Suicide

dense

Graces7 wrote: »

So what is it you expect from mental health services ? ie issues that can be addressed by services rather than by us as family and friends?

We all get depressed; and get negative and despairing thoughts. It is part of the human condition, not mental illness.

The term mental health as you apply it is inaccurate and misleading? That is why I used the term 'social" rather than mental.

I would fully agree.


Here's a comment from a respondent on a piece carried in the Journal about suicide which sums that aspect up well.

Our mental health issues will never be fixed by money or tablets. Why have our depression rated exploded in the last 20 years? Why have our thoughts become so negative. We need to look at our culture and who we look up to. Trivial Celebrity idol worship, materialism, competitive mindset and of course our denial of alcohol saturation are all making us sick. We have disconnected from our neighbors and even families. It’s time to reject the poison of our culture.

Embracing the current on-trend societal bullshît causes a lot of societal problems for a lot of people.


Problems that have yet to be properly diagnosed are going to be more difficult to identify and treat.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Blaas4life

jacksie66 wrote: »

Society doesn't help depression and whatnot. This drive to impress people, make money, spend it on stuff you don't need. It's all pressure. I started a job a few months ago and it's already starting to take its toll on me mentally. I feel I'm under severe pressure and because I'm over 30 I've been told I need to get a mortgage etc. Luckily I've no debt. I got this job because I was comparing myself to my brothers and others around my age. Now I feel trapped and as if I'm suffocating. Under constant pressure. It's getting too much.

Leave....no job is worth that??


Maybe approach your gp to set yous on to someone you need to talk to....youve identified a problem/pressure act now before it gets too serious in few months time

Samuel T. Cogley

jacksie66 wrote: »

So who does one actually go to for help with serious depression?

Your GP and pray that first or second line antidepressants work.

AndrewJRenko

Blaas4life wrote: »

Leave....no job is worth that??


Maybe approach your gp to set yous on to someone you need to talk to....youve identified a problem/pressure act now before it gets too serious in few months time

Leave is one option all right. Possibly a better option is to get yourself to a place where you can decide that peer pressure doesn't really matter, and you can just ignore it.

RacoonQueen

dense wrote: »

You are presuming here that everyone has a supportive partner, which is fantasy.

Many are stuck in shït relationships with zero emotional support and no one knows what goes on behind closed doors.


I'm struck here by the constant wish to refuse someone the right to take their own life particularly after a referendum that was heralded as being evidence of us now maturing into a pro choice society.

Why the double standards from people?
The right to life side was basically told to mind their own business recently and to respect the choices of others, yet people seem hell bent on meddling and interfering in the lives of grown adults for whom life no longer holds any attraction.

Yes suicide is selfish, and so is projecting our neediness and emotional reaction to it, particularly this modern day phenomenon of distant-mourning random strangers we've never even met or know nothing about who have taken their own lives.

If an adult wants to die, who are we to deny them that right and choice now that we are allegedly so pro choice?

But apparently we know best for those contemplating suicide.
We don't. Sometimes we need to acknowledge this.

I have no idea what any of this has to do with my post, other than us disagreeing about whether suicide is selfish or not. Particularly your first line, that has absolutely nothing to do with my post, made no such comment in my post.

Suicide is not selfish - I despise this comment from people which shows a complete misunderstanding of the position a suicidal person is in and a total lack of empathy.

Cupcake_Crisis

Graces7 wrote: »

So what is it you expect from mental health services ? ie issues that can be addressed by services rather than by us as family and friends?

We all get depressed; and get negative and despairing thoughts. It is part of the human condition, not mental illness.

The term mental health as you apply it is inaccurate and misleading? That is why I used the term 'social" rather than mental.

We don’t all get depressed from time to time. We all get sad, or go through rough patches or have a bad few days. Depression is a different beast altogether. And attitudes like yours, labeling depression as just ‘negative thoughts’ are dangerous imo.

ginandtonicsky

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Depressed people and people with mental illness are continuously told to 'talk to someone' .. talk to who? .....

People get very uncomfortable around any mention of mental disorders, ive learned to hold in any anxious thoughts or behaviors I have around people I know because they will judge me for it as they have done repeatedly in the past. The same people that run darkness into light marathons and share mental health awareness posts on social media are often the same people to turn their backs and get irritated by anyone who openly talks to them or others about their mental illness. There is no where to turn for most people.

Exactly this. "Talk to someone", "help is out there", "it's ok to not be ok".

Mental illness or more particularly depression and anxiety have become topic du jour in the media in the past few years, celebrities chatting their mouths off about how depressed they are/were and the world and his sister doing Darkness into Light and flaunting it all over their social media.

And yet people are killing themselves at an alarming rate. It's an incredibly complex, societal problem that's been condensed down to a soundbyte from Bressie or Vogue Williams in VIP Magazine and a bunch of hashtags on Instagram. "Talk to someone" is the least helpful statement imaginable to someone with depression and suicidal ideation. Depression by its very definition renders the ability to get out of bed and seek help, or seek anything, an almost impossible task. It can leave the depressed person feeling like even more of a failure for not being able to help themselves.

And as already pointed out, talk to who? Anyone who's suffered long-term depression or mental illness will be familiar with the 'expiration date' that most people have when it comes to real-life talking and supporting and dealing with their loved one's illness. The support might be there for a while, but the understanding and patience will run out very quickly. I had it recently with a breakup that nearly destroyed me from the inside out. Friends will talk, family will comfort...but there's an expiration date. There's a point where your pain and suffering will become a nuisance, or unreasonable, for those around you. You can see them thinking "is she not over this yet?" So you stop talking about it.

I think in addition to the absolute shambles of a mental health service in this country, there's also a fundamental misunderstanding of depression and suicide and mental illness in general that really is unacceptable. You always hear "he was the life and soul of the party" after a suicide, as if depression should be the guy sitting in the corner with his head in his hands, despairing at the world, which is almost never the case.

Sadly I don't see any softening of these statistics any time soon tbh.

Airyfairy12

Graces7 wrote: »

So what is it you expect from mental health services ? ie issues that can be addressed by services rather than by us as family and friends?

Medical intervention, treatment by professional doctors and psychotherapists.
Affordable care, emergency services, appropriate care and facilities.

Family and friends shouldnt be left to address depression, mental illness, suicidal thinking in loved ones. If you broke your leg would you expect your friend to fix it for you or would you go to a hospital?

Graces7 wrote: »

We all get depressed; and get negative and despairing thoughts. It is part of the human condition, not mental illness.

Anyone who says 'we all get depressed' and 'its the human condition' has no idea what its like to go through depression.
Being sad and having depression, are not the same thing. It can happen to anyone, at anytime and last for days, weeks, months or years. It can be triggered by literally anything, bad diet, allergic reaction to food or medication, chemical imbalance, hormone imbalance, genetics, child abuse, relationship abuse, isolation, current circumstances, someone who has never had depression before could be overcome with stress from work, death of a loved one, divorce or any random life event.
If you had ever been in that head space you would know exactly what im talking about. You can go from being your normal self one week to literally wanting to die the following week. Depression that bad can physically hurt and make you feel totally numb at the same time. You cant see anyway out and suicide feels like the only option because youre not thinking straight. The future is a dark hole of endless suffering from the perspective of the suicidal person. And yes it can come on that quickly and its not always triggered by a mental illness.

Think of it in terms of a heart attack or stroke, youve never been ill before but things build up and you dont notice until its too late and suddenly youre very sick. Now imagine theres no adequate health care for heart attacks or stroke vicitms, you wanted to get help ages ago, you felt the signs of heart attack coming on but the health care was too expensive, there wearnt enough doctors able to treat it and youre told to go to family and friends to address your situation. Mental or physical its all the same. I dont see why theyre treated differently.

Graces7 wrote: »

The term mental health as you apply it is inaccurate and misleading? That is why I used the term 'social" rather than mental.

What has social got to do with the term 'mental health'. Its not misleading, we're talking about mental health.

wexie

Graces7 wrote: »

So what is it you expect from mental health services ? ie issues that can be addressed by services rather than by us as family and friends?

We all get depressed; and get negative and despairing thoughts. It is part of the human condition, not mental illness.

The term mental health as you apply it is inaccurate and misleading? That is why I used the term 'social" rather than mental.

That is a dangerous and ignorant post if I've ever seen one.

How do you suppose friends would deal with someone who simply can't be bothered to eat for days on end because they see no point in staying alive?

How do you suppose friends would deal with someone contemplating committing suicide because they can't bare the pain of existing?

How would you deal with that? 'Ah shure...it's not so bad...you'll be grand'

and that's 'just' depression, not to mention the myriad of other illnesses and disorders that depression is 'just' a symptom of...

dense

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I have no idea what any of this has to do with my post, other than us disagreeing about whether suicide is selfish or not. Particularly your first line, that has absolutely nothing to do with my post, made no such comment in my post.

Suicide is not selfish - I despise this comment from people which shows a complete misunderstanding of the position a suicidal person is in and a total lack of empathy.

Of course suicide is selfish, it's the ultimate selfish act, unless you somehow believe it's a selfless act with altruistic motives which benefit others?

Picking teeth out of furniture after a shotgun blast might change that perception though.
So some suicides are planned to cause maximum collateral damage to those left behind. This is real life, not some fairy land fantasy where everyone who has committed suicide was a saint.

But you're targeting the wrong person if you think stating the above proves I don't empathise with a suicidal person.

In fact, I empathise so strongly that I believe they deserve to be able to avail of dignified means of doing so if this is what they want to do.

I'm all for respecting their choice but also for permitting them to have a choice, something that the do gooders from a distance can't grasp and don't want them to have, forcing their own ideals on to others.


Pro choice is a big thing nowadays, no?

Ave Sodalis

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Think of it in terms of a heart attack or stroke, youve never been ill before but things build up and you dont notice until its too late and suddenly youre very sick. Now imagine theres no adequate health care for heart attacks or stroke vicitms, you wanted to get help ages ago, you felt the signs of heart attack coming on but the health care was too expensive, there wearnt enough doctors able to treat it and youre told to go to family and friends to address your situation. Mental or physical its all the same. I dont see why theyre treated differently.

This is actually why I dislike the term "it's okay to not be okay". It's not okay. It means something has gone wrong and you need to fix it. Imagine if you turned it around and said "it's okay to have cancer". If you hear you have cancer, or you realise you're having a heart attack, you're not going to think it's okay. It's not something you'd ever encourage the public to think is a normal thing. It implies that it's not something to be fixed and it's something we should just accept. In the same way you wouldn't just accept that you're having a heart attack, you shouldn't just accept that you have mental health issues.





Now, I could be interpreting it all wrong, but the term "it's okay to not be okay" to me says that it's not something that needs fixing.

wexie

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Now, I could be interpreting it all wrong, but the term "it's okay to not be okay" to me says that it's not something that needs fixing.

I think it's more intended as 'it's okay to admit you're not okay'

Airyfairy12

wexie wrote: »

That is a dangerous and ignorant post if I've ever seen one.

How do you suppose friends would deal with someone who simply can't be bothered to eat for days on end because they see no point in staying alive?

How do you suppose friends would deal with someone contemplating committing suicide because they can't bare the pain of existing?

How would you deal with that? 'Ah shure...it's not so bad...you'll be grand'

and that's 'just' depression, not to mention the myriad of other illnesses and disorders that depression is 'just' a symptom of...

And thats if the depressed person is 'lucky' enough to have anyone around that actually cares.

RacoonQueen

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Suicide is not selfish - I despise this comment from people which shows a complete misunderstanding of the position a suicidal person is in and a total lack of empathy.

I've been close to the edge and know a few cases who went over the edge and at the fundamental level it's the most selfish thing someone can do. Maybe they're not in their right mind, maybe they think no-one cares but at the end of the day they're doing it to end their own pain.

dense

Deleted User wrote: »

Words fail me. Christ alfúckingmighty. 11 years of age. 11.

Girl (11) posted on Instagram about her intentions to die Inquest hears

Where are children of 7 learning about suicide???


The Internet.

Psychiatrist Dr Antoinette D’Alton told the inquest that Irish children as young as seven have expressed suicidal ideation.

“Years ago this would have been unimaginable. Now, suicidal ideation is increasing in children as young as seven. There is a care pathway but it is under-resourced,” Dr D’Alton said.

Makes a good case for refusing them access to smartphones until 16.

dense

Deleted User wrote: »

It could be argued that taking his life meant he was ill.

It could also be argued his wife was ill...


But her selfishness won't be questioned in these circumstances will it?

The reasons behind a person wanting to end their life are incredibly complex and it's not possible for us to fully understand. After all we can't open up a head and look inside.
I do believe there are those whose wishes should be respected.

People who feel they have had enough and no amount of therapy will help them. They don't want help. All they want is to leave this world and their life behind. Sadly we don't know the difference between those who we need to fight to keep alive and those who need to let go. A skilled and experienced psychotherapist might be able to help here.

Loneliness is a truly terrible thing and I wonder if it's at the core of some of this. I know what it's like to stand in a crowd or walk a busy street and feel like the only person in the world. A disconnect if you will. When that disconnect is also from yourself well then that I imagine is a truly scary and lonely place.

Clinical depression is also a truly terrible thing and is most certainly not a few days of being sad. It is like a snake which winds it's way under your bones and around your veins. Everything is heavy and God you are so alone. If someone asks casually how you are you want to grab them and scream and cry and shout "I'm drowning and there is nobody just me". Thoughts become distorted, life becomes impossible until one day you decide it's just not worth it anymore.

Then I wonder about empathy and compassion for others and ourselves. I've read posts here in different threads from people who appear to be so cold and quick to judge. Maybe it's an act, afterall the internet is the greatest stage we could ever have. Anyway I think what sort of people they must be. In a world where kids are "brats" and families on social welfare are pariahs then what hope is there?

The above is an example I think of the part society plays. We need to be kinder to each other and not afraid to reach out. Be mindful of our words and how they might land. Remember that we are all in this together.

dense

dense wrote: »

It could also be argued his wife was ill...


But her selfishness won't be questioned in these circumstances will it?

It could and I don't necessarily believe leaving your husband is a selfish act.

Akrasia

One of the biggest problems with the 'seek help' paradigm, is that sometimes the 'cure' for mental illness looks worse than the disease.

I think there are two issues here, firstly is the youth suicide rate, which is shockingly high, and I think this is caused by the elevated emotional state of young people and their naturally higher risk taking profile. Young people take more risks, they are much more emotionally invested in what their immediate concern happens to be. This is just something that humans evolved with and most people mature and become more stable and more risk averse as they get older. I think these deaths are long term solutions to short term problems and every one of them is a tragedy that we should try to avoid through providing support services and education to help young people see their problems in perspective.

The second is that people with serious mental health issues are stuck between a rock and a hard place. (including some of the young people alluded to above) The treatment is often worse than the disease, unfortunately the way of managing many long term mental health conditions is through sedatives that have serious side effects that can reduce their suicidal ideation, but also sap their creativity and their ability to engage and enjoy life. A lot of people who know they are struggling emotionally and they know they aren't right, are too afraid to ask for help because they don't want to be put on medication that turns them into a 'zombie' or has severe side effects that can limit their life to one of surviving rather than living. The fear of the mental health services means lots of people are trying to self medicate and self treat their conditions and are afraid of confiding in their family or friends because they don't want to face up to the illness that they fear they have.

My father died from suicide after struggling with Bi Polar disorder for 15-20 years. He spent a lot of time in institutions, he was on a cocktail of medications, he tried alternative treatments like meditation. In the end, he decided to end his life while he was at home, and thinking clearly. I don't blame him for what he did, I don't blame the system for not being able to cure him, I don't blame anyone. He was a lovely person who always tried his best to get on and make a good life for himself and his family. Everyone who tried to help him had his best interests at heart, but ultimately, we couldn't save him and he died young.

On the day of his funeral, while we were at mass, a neighbour of ours took her own life as well. She had also been suffering from depression. It's a horrible way to live, and a horrible way to die and nobody can judge these people for the decisions they make.

One eyed Jack

dense wrote: »

You are presuming here that everyone has a supportive partner, which is fantasy.

Many are stuck in shït relationships with zero emotional support and no one knows what goes on behind closed doors.


I'm struck here by the constant wish to refuse someone the right to take their own life particularly after a referendum that was heralded as being evidence of us now maturing into a pro choice society.

Why the double standards from people?
The right to life side was basically told to mind their own business recently and to respect the choices of others, yet people seem hell bent on meddling and interfering in the lives of grown adults for whom life no longer holds any attraction.

Yes suicide is selfish, and so is projecting our neediness and emotional reaction to it, particularly this modern day phenomenon of distant-mourning random strangers we've never even met or know nothing about who have taken their own lives.

If an adult wants to die, who are we to deny them that right and choice now that we are allegedly so pro choice?

But apparently we know best for those contemplating suicide.
We don't. Sometimes we need to acknowledge this.

There's a difference between suicide, and assisted suicide.

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Medical intervention, treatment by professional doctors and psychotherapists.
Affordable care, emergency services, appropriate care and facilities.

Family and friends shouldnt be left to address depression, mental illness, suicidal thinking in loved ones. If you broke your leg would you expect your friend to fix it for you or would you go to a hospital?

Anyone who says 'we all get depressed' and 'its the human condition' has no idea what its like to go through depression.

Being sad and having depression, are not the same thing. It can happen to anyone, at anytime and last for days, weeks, months or years. It can be triggered by literally anything, bad diet, allergic reaction to food or medication, chemical imbalance, hormone imbalance, genetics, child abuse, relationship abuse, isolation, current circumstances, someone who has never had depression before could be overcome with stress from work, death of a loved one, divorce or any random life event.
If you had ever been in that head space you would know exactly what im talking about. You can go from being your normal self one week to literally wanting to die the following week. Depression that bad can physically hurt and make you feel totally numb at the same time. You cant see anyway out and suicide feels like the only option because youre not thinking straight. The future is a dark hole of endless suffering from the perspective of the suicidal person. And yes it can come on that quickly and its not always triggered by a mental illness.

Think of it in terms of a heart attack or stroke, youve never been ill before but things build up and you dont notice until its too late and suddenly youre very sick. Now imagine theres no adequate health care for heart attacks or stroke vicitms, you wanted to get help ages ago, you felt the signs of heart attack coming on but the health care was too expensive, there wearnt enough doctors able to treat it and youre told to go to family and friends to address your situation. Mental or physical its all the same. I dont see why theyre treated differently.

I wouldn't say that. They may have a different perspective than yours is all.

What has social got to do with the term 'mental health'. Its not misleading, we're talking about mental health.

It has everything to do with mental health and maintaining good mental health. There are a couple of different psychological models which offer different approaches in the diagnosis, treatment and management of mental health. The medical model is only one. Among many others there is indeed the social model, the holistic model, the biopsychosocial model and the recovery model. All these different models are used in modern psychology with varying degrees of success, depending upon the context of each individual person.

dense wrote: »

Where are children of 7 learning about suicide???

The Internet.

Makes a good case for refusing them access to smartphones until 16.

Children experienced suicidal thoughts and engaged in self-harming behaviours long before the Internet ever existed. Smartphones were never the problem and aren't the problem. The problem was that as children they often don't have either the language or the means to be able to articulate themselves properly and even explain to themselves what these thoughts are that they feel and where they come from and why they feel them.

At 41 I still can't explain to you what it was like to have those thoughts as a four year old child. It still feels like they're just... there! I've learned to cope with them, I'm just not able to explain them is all, so I don't talk about it, because I don't want to upset or anger anyone here who may have a different perspective on their experiences. I already see how some people claim other people have no understanding of the issues simply because they have a different perspective.

Pauliedragon

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

This is actually why I dislike the term "it's okay to not be okay". It's not okay. It means something has gone wrong and you need to fix it. Imagine if you turned it around and said "it's okay to have cancer". If you hear you have cancer, or you realise you're having a heart attack, you're not going to think it's okay. It's not something you'd ever encourage the public to think is a normal thing. It implies that it's not something to be fixed and it's something we should just accept. In the same way you wouldn't just accept that you're having a heart attack, you shouldn't just accept that you have mental health issues.





Now, I could be interpreting it all wrong, but the term "it's okay to not be okay" to me says that it's not something that needs fixing.

I hear what you're saying Ave but I think what that saying means it's ok to admit you're not ok in that some people think they are someway damaged beyond repair and speak to nobody and that you're not a leper for not not feeling "okay" all the time. One area I'd like to see investigated is how do you react as a friend/ family member if someone close to you is not okay. One of my best friends a few years ago went through a bad break up. He had 2 young kids (7 and 2). She just up and left and said the relationship is over . They share the kids no problems there but financially he was struggling badly as he had to rent a place by himself pay his share for 2 kids and he was so genuinely gutted that the love of his life just out of the blue walked out. I'm his closest friend and he came to me for guidence which I was happy to be there anytime but the depression got worse and worse. It started affecting his work and I was genuinely worried he might do something to himself. Ive gone on longer than I thought so in a nutshell I didn't know how to talk to him he kept asking me "why did she leave me" and I just didn't know how to answer. Luckily nothing happened and he's ok now but it always made me wonder am I equipped to deal with this? Will I say the wrong thing and push him over the edge? Maybe governments or whoever can set up some system where friends/family of people in trouble can access info on how to help them if they wont get proffessional help themselves.

Perhaps something rational and usually designed for self-advancement and, ironically, survival like selfishness isn't the best prism within which to view suicide? Aside from being an egregious distortion of the complex reality behind why somebody might take their life, it seems like an unnecessarily mean way to look at people for whom the world has become so dark that they take their own lives.

Often the person who takes their own life could view their death as easing the burden on people around them. Self-hatred is clearly very strong. Moreover, by understanding despair, hopelessness and being overwhelmed by the darkness of life we would have a better understanding of why people might choose to take their own lives. Some people have a hopelessness and a darkness about the future which most of us cannot relate to despite our best intentions, and many of us would fear to explore (Ernest Becker's Pulitzer Prize-winning The Denial of Death is possibly the most extraordinarily insightful book on the topic of death that I've ever read). That despair, that dark cloud, is very real, though.

I don't think most people with a bit of knowledge, never mind empathy, would reduce the decision making of people in that unenviable place to something as simplistic as "selfishness".

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Perhaps something rational and usually designed for self-advancement and, ironically, survival like selfishness isn't the best prism within which to view suicide? Aside from being an egregious distortion of the complex reality behind why somebody might take their life, it seems like an unnecessarily mean way to look at people for whom the world has become so dark that they take their own lives.

Often the person who takes their own life could view their death as easing the burden on people around them. Self-hatred is clearly very strong. Moreover, by understanding despair, hopelessness and being overwhelmed by the darkness of life we would have a better understanding of why people might choose to take their own lives. Some people have a hopelessness and a darkness about the future which most of us cannot relate to despite our best intentions, and many of us would fear to explore (Ernest Becker's Pulitzer Prize-winning The Denial of Death is possibly the most extraordinarily insightful book on the topic of death that I've ever read). That despair, that dark cloud, is very real, though.

I don't think most people with a bit of knowledge, never mind empathy, would reduce the decision making of people in that unenviable place to something as simplistic as "selfishness".

It's difficult to explain it, but the concept of viewing suicide as a selfish act can act as a preventative strategy, depending entirely upon the individuals perspective and circumstances. There's a few good reads on the theory I've read before as a preventative strategy, but here's a quick article that offers some insight into the idea -

Is suicide selfish?

Of course as I said, it depends entirely upon the individuals own thought processes and other factors which may influence their thinking, like the way the "It's ok not to be ok" message is often misconstrued by virtue of the fact that one of it's criticisms is that it's too simplistic. It's intent is to reduce the perceived stigma around mental health, and in the opposite way, perceiving suicide as a selfish act is to increase the stigma attached to suicide in order to prevent people from considering taking their own lives. It's equally as simplistic, but it's undeniably effective.

New Home

And just like with cancer or with horrific injuries, some people recover, some people will die, and some people will carry the horrific effects of their condition along with them all of their lives. But this doesn't mean that nothing should be done to help them, regardless of the outcome.

Ave Sodalis

wexie wrote: »

I think it's more intended as 'it's okay to admit you're not okay'

Pauliedragon wrote: »

I hear what you're saying Ave but I think what that saying means it's ok to admit you're not ok in that some people think they are someway damaged beyond repair and speak to nobody and that you're not a leper for not not feeling "okay" all the time.

Perhaps, but it's just as catchy to phrase it "It's okay to say you're not okay", rather than "It's okay to not be okay", which changes the meaning.

GoneHome

Graces7 wrote: »

We all get depressed; and get negative and despairing thoughts. It is part of the human condition, not mental illness

This is my thought also, I think alot of it is people with too much time on their hands, I'm so busy during the week with work that I don't have time to think about getting "depressed", just get out and do a days work, get home in the evening only fit for a good nights sleep, I'm in my 40s now and this "metal health" thing is definitely a new concept

GoneHome

SimonTemplar wrote: »

But that's like saying people who get cancer have too much time on their hands.

Believe me it's not, having cancer is an actual physical condition that nobody can do anything about, I've had several friends and family effected, this new "mental health" condition from a few examples I've come across is no more than an easy excuse to get the Disability Allowance

GoneHome

GoneHome wrote: »

This is my thought also, I think alot of it is people with too much time on their hands, I'm so busy during the week with work that I don't have time to think about getting "depressed", just get out and do a days work, get home in the evening only fit for a good nights sleep, I'm in my 40s now and this "metal health" thing is definitely a new concept

Ah now. Clinical depression can come about due to all sorts of reasons. Your post makes it seem like a person can just say "today I'm going to be busy and not want to die". So very disrespectful to put such pain down to "too much time on their hands".

Ave Sodalis

GoneHome wrote: »

Believe me it's not, having cancer is an actual physical condition that nobody can do anything about, I've had several friends and family effected, this new "mental health" condition from a few examples I've come across is no more than an easy excuse to get the Disability Allowance

Ah yes, I'm sure that guy in Scotland there last night who threw himself in front of the train was thinking about the allowance he'd be entitled to... :rolleyes:

Tigerbaby

GoneHome wrote: »

Believe me it's not, having cancer is an actual physical condition that nobody can do anything about, I've had several friends and family effected, this new "mental health" condition from a few examples I've come across is no more than an easy excuse to get the Disability Allowance

talk to me when you've walked a mile, or an hour or a day, in my shoes.

GoneHome

SimonTemplar wrote: »

And from the way you ended your post, I'm not particularly interested in continuing this debate with you.

Ok I'm only going from experience last Friday night, my husband is working in a company crying out for guys in construction, asked this fella that we know from the local, knowing that he was out of work and thinking that he'd be glad to get "the start", but no he wouldn't take the job cause he was getting certs from the GP for "depression" so was getting the Disability Allowance plus rent allowance and medical card so he wasn't giving that up, ya he was very "depressed" in the pub Friday night on his 5th pint :rolleyes:

7 Seconds...

Suicide has been happening as long as humans have been on the earth and has been happening for decades in Ireland, but like alot of things in this country it was covered up and the death recorded as something else to save face for the families involved.

For anyone who think depression, mental health and suicide are something new and can be marely gotten over or shaken off with a slap on the back from family or friends, as somone who has suffer from aniexty & depression for over 10 years I really wished you right, but sadly I don't think you can truely understand the darkness a person feels when they are suffering from depression, suicide and mental issues.

When I was suicidal my life was so bad I really thought my family would have been better off without me, I wasn't just thinkin of myself, my thinking was so warped that I thought taking myself out of the picture I would also made things better for everyone around me. I thankfully have lived to tell the tale, but I would never judge someone for taking their own life as I still remember the amazing feeling of relieve that everything would be over when I ended it, I often wish I could have bottled that feeling.

Anyway, as the saying goes Never judge a person, till you've walked a mile in their shoes, then your a mile away and you have their shoes.

For anyone feeling suicidal tonight or any night, I hope you can come through it like I have and hopefully see that just because things are bad now, they won't always be. Don't be afraid to ask for help and or be afraid of what other might think or say, help is out there and remember.

Somewhere, there’s someone who dreams of your smile,
And finds in your presence that life is worth while,
So when you are lonely, remember it’s true:
Somebody, somewhere is thinking of you.

One eyed Jack

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Perhaps, but it's just as catchy to phrase it "It's okay to say you're not okay", rather than "It's okay to not be okay", which changes the meaning.

I think the intent of it is to say to people that experiencing difficulties with their mental health is not something they should be ashamed of, as one of the reasons people don't talk about having difficulties with their mental health is because they feel it's something to be ashamed of.

It's also true of course to say that not everyone feels this way and some people find it very easy to talk about their mental health difficulties, but one of the things I've often experienced is people who assume that other people are selfish for not wanting to listen to that person talk about their mental health. The person doesn't consider that that person may be experiencing difficulties with their own mental health and they're trying to protect themselves.

As an example I suppose, someone I know for many years who has been on medication recently decided that they would come off their medication, and shortly afterwards they were involuntarily sectioned. I got a call one evening asking would I go out and visit them. I said no, because I have to protect my own mental health.

They could feel I'm being selfish and I'm unwilling to listen to them and all the rest of it, and they're right, I am being selfish, but as bad as I feel for them, my priority has to be my own mental health over theirs. I think sometimes people experiencing difficulties with their mental health can think everything must be hunky dory for other people and those other people don't understand what it's like to experience ill mental health, but often it's precisely because they do understand what it's like to experience ill mental health that they don't want to talk about it.

New Home wrote: »

And just like with cancer or with horrific injuries, some people recover, some people will die, and some people will carry the horrific effects of their condition along with them all of their lives. But this doesn't mean that nothing should be done to help them, regardless of the outcome.

I don't think conflating physical conditions with mental conditions as though they should be treated the same is ever particularly useful. The thing is with mental conditions that if ill mental health and suicide ever become socially acceptable, then funding for mental health services and suicide prevention becomes less of a priority in terms of being provided for by society.

New Home

GoneHome wrote: »

Ok I'm only going from experience last Friday night, my husband is working in a company crying out for guys in construction, asked this fella that we know from the local, knowing that he was out of work and thinking that he'd be glad to get "the start", but no he wouldn't take the job cause he was getting certs from the GP for "depression" so was getting the Disability Allowance plus rent allowance and medical card so he wasn't giving that up, ya he was very "depressed" in the pub Friday night on his 5th pint :rolleyes:

And there are people all over the world on blindness benefits/allowances who are scamming social welfare because they drive taxis - does that mean that blindness doesn't exist?

GoneHome

GoneHome wrote: »

Ok I'm only going from experience last Friday night, my husband is working in a company crying out for guys in construction, asked this fella that we know from the local, knowing that he was out of work and thinking that he'd be glad to get "the start", but no he wouldn't take the job cause he was getting certs from the GP for "depression" so was getting the Disability Allowance plus rent allowance and medical card so he wasn't giving that up, ya he was very "depressed" in the pub Friday night on his 5th pint :rolleyes:

Maybe he drinks to numb the pain of living? In other words you don't know what is going on in someones life.

New Home

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't think conflating physical conditions with mental conditions as though they should be treated the same is ever particularly useful. The thing is with mental conditions that if ill mental health and suicide ever become socially acceptable, then funding for mental health services and suicide prevention becomes less of a priority in terms of being provided for by society.

I'm only saying that it's an illness and it shouldn't be dismissed or underestimated just because it's not always obviously visible. I'm probably not phrasing this as clearly as I'd hope, but being ill is not "normal", "normal" should mean being healthy (even though some people have to accept their illness as their new "normal-for-them" state because they can't get better). To me, depression being "socially acceptable" should only mean that there's no stigma attached to being ill (just like with cancer), not that the illness is irrelevant or unimportant. Cancer is socially acceptable, funding hasn't decreased because of it.

GoneHome

New Home wrote: »

And there are people all over the world on blindness benefits/allowances who are scamming social welfare because they drive taxis - does that mean that blindness doesn't exist?

What does that even mean, my point is there are a lot of "depressed" people in this country and us tax payers are paying for them

New Home

What's fakers got to do with depression and suicide?

gctest50

GoneHome wrote: »

Ok I'm only going from experience last Friday night, my husband is working in a company crying out for guys in construction, asked this fella that we know from the local, knowing that he was out of work and thinking that he'd be glad to get "the start", but no he wouldn't take the job cause he was getting certs from the GP for "depression" so was getting the Disability Allowance plus rent allowance and medical card so he wasn't giving that up, ya he was very "depressed" in the pub Friday night on his 5th pint :rolleyes:

Maybe say..... his sisters kid is doing the Leaving Cert and he's just passing time until that is over to kill himself

lukesmom

Trust me depression is nothing like sadness. From my own personal experience depression is:

Its going to bed at night hoping and praying to never wake up...
Its being stuck in a cycle of doom that feels impossible to escape from...
Its feeling completely worthless
Its tears and numbness and an everlasting grey cloud above
And to top it all of the guilt. Guilty for feeling this way.
Guilty for the loved ones who are watching you suffer
Guilty for taking up peoples time

You feel like a freak of nature.
Why am i still feeling this way?
Why is everybody else happy?
Why cant I go out and socialise like a normal person?
What is wrong with me?
Why is it taking so long?
These questions coupled with the guilt swirl around in your head on loop. It is neverending.
So no, suicide is not selfish. It just means you felt you couldn't go on and wait longer for a bit of light to appear.

And it IS okay not to be okay. We are not freaks. There is nothing wrong with us that cannot be helped with some therapy and kindness.

GoneHome

gctest50 wrote: »

Maybe say..... his sisters kid is doing the Leaving Cert and he's just passing time until that is over to kill himself

What.......... no this guy is just a lazy fcuker out for everything he can get

GoneHome

I'm sorry but it just annoys me that these fcukers can get away with being "depressed" and "suicidal" and get every thing going while the rest of us are breaking our back working to pay our bills

freshpopcorn

Mod NoteTry and keep this thread on topic and not derail it into one about social welfare!

KKkitty

Of all the people that I knew that ended their own lives the vast majority were male. Is it the indoctrination over the years that boys don't cry, whatever way they're feeling to keep it inside or is it something else entirely? There needs to be 24/7 mental health services in Ireland. Just because it's the weekend or after 5 in the evening does it mean your mental health issues decide to take a break? No it doesn't.

One eyed Jack

New Home wrote: »

I'm only saying that it's an illness and it shouldn't be dismissed or underestimated just because it's not always obviously visible. I'm probably not phrasing this as clearly as I'd hope, but being ill is not "normal", "normal" should mean being healthy (even though some people have to accept their illness as their new "normal-for-them" state because they can't get better). To me, depression being "socially acceptable" should only mean that there's no stigma attached to being ill (just like with cancer), not that the illness is irrelevant or unimportant. Cancer is socially acceptable, funding hasn't decreased because of it.

If it were socially acceptable to have cancer, then we wouldn't be funding research to try and prevent people from developing cancer in the first place. It simply wouldn't be a priority.

I do get where you're coming from and why you're having difficulty phrasing it, because how do you destigmatise something and still at the same time claim it's an issue that needs to be addressed? If ill mental health and suicide were seen as normal, then what's the issue that needs to be addressed?

Ave Sodalis

One eyed Jack wrote:

I do get where you're coming from and why you're having difficulty phrasing it, because how do you destigmatise something and still at the same time claim it's an issue that needs to be addressed? If ill mental health and suicide were seen as normal, then what's the issue that needs to be addressed?

The thing that makes suicide different from just about everything else is that the more common place it is or the more normal it is, the higher the risk is. Patterns happen anywhere there is a suicide. It's very rare only one happens in a group of people. There's even high risk towns scattered around Ireland (particularly in the North) where suicide is commonplace, and there isn't the facilities to deal with it.

GoneHome

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If it were socially acceptable to have cancer, then we wouldn't be funding research to try and prevent people from developing cancer in the first place. It simply wouldn't be a priority.

I If ill mental health and suicide were seen as normal, then what's the issue that needs to be addressed?

But that's what it boils down to, it's not really a normal condition, compared to say MND or MS or Cancer, I'd a friend died of MND a couple of years back and jesus i wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy, where as "depression" can be treated easily

Ave Sodalis

GoneHome wrote:

But that's what it boils down to, it's not really a normal condition, compared to say MND or MS or Cancer, I'd a friend died of MND a couple of years back and jesus i wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy, where as "depression" can be treated easily

Why do you have depression in inverted commas? Due to a guy you barely know down in the pub? Really?

No, depression isn't always so easily treated. I managed to get myself out of depression years ago without help but it was a tough thing to do. Medication doesn't always work and one of the side effects of anti-depressants is an increased risk of suicide.

Can I come too...

Can I come too... wrote: »

Suicide has been happening as long as humans have been on the earth and has been happening for decades in Ireland, but like alot of things in this country it was covered up and the death recorded as something else to save face for the families involved.

For anyone who think depression, mental health and suicide are something new and can be marely gotten over or shaken off with a slap on the back from family or friends, as somone who has suffer from aniexty & depression for over 10 years I really wished you right, but sadly I don't think you can truely understand the darkness a person feels when they are suffering from depression, suicide and mental issues.

When I was suicidal my life was so bad I really thought my family would have been better off without me, I wasn't just thinkin of myself, my thinking was so warped that I thought taking myself out of the picture I would also made things better for everyone around me. I thankfully have lived to tell the tale, but I would never judge someone for taking their own life as I still remember the amazing feeling of relieve that everything would be over when I ended it, I often wish I could have bottled that feeling.

Anyway, as the saying goes Never judge a person, till you've walked a mile in their shoes, then your a mile away and you have their shoes.

For anyone feeling suicidal tonight or any night, I hope you can come through it like I have and hopefully see that just because things are bad now, they won't always be. Don't be afraid to ask for help and or be afraid of what other might think or say, help is out there and remember.

Somewhere, there’s someone who dreams of your smile,
And finds in your presence that life is worth while,
So when you are lonely, remember it’s true:
Somebody, somewhere is thinking of you.

Sorry but that kind of thing gets on my nerves. Other than my immediate family I know there are very few who care about me and those that do are not exactly great friends. If my parents weren't around I don't know if I'd be able to hang on. People who don't know what's going on in someone's life shouldn't automatically comment. We all know (now) that the "Jaysus he had a wife and kids" thing isn't "relevant" as such. I can only use myself as an example but I know my life better than people spouting platitudes. When I do state certain things I get told that I'm wrong despite the experience and evidence.