Is there anything constructive I can do about this discrimination?

Peregrinus

Tenigate wrote: »

The problem is: the student does not have a free period. Once you grasp this fact, everything else will make sense.

Yes, he does. He's not taking religion. He has no class scheduled for the period when his clasmates are doing religion. That's how he ends up with a free period. That's pretty much the definition of "free period", really.

qrx

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Detention? Another lesson for any one else who wants to opt out?

mmm. Probably easier said than done but I would take a stand. Do my study, do not turn up for detention or accept any sort of punishment. If they want to push it further then the matter will finally get peoples attention (who those people are I don't know, the board, the patron body).

You're allowed to opt out of religion, what they are trying to do is force it down his throat against his will by making him sit front and centre and refusing him permission to do any other school work, effectively forcing him to absorb their religious teachings against his will. That is not what opting out means. It clearly needs to be taken further but to get there and to get people to listen will require an escalation in the dispute.

ford2600

Is this not really simple; the OP's son has made a decision to opt out of religion class.

By doing so he frees up time for study on other subjects; that is a potentially attractive proposition for other ambitious students. If he is allowed study then others might also opt out making the teacher somewhat less relevant/influential.

The teacher is protecting his patch and is prepared to inhibit learning to do so. Sad.

mahamageehad

kylith wrote: »

...
I'd be curious as to what the school's policy is for pupils who have opted out of language or music classes. I remember having a couple of free periods a week when I was in the run up to leaving; which were spent in the school library with students from many years, and which was supervised by whatever teacher also had a free period.

I know that in the school I went to there were very few free classes.
Having talked to friends, the set up in their schools was similar.
Lets say you've 60 kids- 20 each in 5A, 5B and 5C.
Each class would have set times for required subjects - English, Irish and Maths. They also had set times for required non-exam subjects - PE and Religion (might be one more I'm forgetting). All other subjects were selected by stream i.e you need to pick 4 more subjects, one from each of these brackets. Those electives would run at the same time. So a double class Monday afternoon may be dedicated to stream 1 so students would either choose Home Ec, History, Woodwork or Biology. So there were no free classes really (with the exception of teachers not showing up or anyone that opted out of religion).

smacl

ford2600 wrote: »

The teacher is protecting his patch and is prepared to inhibit learning to do so. Sad.

Certainly seems to be a case of 'Those that can, do' viewed at face value.

neonsofa

Does your son know what normal procedure is for those who opt out of PE, due to injury or whatever else, do they have to just watch or are they allowed do work?

mahamageehad

qrx wrote: »

mmm. Probably easier said than done but I would take a stand. Do my study, do not turn up for detention or accept any sort of punishment. If they want to push it further then the matter will finally get peoples attention (who those people are I don't know, the board, the patron body).

You're allowed to opt out of religion, what they are trying to do is force it down his throat against his will by making him sit front and centre and refusing him permission to do any other school work, effectively forcing him to absorb their religious teachings against his will. That is not what opting out means. It clearly needs to be taken further but to get there and to get people to listen will require an escalation in the dispute.

Would it be an option for him to turn up with headphones and listen to relevant podcasts? Or even music?

ford2600 wrote: »

...

The teacher is protecting his patch and is prepared to inhibit learning to do so. Sad.

Are there secondary teachers that only teach religion? I thought most had at least 2 subjects? I understand the point about a teacher trying to protect their patch, but surely keeping him in the room keeps it top of mind for the other students that it's possible to drop out of the class? Out of sight, out of mind and all that.

qrx

mahamageehad wrote: »

Would it be an option for him to turn up with headphones and listen to relevant podcasts? Or even music?

I doubt earphones are allowed in school. Maybe ear plugs and take a nap?

Lucy8080

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not so much mad speculation as a persistent attempt to ignore the problem.

The problem is not that the pupil has to stay in the classroom during his free period. The problem is that, while in the classroom during his free period, he is not allowed to do schoolwork, homework, or any work relating to any of the subjects that he is studying at the school. There is no good reason for this. That's the problem. It shouldn't be that difficult to grasp.

This kid only has a free period if the parent collects the child and drops him back to school. Not an option that is open to many ,but no one can blame the school.

If the parent doesn't do this, the kid must be supervised by someone in the school.

There goes your free period, because you will never guess who is the only teacher available to supervise you !

And that teacher seems to have some class rules that pertain to pupils he has been asked to supervise, even though he has a class to teach.

It's genius.

Tenigate is right, the kid doesn't have a free period, he has the illusion of having one.

And isn't the teacher nice , stepping in to mind the kid because the parent has to work. It would be a bit rude and ungrateful if one were to make demands of this guy when you also need his help. "How very dare you" he might say.

Lucy8080

qrx wrote: »

mmm. Probably easier said than done but I would take a stand. Do my study, do not turn up for detention or accept any sort of punishment. If they want to push it further then the matter will finally get peoples attention (who those people are I don't know, the board, the patron body).

You're allowed to opt out of religion, what they are trying to do is force it down his throat against his will by making him sit front and centre and refusing him permission to do any other school work, effectively forcing him to absorb their religious teachings against his will. That is not what opting out means. It clearly needs to be taken further but to get there and to get people to listen will require an escalation in the dispute.

There is no force here. But, there doesn't need to be, most parents won't be able to pick and collect the kid, which leaves them depending on the school to come up with a solution to their problem.

I'd say that we can all guess the solution by now.

kylith

mahamageehad wrote: »

I know that in the school I went to there were very few free classes.
Having talked to friends, the set up in their schools was similar.

Well, different schools are different. There were about 150 girls in my year and it seems that it simply wasn't possible for them to schedule all the classes without gaps so I, at least, wound up with a couple of free periods a week. These were officially labelled 'study' periods and were taken in the library. I got a head start on homework or studied, or read a book, or whatever. The teacher there was to supervise and did not tell us what should or should not be done as long as we were quiet and at our desks.

Religion, which one could not opt out of, was taken in our tutor group. Non-Catholics were permitted to do homework down the back of the class, which made us quite jealous, at least in 1st and 2nd year. I don't know if they were allowed to go to the library in later years as there were no non-catholics in my year after 2nd.

Sleepy

1moo345 wrote: »

But.. If a student isn't religious themselves, why is it harmful to learn about religions anyway? It's something they will come into contact in everyday life, with a lot of diverse people and different cultures in Ireland. I understand a lot of people are anti religion, or just opt out, but surely it applies to everyone?

It only applies to everyone because religious institutions have been allowed to have (or have taken by force) undue influence in the governance of nation states.

Teaching children about religions legitimises them. It implies that such disgusting behaviours as Judaism's butchery of infants, Islam's mistreatment of women, Christianity's hatred of homosexuality, Scientology's insanity etc. etc. etc. are views that are somehow above reproach for being "religious beliefs".

To those who recognise religious beliefs as the, predominantly geographically determined, self-deluding choices they are, teaching our children that they're worthy of respect (rather than derision) is abhorrent.


Mod: warning applied in error, apologies, it will be removed.

qrx

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/school-religion-primary-secondary-opting-out/

I would say someone in 5th year is old enough to take care of himself. you as a parent are legally responsible for him, meaning if something happens the school is not to blame. That is not to say that you must personally come and collect him and mind him for an hour. He can head off for the period by himself and come back, if you as a parent trust him enough. If there is a library nearby or a coffee shop then problem sorted.

mahamageehad

kylith wrote: »

Well, different schools are different. There were about 150 girls in my year and it seems that it simply wasn't possible for them to schedule all the classes without gaps so I, at least, wound up with a couple of free periods a week. These were officially labelled 'study' periods and were taken in the library. I got a head start on homework or studied, or read a book, or whatever. The teacher there was to supervise and did not tell us what should or should not be done as long as we were quiet and at our desks.

Religion, which one could not opt out of, was taken in our tutor group. Non-Catholics were permitted to do homework down the back of the class, which made us quite jealous, at least in 1st and 2nd year. I don't know if they were allowed to go to the library in later years as there were no non-catholics in my year after 2nd.

Oh I understand completely, I was just using that as an example of a school that didn't have free classes. When I opted out of religion it was an issue at first coz there was no structure for free classes. I went to the study hall which was also the canteen. Maybe that's the case here, hence why allowing them to go to a study room or library isn't an option? I mean, the school could just be being malicious and punishing the kid for opting out, but I'd try and rule out basic logistic issues first. Only OP can clarify the school set up though.

mahamageehad

qrx wrote: »

I doubt earphones are allowed in school. Maybe ear plugs and take a nap?

As a student I think I'd be more disrupted by the lad at the front taking a snooze than a lad at the back quietly studying! :pac:

.......

This post has been deleted.

Lucy8080

Yup, clarification is needed here by the o.p.

The demand that a parent has to collect/drop off a kid with a free period seems to be the schools ace in the hole here.

If o.p. gets around that ,the kid is free and easy.

smacl

mahamageehad wrote: »

I know that in the school I went to there were very few free classes.
Having talked to friends, the set up in their schools was similar.
Lets say you've 60 kids- 20 each in 5A, 5B and 5C.
Each class would have set times for required subjects - English, Irish and Maths. They also had set times for required non-exam subjects - PE and Religion (might be one more I'm forgetting). All other subjects were selected by stream i.e you need to pick 4 more subjects, one from each of these brackets. Those electives would run at the same time. So a double class Monday afternoon may be dedicated to stream 1 so students would either choose Home Ec, History, Woodwork or Biology. So there were no free classes really (with the exception of teachers not showing up or anyone that opted out of religion).

This can run into time-tabling problems in practise, as all teachers typically can't teach all subjects. So for example if you have 150 students broken down into 6 classes of 25 each, all studying maths, they can't all have a maths class at the same time unless you have 6 maths teachers. Time tabling with limited teaching resources can be a complex problem and it will often result in gaps in some students schedule. This can become more pronounced as you combine honours and pass levels and popular and unpopular subjects in the senior cycle.

qrx

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Yup, clarification is needed here by the o.p.

The demand that a parent has to collect/drop off a kid with a free period seems to be the schools ace in the hole here.

If o.p. gets around that ,the kid is free and easy.

They have no right to demand. They are saying they are not responsible for him and then demanding that he must be collected in person by the parent. Well they're not responsible for him, it's none of their business if the parent gives the kid permission to head off to a coffee shop by himself.

Tenigate

Listen to you people!

The kid isn't getting out for the coffee. Get real!

.......

This post has been deleted.

mahamageehad

Tenigate wrote: »

Listen to you people!

The kid isn't getting out for the coffee. Get real!

I'm sorry, is this child's religious education or lack thereof, impacting your view of reality???! Perhaps you're a religion teacher so this has the potential to impact your profession, but other than that I don't see how it affects you. The OP didn't ask if the child should opt out, they asked for practical advice.

qrx

Tenigate wrote: »

Listen to you people!

The kid isn't getting out for the coffee. Get real!

What's unrealistic is a school thinking they can outwit Irish, European and international law.

robindch

Mod:

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Or is that just mad speculation on my part?

Lucy - you might recall from your previous visits to A+A and the various inthread warnings you receive at the time, that the forum is for discussion of whatever topics happen by. The forum is not for the delivery of unhelpful, tonedeaf posts, the majority of which are borderline trollery.

If you've nothing useful to add, there are plenty of places on the internet which you might enjoy a little more than here.

robindch

qrx wrote: »

What's unrealistic is a school thinking they can outwit Irish, European and international law.

The Vatican has managed it. One would imagine the schools which it vicariously controls would have little trouble replicating that success.

Mark Hamill

Lucy8080 wrote: »

The kid has opted-out of this class. Why would any kid take this class if the teacher is prepared to just mind you all whilst you do homework/revision relating to any other subjects bar the one he teaches. I'd say that the teacher is not too willing to let the rest of the class get the idea that opting out of his subject brings rewards like getting your homework done on school time. If he did, he might as well get his cards and go home, because every kid will want to opt-out.

This kid should be in any other classroom bar this one for his free period. I have sympathy for both the kid and the teacher here .

So the kids isn't allowed to do his homework/study in class because then all the other would see the benefit of him doing so and want to do the same? I'm right back at my first suggestion in this thread:

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If your son doing school work doing religion would be unfair on the other students then maybe suggest that those other students should be doing school work too.

smacl

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Yeah, my curiosity is peaked too.

Can anyone answer Kyliths question above.

Don't know how it works in other schools, but back in the dim and distant past when I was at school we usually went to the library for a free period. During my later years we got a computer and I spent my time learning to program. In my daughters school she goes to the sixth year common room and has a coffee and studies. Don't know what she did in previous years but I can certainly ask.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Mark Hamill

Frowzy wrote: »

Apologies for being boring and pedantic by quoting two replies, however I feel that it's important to note that my posts have said that understanding, patience and tolerance are important. My belief, which I understand differs to yours, is that we can only be patient and tolerant when we understand where the other persons beliefs come from. Therefore a Religion class that teaches about other beliefs is helpful. Not being able to opt out of everything that differs from your personal beliefs can also promote understanding, patience and tolerance.

I totally get what you're saying about budgeting etc, in my day we had civics class, and some of this was intended to be included in LCVP, but that again is an opt out subject, and whether or not these topics are included remains (for me at least) to be seen.

Of course as parents we cannot abdicate all of this type of education to the schools, some of these life skills are instilled mostly in the home. All the skills we've both mentioned above can be taught from a young age in the home also. This is where my point about whether allowing our children to opt out of anything that differs from our or theirs viewpoint may not be right (I'm not saying I'm right). However from class discussion children will learn so much about others viewpoints that they will not learn in our homes. Personally I think this too is important.

None of this really answers my questions:
How does a religion class actually teach of this?
Why should it be taught specifically through religion classes when patience and tolerance go far beyond religious beliefs?

neonsofa

....... wrote: »

The OP should find out what the schools policy is if a kid has to opt out of PE for example, following a surgery. Ill bet they are not just told to sit quietly in the PE hall (or outside) or study a book about athletics.

neonsofa wrote: »

Does your son know what normal procedure is for those who opt out of PE, due to injury or whatever else, do they have to just watch or are they allowed do work?

Great minds...