Suicide

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m not defending any bully because there is no bully to defend, not even the bully you invented to fit your narrative you’ve created on the back of what amounts to nothing more than an allegation.

How could you possibly know this? As previously stated, a peculiar defensive tone to your posts. Worth remembering I suppose that on a web forum like this you never know who anyone is. Seems from your posts you have some skin in this game?

the problem with bullying as an allegation is that there is a high percentage of people out there that struggle with interpersonal relationships or daily tasks and that the natural inclination is to personalise this struggle

ive seen managers accused of bullying so often just for attempting to do their job that its unreal.

ive seen far more people unable or unwilling to do their part of the lifting in maintaining even casual work relationships where they decide that theyre being bullied and its almost always fairer to describe it as a clash of personalities or one person simply choosing not to be a close friend/crutch when thats what the self-declared bullying victim would like them to be.

when you see a total lack of evidence as in this case jumped upon as it has been, with people calling for sackings without one shred of evidence, you have to despair. anyone who has ever had to work or interact with people outside of immediate family should know that adaptability and resilience are vital but regardless you are going to run into situations of conflict. jumping to conclusions of 'bullying' simply because one party is claiming it is utterly simplistic and pointless.

the man is dead and we'll never find out his struggles, but to pretend we know enough to make high judgements on his coworkers is an ugly impulse and an act of complete projection.

the reporting of it is tawdry enough but i suppose theres no way to not address the statement that he left, but as OEJ has already correctly argued the last note of a person in these circumstances should be treated with extreme caution as a piece of evidence

Pretzill

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m just not looking to blame anyone else when someone chooses to take their own life is all if that’s what you mean?

I don’t condone suicide anyway, regardless of the circumstances.

But he left a note to his wife which highlighted workplace bullying - did you read the article?

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How could you possibly know this? As previously stated, a peculiar defensive tone to your posts. Worth remembering I suppose that on a web forum like this you never know who anyone is. Seems from your posts you have some skin in this game?

who is the bully so? what story have you got that wouldnt be 99% your own invention?

insinuating that OEJ has anything to do with this simply because theyre arguing against the tabloid-whipped reaction is very poor form imo

Pretzill

Pretzill wrote: »

But he left a note to his wife which highlighted workplace bullying - did you read the article?

what action would you take on such a note?

as an employer, as a prosecutor?

Pretzill

[Deleted User] wrote: »

what action would you take on such a note?

as an employer, as a prosecutor?

Not for me to action. It's just looking like this man was bullied and with dire consequences. There are reasons why people take their own life.

Pretzill

Pretzill wrote: »

Not for me to action. It's just looking like this man was bullied and with dire consequences. There are reasons why people take their own life.

the reasons somebody takes their own life are very often fractured, complex and sometimes based on a perspective that is at the very least flawed.

its rarely a case of one cause neatly laid out, and even if the person themselves does so its not always a reliable perspective.

would you not agree with that much?

i know its not for you to action, but im only asking because you seem ok with drawing conclusions from what we know here.

so i am trying to see how far you think "what we know" goes.

would we not assume the workplace has investigated any evidence of bullying already? the director of public prosecutions wouldn't have looked at criminal liability?

i hate to appeal to the presumed greater detail these actors have but it really isnt something to rush into conclusions about simply by virtue of the man taking his own life, which is of course a tragedy but cannot inform any findings on cause in and if itself.

Pretzill

This is a discussion board not a litigious setting so assuming or presuming isn't even necessary. I was commenting in relation to the article posted and to how it's easy to draw conclusions based on that - what else? It can be unfathomable why someone chooses to end their life but sometimes not so.

JupiterKid

Well, all I can relate is my own experience of workplace bullying which was relentless and horrendous and nearly destroyed me completely. I had a total emotional and mental breakdown and entered a wilderness period where my life was going in only one direction - oblivion.

Thankfully during the past 3 years I have re-emerged from the darkest of places but bullying cost me the best part of a decade of my life and career.

Workplace bullying is something pervasive and corrosive and nothing to be dismissed or made light of.

ILoveYourVibes

I don't want to preach or sound like I am preaching to people who are having these feelings.

But people need to be told its OK to walk away from things in life sometimes. I think people are afraid of looking weak or like failure.

Its better to be vulnerable and ...well here with us.

Pretzill

Very true Jupiter Kid. Bullying is insidious, it's cruel and thoroughly damaging - I often think a bully is immune to seeing the stress and pain they can cause and others rarely pick them up over it. I had a minor experience with it not so long ago and for the first time - the person was sly and surreptitious in their approach, it ended with me parting ways with the company and I still believe no-one realised how I was treated. Though I was well able to handle them I decided I wasn't going to put myself through it and left. So thankfully I came out unscathed - awful to be on the receiving end, though.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

who is the bully so?

I don't know. And neither do you. But the man who killed himself said there was one and I'm inclined believe him. People don't throw away their life without a reason.

Why do you choose to believe he was making it up?

ChikiChiki

Whenever I hear of a suicide, the prevailing thought in my head is that person coming into the world upon birth with all these hopes and dreams and how ****ed up it must have been for them along the way to lead them to that final act.

I have been unfortunate to witness it first hand to a loved one and the mental scars remain at this very moment of the night and will until I depart this world. Suicide is not a natural thing and the scale of devastation left behind is unfathomable for anyone that's been through it.

We all need to look out for one another as it can be a tough old world.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't know. And neither do you. But the man who killed himself said there was one and I'm inclined believe him. People don't throw away their life without a reason.

Why do you choose to believe he was making it up?

i see you havent reconsidered your unsubtle approach. you still looking for a culprit in this thread?

where have i said he was making it up, or used any such terminology?

Mad_maxx

Pretzill wrote: »

Very true Jupiter Kid. Bullying is insidious, it's cruel and thoroughly damaging - I often think a bully is immune to seeing the stress and pain they can cause and others rarely pick them up over it. I had a minor experience with it not so long ago and for the first time - the person was sly and surreptitious in their approach, it ended with me parting ways with the company and I still believe no-one realised how I was treated. Though I was well able to handle them I decided I wasn't going to put myself through it and left. So thankfully I came out unscathed - awful to be on the receiving end, though.

Bullies know exactly what they are doing, they do what they do because of their cruel nature, they like it.

Mad_maxx

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If he was actually clearly being bullied, then there would be evidence of him being bullied. The facts are that it’s not clear he was being bullied, but he felt he was. Whether he was actually being bullied or not, we simply don’t know and may never know, and nobody has any reason to be ashamed of something they haven’t done. All we actually do know for certain is that the man took his own life. We absolutely don’t know why, as is the case with a great number of suicides - we simply don’t know why a person chooses to take their own life, and pointing fingers because of allegations they made before their death isn’t likely to lead to an answer either. It’s far more likely to cause the persecution of innocent individuals.

You say that people aren’t stupid and yet here you are claiming that an individual took their own life because they were clearly being bullied, yet you have no evidence to suggest that they were actually being bullied. Frankly, I beg to differ with your opinion, I would suggest that people can be incredibly stupid, especially in circumstances surrounding a tragedy like suicide where people are looking for someone to blame.

" evidence"?

The bullying could have always taken place when no witnesses were around, verbal bullying does not leave visible evidence and adult bullies always have a strategy, they are careful not to arouse third party suspicion. That way they have plausible deniability and can continue the campaign.

Only the gormless and obtuse are unaware of this.

One eyed Jack

Mad_maxx wrote: »

" evidence"?

The bullying could have always taken place when no witnesses were around, verbal bullying does not leave visible evidence and adult bullies always have a strategy, they are careful not to arouse third party suspicion. That way they have plausible deniability and can continue the campaign.

Only the gormless and obtuse are unaware of this.

And just how gormless and obtuse does one have to be to think it should be acceptable to go on a witch-hunt looking for someone to blame solely on the basis of an allegation with no actual evidence for their claims, and think that is somehow justice? That’s not how our legal system actually works, thankfully for anyone who is presumed innocent until they are actually found guilty on the basis of actual evidence against them that they are actually guilty of any wrongdoing.

Mad_maxx

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And just how gormless and obtuse does one have to be to think it should be acceptable to go on a witch-hunt looking for someone to blame solely on the basis of an allegation with no actual evidence for their claims, and think that is somehow justice? That’s not how our legal system actually works, thankfully for anyone who is presumed innocent until they are actually found guilty on the basis of actual evidence against them that they are actually guilty of any wrongdoing.

You reveal a lot about yourself here with this take.

a bullying campaign can go unnoticed by others due to the careful strategy of the bully yet you persist with your " if no one else saw it, it didn't happen" shtick.

Strumms

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Bullies know exactly what they are doing, they do what they do because of their cruel nature, they like it.

Truth, I’ve seen and heard my bully glorify and sneer at other people when he got ‘one over’ on them, by the nature of what they do it’s calculated and they derive pleasure from it. They are 100% aware.

Strumms

A lot of bullying is invisible to a point...

When I was being snowed under with about 50% more work then teammates and more of ‘work and effort intensive’ tasks at that... on querying and complaining I got told...” you are younger than those guys, you understand and adapt to this new technology better then they do !”... my argument then was..

”great, due to their length of service they are getting paid MORE for taking on less work, less responsibility and more time to do it”

I was then told with an insincere grin...

“Sure you’ll be their age one day, glad of the young bucks to pull the cart”

Employees are equal, expectations should be equal..everything should be

One eyed Jack

Mad_maxx wrote: »

You reveal a lot about yourself here with this take.

a bullying campaign can go unnoticed by others due to the careful strategy of the bully yet you persist with your " if no one else saw it, it didn't happen" shtick.

You’re doing the same as Wanderer earlier with that “read between the lines” stuff. There is nothing revealed about me in my post, only what you choose to read into it. What I’ve written is fact.

I’m well aware that a bullying campaign can go unnoticed, I’m well aware that everyone can be in on it too and choose to do nothing about it. I’m well aware that a person can feel they are being bullied and claim they are being bullied and tell others to stand up to the bullies, when they aren’t being bullied,

The circumstances of that mans death are tragic, but his decision to take his own life is something only he is responsible for, nobody else. His suicide and the message he wrote on the wall are still not evidence that anyone was actually bullying him. In order to punish anyone for bullying there has to be evidence that they were bullying someone, as opposed to simply claims by a person who took their own life that they were being bullied.

I’m not suggesting that he wasn’t being bullied or that it didn’t happen, I’m stating a fact that without evidence against them, his work colleagues are presumed innocent, and no amount of suggesting anyone “read between the lines” or going on a witch-hunt is consistent with seeking justice.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

i see you havent reconsidered your unsubtle approach. you still looking for a culprit in this thread?

No idea what you're referring to here, and I suspect neither do you.

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Bullies know exactly what they are doing, they do what they do because of their cruel nature, they like it.

And I'd add, just so none of us can escape our conscience if it occurs, bullying is greatly facilitated in workplaces because fellow workers turn a blind eye/ keep their heads down and say nothing. People who are being bullied need to speak up, but people in their working environment who witness it also need to have the courage and decency to report it.

Wanderer2010

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And just how gormless and obtuse does one have to be to think it should be acceptable to go on a witch-hunt looking for someone to blame solely on the basis of an allegation with no actual evidence for their claims, and think that is somehow justice? That’s not how our legal system actually works, thankfully for anyone who is presumed innocent until they are actually found guilty on the basis of actual evidence against them that they are actually guilty of any wrongdoing.

You are like a lawyer defending bullying here, can you hear yourself? The man was driven to suicide by bullying, look at the last thing he wrote and look at the 2 weeks off with stress which you never seem to address. Do you really think there is no connection between his workplace and how he died? Also, if that was your son or father who did that, would you be as lax with your conclusions and just brush it off like "Ah, there is no evidence for it so im not upset and I wont pursue it"?

One eyed Jack

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

You are like a lawyer defending bullying here, can you hear yourself? The man was driven to suicide by bullying, look at the last thing he wrote and look at the 2 weeks off with stress which you never seem to address. Do you really think there is no connection between his workplace and how he died?

Absolutely there is a connection between how he felt he was being treated in the workplace and why he chose to take his own life. That’s all there is though. The rest is just speculation and filling in the blanks on your part.

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Also, if that was your son or father who did that, would you be as lax with your conclusions and just brush it off like "Ah, there is no evidence for it so im not upset and I wont pursue it"?

No, let’s not make this personal at all thanks.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No idea what you're referring to here, and I suspect neither do you.

TimeLadsPlease

Registered User

Quote: One eyed Jack

I’m not defending any bully because there is no bully to defend, not even the bully you invented to fit your narrative you’ve created on the back of what amounts to nothing more than an allegation.


How could you possibly know this? As previously stated, a peculiar defensive tone to your posts. Worth remembering I suppose that on a web forum like this you never know who anyone is. Seems from your posts you have some skin in this game?




now im sure that will come out like a dogs dinner from the phone, but your post is at best a very murkily stated inference that OEJ just loves bullies, at worst you seem to be suggesting hes involved in this instance and referencing a supposed 'defensiveness'

clear enough to me what you're trying to say. shameful enough imo.

Wanderer2010

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Absolutely there is a connection between how he felt he was being treated in the workplace and why he chose to take his own life. That’s all there is though. The rest is just speculation and filling in the blanks on your part.





No, let’s not make this personal at all thanks.

Oh quick reply, you must be here a while now.

So you admit you wouldn't react the same way if it was your own dad or son, in other words you don't stand over any of the conclusions that you made in your previous posts about bullying being of a speculative nature *despite the word bullying being used in the note, but anyway*. and that nobody in the job should be held accountable. Your opinions on this have 0% credibility or integrity since you openly admit you would feel different if your own flesh and blood were involved.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Quote: One eyed Jack

I’m not defending any bully because there is no bully to defend.

How could the poster know there is no bully to defend?? Seriously, how?

And what nonsense is this about me "..looking for a culprit in this thread..." ?

Have to say this thread, originally about suicide, has gone down a very strange combative and argumentative route.

Wanderer2010

Deleted User wrote: »

How could the poster know there is no bully to defend?? Seriously, how?

And what nonsense is this about me "..looking for a culprit in this thread..." ?

Have to say this thread, originally about suicide, has gone down a very strange combative and argumentative route.

When someone claims that a man who takes his own life after putting up a message about standing up to bullies is not connected to bullying in the workplace and staunchly defends the notion of anyone being brought to book over it, well- he has to expect a bit of feedback on this.

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, let’s not make this personal at all thanks.

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

So you admit you wouldn't react the same way if it was your own dad or son, in other words you don't stand over any of the conclusions that you made in your previous posts about bullying being of a speculative nature *despite the word bullying being used in the note, but anyway*. and that nobody in the job should be held accountable. Your opinions on this have 0% credibility or integrity since you openly admit you would feel different if your own flesh and blood were involved.

Are you actually being serious?

Wanderer2010

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Are you actually being serious?

100%. You burst onto this thread staunchly dismissing any suggestion that this incident was connected to workplace bullying, refusing at all times to even consider the possibility that a hideous bully still works there, you ignore the 2 weeks the man took off from work with stress and bang the "there is just no evidence that it was due to bullying, nobody should be brought to justice" etc. Then you admit that if it was your own son or father you wouldn't fee the same. I seriously doubt, and you confirm it, you would be so dispassionate and dismissive if it happened to you.

Face it, your opinions hold no weight at all after that.

Wanderer2010

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

100%. You burst onto this thread staunchly dismissing any suggestion that this incident was connected to workplace bullying, refusing at all times to even consider the possibility that a hideous bully still works there, you ignore the 2 weeks the man took off from work with stress and bang the "there is just no evidence that it was due to bullying, nobody should be brought to justice" etc. Then you admit that if it was your own son or father you wouldn't fee the same. I seriously doubt, and you confirm it, you would be so dispassionate and dismissive if it happened to you.

Face it, your opinions hold no weight at all after that.

He didn't admit anything. He said "no, lets not make things personal".

He didn't answer your question.


The point he is making is that it is possible to feel bullied without actually being bullied. It's a fair point and doesn't deserve the abuse he is getting off you.

You might even say... you are acting like a bully. Ironic that.

DubGirl212

Yes they are still employed there - and as they feel they did nothing wrong, they have absolutely no remorse. But what goes around comes around and at the end of the day, they have to look in the mirror and know that a man died with their names on his last breath.

One eyed Jack

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

100%. You burst onto this thread staunchly dismissing any suggestion that this incident was connected to workplace bullying, refusing at all times to even consider the possibility that a hideous bully still works there, you ignore the 2 weeks the man took off from work with stress and bang the "there is just no evidence that it was due to bullying, nobody should be brought to justice" etc. Then you admit that if it was your own son or father you wouldn't fee the same. I seriously doubt, and you confirm it, you would be so dispassionate and dismissive if it happened to you.

Face it, your opinions hold no weight at all after that.

Respectfully as possible -

First of all, I didn’t burst onto this thread. It’s been going a number of weeks, if not possibly months now and I had contributed earlier so it was in my subscribed threads and came up when it was added to again in recent days with the latest post regarding the ongoing inquest into a mans death by suicide and the posters claim that the supervisor “hadn’t even bothered” to check the cameras. I questioned their claim because it was inconsistent with the facts as reported in the link they had provided.

Secondly, at no point have I ever dismissed any suggestions that this particular incident was connected to workplace bullying. I have pointed out that posters are making that connection because of claims made by the person and his family as though they have factual evidence that any bullying actually took place and someone should be held responsible for the bullying which led to this man’s decision to take his own life. I have pointed out that in order for anyone to be punished for something, there has to be evidence that they have actually done something to be punished for. Simply put - claims of bullying are insufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any one or all of this mans work colleagues are guilty of any wrongdoing.

Thirdly, I didn’t admit anything related to my own personal circumstances or those of my own son or father, much less did I engage in any speculation as to how I would react in the hypothetical circumstances you proposed. I was quite specific in suggesting that I had no interest or intention of engaging in that kind of speculation or entertaining your speculation about my personal circumstances.

In short, and in summary, all you have is speculation, you aren’t even coming close to anything resembling evidence of any claims, and that’s why I object to the idea that your speculation is sufficient evidence to accuse anyone of any wrongdoing, much less convict anyone of any wrongdoing or see them fired from their jobs. That’s precisely why nobody involved has been fired from their jobs as you suggested earlier should be done - simply because there isn’t any evidence that they did anything that could have led to this man’s decision to take his own life. What you’re suggesting wouldn’t be justice, it would be vengeance. Our judicial system doesn’t work like that, it doesn’t presume guilt until proven innocent. It works the other way around.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

DubGirl212 wrote: »

Yes they are still employed there - and as they feel they did nothing wrong, they have absolutely no remorse. But what goes around comes around and at the end of the day, they have to look in the mirror and know that a man died with their names on his last breath.

That’s a comforting thought but it’s not really true. There’s no guarantee that they’ll ever get any kind of karmic comeuppance sadly or feel bad about it.

freshpopcorn

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That’s a comforting thought but it’s not really true. There’s no guarantee that they’ll ever get any kind of karmic comeuppance sadly or feel bad about it.

Couldn't agree more with you.
All this what goes around comes around.
Karma.
Work hard/etc and you'll do well.
Bullies aren't successful/etc is load of rubbish.

freshpopcorn

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