Garda Commissioner Noirin O'Sullivan announces retirement

Floppybits

Are Am Eye wrote: »

Ace2007 wrote: »

It's like any profession those at the top get huge pensions cause of their salaries.

Those at the top of other professions when multi million euro financial malfeasance is brought to their attention report it to the proper authorities, deal with it in a timely and efficient manner and don't issue threats to colleagues who aren't part of the cover up.

I don't object to the financial return from the position. But it is a job for a responsible, accomplished professional. Not a dishonest, waffling bluffer.

Unfortunately that is all we seem to produce in this country are dishonest, Waffling Bluffers.  Also the fact that the Garda Commissioners job is sacrosanct is stupid, no job should be sacrosanct, if they are not doing the job then they should be fired simple as that.  
What has happened here is that there was no more time for O'Sullivan to play with and she has bailed. There is a report out next week from the Policing Authority and I reckon that contains some shocking revelations and O'Sullivan got out before it was published. Now she doesn't have to answer any questions.

_Kaiser_

Prezatch wrote: »

I don't understand how Leo Varadker can still stand by her

I don't understand how anyone thought Leo would be different.

He's the ultimate populist. Far more concerned about being liked and popular on social media, than an effective leader which this country so badly needs at a time of severe domestic crisis (housing, health, policing) and huge external challenges like Brexit, the migrant situation, and the knock-on effect these will have on the EU/Europe itself.

It seems as though O'Sullivan has simply run down the clock here to get full pension "entitlements" and a huge lump sum for the string of failures and scandals that emerged under her watch - and I don't buy the excuse that some of these occurred before she was Commissioner. She's been part of senior management there for a long time, and ultimately the buck stops with her.

But our current Government is even more ineffective than the last on matters like this it seems - I fully expect her successor to be another insider, or some sort of hanger-on.. all to make it LOOK like something has changed, without ACTUALLY changing (reforming) things.

Ace2007

Are Am Eye wrote: »

Those at the top of other professions when multi million euro financial malfeasance is brought to their attention report it to the proper authorities, deal with it in a timely and efficient manner and don't issue threats to colleagues who aren't part of the cover up.

I don't object to the financial return from the position. But it is a job for a responsible, accomplished professional. Not a dishonest, waffling bluffer.

Really? VW emission scandal - CEO knew about it for over a year - did nothing, JPMorgan CEO has stood over mutli-billion dollar scandals, Irish banks - mortgage scandals - how many CEO are getting the sack of Irish banks over charging?

You seem to think that what Norean did was unique - the difference maybe was that she wasn't strong enough to ride out the wave of criticism and attacks that she's getting.

In fact, the simple reason why she's being attacked is because the whole thing is a political football. Anti Government parties know there is little the government can do about the banking cover-up's so they leave them be. They also know that the public are not happy about the garda for various reason. You don't see the level of attacks when it comes to scandals in the HSE - no accountability there - huge waiting lists etc. - but nurses are seen as being the good guys (while guards are the bad guys), so little pressure is put on as the public wont' be so supportive.

Are Am Eye

Ace2007 wrote: »

Really? VW emission scandal - CEO knew about it for over a year - did nothing, JPMorgan CEO has stood over mutli-billion dollar scandals, Irish banks - mortgage scandals - how many CEO are getting the sack of Irish banks over charging?

You seem to think that what Norean did was unique - the difference maybe was that she wasn't strong enough to ride out the wave of criticism and attacks that she's getting.

In fact, the simple reason why she's being attacked is because the whole thing is a political football. Anti Government parties know there is little the government can do about the banking cover-up's so they leave them be. They also know that the public are not happy about the garda for various reason. You don't see the level of attacks when it comes to scandals in the HSE - no accountability there - huge waiting lists etc. - but nurses are seen as being the good guys (while guards are the bad guys), so little pressure is put on as the public wont' be so supportive.

Good to see you've withdrawn from your position that she was an innocent angel parachuted in to a bad police force. Now you're defending her by saying other bad people have existed. That's a great endorsement.
Yes we had VW emissions, we had Genghis Khan. None of that shields anyone from scrutiny. Or "attacks" as you put it, laughably.

Ace2007

Are Am Eye wrote: »

Good to see you've withdrawn from your position that she was an innocent angel parachuted in to a bad police force. Now you're defending her by saying other bad people have existed. That's a great endorsement.
Yes we had VW emissions, we had Genghis Khan. None of that shields anyone from scrutiny. Or "attacks" as you put it, laughably.

Whose defending her? I said that she wasn't strong enough to stay on board, what had happened isn't defendable - but by your logic no one that is in the garda now can ever hold the commissioner role as it's implied that because she's from the inside she would have known everything that happened regardless whether she was the commissioner when it happened. Good luck finding someone external that will take on the role for the same money. It's pretty much like any senior role in the PS - you don't pay private sector rates, you can't expect to get the very best/strongest candidate.

There is Scrutiny but what's happening isn't scrutiny it's political football - do you think it's a coincidence that the latest issue was revealed the day she came back from holidays and not during her 5 weeks off??

Do you think it's a coincidence that SF and other anti government parties are saying there are more revelations to come - yet they are not telling us now what they are - kinda like wait and see who next commissioner and dig the stuff up then.

Are Am Eye

Ace2007 wrote: »

Whose defending her? I said that she wasn't strong enough to stay on board, what had happened isn't defendable - but by your logic no one that is in the garda now can ever hold the commissioner role as it's implied that because she's from the inside she would have known everything that happened regardless whether she was the commissioner when it happened. Good luck finding someone external that will take on the role for the same money. It's pretty much like any senior role in the PS - you don't pay private sector rates, you can't expect to get the very best/strongest candidate.

You continue to portray her as an innocent spectator.
When she was informed of millions gone missing in Templemore she did not notify the Minister as she is legally obliged to do. Threatened her head of HR who was trying to flag the situation with the urgency it absolutely demanded. She is up to her neck in the shenanigans that went on with Dave Taylor and Maurice McCabe. Lost two mobile phones to cover her tracks.

What you say about not being able to get external candidates is BS.
Of course you can. The govt would prefer another of their pets be promoted from within the force. That may well happen. But if there was a will to get the right person for the job then the right person could be got.

nice_guy80

will the husband go as well I wonder?

Ace2007

Are Am Eye wrote: »

You continue to portray her as an innocent spectator.
When she was informed of millions gone missing in Templemore she did not notify the Minister as she is legally obliged to do. Threatened her head of HR who was trying to flag the situation with the urgency it absolutely demanded. She is up to her neck in the shenanigans that went on with Dave Taylor and Maurice McCabe. Lost two mobile phones to cover her tracks.

What you say about not being able to get external candidates is BS.
Of course you can. The govt would prefer another of their pets be promoted from within the force. That may well happen. But if there was a will to get the right person for the job then the right person could be got.

You need to learn to read what posters say not what you think they say. I said they wouldn't be able to get the best candidates for the job as they won't pay, not that they can't get anyone external. In addition - if your an external candidate and you see the abuse and crap that the last 2 had to put up with - would you really want to take the job?

nice_guy80 wrote: »

will the husband go as well I wonder?

Why would he? just cause he's related to her?

SEPT 23 1989

nice_guy80 wrote: »

will the husband go as well I wonder?

After an exhaustive search of candidates the government are delighted to announce the appointment of Mr O'Sullivan as the new Garda Commissioner

Are Am Eye

Ace2007 wrote: »

You need to learn to read what posters say not what you think they say. I said they wouldn't be able to get the best candidates for the job as they won't pay, not that they can't get anyone external. In addition - if your an external candidate and you see the abuse and crap that the last 2 had to put up with - would you really want to take the job?

I read the posts. I read the post you copied that point from. It's groundless speculation. Back it up. You don't know how many candidates they'll get. Of course they must set the right level of remuneration to get the right people. If you actually read the posts you would see my earlier point that to do otherwise is a false economy as the state ends up paying hundreds of millions in Tribunal costs, Judicial enquiries and other public investigations.

Once again you seek to describe NOS as some innocent angel subject to "abuse" and "crap". Wrong. She was properly held up to public scrutiny for her poor performance and dishonesty. We don't want any similar charlatans applying for the job, and candidates with any normal and base level of ethics and professionalism will have nothing to fear from scrutiny.

Ace2007

Are Am Eye wrote: »

Once again you seek to describe NOS as some innocent angel subject to "abuse" and "crap". Wrong. She was properly held up to public scrutiny for her poor performance and dishonesty. We don't want any similar charlatans applying for the job, and candidates with any normal and base level of ethics and professionalism will have nothing to fear from scrutiny.

And again you refuse to read my posts, I never said she was innocent. Whether she is innocent or not, she shouldn't have to deal with all the crap by the media - the public accounts committee have basically led to 2 commissioners resigning, and the force no better off.

Does the Media attack the Director General of the HSE for the under performing, for the never ending long waiting lists, for the countless waste of tax payers money, the "Grace" case etc. Nope never to the same extend - so why than attack the commissioner of the Gardai? Pretty much everyone knows who NOS is - ask how many is the head of the HSE - and most people won't know.

A commissioner should be given time to sort out the mess - these things take time. One poster yesterday said it will take 10/15 years.

Suppose they get a new external international nominated commissioner:

Will you accept for that person to be paid approx. 250k a year for instance and spend the majority of time in front of the public accounts committee answering historic issues, or will you let him get on with the issue to sort out the organisation from top to bottom?

Are Am Eye

Ace2007 wrote: »

And again you refuse to read my posts, I never said she was innocent. Whether she is innocent or not, she shouldn't have to deal with all the crap by the media - the public accounts committee have basically led to 2 commissioners resigning, and the force no better off.

Does the Media attack the Director General of the HSE for the under performing, for the never ending long waiting lists, for the countless waste of tax payers money, the "Grace" case etc. Nope never to the same extend - so why than attack the commissioner of the Gardai? Pretty much everyone knows who NOS is - ask how many is the head of the HSE - and most people won't know.

A commissioner should be given time to sort out the mess - these things take time. One poster yesterday said it will take 10/15 years.

Suppose they get a new external international nominated commissioner:

Will you accept for that person to be paid approx. 250k a year for instance and spend the majority of time in front of the public accounts committee answering historic issues, or will you let him get on with the issue to sort out the organisation from top to bottom?

You continue to remove her from blame. You talk about her sorting out a mess. Like as if someone else did something wrong and not her. So yes. You are saying she is an angel.

You keep talking about people "attacking" her.
Was she mugged recently?

The Justice Commitee and the PAC commitee asked her legitimate questions. By and large she ducked, dived and waffled. No attacks, just a failed attempt to bring her to account for her disgraceful conduct in her job.

Ace2007

Are Am Eye wrote: »

You continue to remove her from blame. You talk about her sorting out a mess. Like as if someone else did something wrong and not her. So yes. You are saying she is an angel.

You keep talking about people "attacking" her.
Was she mugged recently?

The Justice Commitee and the PAC commitee asked her legitimate questions. By and large she ducked, dived and waffled. No attacks, just a failed attempt to bring her to account for her disgraceful conduct in her job.

Just going to leave it cause you don't want to listen.

Verbal attacked - just look at the media - everyday. The minister of Justice doesn't get as much as she does.

Her job was to sort it out - you can't hold her accountable if you don't allow her the opportunity to sort it out surely?

Why hasn't the PAC held the head of the HSE accountable in the same manner when much worse has happened? Did you ever ask yourself that.

It's simple a political football and an easy target to get public support.

McMurphy

Ace2007 wrote: »

so why than attack the commissioner of the Gardai?

Just a wild guess here, but it's probably because Noirin was a high ranking member of the organisation for almost twenty years, literally a member of the "old guard".

As stated to yourself earlier, Noirin was sat next to Callinan when he described whistle blowers as "disgusting", and the subsequent smear campaign that took place afterwards, happened under her watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZn_TdjvF-U

She claimed she had no idea that the smear campaign was taking place, despite it being reportedly wide spread, which if true made her position untenable.

Or she did know about it, and turned a blind eye. Which made her position untenable.

I also heard Mick Clifford (a few weeks ago) allege that journalist Paul Williams had a few "scoops" on Maurice McCabe. Oftentimes showing up with a photographer who just happened to be Noirins son to report and interview on the allegations being made about him.



If true, I'd guess it was entirely coincidental, because it's not like O'Sullivan and Williams were close.




You seem to think she has been hard done by because the press and others seemed to want to hold her accountable for various scandals that took place within the organisation she was a senior high ranking member of, and undoubtedly had some knowledge of, and in fact some of which happened under her tenure.

Will.i.am.not

longshanks wrote: »

I don't know was it brass balls of just a good old fashioned neck like a jockeys bollox.
Either way she should have been gone long ago.
It'll be interesting to see what Leo and the rest who kept backing her have to say.

Balls I'd say .. she looks more like a Norris O'Sullivan

Will.i.am.not

The government say it didn't know it was happening did she not apply for a job ,at Europol ..that tells me it was jump ship on the cards .

Are Am Eye

Ace2007 wrote: »

Her job was to sort it out .

This is where you're going wrong. You think somebody else did something. Sort out "it". Whatever this "it" is, it's something someone else did. The bad guards.
Unlike the head of the HSE, Ms O'Sullivan was accused of a number of deficiencies in her conduct of her office. She refused to provide any reasonable explanation for her actions and her position became untenable.

Ace2007

We now have an acting commissioner in place until one is appointed - will he be held equally accountable as NOS was - as he too was there through the whole thing, when NOS was on holidays why wasn't he asked about all the scandels - why did we wait for NOS to come back? After all we want to get to the bottom of it don't we - or did people just want NOS out.

Ace2007

Are Am Eye wrote: »

This is where you're going wrong. You think somebody else did something. Sort out "it". Whatever this "it" is, it's something someone else did. The bad guards.
Unlike the head of the HSE, Ms O'Sullivan was accused of a number of deficiencies in her conduct of her office. She refused to provide any reasonable explanation for her actions and her position became untenable.

I think you'll see that the head of the HSE has been found to give false evidence to the PAC in the past on very serious issues, it's been found that they handed out millions in contracts without going through the correct tendering process and you'll see that he's still in his job and there wasn't half as much media attention about it or uproar - as seeing by your comments.

Are Am Eye

Ace2007 wrote: »

I think you'll see that the head of the HSE has been found to give false evidence to the PAC in the past on very serious issues, it's been found that they handed out millions in contracts without going through the correct tendering process and you'll see that he's still in his job and there wasn't half as much media attention about it or uproar - as seeing by your comments.

Yes because O'Brien is in the position that you are trying to say NOS is in. Overseeing other peoples mistakes and answering questions to pac on other peoples mistakes.
NOS was herself an active participant in the scandals she is accused of.

Muahahaha

Ace2007 wrote: »

How could she spend timing policing when she's dragged up on every enquiry?

The reports into Tenplemore date back to 2008 - nearly 10 years ago - long before she was commissioner - but sure lets drag it up now and use as ammunition.

Eh she was head of HR for the Gardai, based out of Templemore. She also sat on the very audit committee that signed off on the dodgy accounts

Breath tests - again this is over an extended period - majority of which she wasn't comminssioner.

The recent reports on breath tests examined four years of data. She was Commissioner for three of these years and Deputy Commissioner for one.


Another little known nugget about Noirin was that she was based in Dublin 12 back in the late 1980s. In her role there she was part of a task force to take down a local criminal whose name was Christy Kinahan. Roll on 30 years and Christy Kinahan is one of the largest drug dealers in Europe and supposedly worth 1 billion euros. I guess that mission didnt work out too good for Noirin either.

TallGlass

Ace2007 wrote: »

Will you accept for that person to be paid approx. 250k a year for instance and spend the majority of time in front of the public accounts committee answering historic issues, or will you let him get on with the issue to sort out the organisation from top to bottom?

Sorry to cut in here, but for 250k I don't see why the person cannot be on the ball able to attend these meetings and get on with running the Gardaí. The person is a CEO, they need to be able to delegate tasks to people below to get the job done and get feedback via metrics. It's how it works in any other company.

The role of commissioner shouldn't be immediately thought of as someone who must have a police background, it would be a nice to have in my eyes. But you need someone in the positions first and foremost with experience in running a large organisation at either CEO, MD or Director level.

In saying that, look at how most public service organisation with a high number of staff are run, it's shambolic in all honesty. I think it's beyond the realms of Irish people to run a public organisation correctly or without some type of scandal at the end of it. We can't even seem to run charity's without a scandal coming out FFS.

The HSE is a complete sham and hiding in the shadows of the AGS **** show at the moment and keeping the heads down, mean while running into a financial black hole and a free for all.

Irish Rail, is going tits up along with Bus Eireann following closely behind.

This AGS role is toxic if you ask me, if I was a CEO with experience you'd want to be fairly confident in your ability going into that role or you'll be burnt like a hot bun.

There are certain public servants that do what they want and as they want and are allowed to cause chaos, this feeds onto others who do a good job. I think in all honesty, managers in the public service from the bottom to the top, need to learn how to sack people, that bit of fear that you may loose your job if you fúck up is good, it keeps you on your toes.

Mr.Micro

The Government needs to bring in civilians now to run an Garda, even military people to help structure and implement discipline and accounability. Not going to happen. A replacement will be picked from the rotten apple barrel and we will carry on as before.

Panthro

Papers this morning saying the wage would have to be upped to 300,000 to attract foreign interest.
Have we nobody on the island capable of doing an honest days work?!

LuckyLloyd

Panthro wrote: »

Papers this morning saying the wage would have to be upped to 300,000 to attract foreign interest.
Have we nobody on the island capable of doing an honest days work?!

If you pay relative peanuts, you get relative monkeys.

Nettle Soup

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If you pay relative peanuts, you get relative monkeys.

Yeah but for NOS' salary and pension, I don't think we deserved utter incompetence and corruption.

Seth Brundle

Panthro wrote: »

Papers this morning saying the wage would have to be upped to 300,000 to attract foreign interest.
Have we nobody on the island capable of doing an honest days work?!

What you are looking for in this role is not only someone who can get the job done on a day-to-day basis but is also willing to take on the crap from the government, the Dept. of Justice and the various Garda representative bodies along with the media.
On top of this, there is huge systemic rot within the organisation which must be tackled. Huge cultural and behavioural changes are required within the organisation and this will be met with opposition and obfuscation all along the way.
Also, most sane people are in agreement that it should be someone from abroad. At this level, the person will have family and various ties. Are they to uproot and move for a salary of 300k?

This is not a job for anyone and everyone! 300k IMO is a poor salary for what will be required!

Will.i.am.not

kbannon wrote: »

What you are looking for in this role is not only someone who can get the job done on a day-to-day basis but is also willing to take on the crap from the government, the Dept. of Justice and the various Garda representative bodies along with the media.
On top of this, there is huge systemic rot within the organisation which must be tackled. Huge cultural and behavioural changes are required within the organisation and this will be met with opposition and obfuscation all along the way.
Also, most sane people are in agreement that it should be someone from abroad. At this level, the person will have family and various ties. Are they to uproot and move for a salary of 300k?

This is not a job for anyone and everyone! 300k IMO is a poor salary for what will be required!

Well said !! That exactly why the government woundnt want an outsider running the show ,the woundnt be able to control them.
Our would they ?

diomed

Only one man for the job
http://www.bugsgang.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Allo-Allo-2.jpg

McMurphy

Will.i.am.not wrote: »

Well said !! That exactly why the government woundnt want an outsider running the show ,the woundnt be able to control them.
Our would they ?

ask Simon O'Brien

CPTM

Panthro wrote: »

Papers this morning saying the wage would have to be upped to 300,000 to attract foreign interest.
Have we nobody on the island capable of doing an honest days work?!

One thing that I haven't seen discussed anywhere is the impact this increase would have on O'Sullivan's pension. As far as I know, pensions in the Gardai are pegged against the current salary of the grade you were when you retired (like the civil service).

So would O'Sullivan's pension of 90K (50% of the Commissioner's salary) be increased to 150K if the New Commissioner's salary jumps to 300K?!

givyjoe

Ace2007 wrote: »

And again you refuse to read my posts, I never said she was innocent. Whether she is innocent or not, she shouldn't have to deal with all the crap by the media - the public accounts committee have basically led to 2 commissioners resigning, and the force no better off.

Does the Media attack the Director General of the HSE for the under performing, for the never ending long waiting lists, for the countless waste of tax payers money, the "Grace" case etc. Nope never to the same extend - so why than attack the commissioner of the Gardai? Pretty much everyone knows who NOS is - ask how many is the head of the HSE - and most people won't know.

A commissioner should be given time to sort out the mess - these things take time. One poster yesterday said it will take 10/15 years.

Suppose they get a new external international nominated commissioner:

Will you accept for that person to be paid approx. 250k a year for instance and spend the majority of time in front of the public accounts committee answering historic issues, or will you let him get on with the issue to sort out the organisation from top to bottom?

The PAC didn't lead to 2 commissioners resigning, their own poor performance, incompetence, dishonestly and the scrutiny that should and did follow are the reasons why they resigned.

Do a better, honest job and they won't have as tough a time.

tayto lover

Is it only Garda Commissioners who resign or are pushed?
Why not the heads of failed political parties? Parties who led to the collapse of our economy seem to be allowed stay on for long periods before being replaced.
What annoys me most is the hypocrisy of the Shinners. Their own leader presided over loads of issues like the Jean McConville affair, the murder of Jerry McCabe and the collection of his murderers by an elected TD. He also failed to report his own paedophile brother who he knew about and failed to stop him getting a job as a youth worker in Dundalk of all things while he was on the run from the police in Northern Ireland. He even said last week that the murderers of Tom Oliver, a farmer from near where I live, should not be jailed.
Of course the Commissioner should never have been appointed in the first place as she was too close to the issues that caused her downfall. A stop to political appointments is coming too late in this country imo.

I don't believe any of the parties are without sin. Hypocrites all.

TallGlass

But Tayto Lover, why should she not have been hired? She went and applied like others via the public appointment service. She was hired because she was the best of what applied. She wasn't handed the job, people seem to forget that part.

McMurphy

The difference in politicians and police commissioners, politicians get given a mandate to represent a number of their constituents by way of popular votes.

Every election the public get given a chance to show any candidates from political parties their support (or lack of) via the ballot box - that's democracy.

You cannot do the same in the case of a crooked and corrupt police commissioner.

twowheelsonly

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Her pension must be safe

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Retiring to a huge pension no doubt.

Nettle Soup wrote: »

She gets a massive pension just like many other failed public servants and politicians e.g. John Tierney, Bertie, Cowen etc

Is she not entitled to her pension ? The one that she paid into for 36 years.?? And, before it turns into a Golden Defined Benefit Pension debate, that's what she signed up for when she joined and that's what she's entitled to as far as I'm concerned.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

This is as serious as it gets - it is above a GE.

A body has to be formed to do a total revamp of the force - there is 10 to 15 years work in it.

This is it exactly. Leaving aside my own personal opinion of the woman she was pretty hamstrung in her position. "We want you to reform the force but first we want you to attend every Inquiry we can dream up and answer questions on things that happened over the last 20 years"

We need someone appointed who will be left to get on with their job and not be at the beck and call of every TD that fancies a pop off them. Let them get on with rooting out and correcting the current problems within the force and let someone else worry about answering historical questions.

I'm divided on whether it should be an 'insider' or an 'outsider' though. An insider will have risen through the ranks and will have an understanding of the culture and problems that exist but on the other hand may have either too many friends or too many enemies within. An outsider will be viewed with suspicion by all those within and will need time to both gain acceptance and to understand the dynamics of the force. They will only learn through reading reports rather than first hand experience but on the other hand maybe that fresh eye is what's needed.

tayto lover

Rick Shaw wrote: »

The difference in politicians and police commissioners, politicians get given a mandate to represent a number of their constituents by way of popular votes.

Every election the public get given a chance to show any candidates from political parties their support (or lack of) via the ballot box - that's democracy.

You cannot do the same in the case of a crooked and corrupt police commissioner.

Indeed. BUT why do people still vote for crooked and corrupt politicians and why do posters vote for them yet still complain on threads like this about someone else? It ranks of hypocrisy.

McMurphy

tayto lover wrote: »

Indeed. BUT why do people still vote for crooked and corrupt politicians and why do posters vote for them yet still complain on threads like this about someone else? It ranks of hypocrisy.

Who voted O'Sullivan into her job?

If people feel like she overstepped her mark, or was doing a poor job, they're free to complain.

As already stated. They won't be given a chance to vote her out of that position.

Ace2007

givyjoe wrote: »

The PAC didn't lead to 2 commissioners resigning, their own poor performance, incompetence, dishonestly and the scrutiny that should and did follow are the reasons why they resigned.

Do a better, honest job and they won't have as tough a time.

Then why is it that all others who were dishonest and involved in far worse scandals keep their position - as Tayto said you have Gerry Adams - everything throw at him and yet SF back him - why not ousted him out? The media give him a hard time but then move on - Mary Lou was on rte news interview when the commissioner went - but she never once said that Gerry should go for what he's done? Is that acceptable? Do you think NOS did worse than Gerry?

The PAC anti government parties and the media hounded the resignation of two commissioners -

Head of HSE not hounded anyway as much - even though people are dying cause of waiting lists. The HSE gave Maurice McCabe an apology - but again the top guy remains.

It seems in the guards that the top person goes while everyone remains and that's ok - yet people think an outsider is going to come here for pennies and fix the problem overnight and also put up with the crap and internal problems.

You guys think that I'm defending her - I'm not - what I'm mearly pointing out is that it's a politically football - SF don't want the Garda thing fixed they just was ammunition to fire and keep firing for the next GE. If they cared they would sort out their own house first, would be piling pressure on the head of the HSE and over public sector heads to go as well - but as I said before - the Garda is probably the one section of the PS that has poor public support so it's easier to attack and gain political votes. Imagine attacking nurses the way the Garda are - that would lose party votes

Dyr

Panthro wrote: »

Papers this morning saying the wage would have to be upped to 300,000 to attract foreign interest.
Have we nobody on the island capable of doing an honest days work?!

You get the impression that the culture in the guards since before my lifetime made sure a certain type was promoted to the top levels.

I think you need someone from outside the culture but then you need to clean out the top tier who'll try to sabotage the new guy.

Caliden

Panthro wrote: »

Papers this morning saying the wage would have to be upped to 300,000 to attract foreign interest.
Have we nobody on the island capable of doing an honest days work?!

Anyone with a lick of sense wouldn't take the job knowing the **** storm they'd be taking over.

martingriff

Potential-Monke wrote: »

This. And people will only give out while it is happening, as it won't be happening quick enough.

There is no quick fix to this situation. It will take time and a lot of effort, and the public don't want to wait, like everything, they want it fixed and they want it fixed now.

As for the drink driving tests, i can honestly say i never faked one in my 10 years (i'll be honest, i didn't have very many drink drivers in my career, i was too busy with other work to do Traffics job also). I also know a lot of Gardai that won't do anything of the sort, as they don't want to get fired.

And there's the problem, a lot of this 'corruption' started before I, and a lot of the newer Gardai, joined. I wasn't that Garda, i didn't do any of that fixing stuff, not worth my freedom/job/time. But i was lumped in with them because people didn't want to even fathom that there are good Gardai out there. No, one giant big brush for them all. Makes it next to impossible to do the job.

Again, i'm not defending the bad apples, but they're nowhere near as many of them as people like to think. And it wasn't my job to pull them on their antics, it's managements job. But they can't even manage to give each Garda enough time to investigate what they already have.

What needs to change is not the whole organisation, but more the promotion side of things. Anyone can get a promotion. Some were given promotions to shut them up or move them on. That's wrong. Promotion should go on work quality, not work load. And this isn't happening.

They also need to change how the force investigates, and the MET model would suit - Slightly above Skeleton First Responders, and then each crime goes to a specific area for the full time members in that area to investigate. It never made sense to me that in-between all the public order, traffic and general day to day policing (of which there's a stupid amount) i was expected to perform a full and proper investigation into a known burglar because i responded to that burglary first. Makes more sense to have the same people investigating the same burglaries, as criminals have patterns, but i won't know that from the few burglaries i had to investigate.

Anyway, i can turn this into an essay, but i'll only piss myself off repeating myself to people who just don't want to listen (no pointing any fingers in here, just a general comment).

I am sorry but I must pull you on this as I am sure others have. It was your job to pull people up on this to speak out if you loved the job. Maybe if you and others had spoken out then the whistle blowers like Maurice McCabe would have gotten more support

tayto lover

Bambi wrote: »

You get the impression that the culture in the guards since before my lifetime made sure a certain type was promoted to the top levels.

I think you need someone from outside the culture but then you need to clean out the top tier who'll try to sabotage the new guy.

That's exactly as I see it too. That culture was probably cultivated by politicians who wanted their own men at their beck and call, thus ensuring that the most loyal rather than the brightest were promoted.
That's why I call them all hypocrites now. I still laugh at Mary Lou to the fore on any form of media available while she hid anytime the heat was on Gerry. Enda was also ready to take the backing of Lowry to form a Government after all the the shenanigans he was involved in.
Hypocrites I tells yis.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If you pay relative peanuts, you get relative monkeys.

Like the Banking executives were paid peanuts?

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Is she not entitled to her pension ? The one that she paid into for 36 years.?? And, before it turns into a Golden Defined Benefit Pension debate, that's what she signed up for when she joined and that's what she's entitled to as far as I'm concerned.




This is it exactly. Leaving aside my own personal opinion of the woman she was pretty hamstrung in her position. "We want you to reform the force but first we want you to attend every Inquiry we can dream up and answer questions on things that happened over the last 20 years"

We need someone appointed who will be left to get on with their job and not be at the beck and call of every TD that fancies a pop off them. Let them get on with rooting out and correcting the current problems within the force and let someone else worry about answering historical questions.

I'm divided on whether it should be an 'insider' or an 'outsider' though. An insider will have risen through the ranks and will have an understanding of the culture and problems that exist but on the other hand may have either too many friends or too many enemies within. An outsider will be viewed with suspicion by all those within and will need time to both gain acceptance and to understand the dynamics of the force. They will only learn through reading reports rather than first hand experience but on the other hand maybe that fresh eye is what's needed.

That is exactly what could be achieved with an outsider, though.

Let them get on with doing the job, and let the inquiries call as many of the senior Gardaí as necessary to get the answers that are required.

steddyeddy

There's a complete sense of impunity in the organisation. Every news story lately has related to liars and lack of morals. The papers are saying that there's a real lack of moral in the force now. I'd say the bigger problem is the lack of trust we, as a society have in the organisation. No doubt there's lots of good people working very working members, but over the years we've had framing whistleblowers, members if the public, lying about checkpoints and lying to cover the rotten apples. They need a reminder that they're public servants.

Captain Obvious

steddyeddy wrote: »

There's a complete sense of impunity in the organisation. Every news story lately has related to liars and lack of morals.

You mean every negative story surely?

steddyeddy

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You mean every negative story surely?

Indeed.

Nettle Soup

Nuala O'Loan said today that the Gardai wasted approx 125,000 hours creating false breath tests. That's staggering.