Electric Vehicles and Budget 2017...?

unkel

And in neither case do you own the car. Not sure why those options are so popular over here. Particularly PCP. It seems like a voluntary contract for slavery / bonded debt to me.

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I got it through the dealer.

Pcp then?

thierry14

unkel wrote: »

And in neither case do you own the car. Not sure why those options are so popular over here. Particularly PCP. It seems like a voluntary contract for slavery / bonded debt to me.

Pcp I dont like

Leasing suits me though, no deposit, keep my cash, a fixed bill every month for a product I have no intention of keeping

Leroy42

I think the thread shows that there isn't anything, which is not going to cost massive money, that the government can realistically do in the budget to drive the EV changeover.

Legislation for apartment owners chargepoints, lower levels of Road tax, increasing diesel road tax, free charging points for second hand buyers etc. All this points to the fact that currently the EV vehicle is a very targeted product. It doesn't work for everyone and the current offering, petrol, is more than adequately catering for.

To get people to change you either need to offer something that is better or make the current offering more expensive. What we currently have is that the current product is better (in terms of usability) and its is also cheaper. Not in terms of fuel costs but people, and car industry, have never focused on the running costs so expecting the majority of consumer to suddenly take into account annual running costs is unrealistic.

I think the government need to start to put the onus on where it should sit, the manufacturers. For too long they have been helped to shift their products by way of government incentives which of course removes the need for them to deal with the issues themselves. They pretty quickly were able to get many cars to fit into the lower brackets of Road Tax when it was based on emissions, when for years they moved only sliigthly in that regard.

So government should place certain limits on each manufacturer. a % of all vehicles they bring onto the market need to be EV. It is up to them how they will go about achieving that. Those manufacturers that offer little of no EV would therefore be forced to get moving on EV. Manufacturers would be forced to actively drive sales of EV in order to avoid penalties etc.

The manufacturers need to be pushed harder to move away from petrol/diesel. Not all of course, but a certain %. Maybe start low 5% with a move to 20% within a specified time frame.

The motor industry has been helped enormously by government intervention across the years. Scrappage scheme, 171/172 number plates etc. In terms of EV we are already offering free charge points, reduced charge point installation costs, lower VRT. It is time for the industry to start to deliver back to the market.

The motor industry, like most industries, will do the least amount they need to go continue as before. They are starting to ramp up their offerings but it is taking too long and they need to be given harder push. By forcing them to achieve targets, they will have to find a way to get the EV into the market. Having more EV on the road,getting them more normal rather than a curio, will see more people start to take an active interest in them and actively seek them out.

Yes PCP.

Suits me fine on a car I don't want to keep.

I don't know why some people are so opposed to pcp ?

Casati

My brother just got a Chevy Bolt in the States. RRP was $39k less CA electric grant brought it down to $31.5k

Loves the car, says it's a 0-60 under 6.5 seconds and great power all way up to 90mph. He's has managed to squeeze 240 miles out of a tank! I think this car makes the new Leaf and Ioniq look like a previous generation attempt

He got it on a Lease (not PCP) $330 per month with $1200 down. Limit 15,000 miles per year/ 3 years

Evd-Burner

Casati wrote: »

My brother just got a Chevy Bolt in the States. RRP was $39k less CA electric grant brought it down to $31.5k

Loves the car, says it's a 0-60 under 6.5 seconds and great power all way up to 90mph. He's has managed to squeeze 240 miles out of a tank! I think this car makes the new Leaf and Ioniq look like a previous generation attempt

He got it on a Lease (not PCP) $330 per month with $1200 down. Limit 15,000 miles per year/ 3 years

That seems like a really good deal.

ELM327

Evd-Burner wrote: »

That seems like a really good deal.

15k miles a year sounds like a very low limit.
I drive that in 3-4 months, and aren't the US supposed to drive more than we do in Europe!
Would be interested to see what the prices were for a say 35-45k miles per year lease.

Casati

ELM327 wrote: »

15k miles a year sounds like a very low limit.
I drive that in 3-4 months, and aren't the US supposed to drive more than we do in Europe!
Would be interested to see what the prices were for a say 35-45k miles per year lease.

15k is about average in the U.S, I think it's about 12k here. Big penalty for v high miles on a lease car

bk

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

That's fine for new apartment builds but not retrospective. We're also not building.

I know, I literally said that in my post you quote! And then I said what needs to be done for existing buildings, but you dropped that part when quoting my post!

Secondly, do you not live in Dublin, building in Dublin is back up, there are 4 major new developments happening within 10 minutes walk of my home!

Also now when building is lower, is the correct time to change the planning rules to include requirements for charging points, before the building takes off.

BTW I live in an apartment and have been heavily involved with Management Agency and Companies. I fought for 4 years to get Virgin Media installed in my building. So I know well that it can be hard to get things done, but I also know that wth a little effort it absolutely can be done.

You make it easy and standard for management agencies and they typically don't object as long as they don't have to manage it themselves.

Other countries have companies who will install chargers in apartment buildings for free and operate and maintain them, managing billing of the customer, etc. With this sort of set up, most management agencies won't object. Once one of these companies come to Ireland, I see very few issues. You will pay a little more then pure domestic range, but it will still be much cheaper then Diesel.

billy few mates

Going back to the original thrust of the thread is there any point In us lobbying for greater incentives for EV ownership ahead of the budget?
Would a number of emails to the appropriate minister/dept outlining the wants and needs to encourage EV ownership have any effect?

billy few mates

billy few mates wrote: »

is there any point In us lobbying for greater incentives for EV ownership ahead of the budget?

No, + I'd say the budget is almost complete.

Here's my guess as to what will happen, maximum.

Grant and VRT relief will continue for 2018. ( most likely )

Diesel will go up 2 - 3 cent. ( most likely )

Diesel motor tax will go up 10 - 20 Euro's. (unlikely)

ICE tax will continue to be Co2 based ( most likely )

Changes to bands ( unlikely )

lob020

Will ESB continue to install home charger for free in 2018 ?

I expect they will but even if they didn't the savings would be paid back pretty quick if you compared to paying for petrol or diesel , I certainly would not let that put you off. You can get it installed cheaper yourself, get 2nd hand charge point and have any electrician connect it, once they're certified to connect to your consumer unit. You can run any cable yourself once you find out what cable to use.

The costs of the charge points have fallen since 2011.

lob020

Thanks for quick reply.previous posts suggest cost of installing home charger would be 500/600 euro,so it would make it even more attractive to change to EV if it continues to be free

But even so if it wasn't free it's still a no brainer compared to diesel particularly with the 40 Kwh Leaf coming and other electrics in 2018.

ELM327

500 quid max, and on the cost of a new car (ICE or EV) 500 quid shouldn't be the make or break.

unkel

And it's an easy and very cheap job to upgrade the standard 16A free charge point to a 32A charge point.

This should have been free in the first place, but for the red tape within the ESB, you have to supply some material, do a flash of the chargepoint with a laptop and a serial connector and then have your electrician replace the RCBO. Cost me about €60 in total

To charge a 40kWh car on the 16A from empty to full takes 13 hours, which is just too long. Half that time on a 32A charger...

lob020

Great replies and info,my heart is set on new Leaf,but its gonna cost me about 15000 plus my own car ,(depending on new list price of Leaf) and e-pedal is extra so every little bit I can save is going to help justify with the other half.Will definitely upgrade to 32 when getting installation

cros13

lob020 wrote: »

e-pedal is extra so every little bit I can save is going to help justify with the other half.

e-pedal will probably be standard on the base spec. It certainly is on the US base spec.

lob020

cros13 wrote: »

e-pedal will probably be standard on the base spec. It certainly is on the US base spec.

I saw an article in times last week.which indicated that e-pedal was an extra.hole that's wrongs

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

15k miles a year sounds like a very low limit.
I drive that in 3-4 months, and aren't the US supposed to drive more than we do in Europe!
Would be interested to see what the prices were for a say 35-45k miles per year lease.

actually Irish Diesel drives drive more then US drivers ( and are some of the highest average mileage users in the world) , Ireland is a very car -orientated state

13,000km average US , 14700km , average Irish diesel driver

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

No, + I'd say the budget is almost complete.

Here's my guess as to what will happen, maximum.

Grant and VRT relief will continue for 2018. ( most likely )

Diesel will go up 2 - 3 cent. ( most likely )

Diesel motor tax will go up 10 - 20 Euro's. (unlikely)

ICE tax will continue to be Co2 based ( most likely )

Changes to bands ( unlikely )

Based on my interactions with the department

Grant and VRT relief will continue for 2018.
cast in stone , no change expected ( Hybrids may change )
( definite )

Diesel will go up 2 - 3 cent.
lots of debate and speculation , very political decision , election expected next year, so Gov may not increase excise
( less likely )

Diesel motor tax will go up 10 - 20 Euro's
(No, very unlikely )

ICE tax will continue to be Co2 based
Changes to bands

I think there maybe finer granulation being considered, particularly at low end to trap diesels on the borders of low bands , into higher bands.
(less likely )

BIK
a full or partial relief on company EVs is being actively considered ( along with a formal relief on BIK on workplace charging
(likely)

Grant for chargers
Serious consideration to extending grant to include purchasers of 2nd hand cars
(very likely )

Other incentives also being considered, but can be implemented within DTTAS/DCCAE budget allocations without specific budget process

Leroy42

VRT relief is currently at 5k for EV. On top of that buyers can get a free electrical point for their property, and electrical charge points have been installed across the country.

But just taking the individual, that is nearly 6k of costs that the state is currently providing for each car. Surely that is more than enough of a subsidy for any purchase.

I go back to an earlier post and restate that the government has done enough and that it is time that the manufacturers are forced to offer better. They are effectively charging more for the EV, which works out the same based on the reduction in VRT.

Individuals is not the way to go. If the government is serious about this they should remove the total market incentives and focus rebates on those areas that can make the most change. Taxi drivers is one example. Take the reduction in VRT they currently give to every purchase and limit it to Taxi's only, through a rebate. That means less volume of reductions but bigger reductions on each case. Provide charging points at all Taxi ranks, with a top of the line system for airports etc to force drivers to change.

Clearly the manufacturers have not reached the point where economies of scale or production viability has reached a point where EV cost the same or less than petrol.

unkel

Leroy42 wrote: »

VRT relief is currently at 5k for EV. On top of that buyers can get a free electrical point for their property, and electrical charge points have been installed across the country.

But just taking the individual, that is nearly 6k of costs that the state is currently providing for each car. Surely that is more than enough of a subsidy for any purchase.

Don't forget there's a pure €5k subsidy as well. So nearly 11k of costs that the state is currently providing for each car. And I agree that is more than enough. Not a very efficient use of tax payers money in the effort to get people to convert to EVs

And a lot of carrot for EV buyers, and not enough stick for diesel owners / buyers imho

And full disclosure: I gladly accepted the 11k myself and I would not have bought an EV without it

Falcon L

Leroy42 wrote: »

VRT relief is currently at 5k for EV. On top of that buyers can get a free electrical point for their property, and electrical charge points have been installed across the country.

But just taking the individual, that is nearly 6k of costs that the state is currently providing for each car. Surely that is more than enough of a subsidy for any purchase.

I go back to an earlier post and restate that the government has done enough and that it is time that the manufacturers are forced to offer better. They are effectively charging more for the EV, which works out the same based on the reduction in VRT.

Individuals is not the way to go. If the government is serious about this they should remove the total market incentives and focus rebates on those areas that can make the most change. Taxi drivers is one example. Take the reduction in VRT they currently give to every purchase and limit it to Taxi's only, through a rebate. That means less volume of reductions but bigger reductions on each case. Provide charging points at all Taxi ranks, with a top of the line system for airports etc to force drivers to change.

Clearly the manufacturers have not reached the point where economies of scale or production viability has reached a point where EV cost the same or less than petrol.

While I agree that the manufacturers need to get the finger out, I disagree with the rest. You're not a taxi operator by any chance? :P

I plan to go electric in January. If the incentives are removed from me, I'll stick to my oil burner. No skin off my nose. It is euro 6 and very economical. It just wouldn't make sense for me to shell out north of €40k on a new, similar sized car. Is this what you want: people turning away from electric because it's too expensive at the moment? The manufacturers will see this as a lack of interest and scale back or rethink their EV production. Or, in the case of the German makers, they would feel justified that they didn't make the huge investment needed.

Until the tipping point is reached, incentives are needed to prime the pump, so to speak. With the charging network we have, EVs are going to be a hard sell for the mass market. If the cost to change is too high it's game over, I'm afraid.

Leroy42

Falcon L wrote: »

While I agree that the manufacturers need to get the finger out, I disagree with the rest. You're not a taxi operator by any chance? :P

I plan to go electric in January. If the incentives are removed from me, I'll stick to my oil burner. No skin off my nose. It is euro 6 and very economical. It just wouldn't make sense for me to shell out north of €40k on a new, similar sized car. Is this what you want: people turning away from electric because it's too expensive at the moment? The manufacturers will see this as a lack of interest and scale back or rethink their EV production. Or, in the case of the German makers, they would feel justified that they didn't make the huge investment needed.

Until the tipping point is reached, incentives are needed to prime the pump, so to speak. With the charging network we have, EVs are going to be a hard sell for the mass market. If the cost to change is too high it's game over, I'm afraid.

No I'm not a taxi driver, or involved in transport at all.

I am currently thinking about EV as well, likely be mid to late 2018 at this stage though.

But in reality how much difference is me changing from a normal petrol family car bought in the previous 5 years have (based on average driving)? Is that worth 10k of taxpayers money?

Would that pot of money not be better spent on moving an entire industry to EV. Taxi's being a perfect example. Mainly short journeys (ie less that 100k) plenty of time to recharge, plenty of static points to recharge out and on average the taxi would do far more distance than a normal family car and most if it within the city.

Get them changed over and as people use taxis then become more accustomed to EV, they become more normal.

Also, place targets for the manufacturers. Lets say 10% of total sales must be EV. If Manu's claim they cannot do this without funding then in reality the technology isn't ready and why should the taxpayer be effectively funded their projects. But if they want to sell vehicles they need to hit the target or face large penalties. It is their product that is creating the pollution, why shouldn't they be forced to clean up or pay?

If they choose to pay, then you are going to face higher charges on petrol vehicles to cover the fine, a fine that can be ringfenced to increase the rebates to those industries prepared to move (taxi's in my example but also Dublin Bus, school buses, all government cars).

Also use that money to create free parking for EV. The lost revenue to County councils can be reimbursed through the manufacturers fund. If 4 out of 10 spaces are free but only available to EV people would really start to question the value of Petrol.

Any new applications for Petrol stations should have to include a certain number of fast charging points, or again a payment in lieu. That payment should cover the ability of the state to provide the required amount of charging points within a certain radius of the new station.

lob020

lob020 wrote: »

I saw an article in times last week.which indicated that e-pedal was an extra.hole that's wrongs

Even if it were , pressing the brake does the same thing.

Falcon L

Falcon L wrote: »

It is euro 6 and very economical.

LOl a Euro 6 Diesel wouldn't get near the U.S !

Euro 6 means nothing, cleaner but far from clean.

However Ad Blu is vastly cleaner and all diesels should have it.

Falcon L

Deleted User wrote: »

LOl a Euro 6 Diesel wouldn't get near the U.S !

Euro 6 means nothing, cleaner but far from clean.

However Ad Blu is vastly cleaner and all diesels should have it.

I wasn't praising the cleanliness of my oil burner. how could I? I would rather not be driving any ICE. I was simply saying that if incentives were not in place, I wouldn't even consider changing to an EV, based on the price without them.

I wasn't planning on driving to the US anyway.

Falcon L

Falcon L wrote: »

I wasn't praising the cleanliness of my oil burner. how could I? I would rather not be driving any ICE. I was simply saying that if incentives were not in place, I wouldn't even consider changing to an EV, based on the price without them.

How about Hybrid ?

Falcon L wrote: »

I wasn't planning on driving to the US anyway.

I walked into that one !

Wait until 2018 ? I don't think a 60 Kwh Leaf will be cheap if that's what you're waiting for and that's if they release a 60 Kwh at all.

I think you'd be surprised how 40 Kwh will meed pretty much all of your needs with maybe a couple of times a year you need to wait at a fast charger.

The sad thing is that it's still limited to 45-50 Kw and it's a shame Nissan never allowed CCS for Europe to charge at least as fast as the Ioniq at 65 Kw, however the Ioniq will have less range to begin with but even so , a 40 Kwh leaf will need a lot longer on the charger though probably , in reality, not much more than a 24 Kwh Leaf to 85%.

Falcon L

Deleted User wrote: »

How about Hybrid ?



I walked into that one !

Wait until 2018 ? I don't think a 60 Kwh Leaf will be cheap if that's what you're waiting for and that's if they release a 60 Kwh at all.

I think you'd be surprised how 40 Kwh will meed pretty much all of your needs with maybe a couple of times a year you need to wait at a fast charger.

The sad thing is that it's still limited to 45-50 Kw and it's a shame Nissan never allowed CCS for Europe to charge at least as fast as the Ioniq at 65 Kw, however the Ioniq will have less range to begin with but even so , a 40 Kwh leaf will need a lot longer on the charger though probably , in reality, not much more than a 24 Kwh Leaf to 85%.

I see hybrids as carrying around one technology while you're using the other. I'm happy to go all electric, and it'll probably be Ioniq.

I'm told (reliably??) that the Hyundai ordering system will today be populated with Ioniqs to order for January/February delivery. Time to go deal hunting! Anybody know the best Hyundai dealership in the country to haggle with? I love a good haggle. :cool:

BoatMad

Leroy42 wrote: »

VRT relief is currently at 5k for EV. On top of that buyers can get a free electrical point for their property, and electrical charge points have been installed across the country.

But just taking the individual, that is nearly 6k of costs that the state is currently providing for each car. Surely that is more than enough of a subsidy for any purchase.

I go back to an earlier post and restate that the government has done enough and that it is time that the manufacturers are forced to offer better. They are effectively charging more for the EV, which works out the same based on the reduction in VRT.

Individuals is not the way to go. If the government is serious about this they should remove the total market incentives and focus rebates on those areas that can make the most change. Taxi drivers is one example. Take the reduction in VRT they currently give to every purchase and limit it to Taxi's only, through a rebate. That means less volume of reductions but bigger reductions on each case. Provide charging points at all Taxi ranks, with a top of the line system for airports etc to force drivers to change.

Clearly the manufacturers have not reached the point where economies of scale or production viability has reached a point where EV cost the same or less than petrol.

The state funds 10K in purchase grants via 5K VRT , 5K SEAI grant ( new EV) and s free hone charge point ( which is not a charger by the way )

BoatMad

Leroy42 wrote: »

No I'm not a taxi driver, or involved in transport at all.

I am currently thinking about EV as well, likely be mid to late 2018 at this stage though.

But in reality how much difference is me changing from a normal petrol family car bought in the previous 5 years have (based on average driving)? Is that worth 10k of taxpayers money?

Would that pot of money not be better spent on moving an entire industry to EV. Taxi's being a perfect example. Mainly short journeys (ie less that 100k) plenty of time to recharge, plenty of static points to recharge out and on average the taxi would do far more distance than a normal family car and most if it within the city.

Get them changed over and as people use taxis then become more accustomed to EV, they become more normal.

Also, place targets for the manufacturers. Lets say 10% of total sales must be EV. If Manu's claim they cannot do this without funding then in reality the technology isn't ready and why should the taxpayer be effectively funded their projects. But if they want to sell vehicles they need to hit the target or face large penalties. It is their product that is creating the pollution, why shouldn't they be forced to clean up or pay?

If they choose to pay, then you are going to face higher charges on petrol vehicles to cover the fine, a fine that can be ringfenced to increase the rebates to those industries prepared to move (taxi's in my example but also Dublin Bus, school buses, all government cars).

Also use that money to create free parking for EV. The lost revenue to County councils can be reimbursed through the manufacturers fund. If 4 out of 10 spaces are free but only available to EV people would really start to question the value of Petrol.

Any new applications for Petrol stations should have to include a certain number of fast charging points, or again a payment in lieu. That payment should cover the ability of the state to provide the required amount of charging points within a certain radius of the new station.

The gov wants large scale conversion to EVs. Changing out a few taxis is neither here nor there

Note taxi incentives expected next year ( acelerated depreciation , specific taxi charges etc )

Also few new filing stations are being built. gov will need to fund fast charger parks near major transport arteries
Most filing stations don't have the space for 4-6 charging stations etc

Leroy42

BoatMad wrote: »

The gov wants large scale conversion to EVs. Changing out a few taxis is neither here nor there

Note taxi incentives expected next year ( acelerated depreciation , specific taxi charges etc )

Also few new filing stations are being built. gov will need to fund fast charger parks near major transport arteries
Most filing stations don't have the space for 4-6 charging stations etc

Yes, but they won't achieve that by simply allowing the manufacturers to basically include the rebate as part of the RRP. What is the incentive for the manufacturer to push these products.

They are in effectively 10k more expensive than the same petrol version. Would you pay 10k more for the same car? Most people wouldn't so the government is forced to give money to try to help people switch.

You, the customer, is then saving more money by way of fuel savings, and possible maintenance. So surely an extra 10k up front is reasonable and as such why do you need to government to help?

The reason is that the pricing is way out of what the market is willing to pay and unless you place incentives (by way of possible restrictions/penalties) on manufacturers what incentive have they to reduce the price?

The idea behind the taxis etc is that the benefits are much more for them, and EV actually suit the type of driving they do. Get every taxi driver to switch and it would have a major effect. Then move to other forms. Post office vans. Buses. Garda cars.

At the end of the day I doubt very much that many people would be prepared to pay 10k extra out of their own pocket for the product, so why expect the taxpayer to do it for you? Would you be prepared to pay an additional levy on your lecky bill to cover it?

There is of course the environmental aspect, and certainly the government needs to tackle this. But at the moment all they are doing is propping up a very small niche market. The manufacturers need to step up. If you tell them that a certain % of all their car sales must be EV, then you would see real movement.

BoatMad

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yes, but they won't achieve that by simply allowing the manufacturers to basically include the rebate as part of the RRP. What is the incentive for the manufacturer to push these products.

They are in effectively 10k more expensive than the same petrol version. Would you pay 10k more for the same car? Most people wouldn't so the government is forced to give money to try to help people switch.

You, the customer, is then saving more money by way of fuel savings, and possible maintenance. So surely an extra 10k up front is reasonable and as such why do you need to government to help?

The reason is that the pricing is way out of what the market is willing to pay and unless you place incentives (by way of possible restrictions/penalties) on manufacturers what incentive have they to reduce the price?

The idea behind the taxis etc is that the benefits are much more for them, and EV actually suit the type of driving they do. Get every taxi driver to switch and it would have a major effect. Then move to other forms. Post office vans. Buses. Garda cars.

At the end of the day I doubt very much that many people would be prepared to pay 10k extra out of their own pocket for the product, so why expect the taxpayer to do it for you? Would you be prepared to pay an additional levy on your lecky bill to cover it?

There is of course the environmental aspect, and certainly the government needs to tackle this. But at the moment all they are doing is propping up a very small niche market. The manufacturers need to step up. If you tell them that a certain % of all their car sales must be EV, then you would see real movement.

Without the purchase incentive , pricing for EVs would be higher , how much , who knows

Gov will begin to scale back purchase incentives reasonably soon as they want to direct incentives into chargers

EVs are more suitable for long journeys within battery range they are actually not a good fit economically for urban use ( petrol is best )

Taxis are a drop in the ocean. Mass conversion to EVs within 10 years is the goal

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

..............

BIK
a full or partial relief on company EVs is being actively considered ( along with a formal relief on BIK on workplace charging
(likely).............

Do you expect that would inlcude plug in hybrids?
That might get some high mileage reps out of their diesels.

Leroy42

So would you pay 10k more for an EV? That is the key point. Without the incentive paid for by the government, that is roughly how much an EV will cost over a petrol version.

If the government are giving the incentive to the manufacturer, what incentive do you have to reduce the price? None. Its akin to the €3k first time buyers grant. They simply increase the cost to absorb it.

If the plan is mass conversion within 10 years then surely instead of giving grants to a very small amount of new vehicle buyers, why not force the manufacturers to drop the price. 20% of sales within two years, 40% within 6 and so on. Up to the manufacturer to work out how to achieve that. Do they increase the cost of petrol to compensate or find ways to reduce the price?

BoatMad

Augeo wrote: »

Do you expect that would inlcude plug in hybrids?
That might get some high mileage reps out of their diesels.

Not sure , it's wasn't mentioned in the discussions

BoatMad

Leroy42 wrote: »

So would you pay 10k more for an EV? That is the key point. Without the incentive paid for by the government, that is roughly how much an EV will cost over a petrol version.

If the government are giving the incentive to the manufacturer, what incentive do you have to reduce the price? None. Its akin to the €3k first time buyers grant. They simply increase the cost to absorb it.

If the plan is mass conversion within 10 years then surely instead of giving grants to a very small amount of new vehicle buyers, why not force the manufacturers to drop the price. 20% of sales within two years, 40% within 6 and so on. Up to the manufacturer to work out how to achieve that. Do they increase the cost of petrol to compensate or find ways to reduce the price?

Can't " force " manufacturers to do anything , that would solely be at EU level.

Increasing petrol prices is politically very sensitive
Not going to happen this year.

At present sales incentives are small beer overall but civil servants are receiving PQs on future costs and are definitely getting a little " nervous "

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

Can't " force " manufacturers to do anything , that would solely be at EU level.

Increasing petrol prices is politically very sensitive
Not going to happen this year.

At present sales incentives are small beer overall but civil servants are receiving PQs on future costs and are definitely getting a little " nervous "

+1
With the rumoured upcoming election they will do nothing to aggrevate middle ireland or the older people.

cros13

Leroy42 wrote: »

So would you pay 10k more for an EV? That is the key point. Without the incentive paid for by the government, that is roughly how much an EV will cost over a petrol version.

Yes... but I know what I'm buying. Most people have no experience of driving an EV and are generally unaware of the advantages.

Leroy42 wrote: »

If the government are giving the incentive to the manufacturer, what incentive do you have to reduce the price? None. Its akin to the €3k first time buyers grant. They simply increase the cost to absorb it.

That's definitely not the case. EVs are currently substantially more expensive to build than ICE vehicles at the moment (though not inherently). This is largely down to the current manufacturing scale of both the batteries and the cars. We need annual production of EVs to be in the millions or tens of millions before price parity is even possible without financial incentives.

We already have issues getting manufacturers to even expand production, market availability of models or build new models because EVs have such low margins for them. Most of the low volume cars on the market don't even make a profit for the manufacturer when R&D costs are included (Fiat lost $7,000 on every 500e produced once R&D and marketing expenses were added) and even the higher volume cars are very low margin (It took Nissan six years of an eight year product cycle to recoup the R&D spending for the Leaf). The only exception is Tesla.

You have to remember we're still coming down the pricing curve on batteries. When the Leaf launched in 2010 the price of commodity batteries would have meant that, had Nissan been purchasing batteries on the open market, the 24kWh battery alone would have cost over €20k. The new Leaf's battery (almost double the capacity) is being produced for around €5k which plus the cost of the motor and power electronics is still a substantial multiple of the cost of production for the average Nissan ICE. A lot the savings Nissan made over the production life of the Leaf were passed on to consumers, in 2011 the Leaf's Irish RRP started at €29,995 after the same incentives (It now starts at €21,490 for an improved Mk1.5).

The current incentives in Ireland are sufficient to bring the price of a Leaf or Ioniq to the level of their ICE equivalents. As battery prices drop further over the next 5-7 years the incentives could and should be phased out.... slowly.

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

As battery prices drop further over the next 5-7 years the incentives could and should be phased out.... slowly.

Your presumption is that the price of an EV (after incentives) should be on a par with the price of an ICE. But why? There's no need for that.

It's no problem that an EV is more expensive to buy, as long as the other benefits more than cover the extra spend. As in cheap fuel, no maintenance, zero tax, zero tolls and of course the stick: ever increasing excise, VRT and motor tax on ICE.