Garda Commissioner Noirin O'Sullivan announces retirement

flutered

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

This is as serious as it gets - it is above a GE.

A body has to be formed to do a total revamp of the force - there is 10 to 15 years work in it.

if there is political willingness it can be done away faster, had the politicos info on the cops or has the cops info on the politicos, i would thing the latter, look at the way callinan carried on, like an roman emperor of old

celt262

Carla4garda should be the new commissioner.

Ace2007

Thea Nervous Woodpecker wrote: »

If it's do good I expect to see you posting that you've applied for the next competition and accepted an offer.

What competition are you on about?

I also said it's a reason why those is PS won't leave.

flutered

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The thing I don't like is that nowadays the job of Garda Commissioners is to be the scapegoat. She never got a chance to actually change the force ethos and implement any changes.

We are doomed to just accepting Garda issues for which the solution is to call on the resignation or subtle forced retirement of the chief.

did she want to, what efforts did she make, not many, quick with the usual i will change things, how many buddys got promotions to super and chief super on the eve of the new appointment laws

Sierra Oscar

flutered wrote: »

kathleen o toole rubber stamped her appointment, dont be suprised if she is not a contender this time

I reckon she could be a contender, although why would she leave her position as Chief of Police at Seattle Police Department? It pays significantly more than the position of Garda Commissioner (even though there are 16,000 people in An Garda Síochána compared to 1,300 in Seattle Police Department) and it would require moving back to Ireland on a full time basis.

Kathleen O'Toole is chairing the 'root and branch' review of the Gardaí so that could be enough for her. Interestingly, she was on radio recently and pushed back at the idea of establishing a stand-alone intelligence agency. I suspect the review will instead recommend enhancing the Directorate of Military Intelligence.

Ursus Horribilis

MadYaker wrote: »

I'd be surprised if anyone outside of AGS or Ireland will be interested in taking this job. Especially not for 180k a year. It seems a bit of a poisoned chalice. I don't think the commissioner was the problem, or if she was she's just the tip of the iceberg.

The culture of the Gardai needs to be changed from the bottom up. That's easier said than done, when there appears to be a culture of omerta and not stepping out of line in the organisation. There's an arrogance there and a sense of impunity. All you have to do is look at what was done to Maurice McCabe even after he blew the whistle. The consequences for anyone who dares stray from the consensus are dire.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Most likely advised by the government to quit, once gone the media and opposition parties will have no one to pester and a little breathing space can be gained by all concerned.

Spanish Eyes

Watching her at the Committee in the Dail sucking up to her boss Callinan was just awful, I knew right then what she would become.

But he got away scot free just the same didn't he?

4ensic15

4ensic15 wrote: »

It is simply not feasible for a team of outsiders to come in and take every senior job over. There is a report in today's paper that two senior officers wouldn't speak directly to O sullivan. This meant she couldn't conduct a management meeting. How would an outsider cope with that nonsense?

Insubordination is grounds for instant dismissal in most organisations.

Are Am Eye wrote: »

Yeah it is feasible. Anyone refusing to communicate in regard to work matters is not doing their job and should be dealt with through internal disciplinary mechanisms. The very feasible new management will be utilising those mechanisms a lot, for all sorts of things.

You got there before me.

Anyone who tolerates that level of insubordination is not capable of doing the job - and I'm usually very pro workers rights - but there's a point where it goes beyond a joke, and insubordination is several steps beyond that point, imo.

kowloon

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

"An RyanSiochana - the low cost police force".

It's free to ring the police but there are added extras if you want them to do something.

€20 to respond to an incident.
€25 to take a statement.
€100 penalty if you didnt order the cop online and print out your complaint.

The Garda magazine in the back of the squad car next to the life jacket and catalogue of perfume and watches available to buy at the station.
I could go for this.

Muahahaha

flutered wrote: »

was she not approached and ran as in fast and quickly

Would like to hear more about this, is it on the public record somewhere? Tbh it wouldnt surprise me if Nuala OLoan ran a mile. She is a reformist and managers like her do not take those positions unless they know they have political back-up. In the case of Northern Ireland she did have that in the form of the Good Friday Agreement and all sides agreed that the RUC needed reform. In the case of AGS lots may say reform is needed but behind the scenes they are doing their level best to prevent it happening.

btw I like others I think the salary of 180k is too low. It should be closer to 250k with performance & target related bonuses to attract the right talent. The problem with that though is then all the Assistant Commisoners in the Park will want more and it is actually that level that needs to be dealt with first on any path to reform in AGS.

uck51js9zml2yt

Ace2007 wrote: »

What competition are you on about?

I also said it's a reason why those is PS won't leave.

Plenty of jobs in the public sector at the moment, all advertised.

rangler1

Thea Nervous Woodpecker wrote: »

If it's do good I expect to see you posting that you've applied for the next competition and accepted an offer.

I don't and wouldn't mind it being a handy number if we were getting a service that did justice to the taxes we we have to pay.
People forget that all the money that ends up as tax originates from the private sector and that's a very small pool now.
Every hundred million that's wasted by PS is probably costing every private sector worker €100

tigger123

It will be fascinating to see how this goes; does Noirin's replacement come in and pick up where she left off in the reform programme (at which point the criticism will be that nothing has really changed), or do they start with someone completly new, with their own reform programme (at which point the whole thing is kicked down the road).

Either way, there's no way the Government knew about this. Charlie Flanagan gave an interview in yesterday's Sunday Independent that gave zero indication that he knew this was coming.

Quite embarrassing for the government really; they spent the last few years defending her and then she resigns.

Ace2007

Thea Nervous Woodpecker wrote: »

Plenty of jobs in the public sector at the moment, all advertised.

And what's your point?

I said those in the public sector already won't leave it for the reasons given. I didn't say they were reasons to join.

Private: more money now and more opportunities and less hassle v small pension later in life

Public: less money less opportunities more hassle, constantly striking and complaining, v bigger pension later in life in comparison to private sector.

Beechwoodspark

tigger123 wrote: »

It will be fascinating to see how this goes; does Noirin's replacement come in and pick up where she left off in the reform programme (at which point the criticism will be that nothing has really changed), or do they start with someone completly new, with their own reform programme (at which point the whole thing is kicked down the road).

Either way, there's no way the Government knew about this. Charlie Flanagan gave an interview in yesterday's Sunday Independent that gave zero indication that he knew this was coming.

Quite embarrassing for the government really; they spent the last few years defending her and then she resigns.

CF just said on RTÉ radio that he knew her resignation was a possibility but he kept it confidential. Mary Lou is on now and she says she suspects there are further revelations to come out and this story isn't over with the resignation of the commissioner

McMurphy

John Downing in this morning's Indo.

But it also comes at a political price because Fine Gael, traditionally the party of law and order, has been mired in problems about policing for the past four years, and has been damaged by the loss a number of key personnel.

The O’Sullivan resignation means the loss of a second consecutive Garda Commissioner, following the enforced early retirement of Martin Callinan in March 2014.

The most senior official in the Justice Department, secretary general Brian Purcell, stood down weeks after Commissioner Callinan stood down. The Justice Minister and Fine Gael TD, Alan Shatter, was then forced to resign in May 2014

All of the Government had invested a great deal of their political credibility in Nn O'Sullivan continuing as Garda Commissioner. This was despite the large volume of controversy which engulfed her, and loud calls across all opposition parties for her to be removed from office.

Justice Minister, Charlie Flanagan, has said steps will be taken to appoint a successor as quickly as is possible. But her departure now means he must face the brunt of fallout from controversies on falsified garda breath tests, wrongful motoring convictions, financial irregularities at the Garda Training College, and the ill treatment of garda whistleblowers.

Ms O’Sullivan’s snap resignation does not banish any of those critical policing problems.

This ain't over by a long shot.

snowflaker

FG being lectured on Law and Order by SF must be galling for them!
At least the PC knew when to go...
How long is gurry leader now?

Ace2007

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

CF just said on RTÉ radio that he knew her resignation was a possibility but he kept it confidential. Mary Lou is on now and she says she suspects there are further revelations to come out and this story isn't over with the resignation of the commissioner

And yet Mary Lou won't reveal these "revelations" now because there is no political gain to as the commissioner is now gone, watch this die down for a while and then a year or two down the line something will come out.

As I said yesterday it's just a political football - antu government parties don't want the issue solved - they just want to use it to attack the government in power.

If an outside person is appointed the one good thing would be that they couldn't be forced out by historic issues like the ones that basically have led to this commissioner retiring.

tigger123

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

CF just said on RTÉ radio that he knew her resignation was a possibility but he kept it confidential. Mary Lou is on now and she says she suspects there are further revelations to come out and this story isn't over with the resignation of the commissioner

I heard that too, I just don't buy it though. The resignation makes FG look bad, and like they don't have any control over a situation that the public is seriously p*ssed off about. The shock resignation is costing them political capital. If they did know I imagine they would have leaked it already and get ahead of the story.

It's also interesting in terms of Friday's headline in the Irish Times, that Minister's are worried that there are far more scandals due to surface, ie, that this isnt the end of it all.

In then the end though, the Government couldn't make her stay. She has her time done and wants to move on.

McMurphy

snowflaker wrote: »

FG being lectured on Law and Order by SF must be galling for them!
At least the PC knew when to go...
How long is gurry leader now?

Whataboutery up there.

Maybe if Noirin and the guards spent more time actually policing, you know - actually fighting crime instead of smearing whistleblowers, falsifying breath tests, becoming embroiled in financial irregularities down in Templemore, acting as private security guards for DOB, and revenue collector for the same gov't, the shinners wouldn't have anything to throw at FG?

Abu94

Please don't dare to insult the God Commander OSulivahn or you will face the ban!

Ace2007

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Whataboutery up there.

Maybe if Noirin and the guards spent more time actually policing, you know - actually fighting crime instead of falsifying breath tests, becoming embroiled in financial irregularities down in Templemore, acting as private security guards for DOB, and revenue collector for the same gov't, the shinners wouldn't have anything to throw at FG?

How could she spend timing policing when she's dragged up on every enquiry?

The reports into Tenplemore date back to 2008 - nearly 10 years ago - long before she was commissioner - but sure lets drag it up now and use as ammunition.

Breath tests - again this is over an extended period - majority of which she wasn't comminssioner.

Why not look at something that went wrong solely when she was commissioner. If the next commissioner is from within - are you going to throw all this crap at him/her as well and expect them to fix it overnight?

Guards are revenue collectors now? Never seen that before - so send on some links for that role.

yourdeadwright

This will make zero difference to us as a state, The real problem lies with the justice system in Ireland, until that is changed we could have Commissioner Gordan and thing s will remain the same.
The Garda are the easy target , the public always going on about them not protecting us, but then you see lads weekly with 40 plus charges walking free out of court, You have to acknowledge its the Garda that have caught them the 40 plus  times but its the justice system and judges that allow them to walk free, Criminals have nothing to fear when they are caught ,

tayto lover

Nothing will change until the Government are no longer permitted to appoint -

1. The high ranking Garda Commissioners.
2. The head of the Army.
3. The Judges.

The sheep dog is always trained by the shepherd and will do his bidding.

Ace2007

tayto lover wrote: »

Nothing will change until the Government are no longer permitted to appoint -

1. The high ranking Garda Commissioners.
2. The head of the Army.
3. The Judges.

The sheep dog is always trained by the shepherd and will do his bidding.

So who do you want to be able to appoint these positions?

tayto lover

Ace2007 wrote: »

So who do you want to be able to appoint these positions?

An independent Board made up from the business community and other Police organisations from around the world.

Sierra Oscar

tayto lover wrote: »

Nothing will change until the Government are no longer permitted to appoint -

1. The high ranking Garda Commissioners.
2. The head of the Army.
3. The Judges.

The sheep dog is always trained by the shepherd and will do his bidding.

Erm, you do realise that the Government no longer has a role in appointing senior Gardaí? The independent Policing Authority has sole responsibility for making these appointments.

You also don't seem to be aware that Nóirín O'Sullivan was appointed following an independent recruitment process conducted by the Public Appointments Service.

tayto lover wrote: »

An independent Board made up from the business community and other Police organisations from around the world.

That is exactly what happened for Nóirín's appointment.

Maidhci

It seems to me that Nóirín O'Sullivan, in her resignation statement, was looking for an apology for being asked to publicly account for the dysfunctionality, corrupt culture and actions etc. etc. that exist and has existed in AGS for several years and which she, as Commissioner and Assistant Commissioner, promoted, contributed to and presided over for several years. That sums up the attitude of AGS senior management. I do not think we are going to see any change to that if an internal appointment is made.

Ineedaname

I dunno what Regina Doherty is smoking but I want some.

https://twitter.com/ReginaDo/status/906891385248382976

smurgen

hey get back to work plebs! Noirin's pension and lump sum payment isn't going to pay itself!

baylah17

Ineedaname wrote: »

I dunno what Regina Doherty is smoking but I want some.

https://twitter.com/ReginaDo/status/906891385248382976

Well Regina does owe her a favour, sure dint the commish send some of the heavy gang up to the airport to detain and bully one of Reginas critics!
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2017/0706/888386-ruth-coppinger/

tayto lover

baylah17 wrote: »

Well Regina does owe her a favour, sure dint the commish send some of the heavy gang up to the airport to detain and bully one of Reginas critics!
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2017/0706/888386-ruth-coppinger/

Ah FFS Ruth Coppinger :pac:

Ineedaname

Ineedaname wrote: »

I dunno what Regina Doherty is smoking but I want some.

https://twitter.com/ReginaDo/status/906891385248382976

I don't.

I can't stand women who think they should automatically defend other women, without considering merit.

We had the same happening in the US with Clinton. (Not that I'm a fan of Trump, either. I think they were both very poor candidates.)

It's reverse sexism, and clear evidence of a lack of any form of thought process.

I'd be one of the first to defend a woman who was being victimised just for being female.
In the absence of sexual discrimination, though, Nóirín O Sullivan is not deserving of support just because she is a woman - nor should she be!

_Kaiser_

She's getting the lump sum alright..

Former Garda Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan will retire with a lump sum of close to €300,000 and a pension of €90,000 a year - despite leaving the post halfway through her tenure.

Sources said her time as acting commissioner following the resignation of her predecessor Martin Callinan in 2014 would help her qualify for a full pension.

Worth every penny I'm sure!

Ineedaname

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

She's getting the lump sum alright..



Worth every penny I'm sure!

Why am I not surprised?

Nettle Soup

The whole thing stinks. She brazenly stayed on just to get full pension entitlements. Disgusting but typical of our self serving elite. Did she achieve anything?
Her parting words were essentially a complaint for being held accountable. Unbelievable.

2 corrupt commissioners gone and the Gardai only getting worse.

Prezatch

Absolutely disgraceful

Retiring at the age of 55, assume she lives til 95 that's 40 years worth of pension @ 90k = 3.6 million + 300k lump sum cost to the state. And for what exactly?

3 years after the breathe test allegations from April 2014 and no progress made - the allegations only got worse as it deepened. I don't understand how Leo Varadker can still stand by her

Are Am Eye

Prezatch wrote: »

This is not correct. Gardai can retire on full pension from age 50 and after 30 years service. She had 36 years service

Higher pensions attach to higher ranks.
You must three years at the rank to get the higher pension.
Also Comm is the only rank in AGS where the lump sum is not set figure. Other ranks receive a lump sum as a percentage of pay. The Commissioner's is negotiated with her employer on retirement. It's always been that way. An extra incentive to keep in line and support the political masters.

Knex*

Whatever about the salaries for these public servant positions, the pensions are absolutely insane.

bleary

To be honest I thought she just had enough .

She obviously had huge amounts of opposition with the force . She cleaned out some of that moving a number of people to traffic including calinnans press guy and another senior officer who protested the move and eventually resigned.
On the other side she had Sinn Fein accusing her of being a hostile witness and grilling her for hours . And then alan kelly who never misses an opportunity to grandstand and tell everyone else what they are doing wrong. Ex minister for housing as he was.
Finally the government who appear to have leaked her application for a new job in order to damage her further.
I think her resignation is called a good luck and f×#@ you.
Can't blame her. She's certainly not without failings but I reckon she has performed more public service in her 36 years than the majority of her critics.

SEPT 23 1989

I work in the private sector and want to retire at 55 on 90k a year

how much of my earnings will i have to put in to receive this?

Ace2007

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I work in the private sector and want to retire at 55 on 90k a year

how much of my earnings will i have to put in to receive this?

you'll probably need close to 2.5m in a DC fund if retiring today

Edit: that was at age 65 - if you want to go at 55 - i'm guessing maybe 2.8/2.9m

Potential-Monke

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I work in the private sector and want to retire at 55 on 90k a year

how much of my earnings will i have to put in to receive this?

You only have to do 33 years as a Garda and climb to the rank of Commissioner. Not agreeing with the pension, but that's how you can get it.

In the public sector? Run a company that has over 10,000 employees?

Ace2007

Knex. wrote: »

Whatever about the salaries for these public servant positions, the pensions are absolutely insane.

Salaries are linked to pensions - so if your happy about the salaries it just flows through really. It's like any profession those at the top get huge pensions cause of their salaries.

If the government wanted to stop the big pensions and saved billions annually in years to come - it would be simple - close all DB schemes to future accrual and open enrol everyone into DC schemes - of course the unions would be out in arms over that, and be striking all the time. Hence wont' be done and instead folk will just have to give out about it not being fair that these big pensions are paid out in the PS.

Also to add - say an ordinary teacher retires at age 65, with salary of 50k - they also get lump sum - probably 75k and pension of 25k p.a.

in comparison to a private sector worker in a DC scheme - the pension of 25k - would cost them over 700k to get. just to show it's not just the golden pensions that are worth big money - all PS DB pensions are.

Prezatch

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I work in the private sector and want to retire at 55 on 90k a year

how much of my earnings will i have to put in to receive this?

According to the Bank of Ireland pension provider New Ireland, if you started at 25 and finished at 55 you would need to save 3,590 per month :pac:

Good luck with that!

http://www.newireland.ie/pension-calculator/

Ace2007

Prezatch wrote: »

According to the Bank of Ireland pension provider New Ireland, if you started at 25 and finished at 55 you would need to save 3,590 per month :pac:

Good luck with that!

http://www.newireland.ie/pension-calculator/

not really sure how that calculator works - but that seems very low, be roughly 30:1 - depending if fixed/level pension etc.

Are Am Eye

Ace2007 wrote: »

It's like any profession those at the top get huge pensions cause of their salaries.

Those at the top of other professions when multi million euro financial malfeasance is brought to their attention report it to the proper authorities, deal with it in a timely and efficient manner and don't issue threats to colleagues who aren't part of the cover up.

I don't object to the financial return from the position. But it is a job for a responsible, accomplished professional. Not a dishonest, waffling bluffer.

eigrod

Are Am Eye wrote: »

Those at the top of other professions when multi million euro financial malfeasance is brought to their attention report it to the proper authorities, deal with it in a timely and efficient manner and don't issue threats to colleagues who aren't part of the cover up.

You think that happened in the banking sector ? Ever ?

Are Am Eye

eigrod wrote: »

You think that happened in the banking sector ? Ever ?

Are you talking about people committing alleged fraud or other people who knew about it. Which bank? Are you talking about reckless lending or actual fraud? Site the person aside from the offender who knew about it and did not report it.