up to their eyes already trying to stay on top of the new course and corrections

Thanks. NCCA don’t do inservice so it must’ve been JCT. Think the English teachers may have gotten wrong info possibly as texts was extended for another year & hasn’t changed since 2014.

Jamfa

acequion wrote: »

Changing the list of texts!!! Please tell me this is a joke!! Or is somebody joking somewhere!! Sorry for all the exclamations but it's now 360 degrees beyond ridiculous that English teachers are expected to keep teaching different material.

When are they changing them?

Relax it’s not until the current 6th class kids start 2nd year in 2019.

acequion

Jamfa wrote: »

Relax it’s not until the current 6th class kids start 2nd year in 2019.

2019 is basically next year! I really don't see anything to "relax" about. I think its outrageous that English teachers are expected to teach ever changing material at senior cycle and now as well,at junior.

I can see the shortage of teachers extending to English teachers in the coming years.

Jamfa

acequion wrote: »

2019 is basically next year! I really don't see anything to "relax" about. I think its outrageous that English teachers are expected to teach ever changing material at senior cycle and now as well,at junior.

I can see the shortage of teachers extending to English teachers in the coming years.

The list changes every year for LC and the current JC list is the same since it was first published in 2013. I really don’t feel it’s something I or my colleagues are much concerned about in comparison to many other issues such as a cut of 1 period per week for each JC English class.

acequion

Jamfa wrote: »

The list changes every year for LC and the current JC list is the same since it was first published in 2013. I really don’t feel it’s something I or my colleagues are much concerned about in comparison to many other issues such as a cut of 1 period per week for each JC English class.

You will be concerned when you're burned out from all the extra work in a few years time.

You make it sound like the list has been in for ages, don't forget that it's only the second cohort being examined this year. It was the same when the LC course changed in 2001,the first list seemed to remain for a while. Pretty fast change became a yearly thing.

And yes the cut of one period per week is indeed another bone of contention.

Jamfa

acequion wrote: »

You will be concerned when you're burned out from all the extra work in a few years time.

You make it sound like the list has been in for ages, don't forget that it's only the second cohort being examined this year. It was the same when the LC course changed in 2001,the first list seemed to remain for a while. Pretty fast change became a yearly thing.

And yes the cut of one period per week is indeed another bone of contention.

We’ve known since 2013 that the list will change every 3 years and at least it has been extended so that’s why I’m definitely not stressing about it at this stage with 2 more years before it’s changed. The list from 2013 had most of the familiar texts such as Romeo & Juliet & TKMB meaning that in 19 of teaching JC English I will not have had to study a new text once!

Lindy17

I agree with the comment above-the workload is changing vastly. Currently I have 66 students in my second and third year classes, the CBA2 (the collection of texts) ensures the students and I are always working on something for their collection of texts every few weeks. Students are drafting and redrafting the same pieces of work and they have stated that they feel a lack of progression. “Are we still doing this?” type comments. Also most students think redraft means correct spelling and grammar errors and it takes time to teach them otherwise. Being honest when I look at the body of work that has to be completed over the two years I feel worried about simultaneously trying to move forward and go back to redraft. I find the correcting becoming as demanding as senior cycle classes. Also the closing date in December for the collection of texts comes at the same time for a lot of schools as Christmas exams. For the last two weeks I’ve been like a headless chicken correcting Christmas exams every spare minute and also redrafts for the collection of texts!