Suicide

GoneHome

GoneHome wrote: »

But that's what it boils down to, it's not really a normal condition, compared to say MND or MS or Cancer, I'd a friend died of MND a couple of years back and jesus i wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy, where as "depression" can be treated easily

Are the inverted commas there to differentiate between actual depression and someone taking the mick?

GoneHome

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Why do you have depression in inverted commas?

Because in the case of this guy he was no more depressed than my cat, he was riding the Social Welfare system as are many others in this country, being "depressed" is the new "bad back" in this country

Ave Sodalis

GoneHome wrote:

Because in the case of this guy he was no more depressed than my cat, he was riding the Social Welfare system as are many others in this country, being "depressed" is the new "bad back" in this country

You don't know the guy. You don't know whether or not he has depression. What makes you so qualified to say? My own family members don't know the state of my mental health and one of them even works in the field. When I had depression years ago, nobody knew. Not a single sole to this day knows except my now partner.

New Home

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If it were socially acceptable to have cancer, then we wouldn't be funding research to try and prevent people from developing cancer in the first place. It simply wouldn't be a priority.

I do get where you're coming from and why you're having difficulty phrasing it, because how do you destigmatise something and still at the same time claim it's an issue that needs to be addressed? If ill mental health and suicide were seen as normal, then what's the issue that needs to be addressed?

I don't think we mean "socially acceptable" in the same way. I mean that a person shouldn't be made feel ashamed about having cancer any more than a depressed person should. I definitely do not mean that "socially acceptable" equals "normal state of being", and therefore not worth addressing because "sure, everyone's got it anyway".

EDIT: Otherwise it'd be like saying it's not worth addressing a pandemic because "sure, everyone's got it anyway".

GoneHome

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

You don't know the guy. You don't know whether or not he has depression.

So why did he tell my husband that he wouldn't take the job off him because he'd be better off on the Disability Allowance, as he drank down his fifth pint, and I wrecked tired after a hard week at work

One eyed Jack

GoneHome wrote: »

But that's what it boils down to, it's not really a normal condition, compared to say MND or MS or Cancer, I'd a friend died of MND a couple of years back and jesus i wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy, where as "depression" can be treated easily

MND, MS and cancer aren't normal conditions either? My point was that physical and mental conditions simply can't be compared, it's reductive to do so. I also don't conflate clinical depression with suicide, because again to do so is simply reductive and ignores the many complexities of both clinical depression and suicide.

I think it's also far too simplistic to say that clinical depression can be easily treated, how clinical depression is treated depends upon a number of different factors specifically relating to each and every individual case. That's why I don't like the idea of anyone telling other people they don't know what clinical depression is like. Peoples experiences of clinical depression vary considerably from one person to another. If we were to take the person from your earlier example, you'll surely be aware of the fact that people can put on a front that they present to the world, because for example they may think it's more socially acceptable to claim they're having a great life than admit they are struggling. I'm not saying that necessarily is the case in the case of your friend, I'm saying that it could be, and perhaps because they're aware of your feelings on the subject, they may feel it's best they say nothing.

One eyed Jack

GoneHome wrote: »

So why did he tell my husband that he wouldn't take the job off him because he'd be better off on the Disability Allowance, as he drank down his fifth pint, and I wrecked tired after a hard week at work

Possibly because if he took the job, it would very quickly become apparent that something wasn't right.

GoneHome

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Possibly because if he took the job, it would very quickly become apparent that something wasn't right.

Ya something wasn't right when he was able to drink a few pints on Friday evening, just don't be so naive he was riding the system with his "depression" and we the tax payers are the fools paying for it

jigglypuffstuff

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Medical intervention, treatment by professional doctors and psychotherapists.
Affordable care, emergency services, appropriate care and facilities.

Family and friends shouldnt be left to address depression, mental illness, suicidal thinking in loved ones. If you broke your leg would you expect your friend to fix it for you or would you go to a hospital?



Anyone who says 'we all get depressed' and 'its the human condition' has no idea what its like to go through depression.
Being sad and having depression, are not the same thing. It can happen to anyone, at anytime and last for days, weeks, months or years. It can be triggered by literally anything, bad diet, allergic reaction to food or medication, chemical imbalance, hormone imbalance, genetics, child abuse, relationship abuse, isolation, current circumstances, someone who has never had depression before could be overcome with stress from work, death of a loved one, divorce or any random life event.
If you had ever been in that head space you would know exactly what im talking about. You can go from being your normal self one week to literally wanting to die the following week. Depression that bad can physically hurt and make you feel totally numb at the same time. You cant see anyway out and suicide feels like the only option because youre not thinking straight. The future is a dark hole of endless suffering from the perspective of the suicidal person. And yes it can come on that quickly and its not always triggered by a mental illness.

Think of it in terms of a heart attack or stroke, youve never been ill before but things build up and you dont notice until its too late and suddenly youre very sick. Now imagine theres no adequate health care for heart attacks or stroke vicitms, you wanted to get help ages ago, you felt the signs of heart attack coming on but the health care was too expensive, there wearnt enough doctors able to treat it and youre told to go to family and friends to address your situation. Mental or physical its all the same. I dont see why theyre treated differently.



What has social got to do with the term 'mental health'. Its not misleading, we're talking about mental health.

That post is filled with inaccuracies and lacks objectivity

#1 majority of people DO deal with depression at some point. There's varying levels and situational/clinical etc....mild/moderate/severe...so the phrase we all get depressed is totally accurate by all accounts.

2# many professional doctors are poorly informed regards mental health so they are not simply the answer. Integration of coping skills such as CBT based on Neuroscience (brain plasticity) and whatnot into mainstream Education would help immensely by teaching proactive skills for all those who clog the system with non crisis level issues.

Yes the system is broken....but you need to consider that what you've listed is far from immediately implementable... rationally speaking while improving the system incrementally we should be teaching people to cope better....and shift from medication for those who really don't need it ( the bias towards it is ridiculous in Ireland). Everyone's happy to complain about the system (including me) but few ever suggest reasonable and rational solutions


#3 Biopsychosocial model of healthcare.. Google it... Psychological and social factors are tightly coupled...so social has everything you do mental health...did you view them as separate?

KKkitty

GoneHome wrote: »

Because in the case of this guy he was no more depressed than my cat, he was riding the Social Welfare system as are many others in this country, being "depressed" is the new "bad back" in this country

I'm going to be a bit harsh with you but I don't care. You have no idea what's actually going on in someone's head. This "friend" and the reason for the inverted commas is that you seem very judgmental in fairness. Be there for your friend please. Would you like him to be around in years to come or to be another statistic.

gctest50

GoneHome wrote: »

So why did he tell my husband that he wouldn't take the job off him..

I'll spell it out - using teh science :

Occams razor - he doesn't want anything to do with the pair of ye

GoneHome wrote: »

and I wrecked tired after a hard week at work

GoneHome

KKkitty wrote: »

I'm going to be a bit harsh with you but I don't care. You have no idea what's actually going on in someone's head. This "friend" and the reason for the inverted commas is that you seem very judgmental in fairness. Be there for your friend please. Would you like him to be around in years to come or to be another statistic.

As I've said already this guy is riding the system, he is using the "depression" tag to get his Disability Allowance, Rent Allowance and Medical Card, he admitted such to us when my husband offered him the job, he said he would have too much to loose if he took the job (the job was paying €480 per week)

One eyed Jack

GoneHome wrote: »

Ya something wasn't right when he was able to drink a few pints on Friday evening, just don't be so naive he was riding the system with his "depression" and we the tax payers are the fools paying for it

Right, so if he doesn't have depression then, what has your example got to do with this thread? I'm not trying to be smart here but if you think he doesn't have depression and the real issue is that he doesn't want to lose his social welfare benefits, then isn't that an issue for an entirely different thread.

GoneHome

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Right, so if he doesn't have depression then, what has your example got to do with this thread? I'm not trying to be smart here but if you think he doesn't have depression and the real issue is that he doesn't want to lose his social welfare benefits, then isn't that an issue for an entirely different thread.

The whole point of my thread is that there are many many "depressed" people in this country and it is us tax payers that are paying for them, the mental health card is an easy one to display emm.......

lukesmom

Are you for real? Easy to treat....if only. 4 months it took for me to begin to feel better. Psych ward instead of suicide for me. Multiple painstaking month long trials of anti depressants only to be told i was 'treatment resistant'. My family at home including new baby that I missed out on. While hoping and praying something would work and lift me out of the tunnel of hell I resided in. So please dont give us that bullsh!t of it being easily treated and dont condescend us with your stupid inverted commas. If and when you ever get depression you will eat your uneducated cruel words. Its not always about having too much time on your hands. It can be triggered by many life events and factors.
Oh and that guy in the pub didnt want to work for your husband. So what! Go back to your rose tinted life for now. Thing can change very quickly you'd be wise to remember that.

WinnyThePoo

.you have issue with social welfare fraud. Not depression.

GoneHome

lukesmom wrote: »

Are you for real? Easy to treat....if only. 4 months it took for me to begin to feel better. Psych ward instead of suicide for me. Multiple painstaking month long trials of anti depressants only to be told i was 'treatment resistant'. My family at home including new baby that I missed out on. While hoping and praying something would work and lift me out of the tunnel of hell I resided in. So please dont give us that bullsh!t of it being easily treated and dont condescend us with your stupid inverted commas. If and when you ever get depression you will eat your uneducated cruel words. Its not always about having too much time on your hands. It can be triggered by many life events and factors.
Oh and that guy in the pub didnt want to work for your husband. So what! Go back to your rose tinted life for now. Thing can change very quickly you'd be wise to remember that.

I must have touched a nerve with you to be so angry, serious anger going on there, anyway getting back on topic, I've only quoted my experience, take it as it is

New Home

Except that it's not your experience, it's your view on someone else's alleged or actual depression.

WinnyThePoo

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Your pathetic.

This was directed at you gone home.

GoneHome

New Home wrote: »

Except that it's not your experience, it's your view on someone else's alleged or actual depression.

To reiterate, it was what I was told, he was using the "depressed" card to get his entitlements as are many many more in this country, it annoys me because we work so hard and are taxed to the hilt for it just to go on wasters like him and many more like him that won't get off their h%le to do a days work because they're "depressed"

One eyed Jack

GoneHome wrote: »

The whole point of my thread is that there are many many "depressed" people in this country and it is us tax payers that are paying for them, the mental health card is an easy one to display emm.......

Your issue then is with people you feel are committing welfare fraud, not people who are experiencing ill mental health.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

A grandparent of mine committed suicide back in the 80s when it really was taboo. Like that, apparently never gave any indication they were depressed or even unhappy. The note they left was brief and didn’t give any indication as to why, just left the location in the note. My parent never really came to terms with it because they couldn’t understand why it had happened, no closure or answers

GoneHome

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Your issue then is with people you feel are committing welfare fraud, not people who are experiencing ill mental health.

Eye we've come full circle Jack, but saying that there are many people using the mental health/depression excuse to get Disability Allowance, it's widly known

KKkitty

GoneHome wrote: »

To reiterate, it was what I was told, he was using the "depressed" card to get his entitlements as are many many more in this country, it annoys me because we work so hard and are taxed to the hilt for it just to go on wasters like him and many more like him that won't get off their h%le to do a days work because they're "depressed"

You were told so you believe everything that comes from everyone but the "horse's mouth". Sorry not sorry but you are part of the problem. You don't want to listen to others misfortunes, making out like they're trivial. Don't be that person that stands by and does nothing. Be there for the person that calls you a friend.

wonski

I worked with a guy whose both parents committed suicide in a space of two years. He seemed very relaxed talking about this even though he found them first on both occasions...

His older sister helped him a lot, very close to this day.

I have found a close family member attempting it, never could talk about it as freely as this guy.

Never could understand how desperate and depressed you can get to attempt it, never mind doing it.

GoneHome

KKkitty wrote: »

You don't want to listen to others misfortunes

Christ if you only knew what my family has been through, that's why this whole "mental health" thing annoys me, omg they really don't know what it's like to have a real life defining illness

One eyed Jack

GoneHome wrote: »

Eye we've come full circle Jack, but saying that there are many people using the mental health/depression excuse to get Disability Allowance, it's widly known

I won't say it's the first I've heard of it, because I remember David McWilliams wrote some cobbled bollocks on the issue a few years back (can't find it now) where he tried to suggest that the rising number of people claiming disability for clinical depression were as you suggest likely faking it to claim benefits under false pretences.

David McWilliams as it turns out is about as good a clinical psychologist as he is an economist (that is to say - not particularly good at either), and so I would tend to take much of this "common knowledge" stuff with a pinch of salt. It's not widely known at all. It's widely propagated through sheer ignorance and idle gossip.

I've seen it in my own family with family members claiming they're better off not working and I'm a fool for working to pay their lifestyle and all the rest of it, but frankly, it just comes across as them sounding desperate to try and convince themselves that they're not a complete failure in life. I neither have the time nor the interest to spend listening to them, let alone sit and count how many pints they have down the pub. It's a miserable existence and I wouldn't deny them whatever small bit of pleasure they derive from their behaviour that makes their existence even just that little bit more bearable for them.

darced

This post has been deleted.

GoneHome

Well within my community it's widly known,/done, I've a sister in law got a lovely little bungalow from the council by playing the "mental health" card, she's only in her 20s and everything paid for her-she gets €198 per week on the Disability, free house from the Council, Medical Card, free fuel for the Winter, better off than myself breaking my a%% working for a living

One eyed Jack

GoneHome wrote: »

Well within my community it's widly known,/done, I've a sister in law got a lovely little bungalow from the council by playing the "mental health" card, she's only in her 20s and everything paid for her-she gets €198 per week on the Disability, free house from the Council, Medical Card, free fuel for the Winter, better off than myself breaking my a%% working for a living

If you're breaking your arse working for a living, perhaps you should concern yourself more with taking care of your own mental health than being concerned with what other people are doing. That kind of obsessing over what others are doing just isn't healthy.

lukesmom

GoneHome wrote:

I must have touched a nerve with you to be so angry, serious anger going on there, anyway getting back on topic, I've only quoted my experience, take it as it is

No you havent touched a nerve. I just think depression is one of those conditions that is not so easily recognisable. For all you know that man could be using drink as a coping mechanism.

Graces7

GoneHome wrote: »

Well within my community it's widly known,/done, I've a sister in law got a lovely little bungalow from the council by playing the "mental health" card, she's only in her 20s and everything paid for her-she gets €198 per week on the Disability, free house from the Council, Medical Card, free fuel for the Winter, better off than myself breaking my a%% working for a living

Excuse me but please get your facts straight?

No free house

Solid Fuel allowance is E22.50 a week in winter. E15 a 20 k bag of coal.

If the lady has satisfied the drs of her disability then that is fair and fine, and by the way that is not easily done. I heaved a great sigh of relief when I reached retirement age as no more medicals etc. They reached out from the Uk with alarming and perfectly justified and correct frequency!

Be glad you can work!

Kimbot

GoneHome wrote: »

Because in the case of this guy he was no more depressed than my cat, he was riding the Social Welfare system as are many others in this country, being "depressed" is the new "bad back" in this country

GoneHome wrote: »

Ya something wasn't right when he was able to drink a few pints on Friday evening, just don't be so naive he was riding the system with his "depression" and we the tax payers are the fools paying for it

GoneHome wrote: »

As I've said already this guy is riding the system, he is using the "depression" tag to get his Disability Allowance, Rent Allowance and Medical Card, he admitted such to us when my husband offered him the job, he said he would have too much to loose if he took the job (the job was paying €480 per week)

GoneHome wrote: »

The whole point of my thread is that there are many many "depressed" people in this country and it is us tax payers that are paying for them, the mental health card is an easy one to display emm.......

GoneHome wrote: »

To reiterate, it was what I was told, he was using the "depressed" card to get his entitlements as are many many more in this country, it annoys me because we work so hard and are taxed to the hilt for it just to go on wasters like him and many more like him that won't get off their h%le to do a days work because they're "depressed"

GoneHome wrote: »

Eye we've come full circle Jack, but saying that there are many people using the mental health/depression excuse to get Disability Allowance, it's widly known

GoneHome wrote: »

Well within my community it's widly known,/done, I've a sister in law got a lovely little bungalow from the council by playing the "mental health" card, she's only in her 20s and everything paid for her-she gets €198 per week on the Disability, free house from the Council, Medical Card, free fuel for the Winter, better off than myself breaking my a%% working for a living

MOD GoneHome, don't post in this thread again, in spite of the mod warning last night you decided to keep it up with the social welfare stuff which is not what the thread is about.

The Bishop Basher

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

This is actually why I dislike the term "it's okay to not be okay". It's not okay. It means something has gone wrong and you need to fix it.

I agree. It's about as meaningful as "turn that frown upside down".

I know it's catchy and i realise it's meant to mean something entirely different from what it says but it's not ok to not be ok. It's just not.

wexie

Rennaws wrote: »

I agree. It's about as meaningful as "turn that frown upside down".

I know it's catchy and i realise it's meant to mean something entirely different from what it says but it's not ok to not be ok. It's just not.

no

Sucks ass is what it does

Dalomanakora

So many people talk about how people with depression should talk to someone and ask for help and reach out.


That doesn't always work though. You reach out to your doctor. Your put on a big waiting list and given a low dose of something to help you cope in the meantime. While you wait, the low dose doesn't help and you still feel numb one day and so sad you think you could actually die from a broken heart the next.


Who do you talk to during your massive wait for treatment? Nobody, because you have no friends and your family don't care. You tell yourself the councillor doesn't care either sure they're being paid to see you once every three months by the HSE.


So you bottle it up. You try to cope. You keep yourself busy and try to block it all out because you have to stay strong, nobody is there for you and you have no meaningful support.


And one day, it gets too much. Maybe someone will stop you, maybe you'll find the balls to go to a and e, or maybe you'll succeed and the thought of ending your pain makes you want to succeed.




Grace7 is so wrong. Those aren't feelings people have all the time. Those are the feelings of someone who can't cope anymore and has no way out.


When you're so utterly alone and lonely, it seems like the only way to freedom.

cbyrd

In my previous job, I knew 7 guys who committed suicide.
All outwardly happy guys. The first was an 18 year old guy .. I cut his hair the night of his debs, he was in at around 7pm with his friend and we had a good laugh. Bit of banter and slagging. Next morning I heard he went home after the debs and went into their barn and hung himself. No explanation or note. Absolutely devastated his father.
Another was in the back garden of his mams house, with his mother and sister .. asked if they wanted tea, went to his fathers study and shot himself, his brother shot himself about ten years later.
A father of 4 young boys, business was booming, shot himself in the wood outside the business.
Another very wealthy man, at the start of the downturn, hung himself.
My cousins husband gassed himself and their 3 year old in the garage of their house.
My own daughter attempted..
I would have known these people very well, generations of their families would have come into our shop.

I had noticed in more recent years, guys are actually more likely to talk about stuff that bothered them, they would talk about business going wrong, marriage troubles, difficulties with kids either having ot not having them. It sometimes became like a confessional. The things you'd hear. Drugs, drink, affairs, pressure.

A friend I went to school with, they lost their eldest daughter to an asthma attack when she was 16. They had her when we were in 3rd year, she was like our class baby. When he came in for the first time after she died, he sat down in the chair and I started cutting, I never said a word, I couldn't, I was devastated for them. He cried silently the whole way through. From then on I was the only one that would cut his hair. We chatted about everything, had good craic when he was in, they had another baby and the day I was leaving the job he came in with flowers, during the haircut he said, " the day I came in after Michelle died, it was a relief that you didn't talk, it was the first time I was quiet, " he told me that the haircuts became more about the chat, the not having to watch what he said or put a front on and pretend he was dealing with it. He had to be strong for his wife and he told me that on many occasions he didn't need a haircut, but needed the chat. He told me I probably saved his life. He had thought over and over in the first year about driving his car into a wall. He even knew which wall. I had no idea.

We never know when simply being with someone can help. I don't honestly think that if someone has the determination to do it that they can be stopped. But if they're wavering .. who knows.

wexie

TheQuietFella wrote: »

There is no cure for depression in my view either through talking or through a bottle of medication. In my experience I had to look at what was affecting me
and deal with it from there. It doesn't leave you but I learned to cope with it a lot better after my circumstances changed.

I think it very much depends on the person and the situation. There certainly is very strong evidence for such a thing as chemical/biological depression ie. something actually not working as it should in the brain. This is the kind of depression that might be treatable with medicines and perhaps hopefully might be actually diagnosed properly. It took me a long time to come to terms with the fact that even though there is plenty talk of chemical imbalances etc. etc. they can't generally be diagnosed with medical science as it stands.

Then there's non biological depression which could have psychological underpinnings and perhaps can be treated with talk therapy and things such as mindfulness, CBT etc. etc.

I think a huge part of the problem is that there are a lot of disorders that have depression as a symptom and as such get diagnosed as 'just' depression, certainly by GP's or not so interested/underresourced/overworked HSE workers. The problem then is that you get sent off with some anti depressants which are never going to do much for you and told to come back in 2 months. (there is a lot of evidence to suggest that when depression is a symptom of an underlying disorder they have very little effect).

Which is why it's such a dangerous thing to say that people should just rely on friends and family. If a GP can't tell someone isn't just depressed but might be suffering from the likes of BPD or bi-polar then what hope would friends and family have?

There is still an awful lot to be learnt about depression (and a lot of other mental health issues) and there certainly seems to be evidence that it manifests itself differently in different cultures. A psychiatrist once told me that in the far east depression tends to manifests in many cases as physical pain.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

mickrock

wexie wrote: »

There certainly is very strong evidence for such a thing as chemical/biological depression ie. something actually not working as it should in the brain. This is the kind of depression that might be treatable with medicines and perhaps hopefully might be actually diagnosed properly.

Actually there is no evidence at all that a chemical imbalance in the brain is the cause of depression.

Antidepressants and other medications have their place in alleviating symptoms of emotional distress but they don't fix the root cause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31PhV2JeUwI

wexie

mickrock wrote: »

Actually there is no evidence at all that a chemical imbalance in the brain is the cause of depression.

Can't watch that now but I will later. If what I said turns out not to be true then apologies. I'm just repeating what's been told to me by more psychiatrists than I'd care to admit to, some of who's opinions I actually respect.

Foxhound38

There's been times when I've thought about it. Thankfully (not the right word but the best I can come up with) it's generally when I've been so depressed I can't even move out of the bed let alone do something terrible. Generally the thoughts aren't long lasting and I'm able to shake them fairly quickly, but they are insidious the way they just sneak up on you.

I haven't had an episode like that in years and a stint on Lexapro and CBT has kept the depression at bay (no serious recurrences for the last few years anyway). I am at a place in my life where I am quite happy in many ways - the idea of dying horrifies me. But I know I need to keep a watch over myself because I'm not immune to suicidal ideation when things get bad.

One eyed Jack

mickrock wrote: »

Actually there is no evidence at all that a chemical imbalance in the brain is the cause of depression.

Well to be fair, to call it a 'chemical imbalance' anyway is just a means to explain it in a rather simplistic way, but there's plenty of evidence to support suggestions that certain types of depression and mood disorders are caused by, and affected by biological and chemical influences -


What causes depression?

Onset of depression more complex than a brain chemical imbalance

Antidepressants and other medications have their place in alleviating symptoms of emotional distress but they don't fix the root cause.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31PhV2JeUwI

They were never intended to "fix" the root cause of either mood disorders, depression or emotional distress, and that's why that doctors argument against psychiatry and the medical model is one that smells suspiciously of snake-oil salesman.

His arguments are fallacious from the outset, and it's easy to see why when he's selectively quoting and adding in his own bits from a medical journal from 2005 (let alone the video itself is from 2012, and his 'upcoming series' of talks never happened afterwards).

There has been a lot of research done and a lot of discoveries made in the last decade since the time when that medical journal was written with the understanding they had about mental health at that time.

WinnyThePoo

Ive had deep depression for long time.

I don't think it's ever going to go away. I went to psychotherapist for half a year recently, but found the sessions directionless.

My experience with HSE has been abysmal . A couple of years ago i was referred to a psychiatrist who then referred me to perhaps most unprofessional human I have ever met. Put me off going to see anybody for a long time. Thankfully that person has plenty of horrible reviews on google. So im not alone in my feelings.

bnt

A friend of mine from school days died unexpectedly about seven years ago; his family never gave out details, but we strongly suspect suicide. He lived in Wales, and I'd been across to see him a few months before he died. He wasn't in the best of spirits since his elderly mother had died a few months prior to that, and he was now living by himself.

He was an extremely smart guy: top of most classes in school, scholarships to university, PhD in Biochemistry, working as a technical author in the pharmaceutical industry in Wales. I think his intelligence was part of the problem, that it's possible to understand your life and situation too clearly, and to feel that you really can't have a substantive conversation about these things with anybody. By "substantive" I mean more than platitudes or a sticky plaster over the cracks, as therapy tends to offer. Some folks are hard to baffle with bullshіt, even if it makes for a happier life.

bnt

bnt wrote: »

A friend of mine from school days died unexpectedly about seven years ago; his family never gave out details, but we strongly suspect suicide. He lived in Wales, and I'd been across to see him a few months before he died. He wasn't in the best of spirits since his elderly mother had died a few months prior to that, and he was now living by himself.

He was an extremely smart guy: top of most classes in school, scholarships to university, PhD in Biochemistry, working as a technical author in the pharmaceutical industry in Wales. I think his intelligence was part of the problem, that it's possible to understand your life and situation too clearly, and to feel that you really can't have a substantive conversation about these things with anybody. By "substantive" I mean more than platitudes or a sticky plaster over the cracks, as therapy tends to offer. Some folks are hard to baffle with bullshіt, even if it makes for a happier life.

I don't agree that therapy offers little more than platitudes and a sticky plaster but the rest of your post makes a lot of sense to me. Some of feel a bit more perhaps, are so aware and reflective that life is a challenge. Playing the game just isn't an option. So instead of closing our eyes to what's really going on we look and dig and question and wonder. I know for myself I'd have a far easier life if I took a traditional path and ignored hurt and pain, put it all in a little box and got on with things.

Graces7

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't agree that therapy offers little more than platitudes and a sticky plaster but the rest of your post makes a lot of sense to me. Some of feel a bit more perhaps, are so aware and reflective that life is a challenge. Playing the game just isn't an option. So instead of closing our eyes to what's really going on we look and dig and question and wonder. I know for myself I'd have a far easier life if I took a traditional path and ignored hurt and pain, put it all in a little box and got on with things.

Agree re the severe limitations of what they call "therapy"

Especially for those of high intelligence.

Not a matter of "playing the game" but of a deep inner response being lacking and being needed. On a deep intellectual level.

And the lack of any deep spiritual counsel or faith. Which is what saved me and gave, and gives , me direction and surety.

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

Agree re the severe limitations of what they call "therapy"

Especially for those of high intelligence.

Not a matter of "playing the game" but of a deep inner response being lacking and being needed. On a deep intellectual level.

And the lack of any deep spiritual counsel or faith. Which is what saved me and gave, and gives , me direction and surety.

There are many forms of therapy and I really do believe that it's possible with the right therapist and connection great change can be made.

I also wonder about spirituality regarding my own life. I am atheist but it's something I can't help in that I can't force myself to believe. It's important for people to have something to hold on to. My dad is in his mid seventies and is fairly devout. I think it gives him great strength.

Once I asked him if he is afraid of dying. He looked at me like I had ten heads. Of course he isn't because he believes in his heart it's not the end. However it is not the way for everyone. Something to hold on to can come in many different ways. I get kind of sad when we fight each other on our beliefs or lack of.

bnt

I didn't mean to come across as quite that harsh about therapy. It's clearly good to talk if talking is what's needed. I might prefer that to any therapy system that tries to tell me that I'm deluded about my reality, or that my thoughts are "wrong".

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

I did CBT once a week for about 8 months and it helped unbelievably. The Therapist was smarter than me and 'got' me. She helped me figure out so much stuff that still serves me well until this day.

Have had other dealings with Therapists as well after that and the experience hasn't really been helpful. Think I got lucky my first time around and struck gold.