Process for acquiring a shotgun (clay)

CruelCoin

Hi guys,

Can i just check that i have the sequence of event correct for acquiring a shotgun for the purpose of clay-pigeon shooting (both range and landowners field, private trap)
There doesn't seem to be a hard and fast list anywhere that i can find.

1 - Buy gun
2a - Get competency cert from range/trainer
2b - Get landowners permission
2c - Get gun safe
3 - Get licence from gardai using form, cert and proof of safe.
4 - Bring licence to gunshop, they release gun into your care.

Am i there or thereabouts?

Three questions i have: Does a single shotgun need to be kept in a safe. I heard a gun sleeve + trigger lock is sufficient?
Does ammo need to be kept in a safe or not? On the gardai form, it's asking me for ammo to be licenced for. I haven't the foggiest, what is a usual amount to enter here?

Cheers for an and all info lads,

Roy.

gunny123

Get a safe, they are cheap relatively, and stops your gun falling into the wrong hands, including curious kids, the guards will be happier, and you can put other valuables in it too, cash, cameras, jewellery etc.

For clay pigeon, put down 1,000 cartridges.

CruelCoin

gunny123 wrote: »

Get a safe, they are cheap relatively, and stops your gun falling into the wrong hands, including curious kids, the guards will be happier, and you can put other valuables in it too, cash, cameras, jewellery etc.

For clay pigeon, put down 1,000 cartridges.

Cheers,

That enough to get through a few days shooting if you're at a competition? Or how do you come about a figure like that?

Luckysasha

If your shooting on farmlands you will need two landowners permission for the FCA1. If it's just clay shooting at a club you just need your club membership details. You will pick up a gun safe for €70 second hand so no excuse not to get one. Also it will look better on your FCA1 if you state "safe installed and house fitted with burglar alarm" if you have one of course. Some FOs will ask you to store your ammo separately from your gun. A good lock box is ideal. For the ammo limit I know personally I asked for 750 and that's what I got. It's not like buying rifle or pistol ammo where you can easily store 1000 rounds. 750 cartridges is quite big and bulky so will take up a lot of space especially if you have to lock it away. I buy 250 at a time for €55.

Cass

CruelCoin wrote: »

1 - Buy gun
2a - Get competency cert from range/trainer
2b - Get landowners permission
2c - Get gun safe
3 - Get licence from gardai using form, cert and proof of safe.
4 - Bring licence to gunshop, they release gun into your care.

Am i there or thereabouts?

You pretty much have it, but to recap in short you need in this order;

• Look around for a gun that suits
• Pick one and pay a small deposit (5-10%)
• Buy and install a gun safe
• Have range membership, gun club membership or land permissions (2 permissions).
• Get an FCA1 (application form) and fill it in along with:
  • Letter of sale from dealer with firearm details
  • Photos x 2
  • Referees to vouch for your character x 2
  • Medical details
  • Range details including membership number and copy of membership card or in the case of a firearm for hunting land permissions or club membership (gun club, not a range).
  • Seperate sheet of paper with an explanation as to why you want this firearm plus explanations for a mod (silencer) if you choose to get one.
  • All secure acomodation requirements (gun safe) in place as there is a box you must tick to say you have them in place.
• Submit the FCA1 to your local Garda station, and wait.
• Receive grant letter in the post then pay fee at the post office with your grant letter.
• Receive your license about a week later then go collect your new rifle.

The application can take from 2 weeks to 3 months, and some have even waited up to a year for their license. It is meant to be done within a 3 month time period, but this does not always happen depending on which Garda district you are in.

CruelCoin wrote: »

1 - Buy gun

Don't buy it outright. Place a small deposit only. If you don't get the license the gun is still yours as property is different to possession. IOW you can own the gun, but not have possession of it. If you pay for it in full most dealers now don't offer a refund for refusal.

Does ammo need to be kept in a safe or not? On the gardai form, it's asking me for ammo to be licenced for. I haven't the foggiest, what is a usual amount to enter here?

There are rough guidelines as to how much is enough. To request a high amount of ammo you must show good reason for needing such a high amount. Target shooting is the top reason, but as this can only be done, legally, on a range you must produce range membership among other reason to show you need a high amount.

Other reasons can be:

1. Empty (fired) casings are treated the same as live rounds as per the Firearms Act, 1925 where it states that "ammunition for a firearm is any ingredient or component part of any such ammunition", with component part being the bullet, the casing, the propellant or the primer. So my license must allow me to have a high enough limit to have both live and fired rounds in my possession.
2. I regularly take part in target competitions and actively attend target ranges for practice. As a result of this I can go through a large quantity of rounds in a short period of time.
3. Buying bulk rounds of ammunition to reduce trips to dealer and for cost implications.
4. Distance to dealer being excessive & inconvenient.
5. Having to keep a quantity of target orientated rounds for clays and hunting orientated rounds for hunting.

Does a single shotgun need to be kept in a safe. I heard a gun sleeve + trigger lock is sufficient?

Obviously the more security, the better, but they'll look at your overall security rather than one aspect. Also there is a scale of security you must meet depending on the number of guns you have. The more guns, the more security you need. Also these measurements are a minimum, meaning you can be made get much higher security based on where you live, etc. So for one shotgun the minimum is taken apart, trigger lock installed and stored separately, but you can be made get a safe or even a house alarm. The security requirements are:

Firearms (Secure Accommodation) Regulations 2009:

|Type and number of firearms| Secure accommodation standard

1 |One non-restricted shot-gun.| The shot-gun shall be disassembled and each part shall be stored securely and separately when not in use. The trigger housing shall be secured against use with an appropriate trigger lock.

2 |One restricted firearm or three or fewer non-restricted firearms. |Each firearm shall be stored securely in a gun safe which complies with BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure.

3 |Two restricted firearms, or more than three non-restricted firearms. | Each firearm shall be stored in a gun safe which complies with BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure. The place in which the firearms are stored shall have an alarm fitted and the external doors to the place shall be fitted with locks which comply with BS 3621.

4 |Three or more restricted firearms or six or more firearms, of any type, kept in the same place. | In addition to the standards specified at reference number 3, the place in which the firearms are stored shall have an intruder alarm system, installed and maintained by installers licensed by the Private Security Authority, which complies with I.S. EN 50131 or an equivalent standard approved by the Commissioner of the Garda Siochana. The alarm shall be connected to a monitoring service, operated by a person licensed by the Private Security Authority, and supported with GSM Mobile telephone service back up signalling facilities.

CruelCoin

Cheers lads,

Some follow on questions if I may?

1 - For the character references, are family references acceptable, or should they be more distant than that?
2 - Is there a minimum size of the parcel of land that is required? I hold land myself of 1 hectare, but I hadn't considered it as I thought it to be too small.
3 - Do i need all three of range/club/land, or will one or two of these suffice?


I'm planning on Saturday going to my local range to do a competency course, followed by an afternoon of gun browsing.
Any personal recommendations as to where would have a good range of guns for me to browse based on:
Over/under, ejector, 30", sporting, sub €1000 second hand, removable/swappable chokes (this based on really basic research, totally open to suggested alternative specs)

Cass

CruelCoin wrote: »

1 - For the character references, are family references acceptable, or should they be more distant than that?

Anyone that is NOT a serving member of An Gardaí. Doesn't even have to a firearm owner, just someone that can attest to your character.

2 - Is there a minimum size of the parcel of land that is required? I hold land myself of 1 hectare, but I hadn't considered it as I thought it to be too small.

25 acres or more is the guideline.

You can get a limited certificate for your own land (section 5.2 of the FCA1) but this only applies to shotguns and only on your land. not for any other shooting, anywhere. So best steer clear of it.

3 - Do i need all three of range/club/land, or will one or two of these suffice?

No. However if you are applying for clays and hunting you need to tick the appropriate boxes in section 4.2 of the FCA1. If you only tick one, then when the gun is granted it will only be for the one reason you ticked. So bets to tick any/all appropriate boxes.

Get the permission letters regardless. These will be the most use. You can still tick target shooting, and they may ask for membership details to a range. However clay pigeon shooting is not classified as target shooting so unlike a rifle range there is some leeway.

Any personal recommendations as to where would have a good range of guns for me to browse based on:
Over/under, ejector, 30", sporting, sub €1000 second hand, removable/swappable chokes.

Look under my post, in my signature. You'll see links to RFDs (Registered firearm dealers) and online shops. Good place to start then travel if somethingg catches your eye.

Luckysasha

I'm planning on Saturday going to my local range to do a competency course, followed by an afternoon of gun browsing.
Any personal recommendations as to where would have a good range of guns for me to browse based on:
Over/under, ejector, 30", sporting, sub €1000 second hand, removable/swappable chokes (this based on really basic research, totally open to suggested alternative specs)[/QUOTE]

Don't waste your time looking on the internet for dealers websites. Irish RFDs just don't keep them updated with guns for sale. A lot of them now are favouring Facebook so maybe throw your eye over them. When choosing a gun please god try as many as you can before you take the plunge and buy your own. I always had my heart set on a semi auto and took one for a test drive at my local range. Hated it when within 20 rounds. I just couldn't get used to the empty shell flying out the side. Stupid I know. And yet 2 lads I shoot with wouldn't fire anything but semi autos. If your serious about getting in to clays then buy the best you can afford. And make sure it fits well. Go to a dealer who will spend the time with you fitting the gun to suit you. Visit a couple of RFDs that have ranges attached so you can try the guns out there and then. I must have tried 20 before I settled on the one I have.

Gorgeousgeorge

CruelCoin wrote: »

Cheers lads,

Some follow on questions if I may?

1 - For the character references, are family references acceptable, or should they be more distant than that?
2 - Is there a minimum size of the parcel of land that is required? I hold land myself of 1 hectare, but I hadn't considered it as I thought it to be too small.
3 - Do i need all three of range/club/land, or will one or two of these suffice?


I'm planning on Saturday going to my local range to do a competency course, followed by an afternoon of gun browsing.
Any personal recommendations as to where would have a good range of guns for me to browse based on:
Over/under, ejector, 30", sporting, sub €1000 second hand, removable/swappable chokes (this based on really basic research, totally open to suggested alternative specs)

Where are you based

CruelCoin

Gorgeousgeorge wrote: »

Where are you based

Hi,

Kinnegad, Co. Westmeath, though that doesn't matter much to me. I have no issue travelling for something worth travelling for.

Going to "The Midlands National Shooting Centre of Ireland" Saturday. Having a gander at the facilities and getting a safety/competency course.
Will have a browse at Lakelandsportsupplies on the way home after having a chat with the instructor and look at their facilities too.

Gorgeousgeorge

CruelCoin wrote: »

Hi,

Kinnegad, Co. Westmeath, though that doesn't matter much to me. I have no issue travelling for something worth travelling for.

Going to "The Midlands National Shooting Centre of Ireland" Saturday. Having a gander at the facilities and getting a safety/competency course.
Will have a browse at Lakelandsportsupplies on the way home after having a chat with the instructor and look at their facilities too.

midlands is a great spot very nice lads. lakelands is good, go over to mcbrides in athlone he has unbelievable stock and is a gent. john conroy in portlaoise good stock. griffin hawe in athy

tikkamark

If you're in Kinnegad you should check out Ballivor clay shooting grounds it's not to far from you,it's a brilliant ground that if you liked could join the clay club which would help you big Time in getting your license.
It tends to be a quiet enough time on the clay scene from now till about April for comps etc.
I'd recommend a second hand beretta 686/687/682 or a browning 525 over and under as a reliable gun to get you going

scwazrh

Cass wrote: »

[*]Pick one and pay a small deposit (5-10%)

Is this the normal amount for a deposit?
The RFD selling a shotgun I'm looking for wants 50% deposit and will keep 15% if Im refused the license .I thought it was a bit steep when he said it..

Cass

scwazrh wrote: »

Is this the normal amount for a deposit?

There is no standard, but it's a rule of thumb i've used over the years. I base it on asking price. Anything up to and including about €2,000 i'd hand over 10%. Anything more expensive then it's respective, but i'd be more comfortable with around 5%.

Anytime i've dealt with RFDs i've either known them well enough not to hand out a deposit at all, but when asked even my rule of thumb above wasn't necessary as they only asked for €50 or €100 regardless of price. On one occasion i paid the full amount upfront so as to have the gun paid for. The RFD ordered it, but after two months the DoJ refused my import even though i got the substitution so when i went back to the RFD he handed me my full payment back without any charge. Granted i've dealt with him for over 16 years, but i was actually prepared to pay for shipping or any other costs, but was never asked for it.

Too many times over the last 5 years we hear more and more about RFDs refusing to issue refunds if someone is refused or demanding full payment up front. Also people, of their own accord, handing up the full amount and then getting stung when/if they are refused.

For a change of mind i can understand as the RFD has set aside the firearm, but for any other situation the way deals are being conducted is not what i'd call fair.

The RFD selling a shotgun I'm looking for wants 50% deposit and will keep 15% if Im refused the license .I thought it was a bit steep when he said it..

Using an example price of €2,000 for a good shotgun. You pay €1,000 upfront for the deposit and if you get refused you get back €700, the RFD gets to keep €300 and then sell the gun again for the original €2,000 asking price.

I've heard, and i mean in person not through word of mouth, of an RFD who would only take the full amount as a "deposit" and when the chap was refused the license the RFD told him he'd sell the gun for the customer for a 10% fee.

So the RFD got €750 upfront, was charging €50 per month storage and wanted 10% when it sold. If the rifle sat there for 3 months over a year the customer would actually owe the RFD money after the gun sold.

Gorgeousgeorge

If its an expensive item. Anything over 1000 in my books its usually 50% deposit