Apple data centre Athenry is turning into a potential big missed opportunity for IRL

Impetus

Apple/gov.ie clearly hasn’t learned from the pain and €€€ that Shell & Co has had to go through to get Corrib gas flowing. They seem to have made zero progress on the Athenry data centre. Meanwhile the Apple Danish centre, work on which commenced on the same day as the Athenry centre is up and running. While tourism is important to the West of Ireland, and one can understand the reluctance to install massive data centres with their grid pylons etc, and Cork has its share of tourists, few if any tourist to Ireland visits Bottle Hill just outside Cork city. The location of city ‘dump’ that could be converting waste into electricity replacing much of the material that is being needlessly landfilled.


The Cork landfill at Bottle Hill is close to the power grid, and located in a sparsely populated area of the countryside, surrounded by trees. The waste could be directed into a waste to energy recycling plant to help power the data centre. Cork has the lowest latency, highest capacity direct fibre optic links to the US and Britain, and will probably by next year have a direct high capacity fibre route to France. The city has no shortage of capacity / routes to Dublin and other cities to make other data centres and the national telecommunications infrastructure more resilient globally.


Meanwhile Dublin will be electric power constrained by 2020 (not to mention water constrained – water is needed not only for housing, business etc – but also for power generation). There are anti-pylon lobbies all over the country to prevent the transport of power to Dublin or anywhere else in the country.
Cork has 53Tbps capacity, and around 50ms latency on its route to the US. The Cork France Cable 1 (IFC-1) will have up to 47Tbps on each pair of fibers. With Brexit around the corner, Ireland will have no non-Brexit route to the rest of Europe, and there will be GDPR issues with any platform that carries data outside of the EU. Monaco has direct fiber connections to Asia, via India, and it would be a simple matter to run a link from IFC-1 via France to Monaco and onwards to Asia.


More than two birds could be killed by one stone in this project, by building the fiber into a HVDC electric power connection of perhaps 1 GW. Combining power and fiber optic data in one pipe has been done in several countries – allowing the cost to be shared by both applications. This would allow Ireland to exchange power with mainland Europe directly, and where there are no currency risks on the power settlement – because all sides use the EUR. As opposed to grid connections to GB where a fall in Sterling can change the economics of a power tie-up.


Britain has a growing number of offshore wind farms, which cost the country far less than nuclear. GB is paying over GBP 90 per MW/h to a French company for a nuclear power plant (Hinckley Point C). Meanwhile they can buy offshore wind capacity from the private sector for about GBP 57 per MWh. And the cost of wind (and PV power) is dropping rapidly. Given the nature of wind, it blows far more continuously at sea than it does on land. While most farms in GB are a mixed bunch in terms of total power output, the newer technology plants being created are in the 500 to 600 MW range – which is the size of a good conventional power station.



https://en.wikipedia.org
/wiki/List_of_offshore_wind_farms_in_the_United_Kingdom

Successive Irish governments have lacked joined up thinking the area of energy and telecommunications exports – which would make use of the country’s location in terms of climate and being on the Great Circle route – minimising latency time and length of fibre runs. One regrets to say that the amount of work done on projects of this nature has been alarming in its modesty, so far.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/groundhog-day-in-athenry-as-apple-s-850m-data-centre-stalls-1.3221250

oscarBravo

Impetus wrote: »

Cork has the lowest latency, highest capacity direct fibre optic links to the US...

Nope. That would be Killala in north Mayo.

...and Britain...

I'm pretty sure Dublin has lower latency and higher capacity to Britain.

Impetus

oscarBravo wrote: »

Nope. That would be Killala in north Mayo. I'm pretty sure Dublin has lower latency and higher capacity to Britain.

You are missing the point. We are talking country/network resilience and spreading the load on water and power infrastructure across the place.

There is redundant power transmission/generation capacity in Cork. There is not in Dublin - it needs every kW/h and m3 of water for natural growth of the city. The public seem to be blind to how close the city (Dublin) is to blackouts and water shortages.

I suspect that the residents of Killala don't want monster data centres and the related pylons to damage their countryside's natural beauty. No more than the people in West Cork or Kinsale would. Or Athenry.

While there is much wrong with France, it has excellent public planning. Corridors were allocated for electric pylons, autoroutes and LGVs (TGV train lines) decades ago. Leaving the rest of the country without the 'pollution'. For example when we move to mass EV mobility, there will be no problem installing 500 or so high amp charging stations in an autoroute service area, because the power will be nearby and so will the number of ha required for charge parking. Ireland has a few motorway service areas, none of which are online - ie you have to time-wastingly leave the motorway in Ireland to get fuel or food etc. They stations are all tiny, and usually crowded with people and cars (tanking up with an obsolete source of energy in planning terms).

Ireland needs intelligent big picture planning, rather than village argument. Kinsale gas came ashore in Ireland without a whimper and there have been no explosions or other accidents over its life. Wake up and smell the coffee. Over time energy exports and telecommunications services exports could add perhaps 10 bn € pa to the economy. Unlike oil or gas, on a renewable basis.

oscarBravo

Impetus wrote: »

I suspect that the residents of Killala don't want monster data centres and the related pylons to damage their countryside's natural beauty.

You clearly haven't been to Killala recently. There's a vast vacant building - the former Asahi factory - just inland from the cable landing station, and there's one power generation station on the site, with another planned.

No more than the people in West Cork or Kinsale would. Or Athenry.

The Apple site in Athenry is in a commercial forest, hidden from public view. It's adjacent to the Cashla node on the national grid, with multiple 200kV lines already in place.

I don't disagree with the wider point about us being crap at planning, but the residents of Athenry for the most part want this to go ahead. One of the objectors is someone who wanted to build a data centre in Wicklow but was denied permission.

Impetus

oscarBravo wrote: »

You clearly haven't been to Killala recently. There's a vast vacant building - the former Asahi factory - just inland from the cable landing station, and there's one power generation station on the site, with another planned. The Apple site in Athenry is in a commercial forest, hidden from public view. It's adjacent to the Cashla node on the national grid, with multiple 200kV lines already in place.

I don't disagree with the wider point about us being crap at planning, but the residents of Athenry for the most part want this to go ahead. One of the objectors is someone who wanted to build a data centre in Wicklow but was denied permission.

If the vacant building and energy resources are suitable - go ahead and do the job. Assuming it has access to renewable energy, which should be possible via the grid. And route the multiple fiber pipes up to the location. Off you go. I have no problem with that. It is the lack of progress in Ireland that maddens me. There is no shortage of land (low population density) yet there is a massive housing shortage. And it keeps going on and on. And prices go up and up. The system is so pig inefficient.

If I went to the authorities in Canton Zug on Monday and asked for permission (I am not Swiss) to set up an electric energy trading system for Europe, based in Zug - I am sure I would have the project up and running within a month. No public protest at me "manipulating" energy flows - Switzerland is a major hub in Europe connecting the German, French, Italian and Austrian electricity grids. Switzerland supplies about 2 GW of energy to Italy, because Italy does not have enough power generation capacity. My goal would simply be to supply the cheapest energy at the moment to my customer wherever they reside. The need for this service will grow as the use of renewables grow. And all it requires is a grid connection to/within mainland Europe which Ireland does not have. The VAT on all my kit would be just 8% (the highest rate in Switzerland). My Swiss income tax rate would not be subsidizing multi-nationals as every Irish tax payer is doing in facilitating multi-nationals - many of whom, one reads, do not even pay the standard 12.5% CIT.

Impetus

oscarBravo wrote: »

You clearly haven't been to Killala recently. There's a vast vacant building - the former Asahi factory - just inland from the cable landing station, and there's one power generation station on the site, with another planned. The Apple site in Athenry is in a commercial forest, hidden from public view. It's adjacent to the Cashla node on the national grid, with multiple 200kV lines already in place.

I don't disagree with the wider point about us being crap at planning, but the residents of Athenry for the most part want this to go ahead. One of the objectors is someone who wanted to build a data centre in Wicklow but was denied permission.

Additional comments:

1. The power generation stations don't count - unless they are renewable. No new data centre developer will want to use 19th century polluting technology.

2. If the residents of Athenry want the project - why is somebody who presumably does not live near the proposed site, objecting? Smells like vested interest. Wicklow is in the same energy/water constrained zone as Dublin. While one can run so many operations with 4.5 million people, a country will need to embrace automation/AI to justify a larger share of the value added for a product/service. They (EU) are trying to turn corporate income tax into a VAT v II. Which is at variance with accounting and legal logic.

Doing nothing/deferring, which is the way Ireland AG operates in most cases, will get the country nowhere in the short, medium and long-term.

Dublin, Cork and other cities have large landfills which could provide abundant recycled energy for projects such as data centres (given the irrational hesitation of people to live next to these things and use the hot and cold water they could generate). The larger waste water treatment plants could also generate energy, as they do in Spanish and other cities.

The delay is bad for Ireland AG and its reputation. The less work that is done in Ireland by a multi-national, the more it stands to lose from the common consolidated corporate tax base, should such an artificial animal arise.

recedite

Impetus wrote: »

2. If the residents of Athenry want the project - why is somebody who presumably does not live near the proposed site, objecting? Smells like vested interest. Wicklow is in the same energy/water constrained zone as Dublin.

The residents of Kilpedder in Wicklow wanted their data centre too, but it was denied by ABP on the basis of environmental and transport concerns which IMO were spurious. Kilpedder is a half hour drive from the GPO (outside rush hours) and there is a bus to Dublin city centre and on to the airport, and also bus to the Dart station in Bray. The area also has plenty of water and potential for extra wind power in the nearby mountains. Plus existing wind power from the Arklow bank wind farm at sea.
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklowpeople/news/an-bord-pleanala-rejects-data-centre-plan-27860760.html

So it is galling to see ABP approve a similar project in a place that is more environmentally sensitive and has worse transport links.
Personally I'd like to see both go ahead without a hitch (though not sure if the market for data storage is big enough), but I can see why Wicklow people would be pi$$ed off if Athenry gets preferential treatment.

Impetus

recedite wrote: »

The residents of Kilpedder in Wicklow wanted their data centre too, but it was denied by ABP on the basis of environmental and transport concerns which IMO were spurious. Kilpedder is a half hour drive from the GPO (outside rush hours) and there is a bus to Dublin city centre and on to the airport, and also bus to the Dart station in Bray. The area also has plenty of water and potential for extra wind power in the nearby mountains. Plus existing wind power from the Arklow bank wind farm at sea.
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklowpeople/news/an-bord-pleanala-rejects-data-centre-plan-27860760.html

So it is galling to see ABP approve a similar project in a place that is more environmentally sensitive and has worse transport links.
Personally I'd like to see both go ahead without a hitch (though not sure if the market for data storage is big enough), but I can see why Wicklow people would be pi$$ed off if Athenry gets preferential treatment.

I think I would want to cluster my data centres in a single locality if I was Apple to avoid technical staff duplication. The only reason to separate them physically over large distances is for redundancy.

recedite

Impetus wrote: »

I think I would want to cluster my data centres in a single locality if I was Apple to avoid technical staff duplication. The only reason to separate them physically over large distances is for redundancy.

If that is the case, then it is a zero sum game, and either Athenry wins all, or Kilpedder wins all. One would hope that ABP would be completely impartial in all this.

jmayo

Impetus wrote: »

Apple/gov.ie clearly hasn’t learned from the pain and €€€ that Shell & Co has had to go through to get Corrib gas flowing.

Actually there were very valid safety concerns regarding the Corrib Gas installation and especially the initial siting of the pipeline.

The initial pipeline was quiet close to some homes and farms and it was pumping raw natural gas at very high pressures.

BTW the last week shows exactly what these people along the pipeline were facing when unodourised gas made it into the system and users in Mayo and Galway were told to disconnect from that system as there was no way they could discern if there was a gas leak.

Yet the people around the pipeline in Mayo were thrown in jail for challenging untreated undourised gas at very high pressures going past their homes.

recedite wrote: »

The residents of Kilpedder in Wicklow wanted their data centre too, but it was denied by ABP on the basis of environmental and transport concerns which IMO were spurious. Kilpedder is a half hour drive from the GPO (outside rush hours) and there is a bus to Dublin city centre and on to the airport, and also bus to the Dart station in Bray.

I have to say you must be Michael Schumacher reincarnated to be able to get from Kilpedder to GPO in 30 minutes even outside rush hour.

Data centres are not high employment so public transport will never be a consideration.

recedite wrote: »

The area also has plenty of water and potential for extra wind power in the nearby mountains. Plus existing wind power from the Arklow bank wind farm at sea.
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklowpeople/news/an-bord-pleanala-rejects-data-centre-plan-27860760.html

I can't ever see planning for a wind farm in Wicklow mountains.
Hell good luck with planning for wind farm on Mountkennedy or Dunran Hill which would be pretty close to Kilpedder.
BTW if you are based in Wicklow take at look at levels in Varty Reservoir over last couple of months. The upper reservoir has been drying out. That is a massive problem for Wicklow/South Dublin in the near future.

recedite wrote: »

So it is galling to see ABP approve a similar project in a place that is more environmentally sensitive and has worse transport links.
Personally I'd like to see both go ahead without a hitch (though not sure if the market for data storage is big enough), but I can see why Wicklow people would be pi$$ed off if Athenry gets preferential treatment.

Wicklow planning is a fooking nightmare and that puts people off, fullstop.

knipex

Impetus wrote: »

The VAT on all my kit would be just 8% (the highest rate in Switzerland).

If you were a business in Ireland you would have a VAT number meaning you could claim back the VAT or if you were importing not pay any VAT.

Impetus wrote: »

My Swiss income tax rate would not be subsidizing multi-nationals as every Irish tax payer is doing in facilitating multi-nationals - many of whom, one reads, do not even pay the standard 12.5% CIT.

How much of my income tax goes to subsidize multinationals and how ??

if you based your business in Ireland you could pay the 12.5% corporation tax (with same deductions) also..

By the way, depending on location in Switzerland the corporation tax is between 11% and 22% so potentially you could pay less than Ireland..

recedite

jmayo wrote: »

Wicklow planning is a fooking nightmare and that puts people off, fullstop.

You can't blame them for this though. ABP stopped it, unjustly apparently, and then it went to a judicial review to the Supreme Court, which AFAIK overturned ABP. All that took years, so I'm not sure what happened in the end, or maybe its not over yet.
Similarly you can't blame Galway CC for what's (not) happening in Athenry.

jmayo wrote: »

I can't ever see planning for a wind farm in Wicklow mountains.

Well regardless of the planning, the potential is there. Turlough Hill was a visionary project IMO, but you would have difficulty nowadays with ABP for something similar.
One of the major problems for wind farms is getting permission from ESB networks to connect to the grid. That is largely due to a "demand side" oversupply problem when wind power is at its max, but when they roll out smart meters consumers will smooth that out because they will get cheaper rates at those times. Electric car charging will also suck up a lot of that off-peak wind power, so even though wind power is a bit stagnant now, the future is bright.

jmayo wrote: »

I have to say you must be Michael Schumacher reincarnated to be able to get from Kilpedder to GPO in 30 minutes even outside rush hour..

Its only around 30Km, and most of it motorway or dual carriageway. No traffic lights except in the city.

BTW if you are based in Wicklow take at look at levels in Vartry Reservoir over last couple of months. The upper reservoir has been drying out. That is a massive problem for Wicklow/South Dublin in the near future.

Yes, its been low for about 18 months. South Dublin was saved by a wet summer this year, but their luck will run out sooner or later.
There was a thread touching on it.