Not viable to build affortable apartments?

ZeroThreat

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Again, I'm not so sure.

Personally speaking I have zero interest in city centre living - doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, it never did. Of all the people I know - the vast majority wouldn't like it much either.

Well, that definitely applies to Dublin, the city centre can take on a menacing character at night.

CruelCoin

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If they are sitting on land, and they are paying interest on the loan for the land, then wouldn't they be better off to just develop? The longer they wait, the bigger the interest bills will be.

Land prices are growing faster than the annual interest.
They can wait.

MOH

flaneur wrote: »

Speaking of weird Irish attitudes to apartment dwelling. A friend of mine from continental Europe moved into a pretty big, pleasant apartment in Dublin a couple of years ago.

A teacher at school approached her about 'her living conditions' and whether she needed any extra assistance, you know "coz you live in a flat". She got a talk about how maybe she'd be better to move somewhere with more space what with the kids and all.

She was living in a very spacious, luxury 3-bedroom, spacious apartment with all amenities.

Yeah, people here have weird attitudes towards apartments.
Based on the first slide here we've got by far the lowest rate of apartment dwelling in Europe.

Spanish Eyes

I know the thread is about the viability of developing apartments but discussion moves on sometimes!

How about this for making apartment living a bit more enticing.....

Very good soundproofing.
A balcony on every unit.
A basement with a storage unit for the Christmas Tree, the suitcases and etc.etc.
A basement area with communal washer dryers.
An enclosed playground with seats for the minders.
A reasonable managagement fee.

Do any apartment complexes have all this today?



You see when you buy a house you do not have to pay an annual fee. The amount of it can scare many people off. Because it only goes one way and that's up!

Colonel Claptrap

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Very good soundproofing.
A balcony on every unit.
A basement with a storage unit for the Christmas Tree, the suitcases and etc.etc.
A basement area with communal washer dryers.
An enclosed playground with seats for the minders.
A reasonable managagement fee.

It's those very niceties which the construction industry are blaming for high costs.

Some councils are toying with the idea of forcing plans to include two windowed walls in each unit. Madness.

Eric Cartman

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I know the thread is about the viability of developing apartments but discussion moves on sometimes!

How about this for making apartment living a bit more enticing.....

Very good soundproofing.
A balcony on every unit.
A basement with a storage unit for the Christmas Tree, the suitcases and etc.etc.
A basement area with communal washer dryers.
An enclosed playground with seats for the minders.
A reasonable managagement fee.

Do any apartment complexes have all this today?



You see when you buy a house you do not have to pay an annual fee. The amount of it can scare many people off. Because it only goes one way and that's up!

There is no block of apartments in Ireland with this. I was in an apartment in romania before where the chap who lived there had a drum kit, a full on f*cking drum kit and not a peep could be heard outside , just had it on a vibration mat. We have threads here every week about how water pumps humming is keeping 3-4 apartments residents awake at night.

Pixel Eater

This apartments vs houses debate is ultimately meaningless and won't resolve anything.

So to make apartments more viable what needs to be done? The regulation probably need to be looked at.
The built quality, energy efficiency, fire safety and soundproofing should be strict.
However things like parking spaces, lifts and height could be looked at: in complexes close to city centres could forgo this requirement.
And maybe a higher the lift to unit ratio could be reduced and obviously allow for a few extra stories. Even allow a small number of studio
apartments and flats that aren't dual aspect in a development. All this could cut costs but you'd still end up with proper, decent quality apartments.

Apartments for families and owner occupiers should have stricter building rules than those for renting.

antoinolachtnai

Some of those things could be done, but why compromise on quality for the sake of a few tens of thousands of euros?

I would suggest that the government just pays a completion bonus for apartments completed and occupied before a set date in the future. This could be coupled with some incentive for landowners to unload hoarded land.

LirW

Apartments for families and owner occupiers should have stricter building rules than those for renting.

I just think this is difficult to apply. Once units are built people buy them and do with them whatever they want. They can live in them or rent them out, leave them empty, pretty much everything.
Also I don't think it's the right thing to degrade rental apartments because, well, they are only rented out. Renting in Ireland is still seen as something you wouldn't do on a longer term, but the times changed and many people will never be in the position to buy. It's fairly unattractive to build "lower quality" units for rental purposes.
There needs to be one building regulation and that should ultimately be in the best interest of the occupier.

riclad

The present building regs require good insulation and there should not be a problem with sound proofing ,
if you want loads of storage space buy a house.
i think some people buy apartments cos they are safe ,once you pay service fees things like maintenance ,insurance are taken care of.

some apartments have a room with communal washer/dryers ,
its up to the buyer to choose.
Will i buy here, is there free parking, what are the service fees.
buyer beware.
every apartment block is slightly different.

pwurple

LirW wrote: »

Pardon me, yes, now they are. But demand for rental accommodation is still high. So certainly viable for professional landlords? (Sorry, I know very little about rental I have to admit)

No, sorry you are wrong.

Demand is high because of shortage. It is not feasible for landlords to make any money, yields are far too low, hence yet more shortage.

Rents are capped. You cannot evict tenants for not paying rent (for two years, and even then you don't get the rent back). The taxation on the rent is above 50%, and you have to pay social insurance etc on them.

I have been a landlord for nearly two decades now, so I know something about it. Yields are at an all time low because expenses are ginormous, income is taxed at a cruxifying rate and rent is capped. You can't even write off all the interest from the finance for the place as an expense. I used to be 50/50 residential /commercial. I've gone to 30/70, and am actively considering converting the last few residential I have into commercial and leave residential to the remaining soldiers. No viable income off them, they have become a big pile of hassle. Every other residential landlord I know in Cork city is trying to get out of it, except for the few under the table, black market types. You can't make a living at it legally as far as I can see.

The only way you can increase the rent is to evict your tenant by telling them you want to live in it yourself, leave it idle for 3/4 months, and then re-let it as a new letting. This is the new loophole created.

Every measure the govt has brought in for the last few years has been to penalise landlords out of the residential market, or to force them to pass weird conditions on to tenants. What a surprise, a massive shortage! Fupping morons.


Any flippen d'uh. Of course it's more expensive to build apartments. Land cost is higher, access is more expensive, regulations are stricter, more ammenities are required, it's a more difficult building project, and interest rates are ludicrous for any finance to do it.

pwurple

Eric Cartman wrote: »

There is no block of apartments in Ireland with this. I was in an apartment in romania before where the chap who lived there had a drum kit, a full on f*cking drum kit and not a peep could be heard outside , just had it on a vibration mat. We have threads here every week about how water pumps humming is keeping 3-4 apartments residents awake at night.

I know at two in Cork city with soundproofing.
Classic house on washington street was a former cinema, and has cinema grade soundproofing between floors.

The elysian has soundproofing and a man-made waterfall in the inner acre of gardens to drown out traffic noise.

Romantic Rose

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I get what you mean about the prejudice, but a house is definitely much better for kids. Not exactly a necessity, but certainly very preferable.

A woman I work with was very stressed recently because her daughter was buying an apartment. Her issue was that it was on the ground floor and as such was a beacon for thieves, rapists and murderers. I asked her what floor her house was on and she looked at me like I'd ten heads!

Back to the point however and I just do not believe you can't make a profit building 300k plus "affordable" apartments - that's bullshít plain and simple!

Houses don't have a shared entrance though.

LirW

pwurple wrote: »

No, sorry you are wrong.

...

Thank you very much for clarifying!
Doesn't it make a difference if the landlord is actually a professional company to pay little tax?
I know that you pay 50% because it's classed as some kind of additional income.
How would the whole game be if there wouldn't be a rent cap and how's the situation outside of RPZs? Like in commuter towns around Dublin that aren't classed as RPZ.

sbsquarepants

Romantic Rose wrote: »

Houses don't have a shared entrance though.

I'm not sure what your point is?

There's nothing stopping anyone from walking up to the front door / windows of a house - how is that any different.
I lived for years in a ground floor apartment - anyone could walk up and touch my door / windows should they want to break in for a bit of the auld robbery, rape and murder that's all the rage these days.
I now live in a house - anyone can walk up and touch my doors / windows should they want to do the same.

Pixel Eater

LirW wrote: »

I just think this is difficult to apply. Once units are built people buy them and do with them whatever they want. They can live in them or rent them out, leave them empty, pretty much everything.
Also I don't think it's the right thing to degrade rental apartments because, well, they are only rented out. Renting in Ireland is still seen as something you wouldn't do on a longer term, but the times changed and many people will never be in the position to buy. It's fairly unattractive to build "lower quality" units for rental purposes.
There needs to be one building regulation and that should ultimately be in the best interest of the occupier.

Dublin is littered with tiny vacant sites that would only provide enough space for a single car so, I'm guessing, that with current regulation a developer could only build a single apartment, which would be pointless.

Mature students, post-grad students, recent graduates, young workers, young childless couples, foreign workers on limited contract; there is a whole cohort of people who don't need a car, want to live close to the city and don't need huge apartments.

I'd not advocating returning to the cheap, shoddy flats of the Celtic Tiger era. It's not so much lowering standards as loosening overly restrictive regulations that's stifling building; they would still be well built, energy efficient and relatively spacious by international standards.

LirW

Got what you mean.
Yes it's true, the market isn't well set for singles or childless couples. I've been in a few apartments here in Ireland, one of them was in a complex in Goatstown where a family of 4 lived in (2-bed) and I was shocked of how shoe-boxy this was compared to apartments that you'd find all over Europe.
And that was in an expensive area, when this target group wants something more affordable they most likely have to go to viewings of some grime holes to find something half-decent that's affordable.
When you build small, it's all about the layout really, even a big apartment can appear tiny with a bad layout.

Something funny I came across recently in the news: In Vienna someone advertised sleeping pods, took a small apartment and put 7 of these pods in, one kitchen and a bathroom for all 7 parties and was asking 270 Euros a month per pod. I really hope this won't become the norm over the next decade.
Note, 5 years ago you could manage to find a studio with around 30 sqm for that money (without bills) in one of the outer districs in Vienna.

Pixel Eater

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Dublin is littered with tiny vacant sites that would only provide enough space for a single car so, I'm guessing, that with current regulation a developer could only build a single apartment, which would be pointless.

Mature students, post-grad students, recent graduates, young workers, young childless couples, foreign workers on limited contract; there is a whole cohort of people who don't need a car, want to live close to the city and don't need huge apartments.

I'd not advocating returning to the cheap, shoddy flats of the Celtic Tiger era. It's not so much lowering standards as loosening overly restrictive regulations that's stifling building; they would still be well built, energy efficient and relatively spacious by international standards.

I'd argue the exact opposite, it's lack of parking for example that discourages people from living in apartments. Most households have two cars nowadays and you would be lucky to get one space in many complexs. I know of one complex that is done property which has two parking spaces for every apartment in a vast underground car park.

No doubt there are some standards that's are far too strict that I agree with, certain building regulations are gone beyond a joke.

Pixel Eater

LirW wrote: »

Got what you mean.
Yes it's true, the market isn't well set for singles or childless couples. I've been in a few apartments here in Ireland, one of them was in a complex in Goatstown where a family of 4 lived in (2-bed) and I was shocked of how shoe-boxy this was compared to apartments that you'd find all over Europe.
And that was in an expensive area, when this target group wants something more affordable they most likely have to go to viewings of some grime holes to find something half-decent that's affordable.
When you build small, it's all about the layout really, even a big apartment can appear tiny with a bad layout.

Something funny I came across recently in the news: In Vienna someone advertised sleeping pods, took a small apartment and put 7 of these pods in, one kitchen and a bathroom for all 7 parties and was asking 270 Euros a month per pod. I really hope this won't become the norm over the next decade.
Note, 5 years ago you could manage to find a studio with around 30 sqm for that money (without bills) in one of the outer districs in Vienna.

Also remember that there is thousands of large houses that are occupied by young single randomers; these people could be apartments freeing up these houses for families.

The 'pod' thing is weird: a fancy term for a bedsit but the sounds of it!

Pixel Eater

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Also remember that there is thousands of large houses that are occupied by young single randomers; these people could be apartments freeing up these houses for families.

The 'pod' thing is weird: a fancy term for a bedsit but the sounds of it!

Except they most likely want to live in a large house not an apartment.

Even as if I was living at alone or just as a couple the house I settle down in will be very big as I've no time of small poky houses without enough space for all the things I want in a house or outside it (multiple cars for example).

LirW

I think people are free to rent/buy whatever they want once they can afford it.
But most young people want a smaller place because they use it on the weekends and for sleeping therefore don't want to have a huge maintenance. And this demographic isn't properly catered for, especially when you hear plans yet again for another development of 3-4 bedroom houses.
There are plenty of singles and couples I know that don't want to have kids and are looking for a spacious 2 bedroom apartment for either long-term renting or buying. And this group won't get smaller over the next few years, I'm sure about that.

Pixel Eater

Dalary Freezing Twilight wrote: »

I'd argue the exact opposite, it's lack of parking for example that discourages people from living in apartments. Most households have two cars nowadays and you would be lucky to get one space in many complexs. I know of one complex that is done property which has two parking spaces for every apartment in a vast underground car park.

No doubt there are some standards that's are far too strict that I agree with, certain building regulations are gone beyond a joke.

Most of the households you're referring to would be the suburban housing which are totally car dependent. I'm taking about building apartments close to the city centre for people who don't require a car. Apartments further out designed with families in mind would obviously have parking spaces.

Pixel Eater

Dalary Freezing Twilight wrote: »

Except they most likely want to live in a large house not an apartment.

Even as if I was living at alone or just as a couple the house I settle down in will be very big as I've no time of small poky houses without enough space for all the things I want in a house or outside it (multiple cars for example).

I'd say they want to live wherever they can get, be it a house or apartment but houses are the bulk of accommodation available in Ireland. But I don't think you understand me: I'm advocating building for a demographic that doesn't need all the extra space and parking who would rent there temporarily. The apartments would still be much better and bigger than the crappy Celtic Tiger ones we currently have. We should still build bigger apartments as well.

Pixel Eater

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Most of the households you're referring to would be the suburban housing which are totally car dependent. I'm taking about building apartments close to the city centre for people who don't require a car. Apartments further out designed with families in mind would obviously have parking spaces.

Even of the people living in the city centre many need cars. They may travel home at weekends, need it for shopping, heading to retail parks, going to things in the evenings etc etc etc.

LirW

Dalary Freezing Twilight wrote: »

Even of the people living in the city centre many need cars. They may travel home at weekends, need it for shopping, heading to retail parks, going to things in the evenings etc etc etc.

That's one of the things to consider when you move into an apartment, that's the same in every other city. There are parking arrangements like permanent permits for the Zone you're living in. Dublin is a city with exceptionally lousy public transport but in many cities people don't need cars because PT serves them very well. In high density areas in cities it's not mandatory to provide parking spaces. You can leave it up to the people to decide if they wanna live there and can make their own arrangements, they are very well capable of it.
When you build apartment blocks and developments a bit further away from the immediate city centre plenty have underground parking.

Lumen

Romantic Rose wrote: »

My friend lived in that apartment block in Christchurch where the guy unlawfully gained access to the apartment block and hid under the stairway waiting for someone to attack.

Why would someone attack him for crouching under the stairs? :pac:

Seriously, was he waiting to attack someone, or did he just want their stuff? Only insane people randomly assault strangers.

I live in a semi-rural place, houses on 1 acre plots. In this place it is not uncommon for thefts to happen whereby the thief hides in the driveway and then pops out and demands the car keys. So people add gates and thorny hedges, and then the thieves just hop over those barriers and get a bit more privacy.

Honestly, wherever you are you can find reasons to be afraid. I personally find comfort amongst strangers in urban/suburban places, but that's cos I was raised in an urban environment.

mel123

The key to drawing people to apartment living is space, and this is where we fell down in Ireland IMO. Ive been in apartments from customs house to portmarnock, and they are all shoe boxes. If we want people to be drawn to apartment living, there has to be space. You dont have to be childless to live in an apartment for life. Ive got family living in Europe where apartment living is the norm, 2/3 bed apartments. All of their apartments have served them for the entirety of their lives to date, and their children have well flown the nest now. Bedrooms and living areas were all big. Here in Ireland a two bed apartment can barely be called a two bed cause the second room is a shoe box most of the time, barely fitting a double bed if at all. Is it viable to build these? Absolutely if our greedy government cut down costs to builders, even for a window of a few years.

Cuddlesworth

mel123 wrote: »

The key to drawing people to apartment living is space, and this is where we fell down in Ireland IMO. Ive been in apartments from customs house to portmarnock, and they are all shoe boxes. If we want people to be drawn to apartment living, there has to be space. You dont have to be childless to live in an apartment for life. Ive got family living in Europe where apartment living is the norm, 2/3 bed apartments. All of their apartments have served them for the entirety of their lives to date, and their children have well flown the nest now. Bedrooms and living areas were all big. Here in Ireland a two bed apartment can barely be called a two bed cause the second room is a shoe box most of the time, barely fitting a double bed if at all. Is it viable to build these? Absolutely if our greedy government cut down costs to builders, even for a window of a few years.

Old standards in Dublin City were 55sm for a 1 bed, 90sm for a 2 bed and 100sm for a 3 bed.

When you take away the stairs, your left with a lot of space in comparison to most houses.

The issue with apartments is storage space. No sheds, garages, attics into which long term storage items or large daily items(bikes) could go into.

Pixel Eater

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1006/910173-housing-working-group/

Some common sense at last. Requiring every unit to have a parking spot only served as another obstacle to prevent building. Some city centre sites simply couldn't be developed due to this demand. And allowing increased building heights can only be a good thing too.


And while I'm at it; this proposal from Fianna Fail to open up spaces above shops and other commercial buildings. While it's a welcome development I just wonder why it needs the Government to sanction it, surely it should be the Council's job?

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1003/909294-fianna-fail/

Markcheese

Pixel Eater wrote:

And while I'm at it; this proposal from Fianna Fail to open up spaces above shops and other commercial buildings. While it's a welcome development I just wonder why it needs the Government to sanction it, surely it should be the Council's job?

Yeah, it could be a county council job... But it's probably got more weight coming from central government.. I'd be interested in how they'll do it, bring in the fire officer, the esb, building standards, security and high commercial property values/shop frontage it'll be a nightmare.... Doesn't meant shouldn't be done though..