Bus Stops within Viewing Distance of each Other

Neon_Lights

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Seems a fairly reasonable estimate. 1K in 10/11 minutes would be a normal enough walk which is about 100/90 metres a minute.

People underestimate the length/time of 100/200 metres because of athletics on TV imo !

Maybe at its at preferred walking speed 5kph, I think I walk faster maybe, it's comparable to walking a football field and a half in 2 mins, that's pretty slow I would have thought?

Dravokivich

Neon_Lights wrote: »

Maybe at its at preferred walking speed 5kph, I think I walk faster maybe, it's comparable to walking a football field and a half in 2 mins, that's pretty slow I would have thought?

Dunno 'bout you, but I ain't one for marching.

vmb

Neon_Lights wrote: »

Maybe at its at preferred walking speed 5kph, I think I walk faster maybe, it's comparable to walking a football field and a half in 2 mins, that's pretty slow I would have thought?

Infrastructure is not made based on your gait speed, it is made for all of us. Youngs, elders, healthy, disabled people.

Though I think a lot of stops are way too close, we have to think global

amtc

I have a colleague who is Chinese and her mother recently came over to visit her. Before she left my colleague asked her the strangest thing about Ireland, expecting food, culture etc. The answer she got was the really short distance between bus stops!

magicbastarder

Neon_Lights wrote: »

Who takes 2 mins to walk 170m?

Google probably use minutes as the smallest division of time. Saying it would take one minute would imply a walking speed of over 10km/h.

Annasopra

LXFlyer wrote: »

Ideally, a review of bus stop locations should form part of the Bus Connects project, including distance between stops and whether the stop design is adequate for the number of services using it and also from a safety perspective.

Definitely. I have seen a stop increase in usage by a few hundred percent since a secondary school opened inside it and it is now completely unsafe.

Annasopra

devnull wrote: »

It differs wildly by route to be honest, there are some routes, like the 40D for example where the last stage is down as Tyrrelstown but there are about 5-6 stops there.

There are also used to be some routes where one stop would be one stage and the next stop would be 2-3 stages later, but I can't remember what they were other than they ran past the Hermitage

This stages thing is just archaic at this stage. Talk about a hangover from hundreds of years ago.

bucketybuck

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

This stages thing is just archaic at this stage. Talk about a hangover from hundreds of years ago.

I still have no ****ing clue how the stages thing is supposed to work. I had been told it was something to do with the number of stops but then in this thread we have somebody saying it has nothing to do with the number of stops, which is it? Can anybody explain?

If fares are supposed to be based upon stages then you should be able to get on a bus and say "X stages please" and pay for X stages. But good luck with that I bet.

Dravokivich

bucketybuck wrote: »

I still have no ****ing clue how the stages thing is supposed to work. I had been told it was something to do with the number of stops but then in this thread we have somebody saying it has nothing to do with the number of stops, which is it? Can anybody explain?

If fares are supposed to be based upon stages then you should be able to get on a bus and say "X stages please" and pay for X stages. But good luck with that I bet.

It's the same as having zones with the luas. Except there's more of them, they are per route and they aren't clearly identified.

StreetLight

A stage is just a location on a route. It mostly corresponds with a bus stop, it may not.

Take a look at a portion of the stage list on Route 69:
37 63 Naas Rd. (Fox and Geese)
38 62 Naas Rd. (John Sisk and Sons)
39 61 Naas Rd. (Red Cow Inn)

There are outbound bus stops at Fox & Geese and Red Cow Inn, but not at John Sisk. There used to be one there years ago, but not any more. However, it's still a stage point in use to calculate the fare for the journey.

dfx-

A stage is a collection of stops, usually two or three stops per stage...

Yet you look at some and every stop is a stage in itself...the 13/68/69 has seven stages on the Naas Road. Practically every stop is a stage.

r93kaey5p2izun

There are two 25a/b stops ridiculously close together on Pearse Street - stop 400 and 7588.

StreetLight

bucketybuck wrote: »

I still have no ****ing clue how the stages thing is supposed to work. I had been told it was something to do with the number of stops but then in this thread we have somebody saying it has nothing to do with the number of stops, which is it? Can anybody explain?

If fares are supposed to be based upon stages then you should be able to get on a bus and say "X stages please" and pay for X stages. But good luck with that I bet.

A stage point is just a location on a route. It mostly corresponds with a bus stop, it may not.

Take a look at a portion of the stage list on Route 69:
37 63 Naas Rd. (Fox and Geese)
38 62 Naas Rd. (John Sisk and Sons)
39 61 Naas Rd. (Red Cow Inn)

There are outbound bus stops at Fox & Geese and Red Cow Inn, but not at John Sisk. There used to be one there years ago, but not any more. However, it's still a stage point in use to calculate the fare for the journey.

bucketybuck

And how do I find out what these stages are? Where they start and finish?

KD345

bucketybuck wrote: »

And how do I find out what these stages are? Where they start and finish?

The stages for each route are listed at the bottom of each timetable on the Dublin Bus website and app. You can also see the stage stops on the fare calculator on the app.

LXFlyer

bucketybuck wrote: »

I still have no ****ing clue how the stages thing is supposed to work. I had been told it was something to do with the number of stops but then in this thread we have somebody saying it has nothing to do with the number of stops, which is it? Can anybody explain?

If fares are supposed to be based upon stages then you should be able to get on a bus and say "X stages please" and pay for X stages. But good luck with that I bet.

bucketybuck wrote: »

And how do I find out what these stages are? Where they start and finish?

The staged fare system was introduced in 1968 to allow people taking different length journeys pay the appropriate fare in a multi-fare structure.

It is not based on stops, but in general is distance based, although as routes have changed over the years this has been stretched in some places.

It also facilitated people travelling from a particular point to the city centre by two differing routes to pay the same fare, despite one route being longer than the other. For example the fare from UCD to Dublin City Centre would be the same if you took a 10 (39a nowadays) or a 46a despite one going a longer route via Baggot Street.

As fares have simplied in recent years this latter point has become less of an issue.

A secondary point is that until the mid-1990s the fare stage numbers were clearly indicated on the relevant bus stops, but some genius decided to remove them, a nonsensical decision.

You have to look under the relevant Dublin Bus timetable to see where the stages are located - take the 14 timetable below:

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/14-2/

As a general rule, the city centre stage is stage 25 heading south (rising as you head south) or 75 heading north or west, dropping as you head further north or west.

So stages 25 and 75 are at Eden Quay, the main city centre stop on the 14.

However here is how you calculate the number of stages:

The number of stages travelled is calculated by deducting the boarding stage number from the alighting stage number

Passengers boarding between stage points pay the appropriate fare from the preceding stage point.

Passengers alighting between stage points pay the appropriate fare to the next stage point.

Annasopra

As I said the stage system is archaic

LXFlyer

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

As I said the stage system is archaic

Yes and no. It still means that anyone taking a similar distance trip pays the same fare. But it isn't as easy to maintain when you want to introduce smart cards.

Under a zonal system charging distance based fares becomes difficult for orbital journeys especially.

Bus Eireann uses a similar system.

The staged fare system will remain in place (in my view) until a new way of funding the bus company is introduced, as otherwise the company would lose out on the farebox revenue that it depends upon.

LXFlyer

As I mentioned earlier, I do believe that the more immediate solution to this problem (at peak times) is the introduction of more peak time Xpresso routes.

And it would seem that the NTA & Dublin Bus concur.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Introduction-of-Route-39x/

Introduction of Route 39x
Published on Wednesday, September 20, 2017
We are delighted to announce the introduction of a new xpresso service, Route 39x from Monday 9 October 2017.

Route 39x will operate from Ongar to Burlington Road with 8 trips Monday to Friday. This includes four morning departures from Ongar at 07.00, 07.15, 07.30, 07.45 and four evening departures from Burlington Road at 16.55,17.10,17.25 and 17.40.

The new route will serve 28 stops inbound and outbound. This is 40 less stops than Route 39, resulting in a faster, more direct route to and from the city centre during peak commuter hours.

View stops on Route 39x towards Burlington Road

View stops on Route 39x towards Ongar

View timetable for new Route 39x

All changes have been approved by the National Transport Authority.

_Kaiser_

LXFlyer wrote: »

As I mentioned earlier, I do believe that the more immediate solution to this problem (at peak times) is the introduction of more peak time Xpresso routes.

And it would seem that the NTA & Dublin Bus concur.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Introduction-of-Route-39x/

Re-introduction surely? I seem to remember a lot of these services in the mid-late 90s during the CitySwift era.. almost sure there was a 39X then too...

Ah yes, there's even going to be a model



(I miss that CitySwift livery.. really suited the AVs)

Is reinventing the wheel really progress?

LXFlyer

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Re-introduction surely? I seem to remember a lot of these services in the mid-late 90s during the CitySwift era.. almost sure there was a 39X then too...

Ah yes, there's even going to be a model



(I miss that CitySwift livery.. really suited the AVs)

Is reinventing the wheel really progress?

The services were cut back during the recession as part of the necessary cost cutting.

Now with passenger numbers on the rise again it most certainly is the correct approach in the short to medium term.

KD345

LXFlyer wrote: »

The staged fare system was introduced in 1968 to allow people taking different length journeys pay the appropriate fare in a multi-fare structure.

It is not based on stops, but in general is distance based, although as routes have changed over the years this has been stretched in some places.

It also facilitated people travelling from a particular point to the city centre by two differing routes to pay the same fare, despite one route being longer than the other. For example the fare from UCD to Dublin City Centre would be the same if you took a 10 (39a nowadays) or a 46a despite one going a longer route via Baggot Street.

As fares have simplied in recent years this latter point has become less of an issue.

Indeed, as you say, the system has not been updated to mirror the example you give above.

Take, for example, the 27 and 77A. Two major routes to Tallaght. If you board the 27 in Dolphins Barn to travel to The Square, you will pay less than using the 77A, even though you board and alight at the same stop.

It is similar in Charlestown, traveling to Anger Street, it is cheaper to take the less direct 9 rather than the 140.

It is also cheaper to take the 239 from Liffey Valley to Blanchardstown than it is to use the 76A.

Cheaper to take the 122 from Crumlin Hospital to Donore Avenue than it is to take the 150.

Cheaper to take the 84 between Cherrywood and Blackrock than the 7.

Cheaper to use the 7D or 59 between Dalkey and Sandycove DART Station than the 111.

Cheaper to take the 15D from Whitchurch to Kelly's Corner/Camden Street than use the 61.

Cheaper to take the 11 from Sandyford Business District to Pembroke Street than the 116.

Cheaper to take the 123 from College Green to James' Hospital than the 68.

Cheaper to take the 44 from Dundrum to Kelly's Corner/Camden Street than the 14.

There are more examples, but the upkeep of the stage system has fallen down in recent years. It really is no longer useful for passengers - fares should be charged on distance from a to b, not on what route number is on the front of your bus.

We have been told this is all to change with Bus Connects - we shall have to wait and see!

Cookie_Monster

LXFlyer wrote: »

The services were cut back during the recession as part of the necessary cost cutting.

Now with passenger numbers on the rise again it most certainly is the correct approach in the short to medium term.

It's not the ideal solution however as many routes are not covered. Take the 7b or 7d for example. Outbound from town both are treated as a 46a/145 by the majority of passengers, meaning that by Donnybrook they tend to be full, only to empty out by Foxrock mostly, leading to many people who actually need to get the bus being unable to do so, particularly at UCD. Yet there has never been any interest in fixing this with minimum fares or similar. Repeat all over the place during outbound rush hour.
Rush hour only routes like these need action taken as well to sort out these issues.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It's not the ideal solution however as many routes are not covered. Take the 7b or 7d for example. Outbound from town both are treated as a 46a/145 by the majority of passengers, meaning that by Donnybrook they tend to be full, only to empty out by Foxrock mostly, leading to many people who actually need to get the bus being unable to do so, particularly at UCD. Yet there has never been any interest in fixing this with minimum fares or similar. Repeat all over the place during outbound rush hour.
Rush hour only routes like these need action taken as well to sort out these issues.

The 7b and 7d don't operate via Foxrock Church any more - the routing change via Stillorgan Park and Abbey Road means that they carry far more people travelling to/from their unique route sections. Given the frequency of the 46a and 145, and the extra works that start in the city centre I find it difficult to believe that people are being left behind.

The problems that you allude to presumably date from some years back, or have you actually used either of these routes recently?

Minimum fares are pointless now with far more people using LEAP cards. They would be impossible to enforce.

Cookie_Monster

LXFlyer wrote: »

The 7b and 7d don't operate via Foxrock Church any more - the routing change via Stillorgan Park and Abbey Road means that they carry far more people travelling to/from their unique route sections. Given the frequency of the 46a and 145, and the extra works that start in the city centre I find it difficult to believe that people are being left behind.

The problems that you allude to presumably date from some years back, or have you actually used either of these routes recently?

Minimum fares are pointless now with far more people using LEAP cards. They would be impossible to enforce.

Fine, it's slightly out of date, but remains valid none the less. I refuse to believe people who don't need to get those buses instead of 46a / 145 in the CC aren't getting them though. Repeat that all over the city on all rush hour only routes.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Fine, it's slightly out of date, but remains valid none the less. I refuse to believe people who don't need to get those buses instead of 46a / 145 in the CC aren't getting them though. Repeat that all over the city on all rush hour only routes.

They are normal bus routes so anyone can get them - I've taken them myself and I've not seen people being left behind.

There aren't that many non-Xpresso rush hour only routes being honest about it in the evening peak. It's hardly an issue "all over the city".

ED E

Dont think I posted this one before. 75 headed east. 280m, 3 stops.




If we want to improve busses this is one easy win.

AlekSmart

ED E wrote: »

Dont think I posted this one before. 75 headed east. 280m, 3 stops.




If we want to improve busses this is one easy win.

Agree 100%.

Luckily this,and many similar insane situations are likely to come within the BusConnects programme remit.

It has been already pointed out that the NTA's Statemant of Strategy 2016-2022 includes the following....

Promote a shift from the car to more sustainable modes of transport (public transport,
cycling and walking) thereby reducing carbon emissions

Provide appropriate networks and infrastructure for cycling and walking

At it's most basic,this will recognize the limitations of large Diesel vehicles when used in continual start-stop operations,but equally it will provide more "Interchange" style locations where the likes of the 75 will interact with other routes,which will require the authority to radically improve reliability through smoother running schedules.

Bring it on,I say...if only to witness the extra business for Joe Duffy

BonnieSituation

Sutton Big Plankton wrote: »

There are two 25a/b stops ridiculously close together on Pearse Street - stop 400 and 7588.

I was just coming in to post that. They are my bete noir. Though can be handy when you see a bus at the 400 and you're not likely to make it.

r93kaey5p2izun

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I was just coming in to post that. They are my bete noir. Though can be handy when you see a bus at the 400 and you're not likely to make it.

Yes. They're just 82m apart according to google maps. I can't imagine any closer than that elsewhere. The one opposite the drug treatment centre was always there, while the one opposite the Trinity Hotel was a new temporary stop when the one opposite the Garda station closed during Luas works. I don't think it was meant to stay there but when they decided not to move the 25/a/b back down to the Garda station they just left it. It's daft.

loyatemu

Mill Road in Greystones - there are 4 stops within 630 metres (and on this same stretch the 184 takes a 2km detour in and out of Charlesland on the same road, it's ridiculous).

fritzelly

The bus stops in Dublin have always been ridiculous
Look at Dame St, lots of buses stop on Dame St by the ex Central Bank, go round the corner and stop again on Westmoreland St (would be quicker walking if you were that inclined to wait to go round the corner) and then the next stop might be the top of O'Connell St
Makes absolutely no sense
49/54a going out to Tallaght there are some stops less than a minute apart then others that are like 5 mins apart walking. Same thing happens down Cork St and Thomas St as well

Travel around Europe a lot and bus stops are no way near as close as they are in Dublin

Bus stops should be around 5 mins walk apart so not matter where you are it's only a 2/3 min walk (if not more) to catch a bus

27/150 and probably others going that route have about 4 stops in the city - just stupid

This is probably more to do with not having a central bus station in Dublin. Should be no more than 2 stops in the city and heading out of the city about 10 mins walking distance apart

dfx-

Sutton Big Plankton wrote: »

Yes. They're just 82m apart according to google maps. I can't imagine any closer than that elsewhere. The one opposite the drug treatment centre was always there, while the one opposite the Trinity Hotel was a new temporary stop when the one opposite the Garda station closed during Luas works. I don't think it was meant to stay there but when they decided not to move the 25/a/b back down to the Garda station they just left it. It's daft.

There's a couple in the thread that are shorter.

Still no big problem with the number of stops personally. If routes weren't 2 hours long and the frequency was ok, it'd be no problem.