Is there anything constructive I can do about this discrimination?

Choochtown

My son is in 5th year in a VEC secondary school and has opted out of religion.

Everyone in his class is allowed to sit where they want during religion except for him. The religion teacher makes him sit at the front.
Moreover the teacher will not let him do any work during the class saying that it is "unfair" on the other students.

The principal has backed the teacher and said that if my son wants to do something in religion class he must bring a book relevant to his own faith (he is not religious whatsoever) and read it in class! Otherwise he must sit still and bored during class. The only other alternative that has been offered is for me to pick him up from school during religion class and leave him back afterwards which is simply not practical.

I think it is ridiculous that a leaving Cert student is being denied the right to study but from what I can gather there is nothing that I can do about it.

I have telephoned the principal to discuss this but as yet they have been unable to take my call.

Any advice would be welcomed.

looksee

Write to the local VEC main office and state your case. There does appear to be a degree of deliberate obstruction going on.

Stheno

Do leaving cert students have to do religion? When I did mine outside of English Irish and maths you choose your subjects

Might have changed

Choochtown

Stheno wrote: »

Do leaving cert students have to do religion? When I did mine outside of English Irish and maths you choose your subjects

Might have changed

Yeah he's timetabled for 2 periods a week with no alternative.

spurious

The VEC acts say he should have 2 hours. The Church's fingers dug in deep even in the schools that were not theirs.

You can't really do anything about him not being allowed leave the room unsupervised (major insurance issues for the school), but the sitting at the front of the class is a load of cobblers powerplay by the teacher.

The seating requirement means he is being victimised for his (lack of) religion. A well worded letter to the VEC/ETB (and/or the school sub-committee/board) and the many political folk on such bodies will sort that in no time.

Choochtown

looksee wrote: »

Write to the local VEC main office and state your case. There does appear to be a degree of deliberate obstruction going on.

I may do that if I get no progress with the Principal.

silverharp

seems oppressive and stressful for your son, at least request that he should be allowed read a general fiction book

Tenigate

A book on philosophy or psychology (mindfulness or something light like that) might be a solution that benefits your son and is acceptable to the school.
Not everything needs to be a battle!

robindch

You could contact the good folks over in Atheist Ireland at their education-facing website, Teach Don't Preach which is here:

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/

There's a range of standard letters and approaches documented on the website and one of these might be able to help you out. If none do, then you should try getting in touch with Jane Donnelly, AI's Education Officer - she has a wealth of experience of dealing with discrimination and unfair behaviour in Irish schools and I'm sure she'll be able to offer some useful guidance.

Lucy8080

Practically, you and the school are in a bind. You have permission to absent your child from the school/ they must have some legal issues/duties if he remains .

I can understand why your child has been given a specific seating arrangement, as I'm sure,likewise, that you would rather not have your child's best friend sitting beside him in a maths class, if the friend had opted out of maths. There is going to be a bit of messing, we all know that.

I don't think this is discrimination, it would be fair enough that your kid may not do homework in the class.

But, s/he should be allowed to use that time to quietly read a text book relating to subjects that s/he is taking/opting into.

I think you could reasonably defend that position to the head teacher.

Face to face friendly chat would be my advice.

Peregrinus

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I don't think this is discrimination, it would be fair enough that your kid may not do homework in the class.

I don't see why this is "fair enough" at all. It seems most unfair to me.

Effectively, because of his subject choices, the boy has a free period at this time. Ideally there'd be a study/library/similar where students with a free period could go and study/work/read independently, but I get that resourcing issues may make this not possible. That's unfortunate, but it's not in itself discrimination.

But the next best thing would be that he stays in his classroom and reads/works/studies independently in a quiet and unobtrusive fashion. If I was the teacher I'd rather have him at the back of the class than at the front but, hey, I don't know the guy; there's some students that you always want to keep a close eye on, and he could be one. I wouldn't second-guess the teacher on that point.

But I can see no justification for telling him that he cannot study or work independently at this time. He's in fifth year; he's supposed to be developing the skills for indendent, self-directed work. If his actions or attitudes become disruptive, that's one thing, but if he want to sit there and quietly do his history essay or his maths homework or his French revision, how on earth does "fairness" to the other students require that he be prevented from doing that?

Lucy8080

Peregrinus wrote: »

I don't see why this is "fair enough" at all. It seems most unfair to me.

It's classed as " homework". The school is offering the option to take the child home /off the premises to the parent. What happens then is out of the schools hands. Do homework/go for a spin..the school has afforded this option.

That is why I consider it a fair enough option.

If you go ( we leave it to your parent) if you stay ( school rules).

Realt Dearg Sec

silverharp wrote: »

seems oppressive and stressful for your son, at least request that he should be allowed read a general fiction book

Maybe the Bible?

tritriagain

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Maybe the Bible?

Let him bring in God is not great by hitchens. That'll really stir it up.

CabanSail

I am not sure if I am reading it correctly. He has opted out of Religion but he still has to stay in the class while it is being taught?

Could he not opt back in again and spend the period asking awkward questions instead? It's not like there is a shortage of them.

Maybe a big book of the History of Satanic Rituals and Human Sacrifice would be a good choice to read during the class? I wonder if the skull of a goat may be going too far?

Mark Hamill

Choochtown wrote: »

Moreover the teacher will not let him do any work during the class saying that it is "unfair" on the other students.

If your son doing school work doing religion would be unfair on the other students then maybe suggest that those other students should be doing school work too.

Mark Hamill

Lucy8080 wrote: »

It's classed as " homework". The school is offering the option to take the child home /off the premises to the parent. What happens then is out of the schools hands. Do homework/go for a spin..the school has afforded this option.

That is why I consider it a fair enough option.

If you go ( we leave it to your parent) if you stay ( school rules).

Since when does the location that you do "homework" in make any difference to what you get out of it?

Mark Hamill

Choochtown wrote: »

Everyone in his class is allowed to sit where they want during religion except for him. The religion teacher makes him sit at the front.

Front and centre or front and at either side? Front and at the side could be a case of what Peregrinus mentions, the teacher wanting to keep an extra eye on him for whatever reason. Front and centre is the teacher religiously discriminating against your son. Not only does it encourage the other students to do the same, it makes him feel out of place by making him stand out as much as possible in the most conspicuous space in the class. It would be like PE teacher requiring a disabled pupil always be front and centre for team picking even if they couldn't actually play the sport.

Frankly, I would go into the school and not leave until they agree to cop themselves on. The teachers are there for your student, not vice-versa, and nothing you want will take resources or teacher time away from any other student.

Ultimate Seduction

You're only hearing your sons side of it though. The fact he doesn't have to tune in during class, he could have been messing at back, disrupting other students.

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kylith

I'd be inclined to outfit him with copies of The God Delusion, Disproving Christianity, No Sacred Cows, and the like.

It'd preposterous that he can't get other work done. When I was in school the Protestant kids did their homework down the back of the class.

MrPudding

kylith wrote: »

I'd be inclined to outfit him with copies of The God Delusion, Disproving Christianity, No Sacred Cows, and the like.

It'd preposterous that he can't get other work done. When I was in school the Protestant kids did their homework down the back of the class.

My kids are in school in France now, so glad I don't have to put up with this. Even in England, where they were previously, it was a pain. They were at a non-faith school that had a "broadly christian ethos", which seems to mean getting evangelical christians in on a regular basis to run assemblies and have teachers (not the just the evangelicals) tell the kids sh1t like Noah's Ark was a true story.

MrP

Lucy8080

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Since when does the location that you do "homework" in make any difference to what you get out of it?

Well, if you do it in this school during class , i'm guessing it might result in a detention.

I'm not arguing against this kid being allowed do his homework in the class.It's up to the school.

The school has decided this policy. I would imagine that it's the same rule for all kids. So, no discrimination there. It's a fair enough refusal.

They also allow those who opt of of religious studies to leave the premises for the duration. So, no discrimination there.

"Discrimination" seems to be an ill chosen word here. It seems to me that the o.p. hasn't the resources/time to facilitate taking their child out of school. I would imagine that the school hasn't the time/ resources to facilitate a supervised study library.

The only issue here is that the teacher is being a tad inflexible about what textbooks s/he allows to be read .

A friendly chat would more than likely resolve that issue.

I'm also guessing that this is a religious studies class ,rather than an indoctrination/evangelising class. If i recall correctly , A.I. don't have any issues with that kind of format so i'm not sure what they could bring to the table.

edit; If the textbook has to be pertaining to religion ,well the only other option seems to be a book which debunks religion. I'm guessing the teacher won't want that and would be open to a compromise.

Lucy8080

I don't understand why a fifth year student needs a parent to pick them up. Is there any way , written approval from the parent say, to get around this? It seems a bit nanny state.

Peregrinus

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I don't understand why a fifth year student needs a parent to pick them up. Is there any way , written approval from the parent say, to get around this? It seems a bit nanny state.

Not nearly as nanny state as dictating that a fifth year student may not do homework during a free period.

I get that the "no homework during a free period" rule need not be discriminatory, if it applies to every student who has a free period for whatever reason. (If it only applies to students who have a free period because they have opted out of religion, then is is discriminatory.) But the fact that it may not be discriminatory does not mean that it is either fair or reasonable.

Lucy8080

looksee wrote: »

Write to the local VEC main office and state your case. There does appear to be a degree of deliberate obstruction going on.

It seems to me that this teacher is obliging the o.p. by letting the child sit in with the class. A class that the child has opted out of. The teacher is being treated like a baby-sitter.

It's kind of insulting to his professional integrity. I doubt if the teacher has any obligation towards this kid. His duty is to those kids who are taking the subject.

If the parent can't take responsibility for the child's free time, then maybe the child should take the class ,as it seems s/he is going to be there anyway.

How would any teacher feel about a scenario in which a kid can sit in the classroom and have a pass to totally ignore the subject,whilst every other kid has to participate.

My guess is that the school/teacher are praying that the o.p. has the nerve to go make a complaint.

Take the class .Take the offer of babysitting, but to demand that the kid can study any other subject bar this teachers subject in this teachers own classroom, well , that is taking the proverbial.

No teacher, of any subject, should have to put up with that nonsense.

Lucy8080

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not nearly as nanny state as dictating that a fifth year student may not do homework during a free period.

I get that the "no homework during a free period" rule need not be discriminatory, if it applies to every student who has a free period for whatever reason. (If it only applies to students who have a free period because they have opted out of religion, then is is discriminatory.) But the fact that it may not be discriminatory does not mean that it is either fair or reasonable.

The child can do his homework during the free period. If the o.p. makes the proper arrangements.

Every other kid in the classroom probably has the same homework. Why should this kid get to do homework and the rest have to take the class?

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smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

But the fact that it may not be discriminatory does not mean that it is either fair or reasonable.

Agreed entirely. Students in the senior cycle hoping to get a decent leaving cert have more than enough work to do without this kind of nonsense.

smacl

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Every other kid in the classroom probably has the same homework. Why should this kid get to do homework and the rest have to take the class?

Because the child isn't taking the class, it is a de facto free period for him and he is only in that classroom at that time because he has to be under the supervision of a teacher while on school premises. Ideally, he should be able to go to the library to study or do homework.

Peregrinus

Lucy8080 wrote: »

It seems to me that this teacher is obliging the o.p. by letting the child sit in with the class. A class that the child has opted out of. The teacher is being treated like a baby-sitter.

It's kind of insulting to his professional integrity. I doubt if the teacher has any obligation towards this kid. His duty is to those kids who are taking the subject.

If the parent can't take responsibility for the child's free time, then maybe the child should take the class ,as it seems s/he is going to be there anyway.

How would any teacher feel about a scenario in which a kid can sit in the classroom and have a pass to totally ignore the subject,whilst every other kid has to participate.

My guess is that the school/teacher are praying that the o.p. has the nerve to go make a complaint.

Take the class .Take the offer of babysitting, but to demand that the kid can study any other subject bar this teachers subject in this teachers own classroom, well , that is taking the proverbial.

No teacher, of any subject, should have to put up with that nonsense.

The teacher is not obliging the OP. The OP doesn't want their son to be in the class, and the student himself does not want to be there. It's the school that's insisting that he be there - presumably, so that they don't have to provide another staff member to supervise him.

The bottom line here is that the student has a legal right to opt out of religious instruction, and he has exercised that right. This presents the school with resourcing problem, but that is not the student's fault, or his parent's fault. The solution is to have the boy present in the classroom where religious instruction is provided so that he is not unsupervised, which I get may not be entirely satisfactory from the teacher's point of view, but it's not entirely satisfactory from the student's point of view either; it's certainly not being done as a favour to him or to his parents.

And I still do not see why the teacher's position is made any worse if the student spends his timing doing, say, Maths, rather than reading aimlessly or gazing out of the window.

Crispycool

Choochtown wrote: »

Yeah he's timetabled for 2 periods a week with no alternative.

That's ridiculous to be spending 2 classes a week on a subject that won't come up on the leaving cert. They should ask the students if they would prefer to do religion or to to use the class time to study. I'm sure there would be a lot more students opting out of religion if they had that choice

Peregrinus

Crispycool wrote: »

That's ridiculous to be spending 2 classes a week on a subject that won't come up on the leaving cert. They should ask the students if they would prefer to do religion or to to use the class time to study. I'm sure there would be a lot more students opting out of religion if they had that choice

They do have that choice.

But I think you're wrong in assuming that it's not a leaving cert subject. It wasn't in my day, and perhaps in yours, but it is now.

Crispycool

Peregrinus wrote: »

They do have that choice.

But I think you're wrong in assuming that it's not a leaving cert subject. It wasn't in my day, and perhaps in yours, but it is now.

Oh so the students are choosing to do religion in their leaving cert, that's different then. Two classes a week is not nearly enough time spent on a leaving cert subject

Peregrinus

Crispycool wrote: »

Oh so the students are choosing to do religion in their leaving cert, that's different then. Two classes a week is not nearly enough time spent on a leaving cert subject

There is a Religion syllabus and exam in the Leaving Cert. Not everybody who studies religion at school necessarily sits the Leaving Cert exam in Religion, but the possibility is there.

Obviously, I don't know whether in this particular case the students in this school are intended to take Leaving Cert religion, or whether the school's religion classes are geared towards this. At two periods a week, perhaps not.

FWIW, when I was doing the Leaving Cert, back in the late middle ages, I was quite glad to be taking one subject that wasn't an exam subject. If it had been available as an exam subject, I don't know that I would have been pleased about that. So if people are taking it as a non-exam subject, I wouldn't assume that's burdensome to them. If it is, they do have a right to opt out.

peekachoo

Ahhh. Reminds me of my old school. I went to a CEIST school where students didn't take religion as a LC subject still had one period a week of "non-exam" religion class. I went to the first few, teacher was a nutjob who raved about the sins of stem cell research and abortions (this was only like 3 years ago as well mind you :pac:). So I stopped going.
Spent my free period in the assembly hall doing some work for my actual exam subjects. The religion teacher brought me to the principal one day. Turns out the principal thought it was as ridiculous as I do so he didn't mind me skipping out to do my own work.
The fact that your son is not being allowed to do work is ridiculous and forcing him to do some sort of "faith study" is discrimination in my eyes. He says he has no faith and then what do they expect him to read during the class??? If the principal does not help I would be inclined to give him notes for permission to leave school and even go to the public library or something. This sort of action would get the principal's attention, as would some sort of letter written to the board. What a waste of valuable school hours, especially in LC years!

daheff

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I don't understand why a fifth year student needs a parent to pick them up. Is there any way , written approval from the parent say, to get around this? It seems a bit nanny state.

Is a parent required to pick the student up after school? If not, why when he has a free period?



Seems a bit like the school is being difficult too because hes not doing religion.

Tenigate

smacl wrote: »

Because the child isn't taking the class, it is a de facto free period for him and he is only in that classroom at that time because he has to be under the supervision of a teacher while on school premises. Ideally, he should be able to go to the library to study or do homework.

Except it's not a de-facto period & the school is making sure it stays that way.

Not sure if it's the one used by the op's son's school, however, have a look at the curriculum from this site.
http://www.curriculumonline.ie/getmedia/5e6062d7-111e-4105-b81a-089fc73be199/SCSEC30_Religion_nonexam_syllabus_eng.pdf

Summary of contents
Section A - The Search for meaning
Section B – Christianity
Section C – Religious faiths in Ireland today
Section D – Morality in action
Section E – God-talk
Section F – A living faith – doing justice
Section G – Celebrating faith
Section H – Story

By reading through it, you'll see it's not at all an indoctrination into Catholicism and there is plenty of opportunity to adopt critical views, debate, and learn about religion's impact on society and culture.

Frowzy

I see everyone's point here, and I'm not religious myself. Two things spring to mind here as a parent of a child in LC cycle also:

(1) We can't opt out of everything in life.
Education for our children is obviously to teach them about life; as well as academic work they have subjects like PE, Religion, Computing and LCVP. Only LCVP is an exam subject but each of the other options equally teach our children about being adults as well as a life skill.
If we allow our children to opt out of everything then are we as parents teaching them to be intolerant of everything outside of their personal beliefs or interests? Sometimes in life we have to do, or put up with, things that don't directly concern us. That's life. It's an hour a week that may just teach our children that there are other viewpoints or life experiences outside of their tunnel vision.

(2) Religion these days isn't just about Christianity
In religion class these days students don't just read the bible or learn about the life of Jesus of Nazereth as we did in my days at school. Currently they are taught about all the other religions, beliefs and options out there. My personal belief is that to be a well rounded member of society that it is important that our children understand the viewpoints and beliefs of other religions/beliefs, otherwise how can they respect others viewpoints? And if they can't respect other people's viewpoints then how can they respect theirs to be respected.
Now I can only speak for my own child's school and they have a very fair and open curriculum for Religion class, perhaps it would help you if you requested a copy if the curriculum being taught.

This is just my perspective, and I know that in my child's school they have a very understanding Principal and Religion Teacher. I hope that you can work this out and achieve the best outcome for your own child. Twiddling their thumbs for the year is not the answer.

Lucy8080

Peregrinus wrote: »

The teacher is not obliging the OP. The OP doesn't want their son to be in the class, and the student himself does not want to be there. It's the school that's insisting that he be there - presumably, so that they don't have to provide another staff member to supervise him.

The bottom line here is that the student has a legal right to opt out of religious instruction, and he has exercised that right. This presents the school with resourcing problem, but that is not the student's fault, or his parent's fault. The solution is to have the boy present in the classroom where religious instruction is provided so that he is not unsupervised, which I get may not be entirely satisfactory from the teacher's point of view, but it's not entirely satisfactory from the student's point of view either; it's certainly not being done as a favour to him or to his parents.

And I still do not see why the teacher's position is made any worse if the student spends his timing doing, say, Maths, rather than reading aimlessly or gazing out of the window.

Limited resources on all sides seems to be one thing we are all agreed on.

Maybe the answer is to ask that the kid sit in with a teacher whose subject he is taking.

If there is some legal waiver the o.p. can sign that allows the kid out of school on his own, would be another.

I think the teacher here is within their rights to be a bit miffed that a kid can opt out of his class and then stroll back in and demand their own terms.

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Lucy8080

daheff wrote: »

Is a parent required to pick the student up after school? If not, why when he has a free period?



Seems a bit like the school is being difficult too because hes not doing religion.

yup, there must be a way , somehow, that the kid can leave the school during his free period and solve everyone's problem.

Tenigate

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So if its optional - it should be possible to opt out and not be punished for it.

Plenty of optional standards are adopted by organisations who make them mandatory for members/employees/etc.. seriously, are you being like this on purpose?

mahamageehad

Absolutely ridiculous carry on tbh.
People wonder why there are so many complaints about Millennials being useless and helpless, but don't question a school that insists a parent is available to collect and return a 16/17 year old student for a 40 min class twice a week.

From the OP, I doubt that this is being taught as an exam subject, otherwise the uptake would be much less and there would be a diff option available for the kid. I did religion for JC (one of the first years they had that exam) and it was actually grand- very little focus on "Jesus religion" and more about understanding world religions. However, for 5th and 6th year religion was a required class with no exam and we had one of those hellfire teachers spouting hate against homosexuality, other religions, stem cells etc. I opted out of that class after a series of meetings with the principal and did study in the study hall alone. I was 17, I didn't need supervision. Hell, I walked to and from school, and down town on lunch break, so what difference would one class alone twice a week make??

I think OP has a case to take this up with the school, but ideally the kid themselves would go to the principal to argue it out again. Seems to me the school are being deliberately obtuse here.

Tenigate

mahamageehad wrote: »

Absolutely ridiculous carry on tbh.
People wonder why there are so many complaints about Millennials being useless and helpless, but don't question a school that insists a parent is available to collect and return a 16/17 year old student for a 40 min class twice a week.

Isn't the problem with millennials that they are all snowflakes who can't handle alternative views and require safe zones away from opinions they don't agree with?

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Lucy8080

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The terms are the wish to use this teacher's class to work on any subject bar the one the rest of the class have to take. It's not a respectful position to place a teacher in.

The offer to study something relating to the class is reasonable. The request to not disturb the class/be quiet is reasonable.

mahamageehad

Tenigate wrote: »

Isn't the problem with millennials that they are all snowflakes who can't handle alternative views and require safe zones away from opinions they don't agree with?

I think technically, based on my online research, millennials are at fault for most things wrong with the world today. Millennials is everyone of a certain age therefore a neutral term, whereas people of all ages can be snowflakes, which is imo a derogatory term.

Anyways that's neither here nor there in relation to my point which was mandating a parent to collect and return a 16/17 year old student is absolutely insane. That person is practically an adult. I'd understand it if they were 6/7 but this is crazy. That kid can legally drop out of school now if they want like. It's nannying to the extreme.

kylith

Frowzy wrote: »

I see everyone's point here, and I'm not religious myself. Two things spring to mind here as a parent of a child in LC cycle also:

(1) We can't opt out of everything in life.
Education for our children is obviously to teach them about life; as well as academic work they have subjects like PE, Religion, Computing and LCVP. Only LCVP is an exam subject but each of the other options equally teach our children about being adults as well as a life skill.

How on earth does religion teach students about being an adult?

Even when I was in school I wanted the mandatory religion class (which was a doss) to be changed to something that would actually teach people to be an adult; like budgeting or nutrition.

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